By David Futrelle
So I wrote up a nice long post tonight, filled with inadvertently hilarious if also somewhat disturbing tweets from a variety of far-right trolls, but for some reason Twitter doesn’t seem to be embedding tweets properly right now, at least on WordPress.
In the meantime, please make do with these thoughts on “front holes” — a.k.a. women — from a Men Going His Own way on Reddit.
Huh. I thought the standard timetable for young women today — at least according to the He Man Woman-Hater’s club of the manosphere — was cock-carousel-riding until age 30 or so, followed by the desperate search for a beta to glom onto in the early 30s. Now they have to get a ring on some poor beta by the time they graduate from college? At age 25?
Misogyny can be so confusing!
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Rape and then marry, I should add, since the guy specifically mentions that the woman is to “secure” a male partner, indicating that he believes that women only offer sex in exchange for (financial) security.
Which is in contradiction to his stated aim of Going His Own Way, since in that case he should be advocating for the exact opposite (i.e. for women to stay as far away from any men as possible). But clearly we’re not dealing with the sharpest rock in the box.
No question of that, but the most common statements I have seen being bandied about are specifically:
In reference to AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, and
In reference to forced removal of Palestinians by the IDF.
Are those statements problematic? Yeah, kinda. But it must be said that she has offered apologies for both of these. And that her criticisms are valid.
Then why the fuck are you bringing them up even though Trump is in the midst of a stochastic terrorism campaign against her?
Why is it the every time a woman is having a harassment campaign set against her, some guy has to jump in with a “harassment is wrong, but X woman had X flaws”
The fuck is your point?
I mean, you’re basically implying that she was asking for it.
Show me where I said that she deserves to be on the receiving end of death threats.
Can I rightly point out that she has made problematic statements in the past, and that they are a kernel of truth in this entire shitty edifice that the right has erected against her? Or do I have to wait for the “right time” to debate this, to avoid politicizing this issue at the present time?
I don’t follow American politics; the last I heard of Omar was in relation to “go back to where they came from”. After which she was greeted with a rousing welcome by supporters upon her return. Is she in more danger than usual?
“Front-hole” reminds me of “front bottom”, a term used by the kind of prissy child who thinks that using the real grown-up names for body parts represents some unconscionable breach of decorum. Grow up, man-child.
Re: Ilhan Omar and antisemitism
I do not believe that criticism of Israel is antisemitism. I am Jewish and have roundly criticized the current Israeli government and many of its policies. I am horrified by the way Netanyahu and co treat Palestinians, as well as other aspects of his foreign policy.
However, I think that criticism of Israel that uses stereotypes of Jews is antisemitic, such as the comment about money, or another comment Omar made that suggests that Jews are more loyal to Israel than America. The major differences between Omar’s foray into antisemitism and the GOP’s obsession are:
a. Nothing Omar said is anywhere near as antisemitic as what various Republicans (both politicians and civilians) have said
b. Omar has apologized for her remarks multiple times, yet Republicans never apologize for any of the racist, sexist, antisemitic, homophobic, or otherwise awful things they say, then try to call Omar antisemitic. This is a pretty transparent case of the pot calling the kettle black.
@WWTH
I am not implying that Omar was asking for harassment. I believe it is possible to criticize someone without claiming that they deserve harassment, and here I am offering a criticism but also defending the same individual. The same person can be both praised and criticized, and that is what I am doing here.
TL;DR: I think Ilhan Omar has said antisemitic things in the past, but this in no way excuses the harassment she has faced and this is in no way an attack on her or a validation of her harassers.
Not while the fucking president is trying to get her killed through his dogwhistles, no.
Yes, please, that would be great. Especially since it wasn’t relevant to the discussion at hand.
Then why do you need to point out this woman’s flaws, which she already apologized for, when you’re not even aware of the extreme danger she’s in right now? PEOPLE WERE CHANTING AT A HATE RALLY, FFS.
FWIW, I read Ariblester as identifying the source of the claims of anti-Semetism, not saying those quotes deserved the racist response.
It’s worthwhile to note because RW is perfectly capable of getting this upset over absolutely nothing. There is value in knowing whether the correct response is “Didn’t happen” or “You are misinterpreting.” Not that any of this will change the RW mind, but online there are always lurkers at various degrees of knowing what’s going on.
Of course, none of this creates an obligation to engage. It’s more of “if you want to engage, here are more effective ways to do it.” I do tend to engage, but I absolutely recognize that as a cis, het, married man, I face much less downside and others weighing the choice will come out differently.
As Nalfagar notes, nothing she has done rises to the level of anti-Semitism regularly on offer from the GOP and she has been open to criticism of her invocations of prejudice, which is not a feature notable in the GOP.
As usual, Dave has no idea what he is talking about. MGTOW, along with the Men’s Rights Movement, are very justified in their positions. It is feminism that is illegitimate and dangerous. It is brave men who stood up to these feminist monsters and for that these men are heroes.
Very sincerely,
Masculist Man-Masculist/Men’s Rights Activist and Man Going His Own Way
BTW, the pet store is having a sale on cats but only if you buy in bulk which I’m sure you will. So while you are renewing your restraining orders against Dave you can go buy 50 cats at a time.
Glad so many people in here are very fair to the people trying to get Ohmar killed by conceding that they do have a point, actually.
I was pretty sure that no one would miss the fact that I’m sarcastically quoting the same talking point the right wing dribbles out whenever their precious goddamn guns are threatened.
It’s not relevant to the discussion at hand to point out, as a response to @WWTH’s post, that “hey, so while QAnon and Pizzagate are towering heaps of bullshit upon bullshit, Ilhan Omar has actually made some problematic remarks regarding Israel, that she has already apologized for, and acknowledging that in no way validates other claims made about her, much less any attempts on her life?”
Do you honestly think that this mild, heavily qualified critique of a person is going to be the deciding factor in whether some dipshit finally decides to roll the dice?
It comes off like you are ‘splaining the origins of president’s attacks, and that he (or, probably more correctly, Faux News) has some justification for harassing her. Don’t.
First of all, anyone remotely familiar with the trump shit show knows where he got his distortions from….but, more importantly, the power differential between a newbie congresswoman and the leader of the free world is so vastly unbalanced that nothing justifies his attacks.
Omar could have said the shittiest thing a human being has ever uttered and that still wouldn’t justify the attacks, and encouragement to attack her physically. That stem from Trumps demented tweets.
NO THEY FUCKING DO NOT HAVE A POINT. Is that clear enough for you?
@WWTH:
Absolutely. And I’m also concerned about what this says about the future of progressive politics in the US. The only way to move the needle in the long run is to get more progressive candidates into the pipeline leading to congress. But those people will be looking at this situation and asking themselves: do I really want to put myself and my family through this? Frequent death threats, and fearing for my life every time I’m in public? And undoubtedly some of them will decide no, I can’t do it, maybe I’ll just campaign for an existing candidate instead.
Trump attacked her country of birth, and that she was (shock!) discharging her duties as a Congressperson by (gasp!) debating legislation and questioning policies. That was motivated entirely by xenophobia and pettiness (not surprising). He didn’t say a word on her comments about Israel. If I’m ‘splaining, I’m doing a fucking terrible job at it.
NO THEY DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING POINT IN HARASSING A SITTING CONGRESSPERSON OR MAKING THREATS ON HER LIFE. Just wanted to make it unambiguously clear where I stand.
If anything, age makes me pickier with what I spend my time on. Same reason I don’t watch every new show or let people talk to me on my lunch break. I have better things to do and an ever diminishing amount of time to do it. Ad-blocker that shit.
I’ve just looked over all my posts again, and I’d like to apologize.
Firstly, to @WWTH, for entirely missing the point of their original post, which was that they feared for the safety of Ilhan Omar, and then derailing the discussion from the get-go.
Secondly, I’m sorry for making (derailing) comments that could be interpreted as giving cover to right-wing terrorists, or interpreted as condoning their claimed motivations. I acknowledge that their continued presence in American politics has a strong deterrent effect on potential progressive representatives. I unequivocally do not stand with the terrorists.
Thirdly, I am sorry for stubbornly defending my derailment, and consequently holding up the entire discussion.
I guess if cis women are “front holes” then cis men are “crotch lobes”.
That is, instead of being defined by a culturally significant body orifice located anterior to anus, we’re defined by a culturally significant group of body extremities located posterior to breasts.
If you think about it, everyone’s face has three front holes (or more, depending on whether you count pores and piercings).
Time to start referring to manospherians as “logic holes”. If rational arguments were cheese, these guys would be slices of Swiss run over repeatedly with a spike aerator.
Considering what many authoritarian puritans get up to behind closed doors, yes. But they’re another group not noted for practicing what they preach.
@WWTH
I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that’s the influence of Facebook. It has a nasty habit of luring in the gullible and trusting, then their family members say “Oh, if Aunt Cathy said it, then it must be legit!” Then it becomes an identifier and they start carving out in-group, out-group dynamics and soon “We’re a Q-Anon family!”
@Buttercup – and depending on ear placement, belly button depth, and whether you have those kinds of tear ducts that are open to the sinus cavity, a piercing-free person may have upwards of 10 holes that could be considered on the front.
Re: Ilhan Omar and what I said earlier
I am sorry if what I said came off as “very fair to the people who are trying to get Omar killed.” My comment was meant to completely condemn her harassers and dispel notions that she is an antisemite. I do not believe she is an antisemite, and I tried to make it clear that she apologized and that I (and almost all of the Jews I know) accept her apology and do not view her as antisemitic. I also did not mean to come off as ‘splaining in any way. I am simply sharing my opinion and perspective on this issue. If any of my responses seemed overly aggressive towards Omar or seemed to be defensive of her attackers, I am sorry. This was not my intent.
Thanks for the apologies, and thanks Kupo for backing me up. I was,at work and couldn’t continue the conversation.
The reason I got so upset is, this happens a lot when women, and in particular women of color are targeted for harassment.
People swoop in and bring up the targets flaws or mistakes. Or the ever popular, I don’t like ___ but the harassment is not cool.
Instead of discussing the fact that Qanon conspiracies are increasingly normalized and instead of discussing the hate campaign, we’re discussing things that Omar may have said wrong in the past. Even if harassment and hate apologia is not intended, that’s how it comes across because it detailed the conversation into critiques of the person who is being targeted mainly because she is female, black, Muslim, and an immigrant.
I’m really kind of baffled that this has to be explained in a space like this.
Also kind of irritated on a personal level, because I wanted to discuss my anxieties about the worst of online culture spilling out into the “real” world and wanted to see if other people noticed the same thing. And now I guess that conversation isn’t going to happen because instead we have to discuss whether or not Ilhan Omar is a pristine enough victim for everyone’s satisfaction. Something I might expect on Twitter or at a family gathering, but not something I expected from Mammotheers.
@Naglfar
My comment was not directed at you. I apologize for not making it clear that it was directed at Ariblester and TimS.
@Ariblester
Thanks for the apology. I know it’s hard to 9wn up to mistakes.
@WWTH
Anytime.
So let’s talk about that. I’m getting pretty upset by it, too. I’ve noticed people using “incel” as an insult, but they mean “virgin who lives in mom’s basement” and that’s a pretty fucking awful thing to insult someone for. I’ve noticed that people here in Seattle hate on Congresswoman Sawant a lot because she’s trying to make the city better. Most of them loved her $15 minimum wage, though some bellyached about how it would raise prices (it didn’t) or how EMTs make barely more than that (other wages went up). But now because of internet hate campaigns against her, due in large part to Bezos’ refusal to pay taxes, everyone is out to get her. And I can’t help but notice they target her, specifically and she happens to be brown and a woman. It feels like it’s getting worse and I’m seriously terrified.