By David Futrelle
So, you ask, or maybe you don’t, what are the incels on Reddit getting mad about today? Well, at least seventy of them — to judge by their upvotes — are getting pig-biting mad at a cartoon by a woman who enjoys having her hair pulled during sex.
Specifically, this cartoon:
Posting the cartoon in the Braincels subreddit under the thoughtful title “All girls grow up into degenerate whores who crave to be dominated by Chad,” the incel Redditor who calls himself ASS_F declared:
All this because of … hair pulling? Hair pulling.
Jesus, dude, hair pulling is one of the most garden-variety fetishes out there, so common it barely even rates as a fetish. In terms of “degeneracy” it’s probably up there with “earlobe nibbling” or “nipple pinching.”
But, apparently trying to prove to the world that they can get mad about literally anything, some of the commenters in the thread were less angry about a cartoon character who enjoys getting her hair pulled than they were about the hypothetical cartoon character they imagined was doing the pulling — assuming that the (possibly) Asian woman in the cartoon was dating a Chadly white dude rather than an Asian guy of similar attractiveness.
![ldar_ricecel 16 points 6 hours ago
Girl in the pic looks like a typical noodlewhore too, being fucked by Chad instead of her looksmatch Asian.
permalinksavereportreply
[–]UggoBoss 14 points 6 hours ago
her looksmatch is probably hanging on a tree.](https://i2.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/xdtycfugtviyhk.png?fit=600%2C381)
Yes, this self-described “Ricecel” is an Asian guy calling Asian women “noodlewhores.”
AMAF, by the way, means “Asian Male/Asian Female.”
As fucked as all that is, it’s not quite as fucked at the comment by this guy, who decided to use this thread as an opportunity to expound upon his vision of the ideal heterosexual relationship.
Huh. I thought the Reddit admins had banned all the hate subreddits. I guess none of this counts as hate?
We Hunted the Mammoth is independent and ad-free, and relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!
@Bookworm in hijab:
Or they were one of the bullies, and they had it easy by forcing all the difficulties onto other people.
It’s not so much that they want to be that age again. They want to be living in the world they thought they were living in at the time. They thought their Sci-Fi was free of politics because they were too young to read the subtext into it, they thought the world was free of racism because they were shielded from it, they thought the dad-who-works and mom-who-stays-home was ideal because their parents didn’t let on that it was difficult for them, etc.
Instead of looking to the past and saying, “wow, I sure missed a lot of clues when my brain was still developing” they say, “wow, today sucks, I miss yesteryear.”
@ Kupo and Jenora Feuer, absolutely. I just have a deep and abiding hatred for the “childhood is the best years of your life!” thing. It’s like, are they saying life is all downhill after about age fourteen?!
I mean, I DO know what they’re trying to evoke, and of course a sheltered childhood is easy (from an adult perspective, or the perspective of anyone not sheltered; to the sheltered-kids themselves I’m sure the problems loom large.). I just hate this myth. And Kupo, i think you’re right that they want to live in their imagined childhood, but their adult-perspective on their childhood issues (does that make sense? I’m fighting off a bad cold and I think I’m a bit out of it…)
@ Lainy, I must admit that most of my experience with American accents comes from the northeastern states, bar that one teacher and the American tourists I sometimes encountered in Europe, but I am trying to picture (?) this! ? I would LOVE to visit the USA. Only not anytime soon. Sigh.
I also hate having my hair pulled under any circumstances, because for me it sends me straight back into being-bullied-on-the-playground and I find nothing sexy about that. But other people aren’t me and they feel different things.
Also, I just wanted to say that liking hair-pulling isn’t necessarily submissive. Some people like it because that sort of pain feels sexual to them, but they don’t like feeling humiliated as such (and in the right sexual context, don’t find hair-pulling humiliating). Others like both the pain and the humiliation. Others like it as a signal of someone else dominating them, but are neutral about the pain. And so on. Pretty much any combo is possible.
Just popping in to say, yes individual people have agency in what they consent to doing sexually, regarding BDSM and everything else. However – and this is a separate point that I think Scanosaurus was trying to make (though if I’ve got it wrong, correction is welcome)- societal norms DO have an influence on what an individual may find arousing. There are stats from various common porn sites that show that in places where, say, homosexuality is criminalized, those areas will have higher search totals per capita than in places where homosexuality is not criminalized. There might be a lot of different reasons for those stats – such as it simply not being safe for gay folk to go out and find a partner, thus turn to porn as an outlet – or might speak to common reverse psychology, when the kink is not a literal threat to one’s freedom and well-being.
In the US, the society might not even be by region but by social values. For example, there was a recent-ish article that said progressives tend to be more likely to watch BDSM porn, while conservatives were more likely to watch infidelity porn. It has to do with what is considered ‘forbidden fruit’ and thus more tantalizing, depending on what kind of values one lives with. Depending on whether marriage vows or active consent is your real-life jam, the idea of breaking those bounds more likely to be your kink – though ‘more likely’ is not ‘definitely always.’
Thus, while it might be a general patriarchal norm that women are ‘supposed’ to be generally submissive, for people who define themselves as feminist, being a femme sub might be seen by other feminists as taboo; but for the patriarchal society that a feminist lives in, they are simply ‘proving’ the ‘norm’ of female submission. It’s a tough spot that draws backlash for different reasons from all sides, and if I’m grasping the concept right, I think that’s what Scanosaurus was getting at.
Society shapes people but does not define people totally. They take on things, even at a subconscious level, for good or ill. If one is an intersectional sort, this should be pretty basic, as it is the reason why even people who consider themselves ‘not racist’ still have ingrained racist attitudes. Not to imply that femme-subs or cuckolding-enthusiasts have to try to change themselves the way racists ought to, but it is the same mechanism at work.
I just want to clarify that I’m not trying to condemn any individual women who want to be submissive or a housewife, but I wanted to criticize the way society magnifies and reinforces the prevalence of it, which I feel makes it harder for women who doesn’t fit the mold to break out of it, and I’ll leave it at that.
@Rhuu
Yes, looking at media, while I hope we can all agree that 50shades is garbage, the thing that frustrate me the most about it is that it isn’t an odd outlier in the stuff normally aimed at women, it’s just the poor writing that makes it much more obvious, but women falling for stalking and controlling men who are far more powerful than them is still a staple in the genre.
And then there’s also the disgusting trope of women falling in love with their rapists, and it’s not bdsm, but the “hero” literally forcing himself on the woman despite all her protests, and it’s ok because he was handsome and she ended up enjoying it anyway.
I’m not surprised to see this trope in old and horribly dated adventure stories aimed at men, but seeing it everywhere in stuff explicitly made by and for women is messed up, and it often all boils down to the gross idea that even in their own fantasies, women shouldn’t be actively pursuing sex or expressing their own desires, but they need someone to force them to do it in order to get to enjoy sex.
@Bookworm
Yes, it’d be fun to be able to have a blog where I could make my own posts instead of just responding to others, but at the same time I’m worried discussing the topics that interests me, like feminism, video games and history, could attract trolls and creeps, and I’m not sure if I have the strength to counter and moderate bad comments on my own.
One of the biggest reasons I’ve felt comfortable sharing my thoughts here is because it’s a well moderated comments section and even when I say stuff that many disagree with I don’t have to feel afraid of being creeped on, threathened or harassed, and I’m not sure how to avoid that if I were to start a blog of my own.
If anyone here who do have their own blog want to share their thoughts I’m all ears.
@ Scanisaurus, I get it! I had a blog for a while several years ago. I mostly dropped it because I was too lazy to maintain it, but it did draw the occasional creeps. I mostly blocked and ignored them, but I can’t say it didn’t leave a mark (especially when they were just ruder about things that politicians say anyways; I could never just dismiss them as weirdo outliers…)
I’ve often thought of starting it up again, though. With super-high privacy settings! If I do I’ll let you know.
I must be living a sheltered life. It never occured to me to pull a woman’s hair during sex.
@Bookworm
That’s good to know, I’d love to read your blog if you start it again.
If you are curious I’m also active in the AGS community, the nicer corners of reddit and deviantart, though even there you get the occasional weirdo. It’s frustrating how hypocritical most “free speech” pundits are, happily defending neo-nazis or sexually harassing creeps, but ignoring those who want to speak out but doesn’t out of fear of the former types.
Scanisaurus –
Nancy Friday, who investigated women’s sexual fantasies, found that rape fantasy is a species of BDSM fantasy, to wit, some women fantasize of being controlled during sex. (“Fantasy” is of course the operative word here.) What she also found out, incidentally, is that very few women fantasize about being prostitutes.
Both findings make sense: women usually see sex as more meaningful and significant than men, so some women need to be “forced” (in their fantasies) to take the plunge and “do it”. For just this reason, they typically do not enjoy fantasizing about just being available, like prostitutes are.
The problem with Friday’s studies – which she acknowledges – is that the sample is self-selected. It is made up of those *who replied to her request for fantasies*, which may well be different than the average woman, or for that not be women at all but, say, teenage pranksters. But one can hardly go around forcing randomly-selected women to reveal their sexual fantasies to strangers to correct this methodological problem!
@Anonymous
Please don’t use the word “prostitute.” Use “sex worker” instead.
TMI warning: when I was younger I had rape fantasies. It was because I found sex and especially sexual arousal embarrassing and had lots of issues with enjoying sex as a result (thanks, media representation of women’s sexuality!). The fantasy that I had zero control made me feel free to enjoy it. Obviously it was not a fantasy I ever wanted to act upon.
Kupo – this seems to be what Friday’s saying. As you yourself day, it hardly means you really wanted to be raped, of course. It means you wanted to *lose control*, and the imaginary “rapist” allowed you to do that.
But I disagree about prostitutes being “workers”. Letting random strangers penetrate your body on a daily basis for money is not “work”. It is serial legal rape, even if the “worker” is forced into it financially and not physically. You wouldn’t call a slave an “involuntary unpaid worker”, would you?
@Anonymous
Please refer tothe comments policy. Anti-sex-work talk is not welcomed here.
This trope got less common in romance novels as more women got into powerful positions in publishing. ‘Rape romance’ is now a tiny niche, like outlaw biker romance or hockey romance.
@Anonymous – I don’t understand this. You seem to be simultaneously denying sex workers’ agency and judging them for doing the wrong thing (“letting random strangers,” etc.).
I’m sorry if I’m taking too harsh a tone, but can’t you see the unfairness and logical inconsistency there? (For example, if people are forced into sex, how could you judge them for making a wrong choice?)
Plus, it sounds like there are some assumptions that need to be examined. Not all sex work involves “penetration” and the “random strangers” phrase sounds dismissive and snobbish. 🙁
@Anonymus
My thoughts exactly.
@kupo
I have never enjoyed rape fantasies myself, and I don’t ever want to enjoy them, but I can definitively relate to feeling ashamed of my desires due to medias portrayal of women’s sexuality.
I have felt attracted to guy on guy stuff, and when I think about it I think a huge reason that came to be is because on some subconscious level, I felt that that was the only way I could picture an “equal” relationship* thanks to an upbringing filled with constant media bombardment of women being subordinate to their men, and literally smaller than them (being tall myself it was hard to relate to relationships in media when women are always dainty and petite and could be easily carried by their partners). But another big part is the massive double standard in male and female nudity and bodies, and media treating it like straight women aren’t actually interested in nude men unless they were massive perverts (but male attraction to female bodies is treated as ubiquitous), and I felt I could relate a lot whenever I heard gay men describe their feelings on being pressured to feel shame towards being attracted to male bodies or wanting to look at naked men.
*And a huge portion of fanfiction and Yaoi misses the point by just repeating all toxic romance tropes but gender-swapping the woman into an effeminate man
If you think I’ve been to harsh on women with submissive kinks it’s because I feel this frustration that however kinky and taboo they feel that stuff is, it’s still touted as something “nearly everybody does or wants to do” and nearly all mainstream romantic media caters to that stuff (even if subtly), meanwhile women that doesn’t fit into that are treated as non-existent, perverts or massively immature teens who just needs to grow out of it, and they are just some bizarre outlier.
And as for rape fantasies as a way to get past the shame of wanting sex, I think they are harmful because I feel that shame not only makes it harder for women to enjoy sex, but also because it also applies to other part of ones fantasies and imagination. I have also felt ashamed about enjoying video games with fighting in them, at first because I felt it was a “boy’s thing”, but also because I realize that they were power fantasies that were designed to make me feel strong and powerful and have fun with my power within the game world, because I didn’t feel ashamed or awkward admitting to liking Sims or games about cute animals, which were centered around building stuff up and caretaking.
@LindsayIrene
I think this supports the initial point I was trying to make, that when women are given more freedom many will move away from the stuff allotted to them by old gender stereotypes.
@Anonymous
I’ll warn you that if you try to argue against the normalization of purchasing sex in this forum, those opinions aren’t exactly welcome here and I learned it the hard way. I’ll just link this and this comments I’ve made and you can see the replies I got.
I just wanted to toss in a heads up on what kind of response you’ll get if you are going to argue your position on it.
Scanisaurus – you’re telling Anonymous that violating the comments policy will be met with criticism. That’s. . . helpful, I suppose?
The suggestion that the other commenters are meany-pants for the criticism is not.
@Robert
I just figured I could save everyone time and effort and avoid needless repitition.
I didn’t see how that would suggest you were mean, sorry if I put it too brashly.
Oh, fuck you for telling me the fantasies I had when I was younger were harmful. Do NOT fucking kink shame here.
And for the fucking record they made it easier for me to enjoy sex.
@kupo
I was trying to open up and share my honest thoughts and feelings on the difficulties I’ve felt on the matter, and I can say constantly hearing the message that being submissive or having rape fantasies are normal female experiences made me feel abnormal in turn, and I’m sick to death of constantly having to feel ashamed of wanting to feel in control of myself or doing something that I want and not feeling like I’m forced to accommodate everyone around me. And the harm I was talking about wasn’t the rape fantasies themselves, but the shame of women wanting sex that caused them, and while it didn’t take that form for me I’ve lived with that same goddamn shame my entire life, and I’m sick of it.
It just feels like any time I try to explain myself or my feelings on anything you twist everything I write as a personal attack on you. I’m not asking you to agree on anything I say or to stop arguing against me if you think I’m wrong, I just want you to remember that I’m just as much of a person as you and I too get sad, angry and tired, and I don’t feel any better seeing you upset whenever I make a mistake. I’ve already spent almost an hour writing this comment, reading and re-reading it trying to think how to formulate an answer that can prove to you that I’m not here to attack anyone.
I did not tell you how you should feel about those kinds of fantasies. I explained why I had those fantasies. You then proceeded to tell me your opinion on how those fantasies affect all women. And saying it’s normal to have them is not the same as saying it’s abnormal not to have them. It’s normal to have them. It’s normal not to have them. It’s normal to have all kinds of varied fantasies. It’s normal not to have any fantasies. No where did I tell you that you should be ashamed of wanting to feel in control. It’s normal and healthy to have fantasies of being in control. My saying I had different fantasies than yours doesn’t negate that.
Thing is, you keep taking personal statements people make and making them about you or about all women. They’re not. Me saying I had rape fantasies does not say all women have them. However, you’re telling me that my fantasies are harmful. You know, the thing you’re saying you’re sick and tired of people doing to you (that no one here actually did to you). You’re completely in the wrong here and you’re making this personal by using my fantasy as a jumping off point. Please stop.
@kupo
I brought up the subject before you did, but you’re right it was dumb and wrong of me to use a direct quote of you in my following comment.
And I didn’t want to say that your fantasies were harmful, I tried to say that the shaming that makes some women feel the need to create such fantasies before being able to enjoy sex is harmful. Do you think this kind of feeling of shame isn’t? I certainly felt that it harmed me.
I’ll bear it in mind. Part of it is this feeling of alienation, and my long struggle with not feeling normal and trying to convince myself that I am, and if it has made me wrongly generalize my own feelings I’ll try to change my wording on that. I’ve just felt rather bad lately, like I’m powerless and not in control of myself right now and I’m sorry if I’ve let my bad feelings spill over on you.
@Scanisaurus
Apology accepted. I do agree that the shame is harmful. It certainly made things more difficult for me. I’m sorry you’re struggling lately and hope you can get through it. You have nothing to feel ashamed of or abnormal about, and it’s unfair that women are constantly made to feel this way.
@kupo
Thank you, and I’m glad we could agree on that.