By David Futrelle
Remember this guy? Once upon a time, Paul Elam, founder of the misogynistic hate site A Voice for Men and once one of the world’s more (in)famous Men’s Rights activists, was a mainstay in the virtual pages of We Hunted the Mammoth.
Then the Men’s Rights movement in general, and Elam in particular, was upstaged by even more reprehensible misogynist movements from Gamergate to the alt-right. In 2016, having trouble raising money to keep his site and himself going, Elam naturally declared victory and announced he was retiring from the Men’s Rights activism industry.
In 2017, he unretired, but he’s never regained his former, er, glory. Still, he soldiers on. He continues to post videos on YouTube on his A Near for Men An Ear for Men channel. He offers $120 an hour “consulting” services via Skype to men on such subjects as “relationship issues” (he has no training as a therapist), “divorce strategies” (he’s not a lawyer) and “diabetes management” (he’s not a doctor). And he continues to share his “Red Pill” wisdom on Facebook and Twitter, the latter of which he’s returned to on a new account despite being permabanned some time ago.
So why am I even bringing him up? Well, I ran across this recent, uh, insight from him and I thought I should share it with you.
MRAs claim to care about abused men, but don’t actually do anything to help them in any tangible way, like setting up hotlines or shelters. (The only shelter for men in the US was set up by a feminist Domestic Violence organization that MRAs once tried to defund.) Instead, MRAs post shit like this, conflating actual abusive behavior by women with, well, women expecting to be treated with a modicum of consideration by their male partners.
But of course “wisdom” like this resonates with Elam’s remaining fans.
A veritable Algonquin Round Table here, huh?
I scrolled back a little on his Twitter, and found a couple more #RedPillRelationships pearls from ol’ Paul:
So thoughtful, so wise!
In case you’re wondering — I was — Elam’s A Voice for Men continues, though it’s not altogether clear who’s involved in running it these days. It squeezes out a few articles a week, which seem to consist of turgid exegeses of “gynocentrism” alternating with the sort of outrage-bait AVFM used to be semi-famous for.
Paul himself contributes from time to time. In February, for example, he wrote a 64-word post titled “A message to Democrats from Paul Elam and A Voice for Men” in which he declared that anyone voting for a Democrat is
literally voting for the murder of children. Given that, it is the editorial position of A Voice for Men that you should have been aborted, you degenerate Nazi fuck.
Other recent posts on the site have included such gems as:
And then there are all of … these.
I have no idea what’s going on with these, or why there are so many of them, but I don’t care enough to read any of them to find out.
So, big congratulations to Paul Elam and to A Voice for Men for continuing to exist, I guess, despite there being no real need for either or you.
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I don’t do this and I don’t know a single woman who does. Perhaps you are only asking out shallow women? Given the manosphere’s obsession with declaring only women who comply with current beauty standards attractive, this is a pretty safe bet.
Yeah, if you go to a family court ranting about the evils of women, it might work against you. At least that’s what I’m guessing by “transmit your values.”
Why are you putting cheap and abusive together? Those are entirely different things. There are certain instances in which withholding money might be abusive. Such as insisting your spouse be a stay at home mother and then insisting on controlling all of the money so that she’s trapped and under your thumb. No one would call not lavishing extravagant gifts on your girlfriend abuse though. You might be called cheap if you’re a shitty tipper or when you split the bill at dinner, you quibble over every cent.
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A lot more straight women would be ‘in the mood’ if they weren’t doing the lion’s share of the housework and the majority of the emotional labor.
On top of that, straight men have a tendency to stop being affectionate with their partners and to still expect them to just be up for sex whenever anyway. Straight men also have a tendency to react negatively to their partners introducing new things into sexy-times. Some men are upset by vibrators, and some women can only orgasm with a vibrator.
Straight women have the fewest orgasms. Female sexuality is still fundamentally misunderstood or ignored.
But, hey, they’re not having sex with you just because they’re big meanies, right?
Yes, what even is the point of having children if you can’t make them into little disciples? Great question, 10/10.
Also can we just contrast these two statements for a sec?
So consensual sex between two+ people outside of the bounds of a relationship, bad. Pressuring someone to have sex when they don’t want to within the bounds of a relationship, good. Neat.
@Hey, Rhuu.
So, I’ll give you paragraphs. As to the borderline, she was diagnosed; that’s just descriptive, not normative. It is a dangerous disease for the person and those around usually her. NPD is male. 15% is about accurate as well.
I don’t think women are money grubbers, but men have been conditioned to be providers and protectors, and women (even feminists) have come to expect that. And women are human. They will, like anybody else, target opportunities. The state helps them to take advantage of these opportunities.
Well, as to the career thing, I’m Ivy. And I worked very hard to attain that. I also have a Ph.D. ditto. I happened to respect the other person and helped her. She didn’t respect me at all. She didn’t work all that hard. I did. So, no, I don’t think I want to or need to put my career above hers. And a decade after we split, I’ve outproduced her despite enormous odds.
As for helping the woman (a different one), I paid for her therapy. I paid for her kids. I did help with rent. As a guy, I would have been called cheap and awful if I hadn’t. If the gender roles had been reversed, a woman would have been encouraged to dump me immediately. I took care of her kids too. We weren’t married, and I assumed a lot of responsibilities. It was a complete waste in so many ways. Let them take care of themselves.
No, women aren’t inscrutable forces of nature. Women have a biological impulse to gather resources. That’s normal. The culture has changed too much, though, to make this a reciprocal exchange.
@Viscara.
I’m not sure if you’ve read Becker’s work. We all want to replicate. Sure, I would want my children to have my values just as my parents wanted me to have theirs. I don’t simply want to donate sperm and money. Thank you, no. 60 years ago, my desire would have been called wanting to be a good father. What exactly is wrong with that desire? Do you not want to transmit your values and your name? I’m sure you do.
Pressure to have sex: Nobody should ever pressure anybody to have sex. You can ask, but everyone has a right to say no. I’ve been pressured by women. I don’t think anybody should pressure anybody. Personally, I’ve told women no, but I wasn’t doing it to change behavior or get what I want.
Thanks for engaging me. Take care.
@Weirdwood
Thank you for your response. You might not ask. Many do. Most of my male friends have had women tell them that they don’t make enough money by at least one woman. And, yes, my male friends are professionals. Most women are trying to see if you’re a good potential provider. I get the biological impulse to do this. It’s normal. But it’s as demeaning to men as undressing someone with your eyes is to women. I’m a full human being.
I’ve never been through family court. Many of my friends have. And they’ve had their heads pretty much chopped off. There’s a movie called Divorce Corp. that seems to be pretty accurate.
Thank you again for your response.
Boring troll is boring.
We do, yes. In fact, I’ve been meaning to ask if anyone has brick they’re willing to trade? I have wool and ore.
@Doug
Hey, re borderline: your ignorance is showing.
I happen to meet the criteria. But with me people call it C-PTSD, because I got lucky. Guess where BPD comes from, and guess who gets diagnosed with it. (And stigmatized for it even when they learn to manage it safely, which is quite possible thank you. There is literally a whole system of therapy originally designed for this, it’s called DBT.)
“No, women aren’t inscrutable forces of nature. Women have a biological impulse to gather resources. That’s normal. The culture has changed too much, though, to make this a reciprocal exchange.”
… and men don’t have that impulse? Excuse me? Have you looked at who is hoarding most of the wealth, political power, and gold-plated yachts these days?
Doug: “We all want to replicate.”
Citation needed; assumes facts not in evidence.
@ cyborgette:
I am sorry for your pain, which I know you feel. I do know the difference between Complex PTSD and borderline personality disorder. BPD often has outright psychosis. The lying isn’t part of C-PTSD either. I know exactly how my person with BPD got it. Trust me, I do. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. That said, while I am sympathetic, I can tell you the havoc this creates in partners’ lives and in children’s lives. She tried to commit suicide four times when we were together. The mood swings were unbelievable. I paid for her DBT. It didn’t work. It often doesn’t. The real problem is really what this did to her children. The kids tend to mirror their parents or caregivers. Her oldest son did. He killed himself about four months ago. He hanged himself. Six years ago, she just said, “Bye.” She had no money, so I got her back to where she wanted to go. I don’t know much about her life since then. I was with the oldest boy from the time he was eight until he was 13. I saw her disorder begin in him. I was hoping it wouldn’t end this way. He was, when I knew him, very full life. Yes, I do know about borderline disorder. I do know what it does. I do know. I wish you well.
@Doug
You sure use a lot of politeness to make all that evo-psych nonsense and toxicity go down easier. No, Doug, it’s not “biological impulse to gather resources”, that is a necessity under capitalism. Same for finding a “stable” provider. And from how you talk about “replicating” and passing on your values, I think I can tell you why women were so interested in your money. It seems to be the most attractive part of this package.
OK, I’m going to depart, but I did want to respond.
@KND Women have to gather resources or have a male gather them because she’s vulnerable while she’s pregnant. And if she wants to stay at home with the child, she has to have a male provide while she does that. My mother worked before I was born. She didn’t work for ten years while she was raising me. My father had a bigger salary than she did because he had a different kind of job. My mother picked somebody who could help her. He was a fairly high wage earner. That’s a normal choice. But she also picked someone who was kind. And my father picked someone who was loyal. I haven’t personally attacked anybody. Are you trying to provoke me? I’m not going to attack you back. Both sides do far too much of that. What good would that do?
@Robert: so, when I say replicate, I don’t always mean through children. Clearly, some people do this through work, art, etc, teaching. But Ernst Becker, in the Denial of Death, talks about how we all have immortality projects. Having children is one immortality project. It’s not the only. Thank you for engaging with me.
Women expect that less than ever because we can make our own livings now. Do you even know any feminists? I don’t know a single woman who expects men to provide for them. Feminists with male partners do tend to expect that they contribute something to the relationship/household. Not necessarily the bulk of the money. There’s finances, domestic work and emotional labor. That will be divided differently depending on the couple. It can even be subject to change depending on periods of illness or unemployment. But no, generally women, particularly feminists do not expect men to do everything while they sit around and eat bonbons. You need to back this assertion up.
Bullshit. It is not the norm for men to be expected to pay rent or health expenses for a non live in partner. If she was a live in partner, then of course you were expected to chip in with the rent and domestic work. That’s what a relationship is. If you don’t want a relationship, fair enough. But it’s not wrong for women (or men or non-binary folk) to expect a domestic partner or spouse to be an actual partner.
No we don’t. I don’t.
You know what you haven’t mentioned here? Love. Good parents (whatever their gender) love their children and care for them. Whether or not you’re able to “transmit your values.” Kids are human beings. They’re not going to be a clone of you. That’s okay. It’s even desirable.
I’m a woman. So are most, if not all of the people responding to you. Don’t presume you know us better than we know ourselves. Let me ask, what type of woman do you and your friends go for? From your comments, it seems to me like you’re the type of person who values status. Assuming you’re being truthful about yourself (that’s a big assumption, but for the sake of argument I’ll give it to you) you’ve worked your “Ivy” status into the conversation and brought up how you and your friends are “professionals.” It seems important to you that people know that you’re successful by the standards of capitalistic culture*. Since birds of a feather flock together, your friends are likely similar. Success, by your paradigm would include a trophy wife/girlfriend, yeah? Aspiring trophy wives certainly exist. They are not the norm. They are not the majority. Perhaps you and your friends should look for traits like kindness, intelligence, humor, common interests instead of you know, hotness and status seeking.
I’m aro myself, but the majority of my friends and acquaintances are married. They all have relationships based on more than looks and money and they’re all pretty happy in their relationships. Try not viewing relationships as transactionships (typo and it stays because, hey! I made up a word!) and if a meaningful non-gold digging relationship is what you want, you may just find it.
* Are those the fucking values you’re so eager to transmit? Color me unimpressed.
Do you think KND doesn’t already know the standard evopsych drivel? I can almost guarantee they (sorry KND, I don’t know your pronouns) do. Everyone who comments here does.
If you actually knew anything about hunter-gatherer cultures or cultures in developing areas, you’d know that women in these cultures do quite a bit of work while pregnant and nursing. Stay at home mothering is a luxury of wealthy and industrialized societies. For all your claims that you’ve worked so hard and overcome all the odds, you’re clearly from a privileged background and it shows.
ETA: That was an awfully fast flounce. You couldn’t hack it here, huh?
@weirdtree hugger.
Yes, I do know feminists. I don’t want to name them. One you’ve probably read was my Ph.D. advisor. She was second wave and pretty destructive. She was divorced twice. I dated another one, also a Ph.D., who had been divorced twice. She was an anthropologist.I saw a pattern here. As to my values: sure academic achievement is one. I don’t come from the normal Ivy League background. So, yes, I am proud of it. I think I’m prouder of the volunteer work I did for Amnesty International on helping to abolish the death penalty. I helped to coordinate our birthday cards to deathrow inmates project. I–along with the four women I worked with–won a major award from Amnesty. I’m proud of the letter writing we did on behalf of prisoners of conscience. More important, we helped 300 people on Florida’s death row. I also believe in helping people to achieve their best. I’ve helped thousands of students to do just that. I believe in love. Why else would I spend time raising two boys who weren’t my own? Why else would I–against all common sense–try to help to somebody who was in deep, deep psychological trouble. Most people would have run screaming. I like a challenge, and I believed in love enough to try. So, if you’re waiting for me to tell you I’m some Neo Nazi, I’m not going to.
This is my last post. I hope I was respectful but honest.
@Doug
Hi Ivy, I’m Dad.
Yes, why don’t we let children take care of themselves? Oh, right, because they’re children and they literally cannot. So what you really mean is, let women take care of children without any involvement from you.
60 years ago, good parenting was defined as wanting to slap your label on your kids and convince them to believe the same things you believe? Jeez. Not, like, taking care of them? Encouraging them to think for themselves, grow into their own people? Supporting them? Trusting them? Believing in them so that they learn to believe in themselves?
Would I like to transmit my name? You are fantasizing about parenthood as it was 60 years ago, and you’re asking me whether I dream of passing on my name to my children?? Do you not see the disconnect there? I, at least, had a choice, unlike the women of 1959, but, no, my kids will not be carrying my ancestral name.
You were a disingenuous asshole. Do stick the flounce.
You were not respectful. No matter how you say it, calling women crazy, lazy gold diggers.
I doubt you were honest either. The more you try to list your accomplishments, the more you sound like you’re full of shit.
A rich ivy league educated philanthropist, so trust you when you tell us that women are just out for men’s money? Right. Sounds totally legit.
Incidentally, I’m watching American Psycho right now and it’s a little disturbing how much you kind of sound like Patrick Bateman.
That was really a nothing troll. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he was working from a checklist.
Is American Psycho any good? I’ve seen clips but never watched the whole thing.
The book is skippable because Bret Easton Ellis is trash, but the movie is brilliant.
@Doug
I’m reflecting what I read, Doug. It’s pretty clear that you see relationships as transactions. That might offend you, but sorry, from how you formulate it, I see someone who does charitable things buy social capital and goes beyond the norm in the name of hegemonic masculinity, not a sincere desire to help.
Weirwoodtreehugger already said it better than I could have: That kind of mindset doesn’t lend itself to sincere and loving relationships.
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
Since a few weeks ago, I use “they”. Thank you, felt nice 🙂
(God, you too got the American Psycho vibe? I was more on “Nightcrawler” though)
Glad I stumbled onto the correct pronoun 🙂
Every time an MRA starts talking about “resources,” I picture a crowd of blue-haired women chasing a man down the street while chanting “We require more Vespene gas.”
contrapangloss I scrolled thru waiting to see the first person to call that shit out. Thank you and everyone else who did.