By David Futrelle
So yesterday, I was poking around in the Braincels subreddit, Reddit’s main hangout for incels, and was struck by how often the regulars there discuss trans women.
Some incels like to fantasize about solving their particular difficulty — their “involuntary” celibacy — by hooking up with “traps” (their favorite transphobic term for young trans hotties). But most of the time they’re as straightfowardly hateful towards trans women as any TERF (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist).
Indeed, I was struck by how remarkably similar incels and TERFs sound when they talk about trans women (both generally ignore trans men). So much so that I decided to make this quiz.
[os-widget path=”/davidfutrelle/who-said-it-incel-or-terf”]
I don’t know about you, but I found these very hard to distinguish from one another, to the point that I had to check and doublecheck each quote to make sure which subreddit it came from, even though I was the one choosing the quotes.
So what does this mean? Partly, the quotes sound similar because, well, this is what transphobic hate sounds like. But in other cases it seems as though the incels have picked up certain TERF talking points from reading, or reading about, TERFs.
If you consider yourself a feminist, but your thoughts on trans women are virtually identical to the raging misogynists and ignorant anti-feminists who make up the incel movement, well, maybe you’re not as much of a feminist as you think.
Sources for quotes: Question 1: GenderCritical, Braincels. Question 2: GC, Braincels. Question 3: Braincels, GC. Question 4: Braincels, GC.
H/T — Reddit’s Advanced Search
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Caltrops confound TERFish cantrips!
@Scanisaurus
Catalpa covered it nicely – again.
You’re feeling like hell, so you go to the doctor. She says “You’re sick.”
Not terribly useful, that, is it? Better to get the correct diagnosis.
Now, if someone is going to be “put off feminism” because of the term TERF – well, they weren’t over likely to be feminist anyways.
You’ve got some serious shades of “Libruls were mean to me so I became a Nazi” going on there – something we’ve mocked at great length.
@Rhuu I saw people talking generally about gatekeeping, so I gave my two cents on why it happens. My post isn’t directed at anyone in particular.
Ok, for some reason none of my comments are showing up. I’m sure it’s user error, this is a test.
Hopefully I haven’t fucked up and been banned.
Ok, now this one has. Not sure what was wrong with the others, but it’s probably better I didn’t get to say what I tried to.
In regards to everyone’s replies;
No, I don’t think any one word at any one time will radically change anyone’s opinion, but one of my friends did admit to me once that he watched a lot of Sargon of Akkad’s videos, and he felt feminism had gone too far, but instead of just using a quick label on him and break off our friendship forever I sent him links to Contrapoints videos, and he actually was willing to listen when he saw good arguments laid forth against what he’d heard of feminism from Sargon, and willing to admit Sargon was wrong, and I’ve heard many similar stories from others both online and irl. I’m not saying this will work on bigots already entrenched in their beliefs, but people on the fence do exist.
If you want to disagree, feel free to say so, but I will not accept anyone insinuating I’m some kind of dishonest troll just because I’ve said something you disagree with. I’ve never said I agreed to anything the transphobes said or did, and I won’t start to defend any of their words either.
I’m only trying to say what I’ve come to believe based on what I’ve seen myself, if you want to use such terms I won’t stop you, but I will not use them. All I ask is that you don’t bring up any right-wing troll implications just because I don’t agree with everyone on everything. I’ve tried expressing myself as politely as I can and I hope you can return the favor.
Snowberry – as a gay man who’s been out over forty years, I’ve seen more of that than I care to think about. Drawing circles to keep ‘them’ out and ‘us’ in is a dreadful waste of time and effort.
I spend more time on Reddit than is good for me, and I’ve noticed that the two places where trans folk bashing is most visible are ‘gender critical’ subs and the Jordan Peterson fan club. That says a lot about both that neither would like to hear.
One positive note: the Sinfest Reddit (which is not under the artist’s control) has featured parodies of recent strips and reruns of old ones.
we’re talking about terminology, not gatekeeping, though?
@Scanisaurus
What do you hope to gain from this conversation? This is a sincere question.
@kupo
I just wanted to share my thoughts on terms I felt would do more harm than good to any conversation, I didn’t want to start a big argument.
The thing I don’t get is why some people here still make comments insinuating I’m arguing in bad faith even when I’ve explicitly stated otherwise, and I have participated in the comments on this blog for months, it’s not like I’m intentionally only showing up to be contrarian.
@Scansaurus: I do think you are here in good faith, however, your posts regarding sex workers come off as tone policing and concern trolling. Also, regarding your views on this, it is a little… interesting that you have a problem with the particular terms involved in this conversation.
@Scanisaurus
You’ve said your piece, then. You’re neither going to persuade people to stop using TERF nor persuade people you’re unproblematic. Just stop.
Perhaps it’s because you are currently arguing about how some words basically force people to be TERFs?
I’m not sure what else you are arguing, here, besides “don’t call the racist thing someone does racist. If you do that, they will keep doing their racist things, since we’ve left them no option but to be racist when we called their behaviour racist!”
You tell a story of how you were able to help your friend see the lies that the rightwing videos were telling them. That is great! I am glad you were able to help someone not be a huge, terrifying asshole.
Others might not have the ability to convince someone of the error of their ways, lacking your personal connection.
“Ah!” I hear from behind me on the bus, which frankly is just rude, reading my screen like that. Personal space, person! They continue: “what about how that one person from the westboro “””””””””church”””””””” was convinced when a stranger talked to them??”
To which i reply: that is a huge anomaly. Normally trolls are convinced of their rhetoric. I will still (when i have the energy) try to point out how and where they are wrong. Maybe i’ll convince ’em, but maybe i’ll help a silent lurker who is undecided see that we condemn these beliefs and behaviour with many good reasons.
But also, and here’s the group that i think your concern over hurting TERFs feelings is missing…
The people that TERFs shut up. The ones that racists drive away. The neuro divergent who don’t feel that spaces are welcoming to them. Various types of minorities who are often targetted by the crudest and loudest voices.
Hearing us go “no, this isn’t acceptable here” makes space for voices we might otherwise not hear.
If you want to go check out that thread I linked to previously, it might help illuminate why some people are leery of you.
Often the people who talk about how concerned they are about the use of the term TERF are TERFs who are trying to worm their way into the community subtly.
I’m not claiming that you are, but it tends to be a behavior that puts people on edge.
@Allandrel
It’s not just them — it’s a key part of all authoritarian dogmas. What comes to mind is people whining about “left-wing bias in the media” and “left-wing bias in academia” when what really bothers them is the media and academia actually looking at the facts and noticing uncomfortable truths that don’t accord with their dogma.
(Note: this isn’t a right-wing thing per se. It also applies to dogmatic Marxists and the like.)
Have you considered visiting the subreddit
r/StormfrontorSJW
?
To clarify, I’m not arguing for sparing the feelings of those people, the point I wanted to make was about lurkers and bystanders who see those arguments from outside.
I’m not asking anyone to try and reform already entrenched bigots, but I think it’s important to try and reach out to the people who haven’t yet fully bought into their rhetoric or taken a firm stance on the matter. I thought it was clear in my previous comment when I referred to the people on the fence, but apparently not.
Haven’t I’ve already made myself clear that I’ve seen my thoughts on this unwelcome and I won’t argue the term further with you? Why the hostility even when I’ve said I’m backing off from that argument?
I’m glad that at least some of you believe me when I say I’m here in good faith, and I hope you can bear in mind that I can’t look into your thought processes or predict your responses more than you can read my mind. I still have the opinions I have, but I will admit that I’ve worded and argued them badly if this is where it leads to.
I hope you can bear in mind that I’m from a different nation and cultural background than most of the posters here, and I can’t magically tell what responses my comments will get before making them. Some things I’ve said people here have agreed with, and some not, and I’m sorry I can’t always tell which beforehand, but I’ve never willfully started an argument.
If that was your point, I think that the example you chose to illustrate that point with was not worded well.
Here, look at this:
This example suggests that it is important to not use labels on people, because the people you would have labelled may be persuaded into another course of action.
I.e. the moral of this story you’ve told is “don’t call them TERFs and you might change their mind about being transphobic”, and people are responding to that sentiment.
The provided story does not illustrate why one may not want to use “bad” labels on other people’s behavior, in order to convince people who are not engaging in that behavior to… Continue to not engage in that behavior? To join a less shitty version of the group you refuse to label (or refuse to label “improperly”)?
You keep going on and on about how you assume we think you’re arguing in bad faith when very few people have ever said that they even suspect you to be a troll, and that’s mostly due to how you handle responses and how you keep bring up your pet topics in every single thread. What you’re getting right now is pushback against harmful ideas, not bad faith. IDGAF whether you believe the things you’re arguing or not. They’re harmful and I’m going to push back on them because I think it’s important to the trans folx here that we not value the comfort of TERFs over their safety. TERFs are not marginalized; trans folx are. TERFs are not murdered when found out; trans folx all too often are. TERFs choose to be bigots. If they can’t handle being called a factual descriptor of their views, they should not be espousing those views (I mean, they shouldn’t be either way, as trans folx don’t deserve to have hate speech leveled at them).
How do we do this?
If we refrain from labelling TERFs ‘TERF’ because…? (I am still not clear why, other than the fact that TERFs are pushing the ‘TERF IS A SLUUUUURRRRR’ narrative.) What does this get us?
Seriously, what? Is a lurker reading this going to think “well, those people are supporting trans people, and these others are saying that trans people are men in dresses who are trying to infiltrate women-only spaces to sexually assault Bio Women. I am equally on the side of both of these, let’s check in on what the commenters on WHTM have to say….” *monocle pop* “they are calling people TERFs?????? Well, that pushes me over the edge! I am gender critical from now on!!!!!”
If hearing ‘TERF’ made someone a TERF, they were never on the fence, is what i’m saying.
Again, serious question, what is your secret to tell the ‘just asking questions’ trolls from honest inquiry?
My technique is to answer their questions for a while, again, for the lurkers. And then when it is really obvious that they are just trolls, i wash my hands of it.
Re- reaching out – how do you propose we do this? Again, seriously.
Because this isn’t just some intellectual excercise for people. Some people here need to deal with this Every Day Of Their Life. And they get reeeeeal tired of it.
“You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar” is a common saying, and it means that if you are patient and kind to people, you have a better chance of changing their minds.
TW: right wing talking points about trans people and bathrooms, and the reality of who is in danger of being assaulted.
But do you? Trans people need to go “ah, yes, i can see how you would be worried i might only playing pretend so i can go in the women’s bathroom and assault your wife. You see, a) this isn’t about assaulting anyone, this is myself showing the best version of how i feel. B) there are already laws against assault, so me being in the right washroom wouldn’t change anything. C) i am much more likely to be assaulted and killed than you or your wife.”
And then they go and pee.
I can only imagine how exhausting this is.
But if you want to educate, you now need to never be angry, never be tired, never be sad, or need a moment to yourself, or just not want to answer questions.
Re: kupo being hostile – i didn’t read her reply with any hostility, just maybe tired resignation.
As a native english speaker, that was my take away. Not saying yours was wrong, but perhaps you are reading it differently than intended.
You have said that you come from a different culture/language, and fine. Now you know that venturing “maybe we should use a different term than TERF?” results in people wondering if you:
1) are a TERF, since ‘terf is a sluuuuuuuuuuur’ is a common TERF technique
2) are a concern troll, since this is again a common tactic “i’m just concerned by this” and then tying up a comments section in “is this something to be concerned about?” Which makes the marginalised people who are targetted by TERFs feel like maybe this community doesn’t have their back.
Though you could be (and i think probably are)
3) learning.
Learning is good, and i can see how people might be intimidated by the jargon and depth of knowledge here. Asking questions for learning is fine, but also asking for people to restrict themselves to only speaking about the surface 101 level of a subject isn’t good.
I made this comparison somewhere else. Someone wouldn’t go into a graduate level mathematics course and ask about how to calculate the radius of an object. They would probably do some reading and learning before, but if they felt that everyone needed to stop and explain a really basic concept… some might, because they want to encourage this person. Some might feel angry, that this hypothetical student was wasting their time. Some might just ignore the interruption.
But who is at fault, in this scenario? Should all the students have bent over backwards?
In essence, what i’m understanding is that we should all be ready to explain everything all the time, without using any definite words like ‘TERF’, so we don’t push potential allies away.
Scanisaurus, I doubt any one here actually expects you to read our minds. We do, however, expect you to read the comments where we have been telling you that your behavior is problematic. This isn’t new.
Funny story. I had a fruit fly infestation one summer and started to set up a vinegar trap. Then I remembered this saying and since I had honey on hand I set up an experiment: one vinegar trap and one honey trap.
Which one won? Well, my wine glass. Second place was the vinegar trap. Coming in last with zero flies even attracted was the honey trap.
Judging by how that expression is always used to try and force people to be nice to bullies, I felt it was an accurate metaphor. The advice given to us on how to handle our bullies is rarely based in reality.
Scanisaurus’ original point was, as far as I can decipher, that TERF was a bad term because it includes ‘radical feminism’ in the phrase, and therefore people who are opposed to transphobia but on the fence about feminism might decide not to be feminist, thinking that all feminism is transphobic.
Which is kind of a weird argument, since in my experience, pro-feminist sentiment (at least at the first wave level) is significantly more common than pro-trans sentiment. If there’s a community that needs to be protected from public animus against them, the trans community is far more in need of that than the feminist community. But at least this argument doesn’t seem to be aping at apologetics for transphobia.
It now seems like Scanisaurus’s argument has morphed into “people who act kind of transphobic should be reached out to and prevented from further developing into bigots”. At least, according to the anecdote she provided.
Which is a significantly more problematic argument against the use of the term TERF, because it is suggesting being nicer to transphobes at the expense of the people they are harming.
(Admittedly, there is some merit to reaching out to people who only start to exhibit bad behaviors, since we all are raised in a culture of prejudice and tend to internalize a lot of that bad shit. Letting people see how harmful some of their views are is important work. But it is work, and it’s not something to be demanded of marginalized folx who are just trying to survive. And it’s not a reason to make places “safe” for proto-TERFs and therefore unsafe for everyone a TERF would target.)
It’s also not… great, seeing an argument seem to go from “I make no excuses for transphobia of any kind” to “but maybe we should just talk to them civilly?” That’s not a great look.
@Rhuu:
Yay!
Something very similar to what you get when you refuse to call a racist a racist…
…so a golf-happy 70-year old lesbian president/prime minister who destroys the planet, the rule of law, the economy, quite a number of human lives, and the reputation of the nation in order to get “wins” against people she doesn’t like while corruptly funneling government funds to the properties she owns?
…i guess?
[as an aside, I’m also uncomfortable with the violent imagery and I wanted to thank you for taking it back]
I actually read the anecdote as being a further development of their original argument, in that Scanisaurus was saying that since
Carl of SwindonSargon of Akkad and others of his ilk are denigrating the term “feminism” in their videos, therefore any left-wingers using the term TERF (which includes the term “radical feminist”) also run the risk of reinforcing these incorrect associations. Which would push people like their friend further away from engaging with feminism, because… uh, they got their initial information about feminism from the likes of Sargon of Akkad.And that is where the argument gets a bit hard to follow, really; it’s not the term “radical feminism” that’s being attacked by right-wingers, it’s the entirety of feminism, innit? We could stop calling TERFs feminists tomorrow and it wouldn’t move the needle on the right-wing side of things.
@Ariblester, @Catalpa:
IIRC (I’m too lazy right now to reread the whole thread) someone then pointed out that that’s roughly the same as avoiding the term “toxic masculinity” because it contains the word “masculinity” and might lead to arguments with people who don’t understand that adjectives modify nouns.
@Ariblester
Oh! That makes more sense!
I was reading “feminist” as an analogy for “trans-positive” in that ancedote. But given that Scanisaurus seems to be laser-focused on defense of feminism specifically, a straight reading seems more reasonable.
I still think that it seems unlikely that there are many people who are very supportive of trans rights but have never encountered non-transphobic feminism, though.
@Ariblester
Yes, I think you got the point I was trying to make. I’m not asking you to agree to any of it, but I’m glad the point I was trying to make might finally be getting across.
All I ever wanted to say was that “hey, maybe this term could be willfully misinterpreted by anti-feminists and maybe it could alienate potential allies”. If you don’t agree on this I’m not asking you to, but I’ve never argued for sparing the feelings of bigots, that anyone hearing transphobic statements shouldn’t call it out or that anyone owe bigots a lengthy lecture, I just dislike one term that is used against them, and I’ve never claimed it to be something other than my opinion based on my experiences.
Firstly, I hope the “every single thread” was hyperbole, because that’s really isn’t the case. I won’t deny making comments I’ve regretted posting here, but you really can’t say I’m doing it in every thread I’ve commented in, or even the majority of threads I’ve commented in, and I’ve done my best to politely back down when I’ve found my opinions on it unwelcome.
Secondly, how on earth should I handle responses when it feels like any attempt on my part to clarify myself only ups the tone of most of them? Like I’ve said earlier, I’m from a different background than most posters here and the debates I’ve seen in my homeland are different in tone than what I’ve seen in the US, and English is not my native language. I may know a lot of words, but seeing them in a dictionary and how they are used in real life are rather different things. I didn’t mention it before, but I’m also on the spectrum (and I’ve garnered some other posters here are too) and I’ve struggled my whole life guessing others intent, which is doubly hard in text form with no voice tone or facial expressions to go by.
So what do you want me to say when I want to get the point across that I get you don’t want to hear my arguments on something and that I’ll stop making them if you stop misrepresenting them? I don’t want to unnecessarily prolong any arguing, but I feel it’s unfair to ask that I should stay quiet when I see people interpreting the things I’ve said in ways I’ve never intended and would never stand for either.