By David Futrelle
Generally speaking, it’s a waste of time for sensible people to argue with TERFs — that is, Trans-Excluding Radical Feminists. But on rare occasions it can be, well, highly illuminating. And weirdly entertaining.
Take, for example, the strange debate that broke out in J.K. Rowling’s mentions last night (FWIW, Rowling herself had nothing to do with it). After a long pitched battle over such fascinating topics as whether or not TERF is a slur (it’s not, BTW), one TERF demanded to know why a trans lesbian was interested in dating … other lesbians.
@TheaGardO replied that it wasn’t about the genitals: “No one can change sex … males never get a ‘fully female body.'”
Emma responded with a question, and a NEW HERO responded with an unexpected answer:
Er, what?
Someone called Malachite Tiger tried to tease out the implications with a sarcastic comment, and then things got EPIC.
Um …..
“Vaginal mucus is certainly a key element [of] what straight men are attracted to in female bodies.” That’s a slogan I’ve never seen on a t-shirt, that’s for sure.
I can’t speak for lesbians, but as a straight man, I have to say that the term “vaginal mucus” has never once popped into my head during a sexual fantasy. I’ve never heard a guy brag about his girlfriend’s awesome vaginal mucus, or suggest to me that I “check out the mucus” on some hot gal walking by.
Yes, straight guys tend to get psyched when a cis woman they’re with gets really wet down in that, er, humid region, though to be honest this is generally because they like to give themselves credit for this happy development. Some guys are obsessed with going down on cis women, and the taste is part of that whole experience; but other guys — as cis women understandably complain — aren’t.
Meanwhile, you have probably heard about the obsession many straight dudes have with putting their dicks in women’s butts, where, by definition, there is no vaginal mucus and the necessary lubrication comes in little bottles or tubes you can literally buy at any drug store. And guess what, either option down there feels pretty good for the guy.
Seriously, as long as a cis guy has some place to put his dick, or maybe a couple of options (not all of them necessarily located on the bottom half of the body), he’s generally pretty pleased. And there is obviously a lot more to sex than putting dicks in, well, whatever hole or crevice feels good to put them in. Sex is about more than genitals. And while your preferences are your preferences, and that’s fine, the people who are the most open about what counts as sex tend to have (and to be) the most fun.
The talk about vaginal mucus seems weird because it is weird. Love is about people, not about sexual organs and their particular secretions. Straight men (and lesbians, and bi or poly people of whatever gender) can and do enjoy sex with women who have surgically constructed vaginas, or no vaginas at all. Women (and gay men, and bi/pan folks) can enjoy sex with guys whose dicks aren’t even close to porn-star sized — and with guys who are impotent or literally have no dicks. Anyone confused by any of this can easily find numerous videos illustrating all these scenarios online, and many, many more.
TERFs are obsessed with “natiral” sex, but they talk about it as if they (and we) were Martians.
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Funny, because TERF wasn’t created by us trans people, it was an etiquette that radical feminists invented for themselves. No, the TERFs view of gender and their transphobia is different in rethoric and consequences, so having that category is helpful, just as separating different motives for bigotry are important. TERFs have activelly tried to supress trans people’s rights since decades ago. They demean and hurt us using radical feminist rethoric of oppression as justification, because we are opressing women, the one and final oppressed class, according to them (especially trans women get targeted, but I’ve also seen trans men hunted for sport and harrassed online by them). That’s certainly not what your everyday transphobe does. and it is not a gendered term, as male TERFs also exist out there, though rarer. My biggest problem with the term is that it’s used too broadly nowadays to describe a lot of people that it isn’t even applicable to, and I don’t think we should be harsher to TERFs than other transphobes. But getting that critique from someone that seems completely ignorant of the history and origin of the term and what it actually means is unhelpful. It ignores the actual harm TERFs have done to us, and how they’ve poisoned feminist movements against us, even though we’ve been part of those movements, and how much investment we ourselves have in ending gendered oppression.
I am completely ready to call the ”concern” towards the health of young trans people taking hormone blockers transphobia, due to the overall climate of devaluing trans people and our bodies as inherently inferior.
I was one of those ”children” (they don’t give hormone blockers to children that hasn’t started to enter puberty, e.g mostly teenagers like I was) and let me tell you, I’ve never appreciated total outsiders that don’t get how trans-related health care is practiced and how it helps us are suddenly so, so, ”concerned” for the health of trans kids (I transitioned over a decade ago so I’m not among them anymore. Still trans. Still happy with the choices I got to make with my body as a teenager with the help of understanding doctors in the face of my parents reluctant ”acceptance”. Also in very good physical condition), They seem to always ignore how mentally damaging it might be for a trans kid to go through irreversible pubertal changes caused by their own body if left alone. People think letting the body do things ”naturally” is always superior, even though in some cases the body’s own reaction would kill you if left unchecked, such as an allergic shock. In trans kids’ case, you adventure their health by not giving them blockers as well, and it will force them to take more surgeries and treatments to reverse them later that might have been prevented. Funny how that’s never seen as harmful to us. I don’t trust those kind of concerend people having the best interest of trans kids at all. I am ready to call them transphobes (and even TERF if that is applicable) I also think they’re ableist, since they consider my non-normative body that has to rely on hormone injections every three months but which makes me able to live as myself, as having less worth over a ”natural” body that made me absolutely miserable. What young trans people and trans people at all ages need is people telling us our bodies are beautiful, at the point when we ourselves are comfortable in them. Want less kids and teenagers to risk
physically transitioning? First make sure everyone respects our identities all the time everywhere no matter how we look, and nobody will seek treatment out of pure desperation only. We will still transition though, even as teenagers, because the problem we have with our bodies might also come mostly from within. Also, tell trans people that has transitioned that we’re not freaks, that out bodies are beautiful because we feel confident in them. And maybe we will have more happier and healthy people. Anyone that values ”natural” bodies over the mind inside us doesn’t really care about us as people. Thanks but no thanks for that kind of concern. The one with the right to be concerned are the health care providers and health-care researchers and the patients. Because they are the ones that knows what’s at stage whether you take them or not. I don’t like when people act like they’re concerned for our health, when they don’t even know the health damage not taking hormone blockers can do to us. And no, I’m not saying we shouldn’t carefully consider the effects hormone blockers can have on a growing person, I think that must be closely studied for our own sakes and for young trans people so we can all make informed decisions about potential risks. It’s just that all those bloody concern troll that tears their hair out for the kids that potentially face health complications due to blockers, usually don’t give a fuck about how going through the wrong puberty also causes tremendous health problems, and the suffering of trans people that went through irreversible unwanted body changes by getting no treatment. They can leave it to the ones that knows what they’re talking about, and that actually genuinely care about us as trans people.
They’re not helping us or our health, not even those of us that might suffer harmful health consequences due to trans-related care. This is very personal to me.
I didn’t think I would delurk for this, after reading here for years. I just get so frustrated with the latest fad of ”concern” for kids that was like me. It was all over the media and in all public newspapers a while ago, and it reached even my own country as media here copycat brittish and american media. It was potentially harmful, as people with no idea about trans care still felt the right to fear-monger about transitioning kids, that are vulnerable enough as is.
SlyFawkes,
The complaint that TERF is a slur is exactly what transphobes say. Their claim that it’s violent towards women is what they use to silence trans women who object to being abused by them. The claim that the term is used unfairly is also a shield meant to cast transphobes as victims when trans people defend themselves against hate. The puberty blocker thing is pure scaremongering. There’s no epidemic of parents forcing their children to medically transition. This is no different than saying “I’m not racist, I’m just ‘concerned’ that European culture will be lost if there’s too many immigrants” Hate is frequently disguised as mere concern.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just didn’t realize all this. Provided you don’t double down. Although realize that it is easy to do this because I am cis. Trans Mammotheers may be less inclined to, and that is their right.
If you are interested in learning, I highly recommend Contrapoints YouTube channel. She’s very good at treating the arguments of TERFs (and other miscreants) fairly and rationally before going on to destroy those arguments with surgical precision.
I see Sly Fawkes aka The Real Cie has outed herself as a transphobe again.
I’ve heard people refer to men (Wil Wheaton, for example) as TERFs, so I don’t actually think it’s a gendered thing. The term means (as many other have pointed out) Trans Exclusionary Reactionary Feminist. Now, some people automatically assume that feminist means it’s only for women, but since men can be feminists, that’s definitely not true.
@Yutolia
I really hope That Wil Wheaton isn’t a TERF and it’s just a baseless accusation from the haters .
Rhuu is getting errors when trying to post and has asked me to post this:
@Fabe
Wil Wheaton used Randi Harper’s gamergate block bot, and then Randi turned it into her own TERFy block bot, which caused anyone using it to block a bunch of trans folx. He then got really defensive about any inquiries about it. The whole thing was super messy, but I don’t recall anything Wil ever said or did that was TERFy. I could have missed something, though.
Oops, I said it was “Trans Exlusionary Reactionary Feminist”, it should be “Radical” instead of reactionary.
@Fabe: I used that as an example because it’s the first one that came to mind. He didn’t necessarily say something explicitly terf-y, but he is associated with a lot of them unfortunately. I keep hoping that it’s wrong and he’s just going about things the wrong way, but I can’t quite tell.
I didn’t realize she was a sock of someone who’s already been revealed as a TERF. Benefit of the rescinded.
Everyone can agree that Graham Linehan is a man and a TERF.
Seconds Rhuu comment
TERF is not a gods damned slur for fuck sake. Also TERFs can fuck right off.
@Sly TERF
Your choice of link gives you away. Fuck all the way off.
I feel the need to second “TERF is not a slur”. It’s important to point out that “TERF is a slur” is a disingenuous silencing tactic that TERFs use because they don’t like being accurately identified and criticised. It is an accurate description of their position, and having that pointed out makes it harder for them to poison the well against counterarguments.
If someone tells you “TERF is a slur”, they’re probably a TERF.
That said, I do sometimes think many people (including myself) fall into a habit of using “TERF” as a shorthand for “transphobe”, when it should properly mean a specific subset of transphobia and trans-antagonistic rhetoric. That’s something I’m working on.
I brought receipts, if anyone needs:
Initial TERFy statement (in the same thread where Lady Mondegreen was banned for same): https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/07/21/mgtows-dream-of-raping-beating-sexbots-that-say-no/comment-page-1/#comment-2151114
If you want proof they’re the same person (aside from the avatar): https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/09/21/malebag-women-s-k-d-k-because-d-k-built-and-maintained-all-upon-the-earth/comment-page-2/#comment-2230038
(That one has a bonus link to their TERF tumblr)
Oof, that Tumblr is real illuminating. Yuck. I clearly gave Sly Fawkes way too much benefit of the doubt in my previous post.
Just in case my last post wasn’t clear enough, TERF is not a slur. It’s an accurate term to describe transphobes who behave in a particular fashion.
And apparently an accurate term to describe Sly Fawkes, too. I wouldn’t be opposed to a ban, if David deems it justified. The arguments she’s been making are just barely toeing the line of plausible deniability, but the context around them and the links that have been provided are very clearly transphobic.
Someone tryin’ to sneak around
Thinkin’ herself so wry
Solely subvertin’, some people to be hurtin’
But turns out she ain’t so sly
@Rabid Rabbit, quoting Neil MacDonald:
That’s pretty high praise for Warren.
Bouchard has his issues (I’ve commented before that it seemed like he never met a political movement he didn’t think could be made better if he were in charge) but he is smart, focused, and willing to take the long view. When he moved from federal to provincial politics to take over the Parti Québécois, he realized that winning a referendum on separation would only happen if people felt that Quebec could stand on its own, so he spent most of his efforts on building the economy. In the end he mostly failed because the old-timers who supplied a lot of the party money and support insisted on a referendum before Bouchard felt they would be ready, so he walked out rather than be forced to do something he felt would fail.
I disagree with much of what Bouchard argued for, but he was still damn good at what he did and a cut above your average politician. And he was certainly more principled than Mulroney, though that would probably be considered damning with faint praise.
@Specialffrog:
Thank you, I clearly needed a better example. My brain has apparently gone on strike this week.
@(not really all that) Sly TERF:
Y’all remind me a bit of the incel movement with this whole “TERF is a slur” garbage. This was a term y’all adopted for yourselves, and then only started objecting to it when others started using it to describe your truly horrible, regressive ideas and label them as what they are.
I went ahead and banned Sly for linking to the terf site and, you know, the rest.
Also this is just BS:
Not all TERFs are women? I believe there is a certain male comedy writer in England who is rumored to be a TERF? /s
As for transphobes who aren’t TERFs, and can be of any gender, the term “transphobe” works fine?
I mean, I could try to come up with a replacement for TERF along the lines of “skidmarxist,” but so far the best I’ve come up with is “phlegmanist” — what with all the talk of mucus. But that’s really not very good.
@Jenora Feuer
And Antarctica is colder than Arizona.
Terrifying fact: At least on apartheid and acid rain, even Mulroney turned out to have some principles.
It is annoying when the separatists get the best politicians, though. Remember whichever election it was when there was suddenly a groundswell of people on the left going “Why does Gilles Duceppe have to be a separatist? I’d love to be able to vote for him!” (This was, of course, before he tarnished his image forever with his idiotic attempt at a comeback.)
Some friends of mine actually told him that to his face. Apparently he smiled awkwardly.
@Rabid Rabbit:
I did say that was damning with faint praise. Considering the two had been friends for years, and Bouchard basically came second in the party leadership convention that Mulroney won, it’s hard not to compare the two. And wonder how much Canadian politics would have been different if the firebrand had won out over the used car salesman. We probably wouldn’t have had the three-way fracturing of the party that happened afterward, anyway. (Well, considering Bouchard led one of the fractures, definitely not.)
The most principled Conservative leader in my lifetime would probably be Joe Clark. Which, again, is still kind of damning with faint praise. Hard to say where Kim Campbell would rank, we got to see so little of her because Mulroney kept trying to run things even after he’d officially retired.
Welcome, Tired of the Trans Kid Health Debate. Please feel free to stay delurked if you like!
men get called TERF too haha. what was that bullshit
@Jenore Feuer
Well, Campbell wasn’t going to last long anyway. No one who took over the PCs after Mulroney was going to. Though she didn’t help her case much.
And yeah, Joe Clark gets the principled card. He also, unfortunately, gets the boneheaded-and-bad-at-counting card.