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alt-lite alt-right antifeminism antifeminist women cuck cuckolding empathy deficit entitled babies evil wives hypergamy men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny MRA paul elam PUA reactionary bullshit red pill reddit rollo tomassi roosh v Stefan Molyneux

“Paternity Fraud is Evolutionary Rape and Murder,” and might itself JUSTIFY MURDER, argues dude high on manosphere fumes

Not an actual book

By David Futrelle

Manosphere men are obsessed with the idea that women are naturally unfaithful, willing and eager to cheat on their husbands or boyfriends with any alpha male that happens to glance in their direction — a female proclivity these guys like to call “hypergamy,” a highfalutin word borrowed from anthropology and radically redefined to give their altogether unscientific, and thoroughly misogynistic, assumption the patina of SCIENCE.

For these guys, the worst-case scenario, hypergamy-wise, would be to discover that their partner not only cheated on them, but got pregnant in the process — and decided to pass off the resulting child as theirs. These guys see paternity fraud — which they assume is rampant — as not just a breach of trust, but as the ultimate form of cuckolding and a violation of what they see as their God-given right to pass their genes on to the next generation.

A post on Roosh V’s now-dormant Return of King’s site, summing up the view of many in the manosphere, claimed that “paternity fraud is worse than rape.”

But some go even further — with one commenter I recently ran across declaring paternity fraud to be a kind of murder.

“Paternity Fraud is Evolutionary Rape & Murder, Emotional Abuse and Financial Fraud,” wrote an angry Redditor calling himself MixedMartialArtsGuy in an open letter to Mr. Dr. Jordan Peterson urging him to stop advocating for marriage.

“[T]here is little to no recourse for men in the law,” MMAGuy continued.

This [is] why no man with any self respect or Red Pill knowledge gets married in 2019 onwards and any man with kids needs to get paternity tests – 1/3 kids tested have the wrong father.

The one-third claim gets pulled out pretty much any time manosphere men start talking about paternity fraud. But it turns out to be, well, utter garbage, like pretty much everything else these guys say. If these guys bother to give a source for this claim, they generally refer back to a New York Times piece on paternity testing. But the NYT piece itself offers no source for this number.

Several years back, sociologist Michael Gilding made an effort to track down the source of this “stubborn figure,” ultimately discovering that it came from “the published transcript of a symposium on the ethics of artificial insemination that was held nearly forty years ago, in 1972.” The numbers originated in a never-published study of patients in one English town. And we don’t even know how the study was conducted; as Gilding notes, neither the “precise tests [nor the] population sample were [ever] identified.”

So what’s the real number? Gilding, writing in 2011, looked at 2008 date from US and Australian paternity testing labs and found a “non-paternity rate” of roughly 25%.

“The problem with these figures is obvious,” he adds.

The participants are not a random sample of the population. On the contrary, they are a group of people who have doubts about the paternity of a child or children. The main thing we can say on the basis of these figures is that about three-quarters of people who have some reason to doubt paternity will find that their doubts are unfounded.

So what is the actual percentage? We don’t know. Gilding reports that recent — or recent-ish — published studies range from 0.78% — (from a 1994 Swiss study) to 11.8% (from a 1999 Mexican study). He notes that “the best North American study, published in 2009, proposes a rate between 1 and 3 per cent.”

But don’t expect to convince MMAGuy of this. When I poked around online trying to see if anyone else agreed with his “paternity fraud is murder” stance, I ran across an almost identically worded comment from someone with a suspiciously similar name under a video on “paternity fraud and the modern cuckold” by our old friend nemesis Paul Elam. (I think it’s safe to assume that MMAGuy and MMAFather are the same guy.)

In these even-less-hinged comments, the artist now calling himself MMAfather seemed to suggest that paternity fraud was not only equivalent to murder; it could also possibly justify murder.

Paternity Fraud is like Evolutionary Rape & Murder, Emotional Abuse and Financial Fraud all at the same time but there are no laws protecting men. Instead France banned paternity testing under "Protect the Family Peace" law because they know 1/3 kids tested have the wrong father.

MMAFather Dating MGTOW, anti-Marriage/Divorce-RapeMMAFather Dating MGTOW, anti-Marriage/Divorce-Rapeпреди 5 месеца
What would happen if men started killing their ex-wives and the judges that Divorce Raped them? Would it encourage the legal system to change? Right now neither women, nor lawyers, nor judges, nor politicians have any incentive to fix the broken system. Men have their house stolen, made homeless, forced to pay alimony while she fucks other men in his house etc. It's sickening slavery cuckoldry. People should get nothing from each other after a relationship ends.

You may wonder how exactly someone gets to the point at which they think the mass murder of divorced women and family court judges is somehow a sensible plan for political change.

In the case of MMAGuy/MMAFather, it’s clear that at least part of the reason is that he spends a great deal immersed in the manosphere — reading posts and comments, making posts and comments, watching videos, even reading the occasional book or two.

In fact, we know exactly which videos he’s watched and what books he’s read — because he has spelled this out explicitly not only by dropping comments on a Paul Elam video but by posting links to the works of other manosphere-associated ideologues he follows.

In one highly upvoted post on the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, for example, he strongly urges his fellow MGTOWs to read books by reactionary dating guru Rollo Tomassi and antifeminist ideologue Helen Smith; to watch videos from self-described Men;s Rights Activist and alt-right YouTube “philosopher” Stefan Molyneux as well as MGTOWs Turd Flinging Monkey and Sandman; and even Jordan Peterson, though he doesn’t like JP’s take on marriage. Oh, and he also encourages them to watch Cassie Jaye’s Red Pill documentary, a sort of love note to the Men’s Right movement that was funded in part by the very people Jaye was “reporting” on.

It’s not surprising, though it is certainly distressing, that someone who regularly dumps this much poison into their brains ends up having some pretty poisonous views. What’s even more distressing is that MMAFather’s comments about murdering divorced women and judges were evidently so uncontroversial to the other commenters on Elam’s video that not a single one of them challenged him — or, indeed, said anything at all about his outrageous views.

That’s the kind of world that Elam, Molyneux, Tomassi and the rest have created with their terrible ideas and poisonous rhetoric over the course of the last decade.

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weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It’s hard to imagine why a family court judge would side with this guy’s ex over him, huh?

Lainy
Lainy
1 year ago

Jesus Christ a judge could probably smell the hate off these guys a mile away.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
1 year ago

“Paternity Fraud is Evolutionary Rape and Murder,” and might itself JUSTIFY MURDER, argues dude high on manosphere fumes

It’s just a short step from contemplating whether this justifies murder, to saying that it does, to saying that all women should be murdered to make sure they don’t try to pull off this trick (or to punish those who have).

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
1 year ago

The main thing we can say on the basis of these figures is that about three-quarters of people who have some reason to doubt paternity will find that their doubts are unfounded.

In other words, guys are usually wrong on this point.

occasional reader
occasional reader
1 year ago

Hello.

Instead France banned paternity testing under “Protect the Family Peace” law because bullshit figures.

I do not know from where MMAFather is, but if he had done at least a bit of research, he would have find that paternity tests are not banned here. Their usage are just defined by a law.
From the last legal update (December 2018 – it is in French, sorry), it is allowed if there is a judiciary process aiming at :
– establishing or contesting a filiation bound
– being granted or stopping alimonies
The person to be tested must agree (yes, the father must agree. It is a man right, as they exist outside the narrow minded world vision of MMAGuy).
It has to be asked by a lawyer, and the judge of the district court had to order it.
Out if this frame, it is illegal.

If MMAGuy/Father practices MMA as efficiently as he builds his argumentation, he is far to be the next John Cena.

Have a nice day.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

O/T: A woman on Twitter having a bad day muses, “what if the Joker in Batman was a woman who’d been told to smile once too often?” Awesome idea, right? Not to the man-babies of comicdom who had to come squat in her replies for daring to get girl-cooties on their precious, basically validating her original thought.

comment image

(Source: Charlie Stross)

Weatherwax
Weatherwax
1 year ago

@Cat Mara

I second your applause. I was also impressed by how she managed humour in the face of the hate tide.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

comment image

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

I’d read a comic about that kind of Joker. Sounds like a good “what if?” opportunity.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
1 year ago

@ Cat Mara:

for daring to get girl-cooties on their precious,

my day hath been made

off-topic-ish, that pic of Orson Welles creeps me all the WAY out. The lighting effect they used on those ’50s/’60s B&W “sinister” films is, to me, way scary. Too many late-night Twilight Zone episodes on my pre-adolescent brain, I guess.

Katamount
Katamount
1 year ago

These people have way too much money to be throwing it at these effin’ grifters, I tells ya. Like Chapo sez, we gotta get a grift that funnels these dollars for the cause of good rather than another Nazi talking head.

OT, but a thought popped into my noodle as I was listening to Will Menaker interview Alan Moore on Chapo. Menaker and his merry band are in the UK at the moment and he came across Christ Church Spitalfield, which features heavily in Moore’s legendary From Hell, and Moore describes the way architecture informs our lives on a far more fundamental level than we think on the surface. For instance, the Christ Church was meant to impose its dominance over the Huguenot refugees that lived in Spitalfield at the time and cast shadows on every alleyway, leaving people to feel like rats trapped in a maze.

Moore went on to say that our capacity to imbue our surroundings with their own mythology is absolutely vital to them having lasting meaning for us. Definitely feeling that in this new Toronto springing up everywhere. These glass monstrosities downtown almost defy mythology. They literally hide nothing, showing off all of their tacky innards, or else just reflect our ugly selves like mirrors in the harsh sunlight.

It certainly explains why I’ve become so fascinated with heritage properties in Toronto. While many of the Victorian styles have the feel of the old country, it’s founding by a military man (Col. John Graves Simcoe) gives it a more orderly, regimented feeling than London. Streets don’t wind in the downtown core, they’re laid out in a grid pattern, but they were left very narrow due to the nature of the land allotments that stretched from Lot Street (now Queen Street) to the first concession (now Bloor Street). Perfectly emblematic of the Protestant commitment to order. With space at a premium, the tall narrow bay-and-gable style of house became the city’s hallmark, and there’s myths-a-plenty to be found in those old bricks.

I remember hearing the ghost stories about University College or Spadina House when I was a kid, even when I was attending U of T itself! University College is a National Historic Site, so it’s not in danger of being bulldozed to make way for a new facility, but the Banting and Best Institute buildings are on the chopping block to make room for this monstrosity. Just the latest casualty of a city with questionable dedication to its own mythos.

If our structures are just left to rot, torn down and rebuilt every 50 years or so, then we can’t forge that mythology that imbues that meaning. Stephen King actually had a short story called “Willa” where the ghosts of a train crash ponder their fate when they realize that the station they’re haunting is about to be demolished. The protagonist ghost couple decide to leave, but the rest can’t bring themselves to acknowledge their fate.

A tangent, I know, but just one that perfectly explained actions that I really had little personal explanation for.

Simon
Simon
1 year ago

@Katamount
Tangentially related but lighter in tone the black clockface of St George The Martyr church.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

@Katamount:
I remember hearing news reports about how at least one City Council meeting was winding to a close, got to “Is there any more business to discuss”, and then had one councilor propose designating a particular building as a heritage site. That proposal was seconded and voted on within minutes.

It was done this way because there’s lots of history to suggest that any proposal to declare a building as a heritage site that is actually on the agenda for City Council in advance tends to result in developers trying to knock the building down before the vote can happen.

And that’s on top of the rather contentious history between the City of Toronto and the Ontario Municipal Board where developers would appeal City decisions that they didn’t like to the provincial Board which was usually stacked with developer-friendly people and so would often overturned the city. That history is a good chunk of why the Ontario Municipal Board no longer exists as such.

(Mostly just noting that a lot of Toronto’s mythology was actually written not by the city, and in fact over the city’s objections.)

It may be worth noting that Dean Motter, the creator of the 1980s comic book ‘Mister X’ which involved architecture deliberately designed to evoke emotional responses, lived in Toronto at the time. (In the comic, cost-cutting and cheap materials had deformed the original ‘psychetecture’, and the corrupted design was slowly driving people in the city mad.)

Back on topic… wow. It really is all about them and the feelings that they can’t admit are actually feelings, isn’t it?

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

Speaking of architecture in an urban setting, has anybody else here read Fritz Leiber’s Our Lady of Darkness? I first read that decades ago, and the story still haunts me. The first time I saw Ghostbusters (back when the boys were bustin’ ghosts on the initial big-screen release), I thought of Leiber’s megapolisomancy concept.

LollyPop
LollyPop
1 year ago

The 1%-3% figure has to be way off too – that would mean 10-30 pupils of every average British secondary school are “paternity fraud” babies. Which considering how rarely you hear of these cases (to the extent that its Jeremy Kyle-style TV worthy) can’t be true. Unless it includes kids knowingly raised by someone who is not their father from birth?

Katamount
Katamount
1 year ago

@Simon

Fascinating. Reminds me of the stories I heard about the Halifax Town Clock when I noticed that one of the faces was running a little fast a couple years back.

Toronto can stand to take some lessons from Halifax.

Robert
Robert
1 year ago

Victorious Parasol, yes, I have read that!
“When the weights are on
At Sutro Mount and Monkey Clay
THEN BE his LIFE squeezed away”

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

Yay, Robert! There should be more Leiber stuff in the world – it’s been years since any of his work was adapted for other media, and that’s a shame.

Shadowplay
1 year ago

He’s rather difficult to adapt. Can’t really cut down any of his work to fit a movie since everything is important.

Never sure why most fans don’t class him up there with the big 3.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

Granted, but a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser tv series could be excellent.

moregeekthan
moregeekthan
1 year ago

@Lollypop

I had read somewhere that estimated a worldwide ~2% of kids born to married couples had a father that was not the husband to whom the wife was married. They did emphasize this was a very rough estimate, and also that it varied widely by region.

Victorious Parasol
1 year ago

I’d like to see a limited-run series of Conjure Wife. Yes, it’s already had several adaptations of varying quality, but as Shadowplay has pointed out, there’s a lot of story in Leiber’s stories. It would be nice if somebody could give Tansy room to breathe.

ETA: And wouldn’t the Change War stories work well in a TV format?

Scanisaurus
Scanisaurus
1 year ago

Regarding the whole discussion on architecture, I find it fascinating that Victor Hugo specifically wrote The Hunchback of Notre Dame because he wanted to raise funds for restoring and preserving the building, and he considered the best way of doing so was to create a story revolving around the building that would get people emotionally invested in it, and I think he succeeded greatly.

It’s one of the things I didn’t like about the US when I was there on a vacation, with only a few exceptions, nearly all buildings looked very ugly and generic and there was very little individual character to any of it compared to other countries I’ve visited, but another thing that struck me was just how big all the streets and sidewalks were.

Can anyone explain why they are so wide and all the buildings are so far apart? As a swede, I just find it odd and impractical but I’d be curious to know.

Shadowplay
1 year ago

Granted, but a Fafhrd and Grey Mouser tv series could be excellent.

Who do we bribe, blackmail or threaten for this to happen? Because it should. It really should. (As should Laumer’s Retief series).

Tales of Weird channel on youtube has some readings, done rather well. Guy’s got a nice voice for an epic tale.

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
1 year ago

@Scanisaurus:

Can anyone explain why they are so wide and all the buildings are so far apart? As a swede, I just find it odd and impractical but I’d be curious to know.

My guess would be that a lot of N. American settlements were laid out *after* the widespread adoption of the automobile.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Scanisaurus:

And that’s why translations of the novel ought to keep its original title of Notre-Dame de Paris instead of calling it after the admittedly memorable but not main character. As Hugo said, the main character is the cathedral.

As for North American streets, what Moon Custafer said, probably plus a bit of “Everything’s bigger in America.” When it comes to the sidewalks, there’s something mean and fat-shaming to be said about them being adjusted to the average width of Americans, but they’re also more convenient in terms of letting people pass each other, etc.

The width of the streets might also have something to do with the taste for skyscrapers: wide streets means that at least a little bit of sunlight can get in.

If we’re talking about residential buildings being far apart, there’s probably a bit of “A man’s house is his castle” going on. Part of the myth of American settlement is “There’s so much free land here, you can have way more than you could have got back in Europe,” and that may still be baked into the mindset.

But mostly, it’s about cars.

Tovius
Tovius
1 year ago

Some googling lead me to this website: http://plazaperspective.com/why-are-modern-streets-so-wide/

There I the cars, yes, but streets started to get wide before that.

Tovius
Tovius
1 year ago

Apparently streets started to get wide before cars, at least according to this site I recently googled: http://plazaperspective.com/why-are-modern-streets-so-wide/

Granted, many of the things in that article also apply to Europe, so I don’t know way American streets are particularly wide.

Speaking of wide streets, weren’t the streets in Paris widened, at least in part, to make it harder for rioters and rebels from barricading the street?

otrame
otrame
1 year ago

@Scanisaurus

You have to remember that cities in the US are really young, compared to European cities. We get all excited here about the church of Mission Concepcion, which is one of the two or three oldest unreconstructed stone buildings in the US, built in the early 1730s. A visitor from the UK noted that, as a child, he lived in an entire neighborhood of houses at least 300 years older than that.

What that means is that even city centers here are relatively young. San Antonio is the 9th largest city in the US, yet only has about 10 buildings you could call skyscrapers. The center of the city has very narrow streets that wander around, following the paths of the old acequias (irrigation ditches originally build by the Spanish starting around 1720). Once you get out of that quite small central area, the streets get wider and some attempt at a grid system was imposed. That’s because the city was still quite small and compact until after WWII, when the population exploded. Since we had cars by then, we left room for them as we grew. San Antonio is spread out over an enormous area these days. The fact that there is no environmental barrier to the expansion helps as well.

Quite simply, we have a LOT of land available. You could put ALL of the UK into Texas and have a bit of room left over. It’s not like it is in Europe, where land available for building cities was at a premium. We were able to spread out a good bit, and we did it long before the cars were invented. Consider Washington D.C. The man who designed the city wanted grandeur. Lots and lots of grandeur. In his mind, that meant lots of space between the buildings. Much city construction, especially in the early 19th century, when the majority of our oldest cities started getting pretty big, went with that idea. Wide, spread out.

GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina
1 year ago

If you like cities with narrow, winding streets, visit Boston. A good snowstorm shuts the city down, since the streets are so narrow that there’s no place to plow the snow to. Of course, downtown Boston was settled in the middle of the 17th Century.

tim gueguen
1 year ago

It’s funny the places you see MGTOW nonsense turn up. The other night I was checking out the Telecaster Discussion Page Reissue, a webforum for fans of the Fender Telecaster guitar. In the site’s off topic section there was a post from someone asking advice about whether he should marry or not. The first response, from a long term member, was the following:

MGTOW FTW!

Absolutely do not get married. I cannot stress this enough.

Good luck…

It got 14 likes. Some of the responses weren’t MGTOW positive, but it was definitely surprising for a site that probably swings pretty heavily middle age demographic wise.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Scanisaurus
Moon_Custafer has the short answer. The long answer involves a fair bit of minutiae about development policy, but boils down to racism.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

Some of the responses weren’t MGTOW positive, but it was definitely surprising for a site that probably swings pretty heavily middle age demographic wise.

A) most of the MGTOWs featured on here are middle aged, so I’m not sure why that part would be surprising
B) most of the musicians I know are entitled white dudes

Shadowplay
1 year ago

… it was definitely surprising for a site that probably swings pretty heavily middle age demographic wise.

Seen MGTOW crap on Free Republic, of all places.

Now I know miggies and righties go together like bacon and eggs, but the average age on FR is about 70.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Paternity Fraud is Evolutionary Rape and Murder

Last I checked, it’s not possible to kill evolution*, nor can you force it to have sex with you.

*I suppose killing all life on Earth would kill the evolution of life on Earth, in a sense, but I don’t see how cheating on a partner does that. I mean, it’s not fair, but it doesn’t exactly cause mass extinction.

Okay, seriously, the “evolution” part is probably referring to the survival of an individual’s genetic lineage, but it still doesn’t make sense. Evolution is about group survival, not individuals.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Tovius

Yup! Well, they were rebuilding Paris anyway, but while they were at it, they remembered just how often riots ended up with barricades using the cobblestones and random furniture, so they figured they’d make the streets too wide for that to be practical, while also making it easier to bring in the cavalry and/or cannons to take care of any rioters.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
1 year ago

Nothing like mad men
Pontificating murder
On evening’s end.

Citerior Motive
Citerior Motive
1 year ago

Stray apostrophe in “Return of King’s” in the third paragraph.

Katamount
Katamount
1 year ago

@Jenora Feuer

That would certainly explain the news articles like these ones.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
1 year ago

@Jenora, Katamount

Shouldn’t there be, I don’t know, some mechanism by which such a thing can be put on the agenda and a temporary injunction issued against any demolition until the matter has been decided?

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Surplus

Why yes, there should. But that would require Canadians to know that history exists, let alone that it’s important.

Scanisaurus
Scanisaurus
1 year ago

I just wanted to thank everyone replying to my comment,
it was all very interesting to read!

Greebos left eye
Greebos left eye
1 year ago

Someone needs to keep an eye on OP or at least get his ex some sort of protective service, because he seems to be revving himself up for something.

Or he’s looking for an excuse not to pay child support.

WhiskeyTagngoFoxtrot
WhiskeyTagngoFoxtrot
1 year ago

@Cat Mara

Good goddess, thank you for that!

It’s times like this that I wish I knew some authors. I wouldn’t write it myself because it’s not my story to tell (me being a cis presenting, genderqueer white dude) but I would read the shit out of a book about a woman having “one bad day” that just tore it and going bat shit on society at large

And, anyone, *PLEASE* tell me if this is already a thing. I need more new books to read

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Katamount

And meanwhile, when they’re not demolishing buildings, people are committing travesties like the one happening to the Chateau Laurier in Ottawa. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/chateau-laurier-addition-final-site-plan-approved-1.5173652

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
1 year ago

@Surplus to Requirements, Rabid Rabbit:
Well, as I said, City Council has workarounds to that problem, involving simply not putting it on the agenda to start with. Not an optimal solution, but it works, at least when it gets used.

As for temporary injunctions… that may require provincial or federal support, since the city’s ability to pass local laws is pretty limited. And I think we can safely say that provincial support would not be happening under the current government.

I’ll always remember an argument I got into with my old landlord, who was born in England. He complained that Canadians have no deep concept of time. “They think a hundred years old is really old.” I responded that I’d grant him that if he granted that the English have no real concept of distance, as they think a hundred kilometers is really far away. He eventually just went, “That’s fair.”

@GrumpyOld SocialJusticeMangina:
You want a North American city with narrow winding streets like a European city, go for the old city of Québec City. Founded 1608.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

@Jenora

That’s great, I’ll have to remember that one. I’m still amazed at the Brits who think a five-hour journey is long.