Incel Redditor: Women who like their hair pulled during sex “should be treated like livestock”

@Scanisaurus

It’s also not meant to be condescending I’m just America southern.

@Lainy

You literally stated here you think women don’t actually want to be dominated. They just go along with it.

That’s not what I meant. Firstly, I said the amount would be lower, not non-existent. Secondly, to go back to my comparison on the color pink, I also believe that in a more equal society, a lot less young girls would pick pink as their favorite color, but that doesn’t mean I think they are forced to pick pink in our society, rather that a large amount of exposure to the color and being given a lot of toys in that color will make them more likely to choose it as their favorite. Our upbringing and society around us do affect our choices.

It’s also not meant to be condescending I’m just America southern.

I didn’t know, I’ll bear it in mind next time.
@kupo
I consider myself a feminist, and I came here because I genuinely wanted to be able to discuss different feminist opinions without worrying about facing hate just for being an outspoken woman myself. There are different schools of feminism and I do realize the debate looks different in different countries and I’m not an American myself, but I wanted to see different points of view. And I did back down in the argument on sex work and I stopped using all words that people said were dehumanizing.

@Bookworm in hijab
Yeah, it’s been the subject of a lot of debate in my homeland, and the reason 25% of the paternity leave was made exclusively reserved for the father (the rest being up to the parents to decide) in order to try and break the loop.

I don’t have a blog of my own, and I don’t really have any know-how on how to start one and keep it running. Do you think I should get one?

In response to @Katamount,

But what they really hate is that women have any choice in who it is that gets to do the hair pulling (or as Bina pointed out, if they get to do it at all).

@Scanisaurus says –

Yeah, one of the things that frustrates me with the current popular feminist discourse is that while most of us can rightfully acknowledge that trends like many women purchasing pink items or being housewives aren’t necessary the result of a natural preference, but instead strongly influenced by the combination of societal pressures and oftentimes a lack of other options readily available, yet the notion that almost all women want to be submissive in bed goes unquestioned.

??? I’m going to need some like, stats. Because a lot of feminist discourse I’ve seen is that women, like everyone, have varying tastes, and that you can’t say “all women love shoes and pink”, just like you can’t say “all women are submissive in bed”.

[…]

And I’m going to go out on a limb here and say, that for all people claiming women being sexually dominated is taboo and risqué, it’s not.

… Um, I think it *is*, because it’s a couple who is communicating their desires, and are doing this because it is good for *both* of them. One hopes. Also, you admitted you were ‘going out on a limb’, which means you know this is a less than fully supported opinion.

Women being dominated by a man (if not sexually explicit) is still the default way our society portrays heterosexual relationships(…)

Truth.

(…) and a woman expressing that she wants to be sexually dominated by a man is no more controversial than a woman saying she wants to focus on her family instead of her career. She’s not challenging or breaking any gender norms and she isn’t doing something traditional society isn’t already implicitly condoning, and on the few occasions women are shamed or ridiculed for doing something kinky, the source of ridicule is always either the accessories (handcuffs, fetish gear, silly outfits etcetera), or the fact that a woman is feeling lust at all, never the submissiveness itself.

(emphasis mine) Women don’t *need* to be ‘challenging or breaking any gender norms’, they just need to be recognised as a group of varying people, with varied interests.

Want to be a stay at home mom? Great. You do that. Want to have a career? Good for you! Want to do both? Wheph, that’s not easy, good luck, I hope you’ve got lots of help at home and partner(s) who pull their weight.

Re – not being shamed for their submissiveness… I dunno, you sure seem to be trying, here.

For contrast, anytime a man in media is shown to be submissive (or even just failing to be dominant enough), he’s treated as the butt of a joke, no matter the manner of his submissiveness or his reasons for it, and sexually dominant women are with very few exceptions treated as either an evil villain or a bad girl who simply needs the right man to make her go back to being a proper good girl dependent on him.

Truth. This is very frustrating, because you say things that I think are true, but you’ve just got so much more going on here… Anyway.

Similarly, how much of the popularity of stuff like 50 Shades of Grey and bodice-rippers are due to a majority of women actually liking that stuff and how much is due to it being the only sexually explicit media actively marketed towards women in the mainstream?

Again, I agree with this. I think women are a woefully underserved market. Though fanfic certainly has a lot of this available!

Similarly, I remember seeing a study showing that BDSM was the most popular porn genre watched by women, but the study failed to mention that a lot of women don’t look at filmed porn exactly because the treatment of women in much of it, and thus the women who aren’t into it are sifted out at many porn sites, all the while stuff like fanfiction forums and communities that aren’t as focused on domination are ignored.

This is something I’m finding confusing. What exactly are you saying here? Are you saying that a study about which film genre women watch found that this one was it? But you wish they had included the fact that women don’t all consume this in the same way?

Now, this is all just my personal guesses and opinions, but I believe that if we lived in a more equal society where women could be more open in expressing their desires and people weren’t bombarded with stereotypical images of women being subordinate to the men in their relationships since early childhood, the amount of women stating that they want to be sexually dominated would be drastically lower.

And here’s where we really get to it. *This* is where you are saying ‘if only women knew their own minds, they wouldn’t be like they are being now.’

Now, I’m not denying that there are women who would be into that completely of their own accord, but similar to women saying that they want kids instead of a career, it’s fine when some do it and everyone acknowledges it’s their personal choice, but when so many do it just because, and people start speculating that it’s just some innate natural female behavior and anyone not into it is an odd exception, it seriously needs to be questioned and examined.

This entire paragraph depends on the premise that most women are into being submissive, which even you have said is coming from a flawed survey. I can’t get from A>B, here, and this is undermining the points that I think you want to talk about.

I thiiink you want to talk about how femininity is so often associated with submissiveness, and how that frustrates you.

However, claiming that people aren’t talking about that is just wrong, so… I don’t know how to approach what I *think* you are wanting to talk about, without allowing all of these things that I disagree with to stand, so all I can do is point out where I think you’ve gone wrong.

You’re going to get pushback, when you issue blanket statments like this. You can either engage with it, or we can go on another journey, like we already have.

/Shrug

*offers a prayer to the blockquote mammoth*

@Lainy

there is no way for you to know that I am southern. That’s fine. I now know you don’t like me calling you Honey so I will make sure not to do that again. Just wanted you to know I call everyone honey or sugar and it isn’t meant to be an attack or anything.

No problem! Being a European myself, my main exposure to the word has been movie characters trying to sass somebody.

That does sound like you just compared adult women to little girls by the way.

Yes, I can see how that analogy came off badly and I’ll avoid it in the future. Perhaps an more apt comparison would be grown women choosing to be housewives. They may not be forced into it, but it is idealized in a lot of media and many societies treat it as the path of least resistance whilst throwing subtle hurdles at women being to “masculine” or wanting to focus on their career, and many women thus decide being a housewife would be the option more comfortable to them.
@Rhuu – apparently an illiterati
You do make some good counterpoints, however;

(emphasis mine) Women don’t *need* to be ‘challenging or breaking any gender norms’, they just need to be recognised as a group of varying people, with varied interests.

The reason women first got full human rights to begin with was exactly because they challenged the gender norms. Not everyone needs to challenge them, but there needs to be many who do if society is to progress.

Want to be a stay at home mom? Great. You do that. Want to have a career? Good for you! Want to do both? Wheph, that’s not easy, good luck, I hope you’ve got lots of help at home and partner(s) who pull their weight.

As for having both kids and a career, I’m coming from a Swedish perspective, and in Sweden, women working and having kids is the norm, and it is in large parts thanks to feminists in the 60’s and 70’s working under the slogan The personal is political that they argued that a large number of housewives weren’t out of personal choice but funneled into it by lack of better options, and successfully negotiated for better maternity and paternity leave as well as the right to easily available daycare and preschools, and following those reforms the changes were huge.

I thiiink you want to talk about how femininity is so often associated with submissiveness, and how that frustrates you.

You’ve summed it up well. I realize I’ve put my foot in my mouth a whole bunch of times trying to express this, but a huge part of why it’s so hard for me to explain it is because I haven’t seen anyone else tackle this subject beyond saying that “everyone should be allowed to like what they like” and any attempts to discuss how treating sexual submissiveness as simultaneously some kind of common and primal instinct nearly all women have but also as a personal choice could be problematic is brushed off as either shaming or thinking too deeply about it. I don’t want to shame anyone, I just want to question why what’s often presented as the most common sexual fantasy for women also happens to line up with the patriarchal ideas of women being naturally subordinate to men and how much of it is due to individual choice and how much is due to centuries of culture and society shaping the people living in it.

You’re going to get pushback, when you issue blanket statments like this. You can either engage with it, or we can go on another journey, like we already have.

I don’t have a problem with people countering my arguments, and spending time here have helped me see other viewpoints better, the only thing I have a problem with is when I see someone accuse me of being disingenuous or willfully bigoted in what I write. I will try and word myself better in the future, but I’m not trying to insult anyone and I can appreciate a good counter argument to any point I raise.

The reason women first got full human rights to begin with was exactly because they challenged the gender norms. Not everyone needs to challenge them, but there needs to be many who do if society is to progress.

Fuck this victim-blamey nonsense.

Gender studies exists and you can read into it and how they explore socialization and the three bodies and all that (you know, all the things you claim feminism doesn’t explore). It’s not our job to show you the multitudes if resources and studies out there on this.

Passing judgment on people for not being a woman in the ways you deem acceptable is anti-feminist af, so you need to just stop.

Scanisaurus, I do think if you had a blog people would read it (I would), and here’s why I think this:

You seem to like writing long, detailed posts, where you muse over ideas and try things on for size… you use different metaphors and similes to explore your point. Sometimes you get pushback, and from what I’ve seen you try to take that into account and re-think or re-phrase.

Of course, since you’re replying on someone else’s site, you’re always offering your ideas on something someone else has written. You’re never starting from scratch, from something you yourself have come across, and sharing your reactions to it. Does that make sense? I mean, my writing and my conversations offline are 99% about feminist stuff, but not necessarily about the articles I post in response to on here. If I had a blog I’m sure it would give a different sense of my thoughts — recognizable, but different (you’d see a lot more fangirling about Amina Wadud, for example…? I don’t think I’ve ever done that on here!)

I would like to get your unfiltered views on a subject you yourself came across and decided to write about. I think it would be a good way to really get to know your thoughts and opinions. From what I’ve seen, you have a good heart and good intentions (we know those aren’t magic, but they’re better than the alternative!) I just feel that none of us really get the full picture of each other, when we’re reading relatively short replies posted in response to someone else’s original post; does that make sense?

Mainly, I find your writing clear and straightforward, and even when I disagree with you I think your comments are well-written.

Tbh I think a lot of the folks on here should have blogs. Anyone who does, wanna post links? I’d love to read them!

Is megaluigi is a time-traveling ancient Athenian?

Huh. I used to talk to ASS_F occasionally on reddit via DM. He’s like 19 years old and the incel community has been terrible for his self-esteem and mental health.* There are moments when he seems to be trying to turn things around, and then something happens in his personal life – or maybe he just goes back to reading incel forums – and he slides back down the rabbit hole.

*Just to clarify, these are both things that ASS_F has said publicly; I’m not revealing private information.

Yes, women can enjoy sex and other things. The horror.

@ David,

but manosphere types and incels expecially are obsessed with the idea that not long ago there was a golden utopia in which every man was virtually guaranteed a girlfriend/wife exactly as attractive as they were

In all seriousness, have you ever seen then attempt to cite any sources for this idea? I mean, I know they literally make shit up our of thin air all the time, but do they ever…I don’t know….make reference to 17th century family portraits? 1950s sitcoms? Descriptions of characters in Shakespeare? Some other random source?

This is such a weird idea, so why do they think it has any historical accuracy?

Ugh, that “looking back to a golden age” think that all right-wingers do; the idealizing of an imaginary past. Why do these types never actually research or read anything outside their teeny tiny ludicrous areas of interest?!

Forgot to add! Re: Golden Age – i firmly believe that it was their childhoods. You’ve got all these boomers going on about the fifties, and how idyllic they were.

That’s because, as white middle class people, their parents had jobs, houses, vacations, savings. All of these thorny problems (of racism, homophobia, transphobia, ablism, etc) didn’t exist, because they as children were shielded from them.

Note: all of those problems did, in fact, exist, and have always existed.

Only have a moment but wanted to agree here. That’s exactly what the golden age thinking is about – it’s nothing about the actual time they want to go back to. It’s about a return to childhood, to innocence. They think that time was better and easier and brighter because they were just unaware of the realities.

(Though, let’s all go back to that tax rate maybe!)

Sorry about the shouty episode on the discord also, my ducks. I never wanted to be a mod on it, and it boxes me into the corner far too often.

anyways, time to go wage-slave for the corporate overlords!

Hey bookworm in hijab

I’ve been thinking about it last night and I feel the need to explain my accent a bit. I’m from Kansas which is iiterally the middle of the state’s so not deep South but not the north eather. Like its not Ohio which is “oh don’t you know” kind of thing. And its not Texan. Like half Texan. We have lot of the same ways of speaking lie y’all and y’aldve. But it’s not like deep South in Georgia where I’d be a southern bell or anything. Arkansas ironcly is closer to the southern bell type accent I think your thinking of. So think of like half Texan with a neutral American accident I suppose if that makes since.