By David Futrelle
So, you ask, or maybe you don’t, what are the incels on Reddit getting mad about today? Well, at least seventy of them — to judge by their upvotes — are getting pig-biting mad at a cartoon by a woman who enjoys having her hair pulled during sex.
Specifically, this cartoon:
Posting the cartoon in the Braincels subreddit under the thoughtful title “All girls grow up into degenerate whores who crave to be dominated by Chad,” the incel Redditor who calls himself ASS_F declared:
All this because of … hair pulling? Hair pulling.
Jesus, dude, hair pulling is one of the most garden-variety fetishes out there, so common it barely even rates as a fetish. In terms of “degeneracy” it’s probably up there with “earlobe nibbling” or “nipple pinching.”
But, apparently trying to prove to the world that they can get mad about literally anything, some of the commenters in the thread were less angry about a cartoon character who enjoys getting her hair pulled than they were about the hypothetical cartoon character they imagined was doing the pulling — assuming that the (possibly) Asian woman in the cartoon was dating a Chadly white dude rather than an Asian guy of similar attractiveness.
![ldar_ricecel 16 points 6 hours ago
Girl in the pic looks like a typical noodlewhore too, being fucked by Chad instead of her looksmatch Asian.
permalinksavereportreply
[–]UggoBoss 14 points 6 hours ago
her looksmatch is probably hanging on a tree.](https://i2.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/xdtycfugtviyhk.png?fit=600%2C381)
Yes, this self-described “Ricecel” is an Asian guy calling Asian women “noodlewhores.”
AMAF, by the way, means “Asian Male/Asian Female.”
As fucked as all that is, it’s not quite as fucked at the comment by this guy, who decided to use this thread as an opportunity to expound upon his vision of the ideal heterosexual relationship.
Huh. I thought the Reddit admins had banned all the hate subreddits. I guess none of this counts as hate?
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In addition to the many, many reasons incel garbage is hard to read I can never see that one word and not parse it in my head as “look smatched”.
“Looksmatch”, as if there’s some scientific pairing principle that’s being subverted here.
We all know these guys wouldn’t be caught dead dating women who they rated as numerical equals. So where do they get off dinging women for failing to follow a precept they don’t even practice themselves?
Not manhood. MANLY HOOD.
Manly hoodie:
They’d react the same way to any sexual situation.
@lindsayirene
Not true they probably be right at home if the woman was crying or past out or like a corpse or something. Anything they can pretend it’s a doll
@OP
It’s about consent, weirdo.
Little kids don’t consent to having a bully pull their hair. It’s something done *to* them against their will.
If an adult agrees to or requests hair pulling as part of a sexual exchange, they are *consenting*. If a rando stranger on the bus pulled the same person’s hair, it would be unacceptable, unwelcome, and not at all sexy. It would be a problem because he or she didn’t consent to any sort of exchange, sexual or otherwise, with that stranger.
Granted, the concept of consent seems to be unfathomable to these guys. The concept of women as human people also seems unimaginable. So, dudes don’t have good looks or a pleasant personality. They’ve got nothing to offer. They deserve to be rejected.
“Waaaah, I want women to be dependent livestock. Waaaah, women who are dependent want men’s stuff. Waaaaaah, women just want men for their stuff.”
When I read the first post, I was confused at first as I figured that hateful assholes would be in to dominance/submission kinks if it meant they were the dominant ones,
Damn you block quote
@Bina
Second that, I couldn’t agree more.
@Katamount
Yeah, one of the things that frustrates me with the current popular feminist discourse is that while most of us can rightfully acknowledge that trends like many women purchasing pink items or being housewives aren’t necessary the result of a natural preference, but instead strongly influenced by the combination of societal pressures and oftentimes a lack of other options readily available, yet the notion that almost all women want to be submissive in bed goes unquestioned.
Just looking at the study David linked, the statistics were based on a poll on OK Cupid, and not only is that a rather limited pool of demographics, but polls on sexual subjects are by their nature unreliable since it’s next to impossible to verify the truth in the answers, and could be easily skewed by which persons feel comfortable sharing their preferences, and which ones don’t.
And I’m going to go out on a limb here and say, that for all people claiming women being sexually dominated is taboo and risqué, it’s not. Women being dominated by a man (if not sexually explicit) is still the default way our society portrays heterosexual relationships and a woman expressing that she wants to be sexually dominated by a man is no more controversial than a woman saying she wants to focus on her family instead of her career. She’s not challenging or breaking any gender norms and she isn’t doing something traditional society isn’t already implicitly condoning, and on the few occasions women are shamed or ridiculed for doing something kinky, the source of ridicule is always either the accessories (handcuffs, fetish gear, silly outfits etcetera), or the fact that a woman is feeling lust at all, never the submissiveness itself.
For contrast, anytime a man in media is shown to be submissive (or even just failing to be dominant enough), he’s treated as the butt of a joke, no matter the manner of his submissiveness or his reasons for it, and sexually dominant women are with very few exceptions treated as either an evil villain or a bad girl who simply needs the right man to make her go back to being a proper good girl dependent on him.
Similarly, how much of the popularity of stuff like 50 Shades of Grey and bodice-rippers are due to a majority of women actually liking that stuff and how much is due to it being the only sexually explicit media actively marketed towards women in the mainstream? Similarly, I remember seeing a study showing that BDSM was the most popular porn genre watched by women, but the study failed to mention that a lot of women don’t look at filmed porn exactly because the treatment of women in much of it, and thus the women who aren’t into it are sifted out at many porn sites, all the while stuff like fanfiction forums and communities that aren’t as focused on domination are ignored.
Now, this is all just my personal guesses and opinions, but I believe that if we lived in a more equal society where women could be more open in expressing their desires and people weren’t bombarded with stereotypical images of women being subordinate to the men in their relationships since early childhood, the amount of women stating that they want to be sexually dominated would be drastically lower.
Now, I’m not denying that there are women who would be into that completely of their own accord, but similar to women saying that they want kids instead of a career, it’s fine when some do it and everyone acknowledges it’s their personal choice, but when so many do it just because, and people start speculating that it’s just some innate natural female behavior and anyone not into it is an odd exception, it seriously needs to be questioned and examined.
I don’t have enough hair to pull….
I… ummm… you, uhh, wanna go for coffee sometime?
I was cogitating about the upcoming “Angry White Male Studies” course to be offered at Kansas University (if the trumplings don’t close the University first )… there was an article in the local paper, and one comment, from a man (melanin condition and temperament unknown)…
Men just don’t get it… everyone whose NOT a white man feels we should talk about angry white men and the problems caused by their* attitudes and actions, but the reaction of men, particularly white men, is always “Why do we talk about this? Why don’t we talk about THAT, instead???”
I’m really reminded of the interaction between an addict and their loved ones during an “intervention”, when the addict insists that their behavior is not a problem, but [fill in the blank] IS….
* “our” really… I’m white, and yeah, I’m mad as hell…. 🙁
@Bina
You were just asked to stop with the genital mutilation crap. Please stop. It’s not okay to suggest this at all.
@Scanisaurus
I’m sorry, what? That’s not true of any feminist circle I’ve been part of.
I mean, no decision or preference like this is made in a vacuum, but it sounds like you’re saying it’s bad if a majority of women actually do want to raise kids instead of have a career (which are not mutually exclusive, but let’s just say). People of any gender should be free to choose what they want to do with their lives, and if the majority of people of a given gender prefer something, it should neither be assumed to be innate nor looked down upon.
Depends. How flexible are you?
@ Lainy:
lol, thanx, but I hurt myself putting on my socks…. I crunched a motorcycle last May and, since then, “flexibility” has referred much more to my schedule than to my physical dexterity….
@weird eddy
That’s rough man. I hope you start to feel better. Hanging from a water pipe then certainly wouldn’t be good for you lol.
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
http://static.dudeiwantthat.com/img/style/clothing/hippoticorn-moon-tshirt-4785.jpg
@Scanisaurus
Oh honey. No no your so wrong. Please stop. As a kinky bdsm woman I’m asking you to stop. This will turn into another thing like your views on sex workers and I really don’t want to have to drag you when I’m sleep deprived.
@kupo
Maybe I’ve just had bad luck then, but too often I’ve seen attempts to earnestly discuss this dismissed as kink-shaming or both sides devolving into just railing against whatever they deem immoral.
I’m not saying that kids and a career are mutually exclusive, the problem is that if stay-at-home-moms are treated as the norm in a society they often end up harder to combine for women who want both, and a big reason women still have less good career options than their male peers are exactly because employers expect that most women will quit their job or work less once they have kids, and it leads to a loop where many women whom might have wanted to make a career give up and end up focusing more on their kids since they don’t feel they can progress in their career anyway, and it’s a contributing factor to the gender wage gap.
Also, families with only one income are more economically vulnerable, and too many women and children end up in poverty because their husband died or divorced them and they have no education or work experience themselves.
@Buttercup: I think that’s more a wolfly hoodie. Three MGTOWs howling at a glowing monitor in the sky, maybe?
@Scanisaurus
I’m going to have to second Lainy. That your bigotries which are thinly veiled behind feminist talking points get rightfully called out doesn’t mean feminists are actually disagreeing with the feminist talking points.
@Kupo
There basically about to open a hells gate. Especially if scanisaurus thinks for one moment that kinky bdsm women aren’t open about their desires. It’s not like my fiance does what ever he wants to me and I go along with it. Every thing is set with my rules and boundaries and very well planned out map of what we are going to do. Same exact thing when he’s the one in the vunerable situation. Arguments like the one they just made are normally a thin sheet that when lifted what is under it is women have been so brain washed by society that they don’t actually know what they want. It’s incredibly demeaning to clam that a full grown woman can’t decided for herself what she likes or what she wants to get involved in or explore. Yet so many people make this argument because we live in a sexist society.
Some of us know or remember Cliff Pervocracy, a longtime kink blogger and former WHTM commenter. I recall he sometimes noted on his blog that mainstream porn does indeed widely normalize women’s heterosexual submission, humiliation and roughandling.
Now, porn isn’t most of our culture – but for most incels it’s probably most of what they know about sex. And they seem rather eager to find something they can (perhaps willfully) misunderstand, to jump to some unsavory conclusion that supports their desire to hate women.
Porn generally tends to obfuscate consent and omit good consent practices, not unlike most pop culture relating to sex. This is quite understandable as such, seeing that porn is not education, but it probably does have some miseducating effect, and more so when things that should be clearly negotiated as kinks are shown as “business as usual”.
Lumipuna summed it up perfectly there. Even I’ve seen a lot of the aforementioned roughhandling encroaching on mainstream porn. It wasn’t uncommon to see some modest spanking, but I’m actually having difficulty finding mainstream clips that don’t include some kind of completely out of place roughness, like choking or the aforementioned hair pulling… even slapping on occasion. I’m like… “come on guys, can’t we just get some straight-ahead sexual pleasure going on here…?”
It makes the interviews they have with adult actresses all the more surreal where they relate how much they just loooove getting things shoved down their throat. Maybe some do, but I can’t imagine that many are actually aroused by that sensation. They can’t break kayfabe, I suppose….
@Kupo
@Lainy
I’m sorry, I don’t want to start an argument, but can you please not use condescending language or call me a bigot every time I say something someone disagrees with? I just want to be able to explain myself without escalating this further.
At no point did I say that there doesn’t exist women who enjoy kinky stuff of their own free will, nor that they shouldn’t be allowed to do it.
I do think the onus on consent and using safewords as well as negotiating what will be done beforehand in dedicated BDSM communities is good, however, this is usually the first part to get cut out in mainstream representations of it, and that’s what I take issue with when it comes to BDSM. Most of the stuff I was complaining about isn’t what I’d call BDSM but random acts of pain and humiliation directed towards women (without prior establishing of consent or acknowledging that the humiliation is roleplay) being treated as normal and female submissiveness being treated as a natural default. I’m sorry for failing to make this distinction in my first comment and my only excuse is that I was pressed for time when making it.
I suppose Katamount and Lumipuna described it better than I did.
I think you’ve got this part backwards. The point I was trying to make is that female submissiveness is overrepresented because the women into it are the women who feel most comfortable sharing their sexual preferences and fantasies in our society.
If I’m to use an analogy, white men are vastly overrepresented in Hollywood movies, but saying that they shouldn’t be treated as the default or be overrepresented doesn’t mean that white men don’t exist in reality or that I hate white men and want them gone from movies entirely. I just want more diverse representation and for them to stop treating white men as the only heroes everybody who matters want to see in the lead roles.
@ Scanisaurus,
I think you’re spot on here. I’m in a profession that gives really good maternity leave — which is great — but truly bad paternity/other-parent leave, which is NOT great. While I loved getting to stay home with my kids when they were young, it definitely did reinforce the Man At Job, Woman At Home binary.
I’m not sure, given the social pressures and career structures we are dealing with, that I could really say I or my husband had a truly free choice in all this, though I did “choose” to stay home and he did “choose” to stay at work. A lack of options doesn’t equal freedom to choose.
Btw, do you have a blog?