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The Tindercaust? Incel claims dating apps and social media “have killed more men than both world wars”

Hitler: Not as bad as Facebook or Tinder?

By David Futrelle

If you’re wondering whether Godwin’s Law still has a role to play in a world that’s once again filled with actual Nazis, the answer is yes, because how else are we going to deal with the so-called involuntary celibates on the Incels.is forums who are currently comparing their lack of a sex life to the literal Holocaust, and concluding that what they’re dealing with is somehow worse.

A week ago, one regular Incels.is commenter called lifeisbullshit95 dropped this alleged truth bomb on his incel colleagues:

[It's Over] Social media and dating apps have killed more men than both world war combined

His message was somehow even more inflammatory than his headline, an all-caps wall-of-text rant, sans line breaks and even punctuation, declaring that all but the handsomest of men are suffering a “NEW HOLOCAUST” because of Facebook and Tinder.

“THIS IS THE NEW HOLOCAUST,” he began.

HITLER TARGETED THE JEWS TINDER AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAVE TARGETED SUB8 MEN WE’RE DYING A PAINFUL SEXLESS LIFE FULL OF SUFFERING AND DEPRESSION

Huh. Quick survey: Raise your hand if you’re a SUB8 MAN and you’ve had sex. Hell, raise your hand if you’re SUB8 and still alive, despite all the Holocausting from Tinder and Facebook.

Oh, but apparently you don’t have to be physically dead to count as a dude killed by social media.

HOW MANY LIFE TINDER,INSTAGRAM,FACEBOOK ECC HAVE CLAIMED YET? LIVING A SEXLESS LIFE ISN’T LIVING

Raise your hand if you’re not having sex at the moment but are somehow still living a life worth living.

ESPECIALLY AS MAN THEY DEFINITELY CLAIM MY LIFE AND THE SADDEST THING IS THAT NOBODY IS DOING ANYTHING WE’RE LEFT GETTING MURDERED

I can’t help but think of poor, rollerskating Terry on Reno 911.

Of course, Reno 911 was a comedy, and lifeisbullshit95, who has posted more than 700 decidedly non-humorous comments to Incels.is forums, isn’t kidding.

Like many incels lifeisbullshit95 is convinced that social media makes women too stuck up to even consider having sex with any but the most Chadly of men. This, as it turns out, is a widespread belief in the Manosphere, promoted by everyone from MRA douchebag Paul Elam to PUA douchebags like Roosh V to the denizens of MGTOWforums,,com. As these misogynistic men see it, women on dating sites and social media get so much flattery from thirsty men that they come to see themselves as better than the “looksmatched” men they should be dating. (Incels don’t really seem to understand how many of the “flattering” messages that women get online are literal dick pics or otherwise creepy as fuck.)

NOBODY FIGHT SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE DATING APPS THAT HAS GIVEN SO MUCH POWER TO WOMEN EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS TOPIC IS TABOO

And so somehow we’re back in 1930s Germany, but this time women are Hitler.

HITLER CAME TO POWER BECAUSE THE GERMANS WERE AN- GRY AND WANTED A REVOLUTION WOMEN CAME TO POWER BECAUSE THEY FELT ANGRY ABOUT NOT HAVING EQUAL RIGHTS AND WANTED A REVOLUTION IT’S ALL SO SIMILAR

And now these Hitler-women are using dating apps to sex genocide all but the top 20% of men.

BOTH HITLER AND THE DATING APPS HAD AS A GOAL TO WEED OUT FROM EXISTANCE THE INFERIOR MEN

You may wonder how exactly not getting matches on Tinder is similar to being murdered in a death camp. Lifeisbullshit95 has this, er, answer:

WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE? DYING IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER IS STILL DYING WE’RE THE VICTIMS OF THE NEW HOLOCAUST MY FRIENDS.

Okey dokey then.

You may wonder if any of the other incels stopped for a moment and told lifeisbullshit95 that he was completely full of shit. The answer, of course, is no.

“my face is rotting each day and female hypergamy is only getting potentialized with dating apps,” wrote someone calling himself JeffGoldblumInTheFly, and perhaps taking his handle a little too seriously, “its fucking over.”

“Dating apps and social media not only killed men but it make us suffer,” declared someone called Cuyen.

JeffGoldblum and Cuyen have, together, posted more than 20,000 messages on Incels.is, so I’m pretty sure they’re not drive-by trolls.

And even if JeffGoldblumInTheFly is joking about his face rotting away like, well, Jeff Goldblum’s face in “The Fly,” incels do believe that as each day passes they become ever less likely to ever validate their lives by having sex with a woman. More importantly, his comment here serves to offer its own sort of validation — of lifeisbullshit95’s hyperbolic, hateful rhetoric blaming women for essentially every problem in men’s lives.

Social media and dating apps don’t kill, but depression does, and sites like Incels.is add to the problem by steering young, desperate men away from real help and into a hateful, self-destructive fantasy world. That’s the real danger here.

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Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Voxpoptart: “SOL” has definitely moved a lot of people. The person who recommended it to me made it his album of the year. And there is a lot on it that resonates personally; “Wildwood” is basically me as a young teenager reading books about “the supernatural” and wishing I could move matchsticks with my brain…

By bizarre coincidence, someone else mentioned Elizabeth Sandifer in a reply to me in another thread, this time about her comics criticism. I’m sure the synchronicity would appeal to her.

PS I’m actually a guy, though I chose this ‘nym to be gender-neutral so I’ve only myself to blame for the confusion 😉

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

NowherePants,

No one accused you of advocating violence, but by trying to convince us that incels are not such bad guys, you sure are engaging in apologetics for it.

What exactly is your approved correct response to men who celebrate mass murders and want me to die just because I’m a “roastie?” Am I supposed to be just okay with it? Even knowing that the rhetoric in this subculture has actually spawned mass murderers?

I’m also curious if you think other targets of hate groups aren’t allowed to dislike the hate groups who target them? Or is it just women who are supposed to submit to hatred against them?

I’m also curious about what sexual revolution is supposed to have caused syphilis? Also curious about whether you think violence against women is a new thing caused by the recent one? Also wondering why you imagine anyone here expects men to have a partner? Several regulars here are single. I said myself on this very thread that I’m aromantic. Yeah, there’s pressure in our culture to be partnered. There’s always been pressure on women to be. You ever heard the word ‘spinster?’ It’s been around awhile, it’s always used in a derogatory way and yet, somehow, women haven’t gone on killing sprees over it. Incel isn’t even an equivalent term because that’s a subculture men choose to participate in. Pressure to be partnered is not an excuse for hate. If it was, the larger culture would be have to be more sympathetic to the strawfeminist who hates men because she’s too ugly to find one.

Makroth
Makroth
2 years ago

@Nowherepants

Maybe, just MAYBE (just hear me out on this) you need to learn how to better handle criticism. This applies to KiwiWriter as well.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Isn’t it funny how women are supposed to handle outright hate speech calmly and nicely, but it’s cool if men throw a fit about being criticized?

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

Tldr nowhere pants

#notallincels

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

@NowherePants

Okay, I fully recognize that this is a petty and irrelevant observation, but the idiom you were going for was “toe the line,” as in: stay within acceptable boundaries.

The idiom “tow the line” means to work in concert with a group towards a common goal.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 years ago

Saying the sexual revolution caused the AIDS epidemic is, in my opinion, grossly irresponsible. Stigmatizing and moralizing about sex has only ever stood in the way of AIDS research and treatment.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

@Viscaria:

Saying the sexual revolution caused the AIDS epidemic is, in my opinion, grossly irresponsible. Stigmatizing and moralizing about sex has only ever stood in the way of AIDS research and treatment.

Not to mention it centres the story on the affluent west, and erases the African experience of HIV/AIDS. I believe a majority of cases have occurred in countries which are relatively conservative, sexually speaking. When you hear the words “sexual revolution”, do you think of, say, Botswana?

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

@Nowherepants

@kiwiwriter: If you don’t use appropriate language around here(not just correct words but phrasing and style), you will face a barrage of righteous indignation. Call-out culture runs deep in places like this.

You’re saying this as if people don’t try to avoid dog piles here. You’re also characterising the responses as ‘righteous indignation’, which implies that people are safe in ignoring them, because the responses are out of proportion or wrong.

Also, many women really have a great deal of contempt for men who are socially inept and/or have experienced difficulty getting along with women. They rationalize this contempt by wrapping it up in moralistic language by ranting about how “entitled” and “misogynistic” they are.

No. As has been said upthread, women can usually tell the difference between ‘socially awkward’ and ‘entitled’ or ‘misogynistic’.

I’m going to relate a slogan that I’ve found myself returning to. It’s from the true crime podcast “My Favorite Murder”, and it goes like this:

“Fuck politeness.”

Do you know why this is such a powerful thing for people, mainly in historically disadvantaged groups? Because you need to be polite to the dominant group. (all following examples are about men and women’s relationships, but I believe this could go with any majority/minority group.)

That boy pulled on your hair? He just likes you. Don’t make a big deal about it, don’t cause a scene. Be polite.

That man is standing too close to you? He just doesn’t understand how his comparitively larger body makes you feel scared and trapped. Be nice to him. Be polite.

That man who asked you out? You’d better reject him softly, so that he doesn’t do something terrible. Be polite.

In all of these situations, there is that feeling in your gut when you are interacting with someone? LISTEN TO IT. FUCK POLITENESS. That is your instincts saying “something is wrong here”, and you should get out of that situation.

Quite frankly, I am already growing tired of this place and the conspiratorial worldviews of certain posters(I won’t name names). Righteousness makes me sick.

I’m going to put a [citation needed] here. What ‘conspiratorial worldview’? You are going to need to explain this.

Going off on a tangent here: I’ve always believed strongly in fairness so I tended to lean left. But the modern left, especially the hard left, almost views itself as an aristocracy with a holier than thou mentality. They have a creed. If you question anything in their creed you can expect to be shouted down(proverbially and even literally). It is as if political ideology has replaced religion. Not unlike what happened in the 1960s(and spilling over into the early 70s). One thing that people like this hate more than anything is those who ask questions and those who don’t *tow the line*. Enough znough.

This right here is basically “If only you weren’t so mean to me, and called me out when I was saying problematic things, I would be on your side! You are forcing me right!”

I mean, if you were hypothetically a Bernie or buster and then voted for Trump because people just weren’t nice enough to you…. Like…. my dude.

We will all make mistakes, we will all fuck up. We will all be told that when we said X, it was not the best thing to say. Or that the implication of our Z action is something not good.

We need to keep examining ourselves, and doing the work, so that we can hopefully be good allies when needed, and advocate for ourselves when needed.

I heard something the other day, about being kind to yourself when you make mistakes. I think that’s important, because we’re always going to make mistakes. We live in a sexist, racists, transphobic, homophobic, mysogonistic, abled, neurotypical, (etc) world. Those values are in us, and will pop up in unexpected places.

Accept that they are there. Know that, unless someone has gone out to find and shape yourself to these world views, it’s okay. We can change them. We can be better people today than yesterday.

If you don’t want to do the work, there isn’t anything keeping you here. *shrug*

Lainy
Lainy
2 years ago

What social awkward boys and men have done to me.

1. sat there in a room and awkwardly stared at me and I awkwardly stared back nodding as we tried to come up with something to say

2. while I was crying ask “I’m sorry…would you like a kit kat or mabe a tea, I have kit kats and tea. Sorry I don’t really know how to deal with a girl crying”

3.smile shyly and not able to meet my eyes when I told him I liked his glasses. then getting all mixed up in wards as he tried to hand me my change.

4. shyly and nervously complement my dress and when I cut all my hair off

Things entitled and misogynic men and boys have done to me while pretending to be social awkward.

1. follow me around a dance I went to by myself and wait outside the bathroom I was in for 15 minutes to ask me for the 5 time if I wanted to dance.

2. pressured me into said dance then held me uncomfortably close and putting his hands way to close to my ass and not letting me pull away.

3. get really offended when I explained ” yes I’m bisexual but I don’t date men right now”

4. hug me from behind and press his crotch against my ass.

5. follow me really close while I was walking down stares then reaching under my dress and grabbing all of my pussy. then doing like a credit card swipe across my crack of my ass.

6. walk in on me while I was getting out of the shower and stare at me.

7. say things to me like “I know you were rape but wanting to have an abortion after that rape is wrong”

8. hug me from behind while taking a group photo and grab both of my boobs and show his crotch against my ass.

9. tell me I shouldn’t wear dresses if I didn’t want all of that to happen to me.

Please get out of here with the bullshit of women hating social awkward men.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 years ago

@ Lainy,

Things entitled and misogynic men and boys have done to me while pretending to be social awkward.

Holy shit, I’m so sorry to hear what you’ve been through. That fucking sucks; it’s also too damn common. I know it doesn’t really do any good, but hugs if you want them!

@ weirwoodtreehugger,

Isn’t it funny how women are supposed to handle outright hate speech calmly and nicely, but it’s cool if men throw a fit about being criticized?

I think ^^this^^ is such a huge part of what Lainy was talking about with misogynists. We’re socialized to explain away all their awful behaviour as “awkwardness” (or, throwing ableism into the mix, as “autism”, wtf), and to stay polite at all times, even when all of our instincts are screaming. We know that we’re in a catch-22; if we criticize a man’s awful behaviour we’re told “he doesn’t understand social cues, he’s just awkward!” or we’re scolded, harassed, doxxed. But, if we don’t speak out, we’re blamed for whatever they do to us.

Nowherepants
Nowherepants
2 years ago

Saying the sexual revolution caused the AIDS epidemic is, in my opinion, grossly irresponsible. Stigmatizing and moralizing about sex has only ever stood in the way of AIDS research and treatment.

Fortunately, considerable progress has been made in treating AIDS and while there isn’t a cure for AIDS just yet, an HIV infection is no longer a death sentence the way it was 30 years ago. I would say that the explosion of awareness of the disease in the 1990s(around 30 years ago the death rates for AIDS began to soar and many famous people succumbed to it)really did help funding for AIDS R&D. As well as people realizing that it wasn’t just a disease among promiscuous people and sexual minorities. Now the “free love” movement occurred in the mid to late 60s, but a lot of the rapid spread of AIDS took place in the 70s and 80s. In the west it wasn’t just careless sex, but also heroin usage. So in the developed “1st world”, it was not just sex but drugs(heroin) that spread AIDS. In Africa? That’s another story so I won’t comment since I don’t know about what lead to the spread of AIDS there.

As for syphilis, well, this article suggests that the introduction of penicillin(which stopped the syphilis epidemic that began in the 1920s)may have contributed to the sexual revolution even moreso than contraceptives did.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

Interesting that you didn’t clarify my [citation needed] request, Nowherepants. *shrug*

Also, while this is a video essay and I haven’t done a lot of research into the AIDS epidemic (this is a north american view, I very much don’t know anything outside of that and should really remedy that)

Even just watching the news pieces in this is powerful.

Pretending that the States didn’t put their hands over their ears and pretend this wasn’t ripping through a community because those who were sick were filthy homos is just wrong.

While AIDS was spread by other means than just in the LGBTQ+ community… To my knowlege, it was ignored PRECISELY because it had such a high incidence in that community.

Here’s another film, this one made for children around the world, about AIDS prevention. This is heavy stuff, CW for child sexual abuse.

https://www.nfb.ca/film/karate_kids/

There are also some f-bombs in there, FYI!

ETA: omg what

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I think ^^this^^ is such a huge part of what Lainy was talking about with misogynists. We’re socialized to explain away all their awful behaviour as “awkwardness” (or, throwing ableism into the mix, as “autism”, wtf), and to stay polite at all times, even when all of our instincts are screaming.

And another thing those who want to explain bad male behavior away as social awkwardness or autism never consider is the fact that some of the women being subjected to unwanted comments or touching are socially awkward or autism.

It’s always, always assumed that women all must be socially adept enough to let a man gently but firmly in the exact right way that will keep him from becoming abusive but won’t lead him on. A huge male privilege is that men are allowed to be socially awkward, to say the wrong thing, to be sympathized with when they come off badly. Women never have that luxury.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ nowhere pants

Sexual revolutions historically have had some very dire, unintended consequences. Like syphilis…

So, you’re suggesting that syphillis was a consequence of a ‘sexual revolution’

As for syphilis, well, this article suggests that the introduction of penicillin(which stopped the syphilis epidemic that began in the 1920s)may have contributed to the sexual revolution even moreso than contraceptives did.

But if anything, that article suggests the sexual revolution was a consequence of syphillis (or rather the availability of reliable syphillis treatment).

If you’ve found a way of reversing casualty then would you mind helping me with my time machine?

C4t
C4t
2 years ago

You’re saying this as if people don’t try to avoid dog piles here.

For the record, this has not always been the case. A couple of years ago David had to clarify the commenting rules because it got so bad.

But the damage was done. I hang at Wonkette now, though a fellow Wonker has communicated things have calmed down a lot. This appears to be the case from my intermittent lurking. But I still don’t see me regularly commenting here as being productive.

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 years ago

@ weirwoodtreehugger,

And another thing those who want to explain bad male behavior away as social awkwardness or autism never consider is the fact that some of the women being subjected to unwanted comments or touching are socially awkward or autism.

It’s always, always assumed that women all must be socially adept enough to let a man gently but firmly in the exact right way that will keep him from becoming abusive but won’t lead him on. A huge male privilege is that men are allowed to be socially awkward, to say the wrong thing, to be sympathized with when they come off badly. Women never have that luxury.

Mic. Drop. And applause.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

The comments policy says ‘no dogpiling’ now, and i wasn’t talking about years ago, but rather the present. *shrug*

I’m glad you found a space to comment at.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

For the record, this has not always been the case. A couple of years ago David had to clarify the commenting rules because it got so bad.

Define “got so bad.” A lot of people got one or two requests to cut the abelist language that were free of name calling and weren’t nasty in tone, would double down, get a few more comments that were less polite, then have a meltdown and flounce.

The comment policy is there to keep people from doubling down on the issue. That’s why there’s fewer fights.

Every time someone comes in here with a complaint about how mean we are, no receipts are brought. But feel free to bring them if you’ve got them.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 years ago

@nowherepants

Fortunately, considerable progress has been made in treating AIDS and while there isn’t a cure for AIDS just yet, an HIV infection is no longer a death sentence the way it was 30 years ago. I would say that the explosion of awareness of the disease in the 1990s(around 30 years ago the death rates for AIDS began to soar and many famous people succumbed to it)really did help funding for AIDS R&D.

Unless I’m missing something, none of this appears to be relevant to your claim that the AIDS epidemic resulted from the sexual revolution, nor my position that making that claim is irresponsible.

As well as people realizing that it wasn’t just a disease among promiscuous people and sexual minorities. Now the “free love” movement occurred in the mid to late 60s, but a lot of the rapid spread of AIDS took place in the 70s and 80s. In the west it wasn’t just careless sex, but also heroin usage. So in the developed “1st world”, it was not just sex but drugs(heroin) that spread AIDS.

This all just seems to support my point?

In Africa? That’s another story so I won’t comment since I don’t know about what lead to the spread of AIDS there.

Fair enough. I hope you read and understood Moggie’s comment about centering an affluent western AIDS narrative.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Rhuu – apparently an illiterati wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 12:21 pm:

I’m going to relate a slogan that I’ve found myself returning to. It’s from the true crime podcast “My Favorite Murder”, and it goes like this:

“Fuck politeness.”

Do you know why this is such a powerful thing for people, mainly in historically disadvantaged groups? Because you need to be polite to the dominant group. (all following examples are about men and women’s relationships, but I believe this could go with any majority/minority group.)

That boy pulled on your hair? He just likes you. Don’t make a big deal about it, don’t cause a scene. Be polite.

That man is standing too close to you? He just doesn’t understand how his comparitively larger body makes you feel scared and trapped. Be nice to him. Be polite.

That man who asked you out? You’d better reject him softly, so that he doesn’t do something terrible. Be polite.

In all of these situations, there is that feeling in your gut when you are interacting with someone? LISTEN TO IT. FUCK POLITENESS. That is your instincts saying “something is wrong here”, and you should get out of that situation.

Honest question:

Does “fuck politeness” also apply in notionally ‘safe’ spaces, like this blog?

Related question:

Is the consensus position of the commenters, with respect to a person saying something problematic, to immediately put them down as if they were trolling?

As an example:

IgnoreSandra wrote on
February 26, 2019 at 4:25 pm:

@Kiwiwriter

[…]

Also, stop being garbage. As you are in this:

I suffer from Asperger’s, so I am absolutely unable to deal with people of any type.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Is the consensus position of the commenters, with respect to a person saying something problematic, to immediately put them down as if they were trolling?

If they’re being toxic, does it matter if they’re a troll or not?

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Also, the edit window closed before my comment showed up, but I should add that this blog is not a safe space.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

@Ariblester:

This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter — misogyny and hate — there’s really no way it could be.

You’ll find that at the top right of the page, under the mammoth, as the conclusion of the brief description of what this blog is.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

kupo wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 7:20 pm:

Is the consensus position of the commenters, with respect to a person saying something problematic, to immediately put them down as if they were trolling?

If they’re being toxic, does it matter if they’re a troll or not?

You’d have to define “toxic” before I can answer that question. When does “problematic” cross over into “toxic”?

kupo wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 7:24 pm:

Also, the edit window closed before my comment showed up, but I should add that this blog is not a safe space.

Rabid Rabbit wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 8:10 pm:

@Ariblester:

This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter — misogyny and hate — there’s really no way it could be.

You’ll find that at the top right of the page, under the mammoth, as the conclusion of the brief description of what this blog is.

Fair points. My apologies.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

You’d have to define “toxic” before I can answer that question. When does “problematic” cross over into “toxic”?

When there’s harm. Here’s a more thorough definition, if you like:
https://www.sociology.org/toxic-socialization/

But even ignoring the term toxic, as that wasn’t really the point of my question, if the poster is displaying poor behavior, does it matter whether they are a troll or not in how we should respond to them? This is a sincere question; I’m curious what your thoughts are.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

kupo wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 10:11 pm:

You’d have to define “toxic” before I can answer that question. When does “problematic” cross over into “toxic”?

When there’s harm. Here’s a more thorough definition, if you like:
https://www.sociology.org/toxic-socialization/

But even ignoring the term toxic, as that wasn’t really the point of my question, if the poster is displaying poor behavior, does it matter whether they are a troll or not in how we should respond to them? This is a sincere question; I’m curious what your thoughts are.

Thanks for the link, I’ll look over it.

Well, speaking for myself, if they were a semi-regular commenter who has a history of commenting productively and in good faith, I’d personally give them a little more leeway before (say) calling them “garbage” when they say something problematic.

You can see this in my responses to Chris Oakley, who has a tendency to use ableist language in his comments. My call-outs went from “Not cool” to “No.” to “No, and fuck you”* only after I saw that he was unwilling to change his language even after having this repeatedly pointed out to him.

*I guess I unconsciously give regular commenters three strikes?

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

If yo think the situations i have described are equivalent to safe spaces, i’m not sure how to explain it to you. (But i will try, i guess.)

The politeness i am talking about is the social standard that says someone needs to stay in a situation that something is making them feel is dangerous, because if they leavee there will be social consequences.

A safe space shouldn’t be making someone feel afraid.

Two cis women saying FUCK THAT SHIT, PROTECT YOURSELF AND FUCK THE SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES AND FUCK POLITENESS is something powerful.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Rhuu – apparently an illiterati wrote on
February 28, 2019 at 10:35 pm:

If yo think the situations i have described are equivalent to safe spaces, i’m not sure how to explain it to you. (But i will try, i guess.)

Those situations are definitely unsafe, and I apologize if I gave the impression that I believed that they were not.

The politeness i am talking about is the social standard that says someone needs to stay in a situation that something is making them feel is dangerous, because if they leavee there will be social consequences.

A safe space shouldn’t be making someone feel afraid.

Absolutely.

Two cis women saying FUCK THAT SHIT, PROTECT YOURSELF AND FUCK THE SOCIAL CONSEQUENCES AND FUCK POLITENESS is something powerful.

I totally agree.

But are we talking about Kiwiwriter’s behavior towards the women in his anecdotes (and how he seems to be unaware that he was causing them to feel unsafe), or are we discussing the way in which he described it in the comments section?

I was under the impression that @nowherepants was discussing the latter, and my comments are made with that in mind, but I see that you’re discussing the former (where Kiwiwriter made women feel unsafe by his behavior).

In any case, my original point was wrong in the first place, because WHTM is emphatically not meant to be a safe space, and that therefore “politeness” is not expected.

Again, sorry for the confusion.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

(“politeness” is in quotes to indicate that it is being used in the sense you described of “putting yourself in unsafe situations due to societal pressures to be deferential”, and is not an attempt to minimize it in any way. I should probably stop digging now. Thank you for your time, have a good one.)

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

I think that there generally tends to be a distinction between a regular being called out and a troll being called out. See: the difference in the way that kiwiwriter was addressed versus the way that nowherepants is being addressed.

From where I’m standing, it generally seems like call-outs for regulars are more serious and less playful, because regulars are expected to behave better, whereas trolls are expected to continue being awful and responding to them is more of a sport/performance for the sake of the audience.

Anonymous
Anonymous
2 years ago

@Lainy –

Exactly. Socially awkard =\= being an a-hole. *Offering* biscuits and tea when you don’t want biscuits and tea =\= trying to *force* you to have sex with you when don’t want sex.

As for #5 on your second list – I didn’t know you’ve met the president!

Anonymous
Anonymous
2 years ago

Technically, I think discussing the comments policy itself is forbidden here, but as I see many others doing it I will say (only) one thing about it.

I think the comments policy is this blog has certain problems, in particular it is rather vague at places. But it is a private blog by someone else, so while I can *offer* changes, I can hardly violate the comment policy and say I am just “correcting” it.

Some people come to post here and think that if they *disagree* with a certain comments policy section, they have a right to *violate* it. This is a far bigger problem than anything in the comments policy, and I agree they should be banned (of course, again, this being a private blog, the owner can ban anyone he wants).

Anonymous
Anonymous
2 years ago

One thing about abortion. The problem with many who oppose abortion is that only nominally do they do it b/c they care for the baby. They really do it b/c they want to make sure a woman who has sex w/o their permission will be punished with an unwanted child. This is why so many of them are also against sex education, for abstinence-only policies, and lenient toward rapits. That hardly fits with any true comcern to minimize the number of abortions!

I am all in favor of sex education, availability of contraceptives, and severly punishing rapists. I think, in other words, that as much as possible should be done to minimize the number of women that have unwanted pregnancies. Someone who does not accept this simply does not have the moral standing to debate what should happen if a woman has such a pregnancy nevertheless.

It is exactly analogous to many other situations, such as – off the top of my head – wars of self-defense, or what to do with the homeless. Are some wars necessary? Are some homeless responsible for their own plight? Perhaps so, but one has no right to speak about these issues at all unless one first supports doing anything reasonable to minimize both.

Megpie71
2 years ago

I know quite a few autistic young men (comes from being in a support group for autistic people in a university environment, go figure). I’ve never seen them or heard them be anything other than polite and respectful to any of the women in the group, or indeed to anyone female at all. Okay, they don’t make eye contact when you look at them – but hells, nine times out of ten, neither do I, because I’m on the autism spectrum myself (and I’m female).

I’m fully aware there are rude and badly behaved autistic men out there. But given there are rude and badly behaved allistic[1] men as well, I doubt that rudeness and poor behaviour toward women are necessarily closely correlated with autism per se.

[1] non-autistic

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

@arbilester – just for the record, this is what i was responding to. It had no relation to kiwiwriter at all, since it was nowherepants describing the “women” on this site/in feminist places/in general.

Also, many women really have a great deal of contempt for men who are socially inept and/or have experienced difficulty getting along with women. They rationalize this contempt by wrapping it up in moralistic language by ranting about how “entitled” and “misogynistic” they are.

I hope you are having a good day!

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Rhuu – apparently an illiterati wrote on
March 1, 2019 at 7:11 am:

@arbilester – just for the record, this is what i was responding to. It had no relation to kiwiwriter at all, since it was nowherepants describing the “women” on this site/in feminist places/in general.

Also, many women really have a great deal of contempt for men who are socially inept and/or have experienced difficulty getting along with women. They rationalize this contempt by wrapping it up in moralistic language by ranting about how “entitled” and “misogynistic” they are.

I hope you are having a good day!

Ah, I see now. Yes, @nowherepants is way off the mark with that comment. Sorry again.

I’m fine, thanks, and I hope you are too 🙂

Contract JACK
Contract JACK
2 years ago

With the prevalence of “social media” dating apps placing emphasis on a man’s looks (and nothing else), how are men with a sub-8.5 appearance men to find sexual partners?

Do ugly men deserve to get sex and love? If not, do ugly men deserve to LIVE?

Would you consider it equally fair if women were evaluated solely on appearance?

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

@Contract JACK

Would you consider it equally fair if women were evaluated solely on appearance?

Oh God, this is the greatest troll we’ve have in ages. I’m actually giddy.

Do you think he’s real, or is it one of our favorite socks come back to haunt us?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ rabid rabbit

is it one of our favorite socks come back to haunt us?

Well, the deliberate refusal to blockquote just to be annoying is a familiar hallmark.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

I’d vote to keep him, if it wasn’t for his racist shit over in the yoga pants thread. But I’m holding off on wanting him gone for the sake of the forthcoming erudite troll smackdowns, which I don’t want to miss.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Oh dear, it’s gotten worse for the incel. It used to be that it was only sub-8 men that were oppressed by the hot-police. Now it’s sub-8.5!

Suggestion: Try avoiding dating apps and using, you know, social skills.

And if you don’t have those – (it’s okay, lots of people don’t!) – practice and learn them! They’re skills like any other.

Would you consider it equally fair if women were evaluated solely on appearance?

comment image

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes

You’re so kind to the poor troll’s sensibilities, making sure the ponies you present are decently attired. Though I suppose the one on the left is shamelessly hatless.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

so uncouth!

Crip Dyke
Crip Dyke
2 years ago

Do ugly men deserve to get sex and love? If not, do ugly men deserve to LIVE?

Do you mean ugly in personality?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I don’t think someone who’s upset by yoga pants has any right to wank about men being judged based on appearances.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
2 years ago

Do ugly men deserve to get sex and love?

Nobody deserves sex and love. Unless you mean “love” in the broader sense of basic consideration and respect, in which case everybody deserves it.

If not, do ugly men deserve to LIVE?

As much as anyone. Why do you think these points are related? Why would you think physical attraction is related to basic human rights?

Bookworm in hijab
Bookworm in hijab
2 years ago

I’m enjoying watching Contract Jack get batted about like a cat-toy by the folks here. Popcorn, anyone?

IgnoreSandra
IgnoreSandra
2 years ago

@Ariblester

I don’t know who you are at all, but I’m gonna assume that for you talking around someone you have an issue with is about you and not a statement on the individual.

So I’m gonna ask myself a question I wish you’d asked me. I’m not being a bitch. I really, truly wish you’d brought your problem with me to me instead of talking to the side of me.

Sandra, don’t you think you should have been more polite to kiwiwriter? That you have a responsibility to be kind and sunshiney in all circumstances?

Well aspect-of-Sandra-pretending-to-be-Ariblester, I could have toned my language down. I could have been dandelion rainbows with someone who’d just insulted me and every other autistic on earth. But I absolutely should not have done that. Turnabout is fair play, and I am not required to follow codified rules of politeness as a response to being insulted.

I was angry. I admitted that, and despite that anger I was very clear on the issue I had, how it needed to be addressed, that I would not tolerate that behavior and could never be brought to tolerate the behavior, and that the source of my anger was being thrown under the bus to excuse someone else’s poor behavior. Which, frankly, is the kind of move a person who is garbage in that moment performs.

Now, I asked myself a question, so I’d like you to ask yourself one. If I had a masculine ‘nym, would you still want to police my tone?

Lainy
Lainy
2 years ago

No one deserve love and sex. Well a child deserve love but that’s a about it. These are things that happen by chance and if they don’t happen it’s not the end of the world.