By David Futrelle
The “involuntarily” celibate fellows who’ve branded themselves incels may not be getting any sex, but that doesn’t stop them from thinking, and theorizing, about sex, much in the way someone blind from birth might theorize about what it’s like to see.
Over on the Incels.co forums, the regulars recently found themselves in a debate on the apparently controversial (amongst incels) proposition “Does Female pleasure matter?”
The fellow asking the question, an Incels.co regular with more than 400 comments to his name, feels that the only correct answer is “no.”
“I’ve been thinking, objectively the purpose for sex is to reproduce,” Salutextm began.
Men essentially enjoy this since they need to climax for reproduction to happen in light of the fact that the nerves that make sex feel pleasurable are in the head of the Penis. So a male’s pleasure is truly essential and will happen more often than not.
Ok, so far so good. We need to reproduce to keep our species going, so evolution has evidently designed sex to be fun so we’ll do it.
But I couldn’t think of any natural reason for the female orgasm or female pleasure.
Wait, what? Putting aside the fact that women do tend to enjoy sex at least as much as men, rendering the entire debate moot, why wouldn’t it be evolutionarily important for women to enjoy sex just like men? After all, don’t they have to agree to sex for sex to occur?
Oh, wait, I think I know where he’s going here.
That is to say, women don’t need to experience any pleasure for reproduction to occur. They simply must be there and take the man’s seed.
That … only makes sense if you assume that evolution has designed men to be rapists and women to be rape victims.
Female pleasure is as of now, harder to accomplish than male due to placement of nerve endings (clitoris) and hormonal differences (testosterone)
Well, I’m no expert on hormones or nerve endings but my informal studies and, er, fieldwork, have suggested to me that female sexual pleasure isn’t some weird unattainable thing seen rarely in nature, like the snow leopard or a Trump supporter who isn’t a racist.
So for what reason do people feel like its the man’s fault for a woman not getting off when their pleasure isn’t to be prioritized to begin with? Naturally, their pleasure doesn’t even matter. Or at least I couldn’t find any reason as to why it would
And with that attitude, you’re probably never going to see female sexual pleasure in the wild.
In another thread, Salutextm cited the results of a weird and tiny study of literally only 15 college couples — which found levels of the so-called “love hormone” oxytocin decreasing in the women after kissing — as proof that women really don’t enjoy this rather common sexual activity that women, on average, definitely do enjoy, in many cases, like, a lot.
“Do women subject themselves to things they don’t want to do for some ulterior motive?” he asked, baffled.
Why else would women engage with men if they do not find most men physically sexually attractive … or barely receive any physical sexual pleasure in most acts involving their man?
Not all the commenters on Incels.co agreed with Salutextm’s hypotheses.
“All a Woman wants is to be fucked hard by Chad and then ignored,” declared IAmJAcksBrokenHeart.
A commenter called Huntedbyhate went even further, suggesting that the fact that women do feel sexual pleasure was really the heart of the problem. His proposed “solution” to this alleged problem was rather gruesome.
“I wish that all females had their clits cut off so they couldn’t experience pleasure,” he wrote. “More foids for us and fewer for Chad.”
It’s not altogether clear why he thinks the “foids” — that is, women — who’ve had their genitals forcibly mutilated would flock to the men who had actually called for this horrific practice. But that’s incel logic for you.
Despite these critics, a significant portion of the commenters seemed to agree that female pleasure doesn’t matter, or at the very least it shouldn’t.
“Their pleasure doesn’t matter,” asserted Danzai. “Foids were made to make babies, not enjoy themselves in it.”
“Why would the pleasure of a toilet matter?” added Insomniac.
Once again, the regulars on Incels.co have made it clear why the women who are refusing to have sex with them — which would be all women, everywhere, on planet earth — are making the right decision.
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@wwth: In addition to what others have said, I believe I remember reading that orgasm makes the vagina less alkaline and thus less chemically hostile to sperm.
Incels also seem to have a bizarre belief that unless the penis is central to every sexual activity, it’s a waste of time. They seem to particularly hate cunnilingus, presumably because they can’t imagine it as being anything other than revolting, and what possible use can a sex act be that gives her pleasure? The notion that it might also be exceptionally pleasurable for the giver as well as the receiver (not least because it’s one of the only sexual activities that stimulates all five senses directly, simultaneously and overwhelmingly) doesn’t seem to compute at all.
Many years ago (we’re talking the last century with over a decade still to run), I had a relationship with a woman who made it very clear that she didn’t want to be penetrated vaginally, or at least not any deeper than the introitus. Whether this was because she was saving herself for her husband or suffered from a physical condition such as vaginismus, I don’t know – but she was adamantly clear about what her boundaries were, and I respected them.
Not least because it made surprisingly little difference to what was otherwise a terrific sex life. Indeed, the fact that the old in-out was off the menu forced us to come up with imaginative alternatives – and the more or less total elimination of any chance of her getting pregnant (my biggest sex-related fear for a great many years) was a wonderfully disinhibiting factor as well.
“The purpose of sex is reproduction”, but you don’t see incels moaning about how much they look forward to becoming fathers and how unfair it is that they’re prevented from having children. Statements like that are just a fig leaf for their desire to hurt women.
They talk about sex in such crassly mechanical and transactional terms, I doubt they get much pleasure from it either. It’s just a way of keeping score.
> Mike
Let say persons with a penis, i think it is more accurate. But, yes, orgasm not needed for the semen to spill out, even if they are often linked. It is quite clear with “night pollution” (wet dreams ? Which are not necessarily pink dreams) and premature ejaculation. And this is also why, as you certainly can not say a person with a vagina enjoyed being raped because the person was “wet here”, you can not say a person with a penis enjoyed being raped because ejaculation. Sperm release is just the result of some neural signals, which are quite hard to control.
Gahhh! I can’t decide whether this is depressing, nauseating, or enraging me. What’s the probably German word that encompasses all three reactions? There are people out there who actually think this way, and actually log in to a site, write this stuff down, and then hit “send” so that everyone else knows what they think, instead of keeping the ugly to themselves. These men must know how revolting they are. I guess that explains their deep, bitter self loathing. But why live like that? Why not do something, anything, that will make the bitter go away?
Most normal people *want* their partners to enjoy sex with them.
>>>>>They talk about sex in such crassly mechanical and transactional terms, I doubt they get much pleasure from it either. It’s just a way of keeping score.
What sex? It’s incels we’re taking about. What is pathetic is that their *imaginary* sex is like having a go with a blow-up doll.
So long as it’s a fantasy, your think they’ll at least imagine themselves having a good one – satisfying dozens of nubile nymphomaniacs or whatever. But nooooo, it’s “how I can hurt her”.
Speaking from first-hand experience, there’s very little practical difference: a man post-vasectomy will still ejaculate seminal fluid, and it looks broadly similar in terms of consistency and volume (maybe fractionally less, but not much), the crucial difference being the absence of live spermatozoa. But the only way you can be certain of this difference is with the aid of a microscope.
@Anonymous
I’d never really spent much time in my life thinking about sex dolls, but if I had, I’d always have assumed that they were, all things considered, a force for good. I mean, why go for a full sex doll when you could just buy a fleshlight? The answer that came to mind was that you can’t really cuddle with a fleshlight. Sex dolls, on the other hand, I could see as being like adult teddy bears, probably good for people with very strong intimacy issues, and so on.
Then I started reading WHTM and found out there are people who make a living just from repairing sex dolls whose owners have used them too violently, and came to the conclusion that I really, really don’t understand how some men view sex.
If they frame the argument that sex is exclusively for reproduction, they’re technically correct.
Here’s an accessible review of the technicalities and a decent reference: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2016/08/02/the-mystery-of-the-orgasm/
HOWEVER, saying that sex is only for reproduction is like saying that eating is only for nutrient acquisition, so drink your nutrient slurry and be happy with it.
Totally off topic, but I want to predict a future post. There is one moment in ENDGAME that is certain to set off the usual suspects, and we will be getting a lot of toxic tweets and Reddit posts about it. I will not describe it, but I think I can quote the relevant line without it being much of a spoiler:
“She’s not alone!”
I think, and I apologize for putting this out here, the toilet thing is referring to an old and unpleasant joke about a toilet not needing a cuddle after you’ve used it.
Yeah, I didn’t need a man present to get pregnant (thank you donors) and all the best sex I have had has been non procreative, so yet again 10/10 for lack of imagination and basic humanity you incel fucks.
@Ellesar
Incel not-fucks, surely. According to them, that’s the sum of their problems, after all.
@Turan, Emissary of the Fly World
Oh, I so LOVED that moment! There is only one moment in that movie that I loved more and that was namtna gnihcnup eht yks elahw (read backwards for a silly spoiler).
I wonder if there’s much overlap between incels and the consumers of Soylent?
Sorry Rabid – non fucks of course!
@Nequam
I doubt it. It has the word “soy” in it.
Call it MANtrition, and don’t let them see the ingredient list, and then yes, probably.
The way these people view women is just vile and it’s a special kind of evil to those who think women incapable of feeling pleasure (and not deserving any if they could) but still consider sex a human right for themselves.
So, sorry if I’m straying off topic now, but remember how I railed against the insane misogyny of the 2018 Das Boot TV-series some time ago, and even went and made an account and tried posting a user review on imdb?
Well, it turns out that any of my attempts to add info that the show contained several rape scenes to the parent’s guide fell flat (but my comment on there being a brutal execution scene got put up on the page, some kind of double standard?), but most frustrating of all, the review I wrote never showed up among the user reviews.
It’s just so frustrating, that after all work submitting the review, it’s not showing, and there’s been several days already. Anyone here know what I’m doing wrong?
Incels don’t have a theory of mind, do they?
Time for them to relabel themselves, because it all sounds pretty voluntary after all.
It’s totally voluntary. The absolute barest minimum requirement for making yourself attractive to the opposite sex is to start treating them as actual human beings with interesting viewpoints and their own agency.
If you’re not even prepared to surmount that infinitesimally tiny hurdle, indeed, if you underscore your refusal to compromise by using deliberately othering terms like “femoids” then you’re celibate entirely by choice.
Look at Elliot Rodger – I read every page of his “manifesto”, and at no point did I see him actually making a proactive effort to talk to women or engage with them on any meaningful level. It was apparently their failure to recognise that the guy sitting in the far corner of the café giving off “don’t come near me” vibes was in fact a “supreme gentleman” that led to his killing spree, despite the fact that this interpretation required them to be psychic.
Well, if women are toilets, then it follows that incels are assholes, whose sole purpose in life is to push out excrement. Thanks for verifying what we already knew, incels!
In some things, men *are* discriminated against in – they are seen as wimps or losers if they stay at home to raise the children, for example.
But those who want to make it acceptable for men to be stay-at-home dads do not want to harm women in any way. If their goal will be achieved it’ll be a win/win situation for both men and women.
Which is precisely why the “men’s rights” “activists” don’t care about it: it involves helping men, not harming women.
>>>>>Well, if women are toilets, then it follows that incels are assholes
Who said the incels are never right?
I’m reminded of the Anti-Sex League in “Nineteen Eighty-Four”. They weren’t against sex as such, because the Party needed new cogs; they promoted the idea that sexual activity was a dirty, degrading act. It should properly involve no pleasure to either partner, reproduction was the sole purpose, and the ultimate goal was the elimination of the orgasm entirely.
Cindy – to be honest, I didn’t really develop a theory of mind until I was in my late twenties. But I made an effort to *behave* as if I did, because I saw what people who didn’t were like and didn’t want to be like them.