By David Futrelle
Let’s take another trip to the Am I the Asshole subreddit, where a young father has come forward with a simple question: “[Am I The Asshole] for wanting another child?”
You’ll be shocked and stunned to learn that the question isn’t quite so simple after all. Admitting that his particular quandary might prove “controversial,” the Reddit daddy, calling himself iwntanthrkid, explains his situation:
When my wife and I got married we agreed that we would have 2 kids unless both were girls, then we’d have a 3rd to try for a boy.
Already I don’t like this guy.
I’m a guy’s guy and I grew up with only brothers so I feel strongly that I want a son to bond with. That’s not to say that I don’t love my daughter equally. I just want to raise someone to follow in my footsteps with sports and girls and stuff.
Uh, the first illusion, or at least one of the first illusions, you should give up when you have kids is the idea that you can and/or should raise them to “follow in your footsteps.” They’re not little clones of you. Let them make their own paths in life.
After some convincing, my wife agreed to this but said that if the 3rd kid was a girl, we’d stop trying.
“After some convincing.”
Anyway, we ended up having one boy (8 years old) and one girl (5 years old). This background is important because you need to know that having a 3rd kid was something that was on the table.
Oh crap, now it’s going to get really bad, isn’t it.
Last month, our son told us that he likes boys. This is totally fine,
Yeah, then why are you writing to Reddit about it?
I’m not a homophobe, but I’m starting to feel like I want to have a 3rd kid so we can try to have a straight boy.
I love my son more than anything and I wouldn’t love a straight kid more than him, but at the end of the day I wanted to be able to bond with one of my kids over traditional masculine stuff, which includes women.
What the fuck, dude. First of all, obviously you ARE a homophobe. And second, what the fuck do you mean by “bonding” with a son over women? Are you going to go to Hooters together and ogle the waitresses’ boobs? Are you going to tell him in graphic detail about all the hot babes you’ve banged? Are you going to say creepy things about the girlfriends he brings home?
Trust me, no boy gay or straight wants to hear his dad’s horny opinions about women.
My wife doesn’t think that this is a good reason to have a 3rd kid.
Well, your wife is right, and you’re damn lucky she even puts up with your sad ass.
She said that she would be open to having a 3rd kid but that she finds my reasoning disgusting and she doesn’t think she can go through with it knowing the reason for me wanting one.
Good. I’m surprised she even wants to stay married to you.
I don’t think she understands how special it is for a father to have a son who can follow in his footsteps.
Fuck you.
Am I the asshole or is she overreacting?
The AITA subreddit collectively came down on the “asshole” side of this question, and several of the commenters suggested that his wife should probably divorce him, pronto. I can’t say I disagree with them. He’s going to be a terrible father to his gay son. And, I imagine, to his daughter as well.
LGBTQ kids, like all kids, deserve to be raised by parents who not only love them but also don’t secretly resent them for not being little clones of them.
HAPPY PRIDE MONTH! Here’s some brain bleach.
Ok, that last one isn’t specifically a Pride Month gif, but come on, it’s a dog driving a mower!
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Good point @kupo re: all the things commenters accepted in the story. I was getting distracted, and didn’t even think about that!
Thank you, @Laserqueen, both for the compliment and for trying to respect what the people around you are telling you about themselves.
Victorious Parasol: It was the same with my father. Three girls, and he gamely played dolls with my little sisters (I wasn’t so much into dolls) as well as co-coached my third-grade softball team, taught us to ride bikes, taught me to sail, took us fishing, read to us, helped with our homework, ate our awful cooking experiments with relish (overcooked fudge and burnt cookies, he averred, were delicious), and fostered our curiosity and intellect. He was a bookish, artistic, outdoorsy kind of man, and I remember him getting offended when some dickweed cousin-in-law insinuated that there was something wrong with having girls instead of boys; it went over my head, so I didn’t understand why Dad was mad until much later. I miss him, too.
So yeah, this guy is the asshole. Children are people, too, not robots, carbon copies, or clones.
@Pyxxxie, RC
Read kupo’s post above mine. It points out the flaw in your thinking “I don’t care, I just don’t believe” better than I could. By not believing only that one thing, you show you do care.
Dear Readers, old and new, casual, daily, or those who tend to drop in and out as the hyperbole gets a bit much:
No one said that all children who have told an unworthy parent “I like kids like me” must be straight and just going through a phase.
In fact, if you are a person for whom this is not true, please realize you will be celebrated and supported on this website even when the rest of the world is horrible to you.
If you are a person who once said, “I like kids like me,” and now realize it means just that – people who are like you regardless of their gender – YOU ARE OKAY TOO. You don’t have to be gay OR straight. You can be you.
I realize that it’s tough to know all the answers and that people want you to line up as binary, straight OR gay, even when you are young and sorting things out. Please realize that binary people mean well, and may not always know the right way to offer you support and defense. They may think and say things like, “Nobody knows who they are at (insert life stage here),” thinking that it is a comforting thing to tell someone – all of us question facets of our identity throughout life, or we don’t grow. They may rather focus on the bad behavior of adults on either side (“I want a son like me” is bad but people also think so is “It might just be a phase” and so is “how dare you ignore the child’s immutable clearly stated in first person testimony sexuality!”) and point out that it is wrong for other people to apply their experiences to all situations.
All of these statements tend to lock a person into a rigid, static role, and none are about you. They are about the person making the statement.
Who you are will never change, and that’s good! It means you can spend a lifetime learning to love yourself. Oh, you’ll grow and add new layers, but you are you and that is good!
Who you love may change, and that’s also good! You should be with the person who loves the immutable core of your being, while supporting your growth and health. Sometimes you grow away from people. Sometimes you’ll grow back and share all your lessons from when you were away.
The point is, you are not a bonsai, confined to a limited world and pruned by a benevolent (as it were) hand. You are a mighty oak, shedding limbs when they no longer serve you, gnarled in places, but with great strength, beauty, and worth.
Grow where you will. Refuse the binary definitions of straight and gay if they don’t fit. Recognize that those who don’t understand your path aren’t always the enemy; sometimes they’re an opportunity to teach and learn.
Sometimes “meaning well” paves bad roads. Other times it waters a garden.
-AM
P.S. If you are dealing with parents who are getting used to understanding they misgendered you, please give them room to grow too. They may not have the vocabulary yet, and making the shift is harder for people whose social programming was pretty thorough. Sometimes they will love you imperfectly, but unconditionally, and after a few glasses of Scotch, apologize repeatedly and tearfully for misgendering you at birth. They may use the wrong words at first because this is a new world for them. If this is you and your parent, please know it has always been about love.
P-P.S. If you are the parent of a misgendered and/or non-binary child, I won’t lie. It’s been a hard road. Everyone is willing to tell you how you’re fucking it up, including the child. It’s cost me several jobs and many potential friendships. Obviously I’m glad I chose my kids, but it still made for rough going. Now that both survived to become adults, I’m being told I did it all wrong. I read responses from the gay community to straight people fumbling their way through, being essentially right – c’mon, the kid’s actual identity isn’t the topic, it’s his idiot dad’s reaction to the potential future – and I recognize the frustration on all sides. Stick with it. You are part of the circle, too.
Good fortune and beneficial RNG to all, and to all a fruitful turning of the earth.
@Big Titty Demon:
Sorry, I think I wasn’t clear enough — after thinking about it, I’d come to the conclusion that, if this isn’t a troll, I should take it as true. I was trying to explain my thought process, as to why I initially focused on what I saw as an asshole pushing sexuality on an eight year old boy, and then using it to hate him. I also did question other details, but mentioning them wasn’t immediately relevant. I questioned how much of his “deal” with his wife was him forcing his desires onto their relationship rather than by her consent, for instance, even though I didn’t mention it in my post.
Now I’m wondering if my development of romantic/sexual attraction was (significantly?) delayed, at least compared to normal. At eight I just wouldn’t have understood any of this, never mind being able to express it. It took me until I was ten to start realizing that I was attracted to a few others in a way that wasn’t simply as friends, and at least another couple of years to reach the point where I was able to volunteer that information to others. But at eight? I just couldn’t have, and I didn’t think that was unusual until this came up.
Sounds to me like the douchebag in the OP needs to go out and find some dudebros to make friends with. Oh, and stop having kids.
Yeesh.
My mom tried to make me into her image of a good home maker. I hated every minute of that. I mean, loved her and trusted her, but we were never simpatico.
Somewhere around my high school years, we both figured out that that was all okay and things got much better between us. I can only hope that Yes-you-ARE-the-asshole dad figures it out, too.
To those who question a child’s capability of knowing their sexual orientation. I have a gay nephew, two bi nieces, and a lesbian niece (that I know about). Most of them were about that age when they realized their sexual orientation and, in the case of my gay nephew, it was pretty telling early on. The Gay runs big in the family considering I also have three gay cousins.
To the topic of parents wanting a “Mini-me”, I am compelled to comment because both of my narc parents had a really bad case of this, my mother in particular.
You know what the most efficient method for fucking ruining a life is? Trying to indoctrinate your children into following your footsteps. I absolutely loathe people like that.
If you have unresolved issues or unfulfilled dreams, please fucking seek therapy instead of trying to project your ambitions onto your children. If you’ve had a turbulent or unfulfilling childhood all you are going to do is create trauma for your children, ontop of projecting your very own onto them, thereby creating an even worse kind of trauma you had to begin with.
If you feel you are not ready to respect your own children as individuals, or if you think children are property, please refrain from having any. Tie your tubes or get a vasectomy. You are only going to make both of your lives miserable.
Okay @Atropos Moirai – I have no idea what you’re on about, and was wondering if you could clarify it?
Are you responding to me, and my saying “I believe kids when they self-ID, because why wouldn’t I?” – To say that’s… Bad?
That’s what I’m getting from this –
I wasn’t even talking about the binary? Like, I firmly believe that gender and sexuality and attraction and being a/romantic are all spectrums, and where you are on them can shift during your life.
I probably should have used ‘queer’ rather than either ‘Not Straight’ or ‘gay’, because ‘queer’ is inclusive, and ‘gay’ is centering the discussion on the term for dudes, which isn’t great. And no one likes being defined against being ‘normal’. But some people (usually older people or TERFs (who I don’t care about, fuck TERFs)) have a problem with it, because it was a slur that has since been reclaimed – but words can still hurt, even if reclaimed, so I didn’t use it.
So, clearly, I am not understanding your point, and was hoping for some clarification.
Christ, these men have such fragile egos.
“I need a straight son so I can make crude remarks about woman and feel like a man.”
Long time reader, first time commenter…
Until we got to the gay stuff, this literally was / is? my father. He wanted that boy so badly they tried 4 times. (failed 4 times too, may I add) And every time I, growing up as a little girl, would express that I was hurt by his unrequited desire to have a boy, he gave this same reasoning. He wanted a boy to bond with over boy things. He was one of 8, 6 sisters and 1 brother, and that somehow got it in his head that his special relationship with his brother was because they were both male, not because they were twins. So he’d get mad at me saying I didn’t understand. Surprise dude we have no relationship at all now. Maybe shoulda invested your boy things time in your daughter.
The irony is he DOES have a clone of him in my sister.
@Yutolia the Green Hash Pronoun Boner
@Jesalin: Clit-o-centric Lesbian Goddess
This isn’t really relevant to anything, but I love your usernames. They’re perfect
As for the reminiscing everybody’s doing, I was always much too introverted and precocious to have many of the same childhood memories many fondly remember, and my desires and interests were quite different from those of my siblings. Instead, many of my fond childhood memories are of my parents taking me to museums, monuments (usually while on vacation), book stores, mineral shows, and the like. Much of this was to the dismay of my siblings, but both of my parents were a bit geeky themselves and were glad that one of their children at least appreciated it.
I recall getting crushes on female class mates and friends at that age. probably a lot more then the male ones. I had a crush on a boy name Johnny and a girl name Taylor growing up. Gay exists. The younger generations just under stand it a lot more and have words to it. Of course I didn’t know about bi sexuality at that age or have any sexual urges at that point but puppy dog love of holding hands and a kiss on the cheek. I had that and I’m sure this boy is to. If straight kids can have puppy dog love then the gay ones can have it to. It adults that need to stop getting it mixed up with sexual urges. Non straight love is a lot more then simply wanting to bone someone of the opposite sex.
Catalpa, I don’t know where you’re seeing people here who say it’s worse to treat a straight kid poorly than it is to treat a gay kid poorly. I don’t think anyone here has made that claim.
I’ve known people who knew they were gay in early childhood. I’ve known people who married hetero, raised six kids, were widowed, and in their eighties realized they preferred their own gender. Both of those are valid people. Neither one is the way it is for everyone.
*my own family thought I was gay and in the closet for many years. No, parents, I’m genderqueer and I don’t bring my partners around to meet you because our family dynamic is a horrifying dumpster fire. Luckily for me, they didn’t treat me any worse than usual because of it – at least they got that right.
At this point I simply want this man to be rendered incapable of having kids. The traditional two sharp bricks would suffice.
I haven’t seen anyone say that explicitly.
But I do get the sense of that kind of sentiment when I see people respond with “the kid might not even be gay!” to a situation like this.
To me it sounds like someone’s saying “hey you can’t treat that kid poorly, you don’t even know for sure if he deserves it” instead of “hey don’t treat your children like garbage, asshole”.
If it’s wrong to treat one’s children poorly regardless of their orientation, surely whether the son is truly straight or gay or bi or pan or ace or undecided is completely irrelevant?
A kid who announces he likes boys is exactly the same kid that he was five seconds ago. There’s no reason on earth to treat him any differently than you did five seconds ago, much less openly fantasize about replacing him.
It says a lot about the dad that the deepest level at which he can envision bonding with his son is “women”. And I doubt very much that those conversations would be flattering to women. Given his homophobia, he sounds like the sort of dad who thinks teaching his son to be a man means filling his head with gender essentialist dogma. I don’t understand what’s so special about passing down outdated tropes, or why he feels fatherhood is incomplete without that experience. Those are not footsteps that need to be followed.
The more I learn about some other people’s fathers, the more grateful for mine I am.
When I was 13 I started having dreams about kissing my best friend (another girl). It soon became pretty obvious to me that I had a crush on her. But I dismissed those feelings, and when the adults around me said that I wasn’t interested in boys yet because I was a late bloomer, I believed them. I was pretty much gaslit into identifying as straight. Eventually, I got a boyfriend, forced myself to sleep with him, and found the experience traumatizing enough to decide to remain single for the rest of my life. I was 23 when I finally was able to admit to myself that I was a lesbian and that maybe I should give dating another chance.
But yeah, ten years of straight misery, that was fun. /s
What I am trying to say is that it doesn’t matter whether this boy’s sexuality is set in stone, or whether the father’s assertions can be trusted. In a world where straightness is still very much the expected default, the last thing we need is doubt how people self-identify, no matter their age. It’s harmful.
@Nina
I’m so sorry you went through that. I hope you’re doing okay.
@Lainy
Thanks, I am doing fine now (it’s been over a decade since I came out). I do get quite angry though when people act like lgbt+ issues shouldn’t be discussed with children or that children couldn’t possibly understand anything about it. If homosexuality had been more normalized during my childhood, it would have spared me a lot of grief.
@Nina
Same. Especially when you don’t understand what your feeling because you’ve never heard a word for it or seen any lgbt adult couples. The self hatred. She is real and she comes with a force!
Wondering whether the kid is really gay or not –
I don’t think that matters. The guy wants a replacement kid for whatever reason and is hanging his argument on gender because (and that he did detail) – that was the “agreement” with his wife.
What is clear is that he wants not just another kid, but a replacement fantasy kid, so for whatever reason – he thinks his son isn’t good enough 🙁
Yuck. What a person. Y’know, he could relate better to his kids if he didn’t try to force them into his narrow viewpoints. Not that he seems about to realize it.
@ReductiveChaos –
– I don’t think so. Like others were saying, people come to these things at different ages.
Me for example? I clearly had a crush on my grade 1 French teacher, but at the time I thought I loved her like a mother or something. At that age I assumed romance was male-female. Later, when I was 12-13 and found myself more physically attracted to girls than boys, I thought I must be gay (or lesbian – for some reason I found that word old-fashioned but pretty, like lace doilies ). It wasn’t until I was 14 that I realized I was bi – basically because I learned what that was 🙂
Funny enough, when I was doing a Master’s degree, I wondered aloud to my friend if I was asexual. Now, I’m not the horniest person I know, but I’m definitely not ace either. But I was overworked and overtired!
Z&T,
I agree.
I think the kid’s sexuality is ultimately immaterial. Maybe he is gay. Maybe he’s bi and doesn’t realize it yet. Maybe he’s straight and doesn’t understand the concept of sexuality yet. Maybe what said was misinterpreted. They’re all plausible options, but which one is the truth doesn’t really matter. The important thing is to accept what he says and treat him accordingly until he tells you otherwise. I think what we’re all trying to get at in the comments here is that you should respect what other people tell you is true about themselves and let them tell you if they later decide they got it wrong.