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Let’s use eugenics to create a utopian world without women, creepy incel Redditor proposes

JB didn’t mean it literally, though

By David Futrelle

It’s getting outright genocidal over there in the Braincels subreddit.

Yesterday, one incel Redditor by the name of numbnow suggested, without a trace of irony, that the world would be a much better place if women were to be literally eliminated.

“Can You Imagine A World of Men Working Together With Eugenics?” he asked in a creepily cheerful post on the subject.

Imagine if the human species became a race of men; divorced of the female gender.

The world as one giant incel circlejerk. What an utter joy to contemplate.

I think that the blackpill will be looked on as equivalent to the enlightenment era in later centuries tbh. One day we will have a civilization that fully acknowledges and accounts for this knowledge, women won’t vote, they might not even exist anymore aside from AI.

This guy takes the “sexbots will replace women” line literally.

Just imagine the accomplishments which we could attain without the female. We could be exploring other worlds already; seeding our species throughout the cosmos. No drama, no bullshit.

Dude, I don’t know if you’ve heard of a thing called “history,” but men have basically been in charge of human civilization for several thousand years, and, uh, there has been rather a lot of drama and bullshit.

Just imagine a race of genetically specialized Ubermensch completing the dreams of man.

The only “dream” the typical incel has is to complain about women rejecting them 24 hours a day. After getting rid of sleep, these “genetically specialized Ubermenschen” of Incel Planet would probably have to genetically recreate women so that that they’ll have someone to complain about.

No inequality, just a civilization of brotherhood and betterment throughout the universe. What a beautiful cope..

Numbnow’s grand plan got a mixed reaction from his fellow incel Redditors. But most seemed to like the idea of using eugenics to defeat the evil “foids” — aka “femoids,” aka “women.”

One suggested that the aspiring Ubermenschen could achieve many of the same results by simply engineering women to have lower standards when it comes to men.

“I would support using eugenics to eradicate hypergamy in foids,” proposed JucheforWhitePeople.

We could create a breed of loyal, compassionate foids. After foids have dictated sexual selection for aeons and caused countless men to suffer, I think such actions are more than justified.

After stopping foids from breeding with dark triad sociopaths, we could also solve so many problems, such as all the war and crime in the world. They only exist because foids like these thugmaxed men.

Yes, the guys proposing to either eliminate women or to somehow reprogram them to put up with any amount of bullshit from their male partners still somehow think of themselves as the good guys. Because that’s the incel way.

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TheKND
TheKND
2 years ago

Sure, why not… LONG LIVE THE HORATIO!

Gijoel
Gijoel
2 years ago

Just imagine the accomplishments which we could attain without the female

Only for about six or seven decades.

Also this reminds me of Kronar son of man.

Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 years ago

I propose we fund a virtual reality system that will allow these guys to plug into the world they want. The only catch is that they can’t leave.

Susan
Susan
2 years ago

What is thugmaxed?

Moon Custafer
Moon Custafer
2 years ago

@ Victorious Parasol:

For the Man Who Wantsto Be the Man Who Has Everything?

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

You wanna bet this guy has a copy of Norman Spinrad’s The Iron Dream and not only never got the joke but now the pages of the volume are worryingly stuck to each other?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

We could be exploring other worlds already; seeding our species throughout the cosmos.

I know I don’t have to tell anyone here that it was Margaret Hamilton and a group of black ladies that rescued the Apollo programme after the techbros at MIT fucked up.

They literally “had one job to do”!

“And where’s the program for actually landing on the Moon?”

“Oh yeah, that…”

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

If anyone is unfamiliar with the clusterfuck that was MIT and the Apollo guidance computer, then I recommend this…

Women who work in STEM probably won’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Mexican Hot Chocolate
Mexican Hot Chocolate
2 years ago

I can’t even imagine the shear amount of willful ignorance about literally every subject required to think like one of these creeps.

Phaos
Phaos
2 years ago

I mean programming back then was ‘women’s work’. It’s not just because it was low-paid scut work either, at the end of the day programming is at least as much writing as anything. Elegant and bug-free programs require you to logic through the flow of what you’re doing and then translate that into language. And as someone with a couple of degrees in STEM, I know full well how goddamn bad at those tasks (and programming in a competent fashion in general) people who consider themselves ‘technical’ can be.

Personal anecdote but I taught the lab sections for a course in MATLAB for engineering students in grad school, and trust me the guys were no better on average than the ladies.

Lumipuna (formerly Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (formerly Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

a race of genetically specialized Ubermensch

Specialized in what, driving a taxi service?

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@Lumipuna (formerly Arctic Ape)
A race of the Ultimate Taxi Driver.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
2 years ago

JucheForWhitePeople. Okaaaaaay, dude. That sounds not at all creepy or fascist or both.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Off-topic, but related to eugenics: on Twitter, Roaming Millennial has been sharing her thoughts on IQ and genetics lately, but today she reached a new height of rage-inducing not-very-thinly-veiled-at-all eugenicism.
Someone asked her what could be done about the lower tier of society, those people who are genetically inferior and contribute little or nothing (I’m barely even paraphrasing). She skipped around the subject a bit, praising Jordan Peterson for bringing it to public attention, and then said a major problem was that wealthy, high IQ people are not having babies, whereas those other people are having too many.
She then said there were no easy answers, but it would help if people were allowed to talk about it.
There really aren’t that many dots to fill in here, are there? I’m thinking only 14 or so?

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Susan
February 1, 2019 at 8:07 pm

What is thugmaxed?

An adjective used to describe ethnic or Black incels who attempt to present as “thuggish” an image as possible. Cf. “looksmaxed”, where an incel attempts to maximize physical attractiveness.

Snowberry
Snowberry
2 years ago

You know, maybe we should really, really encourage planetary colonization.

This could potentially drain off most of the wealth of people with too much money and too little sense, stripping them of a lot of the power that comes with wealth. And if they succeed, then their dreams of running their own little kingdom will run into the metaphorical situation of landing on Plymouth Rock, except with no friendly natives to bail them out of their slow death sentence. But at least we get to learn something from it, maybe? …The smart ones at least know that they probably won’t survive, but might want to try anyway.

Of course, not all of them will leave or lose out, but maybe if enough wealthy people with overly grandiose ambitions screw themselves over during relatively short period (like say, a decade or two) faster than they can get replaced, it might fray the power structure enough that we could make some permanent changes here on Earth.

…Unrealistic fantasy, I know, but compared to incel space utopia? To that I say, “Where are you getting the money? How are you going to convince people to work with you to make it happen? Are you even going to get off your ass and work for it, given a chance? You’re an incel!” That’s the saddest thing about their fantasies in general – even if there was any chance in hell of them happening, their biggest stumbling block would be themselves.

Brassica
Brassica
2 years ago

Also, incels seem to be nearly as horrified by male homosexuality as they are angry at women. What precisely do they think a world genetically engineered to be without women would look like??
Sadly, they are unlikely to have read _Ethan of Athos_, because Lois McMaster Bujold is a woman, and not even a young hot Stacy…

Wu Wei
Wu Wei
2 years ago

I know this has probably been said a million times before, but… have these guys met women? Not only is it a problem that incels are convinced they can’t sleep with women, but also the fact that they can’t even be friends with them has apparently left them oblivious to the fact that women can also operate technology. I continue to be unpleasantly surprised that these guys don’t realize that women are an integral part of the scientific community nowadays. (And a majority, or about to be, in many fields!)

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

So, some incel sez:

Stop women from breeding with dark triad sociopaths.

Also:

Let’s exterminate half the population, conquer the known universe, and engineer a slave race for our entertainment.

Hmm. Something’s not quite right here …

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

After stopping foids from breeding with dark triad sociopaths, we could also solve so many problems, such as all the war and crime in the world. They only exist because foids like these thugmaxed men.

I note they’re happy to keep “dark triad sociopaths” and “thugmaxed men” around, despite having fantasised the technology to “solve” them, because clearly it is the fault of feeeeeeeemales for enabling them.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

O/T, but for the legal geeks.

We finally got that ‘upskirting’ law passed here; and the CPS and British Transport Police are having a bit of a purge to make sure people get the message.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/01/man-who-upskirted-woman-at-tube-station-fined

Citerior Motive
Citerior Motive
2 years ago

What a beautiful cope.

Like this one?

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw:

If anyone is unfamiliar with the clusterfuck that was MIT and the Apollo guidance computer, then I recommend this…

Very interesting. Thanks for the link.

There is techbro hubris and I don’t doubt that MIT was the hub for techbro hubris, especially back then, but I can’t help but feel a bit sorry for some of the guys in that documentary whose careers and marriages ended up on the rocks as a result of that project. Maybe it’s because I’m an IT guy too.

There is a famous IT book that happened to be written around the same time as the Apollo project called The Mythical Man Month by a guy who worked at IBM called Fred Brooks. Brooks was a manager on IBM’s System/360 project, an effort to design a new mainframe. In retrospect, System/360 was a success for IBM– it formed the backbone of their product line for a long time and its “DNA” is still found in IBM products today– but at the time, it was considered a disaster, finishing late and horribly over budget. The Mythical Man Month was Brooks’s attempt at a post-mortem. Early on in the book, in trying to get a handle on the difficulty of estimating software, Brooks writes:

Optimism
All programmers are optimists. Perhaps this modern sorcery especially attracts those who believe in happy endings and fairy godmothers. Perhaps the hundreds of nitty frustrations drive away all but those who habitually focus on the end goal. Perhaps it is merely that computers are young, programmers are younger, and the young are always optimists. But however the selection process works, the result is indisputable: “This time it will surely run,” or “I just found the last bug.”

So the first false assumption that underlies the scheduling of all system programming is that all will go well, i.e., that each task will take only as long it “ought” to take.

In many creative activities the medium of execution is intractable. Lumber splits; paints smear; electrical circuits ring. These physical limitations of the medium constrain the ideas that may be expressed, and they also create unexpected difficulties in the implementation.

Implementation, then, takes time and sweat because both of the physical media and because of the inadequacies of the underlying ideas. We tend to blame the physical media for most of our implementation difficulties; for the media are not “ours” in the way the ideas are, and our pride colours our judgement.

Computer programming, however, creates with an extremely tractable medium. The programmer builds from pure thought-stuff: concepts and very flexible representations thereof. Because the medium is tractable, we expect few difficulties in implementation; hence our pervasive optimism. Because our ideas are faulty, we have bugs; hence our optimism is unjustified.

In other words, everyone thinks the software is the easiest part because it’s the easiest to change but that, paradoxically makes it harder. Physical components are constrained by the laws of physics but software components operate under no such constraints.

IMO, The Mythical Man Month is probably one of the most read and least acted-on works in the IT body of knowledge: everyone agrees that a lot of what Brooks says is right on the money and is as true today as it was when he wrote it nearly 50 (!) years ago. But when you ask why people still develop software in the same pathological ways that led the System/360 project or the Apollo Guidance Computer project into the weeds, they’re all like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BTW, there’s a guy called Ken Shirriff whose blog I read and who recently also posted on the Apollo Guidance Computer. His article focuses more on the physical construction of the computer, the idiosyncrasies (at least to the eyes of someone used to the way modern solid-state memory works) of magnetic core memory and the physical considerations the engineers had to deal with, “how do we build this thing without the vibrations at launch shaking it to bits?” Shirriff has some interesting stuff on his blog, such as the reconstruction he participated in of a Xerox Alto, the first commercial computer with the mouse/ graphic user interface combo we all use today.

Kereea
Kereea
2 years ago

This is all sounding very Warhammer 40k to me. Like, VERY. You have a super-race of only male humans doing all the “important” stuff while the “normies” pretty much exist to get slaughtered or be canon fodder. Allegedly the super-humans do what they do for all humanity, but thinking on that too hard ruins the power fantasy of “I’m special and do what I want”
Oh, and every other race out there is worse than anything humanity does ever (except the Tau, which people have been bitching about because how dare there be a potentially morally superior faction to the super-humans?) thus justifying using any means necessary against them.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

@Surplus to Requirements – That contradiction struck me as well. “In order to permanently eliminate remorseless antisocial criminals, we must act like remorseless antisocial criminals.” Apparently, they only want to wipe out the wrong sort of remorseless antisocial criminal. The kind who gets laid.

Meanwhile, in other Darwinian news…

I would support using eugenics to eradicate hypergamy in foids…We could create a breed of loyal, compassionate foids.

Hasn’t the human race already been doing this for millennia? Historically, troublesome and non-compliant women were deemed unmarriageable and packed off into convents or asylums. Under Mosaic law, women could be divorced and expelled from the home under the flimsiest of pretexts, such as burning dinner or wearing their hair too loose. Countless others were captured or sold into slavery, where disobedience was an automatic death sentence.

And yet here we are in 2019, and feistiness still hasn’t been bred out of women. Thankfully.

Daddy longarms
Daddy longarms
2 years ago

I know this will drown in the sea of reason that’s s already been poured out regarding incels, but: female humans are not a separate species from male humans. Not a separate breed. If you somehow breed women to be docile slaves, then you’re doing the same to men. It just, it just doesn’t work like that!!

Phaos
Phaos
2 years ago

@Kereea

Back when I played 40k I always thought the Spess Marines were pretentious and poorly balanced and took great pleasure in reclaiming their biomass to feed the Great Devourer.

Bonelady
Bonelady
2 years ago

How are these guys planning to spread their seed across the universe without women? Do they think a fledgling space colony could produce artificial wombs, let alone sexbots of the caliber that they probably want? And where are they planning on getting female DNA? That was a problem in Ethan of Athos, btw – the men there had a limited amount of female DNA, & were getting inbred as a result. (Its been a while since I’ve read the book, so please correct me if I’m wrong.)
I’m assuming that once they kill us all off, they will continue killing baby girls as they are conceived (however that happens). What will that do to the “pro-life” people, who are mostly male? Who will care for babies? The sexbots? Or will they make nannybots? Yet another drain on colonial economies. This will not work – something I hope they realize before they commence with the genocide. It occurs to me that if men kill off women, that they will have to take on our traditional roles, thus becoming women…

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

(I posted a comment on this earlier but it seems to have been eaten– or in moderation?) Has anyone read The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad? This incel bullshit could’ve come straight out of it.

(Spoilers follow)

Spinrad wrote The Iron Dream back in 1972 because of his concern at what he saw was an acceptance of right-wing tropes in SF and fantasy. The conceit of the novel-within-a-novel is that it is a work of fantasy by Adolf Hitler (!) who in a parallel universe emigrated to America after the Munich Beer Hall Putsch and became first an SF illustrator and then a pulp writer. It is deliberately lurid, badly-written, has a Mary Sue protagonist, and is terrible in every way Spinrad can make it. Then, to turn the troll-level up to 11, he closes it with a fake essay from a psychologist in the parallel universe who mentions the inexplicable popularity of Hitler’s work among SF fans, how they cosplay his characters at conventions (!), and how deeply psychologically disturbed it all is. In an early example of how some things never change, Spinrad had complaints from fashy-leaning SF readers about spoiling a good yarn with “politics” 🙄, while the American Nazi Party apparently had it on their reading list for years, not realising it was satire!

The novel takes place on a far-future, post-apocalyptic Earth populated by mutant abominations where in only the nation of Heldon (the German word for “hero”) is the “true human genotype” to be found. But after a genocidal war with the Dominators, the novel’s stand-in for (((you know who))), the Dominators succeed in finding and detonating an ancient nuclear device, blanketing the world in fallout and ensuring that the human race will never breed true again. But all is not lost! The scientists of Heldon perfect human cloning, ensuring the human race will continue in the form of blond Aryan supermen (and it is only men; there are literally no women characters in the novel), forever! The novel finishes with the Earth conquered by Heldon and them planning to, er, “fecundate the stars” in a scene of hilariously grotesque imagery:

This time the demonstration of fanatic ecstasy surpassed even what had gone before, and it took Feric [Jaggar, Hitler’s Mary Sue author-insert] a full five minutes to still the massive chanting of “Hail Jaggar!” that all but threatened to topple the great rocket from its launching pad with its incredible force.

“But my fellow Helder, there is one final glory that I have withheld until now,” he finally continued, unable to keep from breaking into a broad grin. “I myself have contributed cells to the cloning vats. This rocket and every one that follows it out into the trackless reaches of interstellar space for the next ten million years will be commanded by a clone grown from my own flesh and therefore my genetic equivalent, suited by destiny and pedigree to be a leader of men. Thus our colonies shall not fail no matter what manner of hostile aliens they may face under foreign suns, for the troops that will exterminate these subhuman horrors shall be none but the finest SS purebreds, and the leaders shall be created in my own genetic image! Hail Heldon! Hail the Swastika! Hail the Master Race! Hail the conquest of the universe!”

As the answering earthquake chanting of “Hail Jaggar!” reverberated every molecule in the air, the huge ring of SS troops began to march round the rocket and Feric’s platform, kicking the heels of their steel-soled boots high in the air with every step and then bringing them down with a force that was quite literally earth-shaking. Faster and faster these magnificent specimens in snug black leather marched, kicking their heels ever higher, until the platform and the rocket were surrounded by a whirling circle of slick black leather, and the universe shook with the thunder of Helder boots.

Then, as a single man, these two hundred thousand tall blond SS clones snapped their arms out in the greatest massed Party salute in history and held them in this outstretched position as the chant of “Hail Jaggar!” continued to rise toward the heavens from millions of fervent throats.

Faster and faster the marching troops whirled around Feric, kicking their heels skyward with ever increasing vigor and force, as if attempting to smash through the vault in the sky with the steel soles of their boots while the massed chanting merged with the rhythm of the falling boots, a staccato thunder that filled and shook the universe and pounded, with the blood racing in Feric’s skull.

Feric felt the sound and the glory permeate every cell of his body with an incredible joyous fire; his blood pounded like racial thunder through his veins, faster and faster. It seemed finally as if he must fly apart and burst in a million pieces with ecstasy.

At this climactic moment, when he could bear the preternatural joy no longer, he threw a small switch.

With a deafening bellow, a magnificent billow of orange flame spurted out of the rocket. Every throat in Heldon joined with Feric’s in a wordless cry of joyous triumph as the seed of the Swastika rose on a pillar of fire to fecundate the stars.

🍆🍆🍆🍆 😂

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Bonelady

That was a problem in Ethan of Athos, btw – the men there had a limited amount of female DNA, & were getting inbred as a result. (Its been a while since I’ve read the book, so please correct me if I’m wrong.)

Not quite; they had been growing ovae in cultured ovaries, but those only last so long, even in high tech nutrient baths etc. So they need a bunch of fresh ovaries. The failure of this shipment to arrive is what sends poor Ethan out into the hostile universe.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

@Bonelady

Presumably they think the Tleilaxu from Dune are a model worthy of emulation.
(Spoiler alert: All Tleilaxu women are converted into bioreactors.)

Crip Dyke
2 years ago

@Snowberry:

You know, maybe we should really, really encourage planetary colonization.

Yeah, there’s a great old quote from the 1960s:

If they can put one man on the moon, why not all of them?

I don’t think that they’ve ever put an incel on the moon, but, hey, it’s worth a moonshot.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ crip dyke

I don’t think that they’ve ever put an incel on the moon

Well there is that moon of Saturn; the one that looks to have a sub-surface ocean.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Crip Dyke:

I don’t think that they’ve ever put an incel on the moon

Of course not! I believe space agencies are very meticulous and thoroughly disinfect their craft before they fly to ensure there is no risk of microbial contamination of the landing site! 😉

(With apologies to microbes everywhere, of course, for the unwarranted comparison to incels)

Otrame
Otrame
2 years ago

We already have the technology to do without men completely. It could be as simple as collecting semen from each young man before… well, getting rid of them. Maybe send them to Mars to have a nice female-free society.

Or perhaps using stem cells (or manipulating extra ova) to create sperm cells from females, thus eleminating the Y chromosome altogether.

No, I’m not in favor. I rather like most men, faults and all. I admit that finding a solution to the the societal ills that have created the modern incel would be nice. They are the victims of technological change that has been too fast for our culture to keep up with and our culture has changed enormously*. I believe their misery is real, even if it is hard to care because they are so fucking poisonous.

Until we solve that problem, my advice to the miserable incels is “Get off the fucking computer and go for a walk, for fuck’s sake”.

*Just understand, when I was a little girl, I wanted to be a cop. I was patted on my silly little head by everyone but my dad, who pointed out that I was probably going to be too small, but that if that was what I wanted I should go for it. Or to put it another way, I was an adult when the first video game was invented.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

Daddy longarms:

I know this will drown in the sea of reason that’s s already been poured out regarding incels, but: female humans are not a separate species from male humans. Not a separate breed. If you somehow breed women to be docile slaves, then you’re doing the same to men. It just, it just doesn’t work like that!!

Good point. I just was thinking of a more imminent issue, namely that in order to breed future generations of cooperative women, you’d need the cooperation of the current generation of women. It’s kind of a chick and egg problem…

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
2 years ago

Ugh. Exterminationist MRAs legit terrify me, and I consider ideologies like theirs a very real and present threat. A world without women really is one of my fears for where our future is headed. (Along with many, many other forms of eugenics and slow genocide.)

I mean, I’m also quite paranoid about men’s motives. (See: PTSD.) But the distance from objectification to genocide is not as great as most privileged folk like to think, and genetic engineering is a thing now.

@Kereea

Oh gods 40K, I hate that franchise and much of its fan base with a passion. For those who haven’t heard, it’s where “God Emperor Trump” comes from.

Pen
Pen
2 years ago

Well, given that the distinction between the male and female sex generally lies in their sperm, and before that, permeates every cell of their body including the ones used to make sperm, I really don’t know how they’re going to achieve this lofty aim. I can’t imagine how to engineer a man to produce sperm with only Y-chromosomes. And I believe you need X-chromosomes in your other cells to be alive, e.g. there is no YY, although there is XYY (but I could be wrong about that).

And in response to the point above:

If you somehow breed women to be docile slaves, then you’re doing the same to men

Yes, this. It’s possible to imagine breeding men to be more or less docile, or whatever, by messing with the Y-chromosome, but any genetic material that’s in women is potentially also in men.

PS. I realize there are some exceptions to these generalizations, but I’m going to assume our genocidal friends are not factoring them into any plans they might make.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

The Y-chromosome is a crumbling little vestigial architecture, with a higher than normal mutation rate and a host of issues. It’s not some sort of all-powerful information carrier that carries What It Is To Be Man on it. It’s just got some information on it that informs hormone production as far as I’m aware.

All of the heavy lifting is – you guessed it – on the X-chromosome. Because all of the chromosomes are X-chromosomes, because that’s the shape of a chromosome, sex-based or otherwise. “Breeding docility into women” would absolutely breed it into men as well, because we’re the same damn species.

People with Y-chromosomes are more vulnerable to mutations resulting in cancer or disease because they don’t have that second X hanging around to correct for a fault in the first. The Y sucks!

I guess this is good news overall, though. These dickbutts aren’t gonna have much luck at engineering their all-male society with their grade 11 biology.

Allandrel
Allandrel
2 years ago

@Cyborgette

I lovbe 40k, but I recognize that it isn’t for everyone, and I completely understand what you mean about some of its fans.

For those unfamiliar with it, Warhammer 40,000 is a science fiction setting with the tagline “In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.” It is a hellish nightmare where the human Imperium is a theocratic, fascist dystopia and the aliens are even worse.

The appeal comes from the deliberately over-the-top nature of its “grimdark” approach to everything. The guiding design principle is basically “heavy metal album covers on steroids.”

But some people take it at face value and think that the Imperium is the Good Guys, when one of the themes of the setting is that There Are No Good Guys (well, maybe the Salamanders).

The “God-Emperor Trump” thing is a good example of this. The God-Emperor of Mankind is an incredibly powerful psychic who reunited mankind, but whose dreams of a new order failed and who is left as a rotting carcass on life support while his empire slowly dies around him in in a grotesque parody of everything he stood for.

Someone looked at that and went “Yes, that is clearly how I should regard Dear Leader, rather than a warning about putting your faith in demagogues.”

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Pen:

And I believe you need X-chromosomes in your other cells to be alive, e.g. there is no YY, although there is XYY (but I could be wrong about that).

Yeah, the Y chromosome is missing quite a few vital gene sequences (it’s why it’s visibly smaller than the X under a microscope and it’s what gives it its name) so that even if a YY zygote ever were to form, as far as I understand it, it would not be viable after more than a couple of cell divisions.

The way bio-essentialists go on, you’d swear that the Y-chromosome was some kind of essence of masculinity, like if you looked at it under a strong enough microscope, it’d be bright blue, wearing a little sports-team jersey, and holding a brewski in its tiny arm or something 🙄. This is pseudo-vitalist bullshit: in reality, there’s only a handful of genes on it that are actually responsible for producing male sex characteristics. The most important of these is the SRY gene which instructs the proto-gonad tissue in the foetus to start developing into testes and kicks off a developmental cascade that in most cases results in a male human. But it’s possible for someone with an XX karyotype to end up with a copy of the SRY gene. The opposite can also occur; a person can have an XY karyotype but their copy of the SRY gene is deleted or fails to express for some reason. This is in addition to conditions like X0, XXY, XYY, etc.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Scildfreja Unnyðnes:

People with Y-chromosomes are more vulnerable to mutations resulting in cancer or disease because they don’t have that second X hanging around to correct for a fault in the first. The Y sucks!

Don’t forget the colour-blindness either. ☹️ Don’t have it myself but I know a few people who do.

(Aside: one of my first encounters with trans folks online was a long-defunct Web site back in the 90s that checked your own site’s accessibility for people with various forms of colour-blindness. Very useful but my first reaction was, “why is this site run by a woman? Women don’t get colour-blindness!” Bless my twentysomething heart 🙄)

Jane Done
Jane Done
2 years ago

@Cat Mara:

The programmer builds from pure thought-stuff

OT: I have seen this absolutely everywhere, and I just gotta wonder, what IS it with programmers and this incessant god-complex? What makes them think they’re so special?

This whole “we create amazing things from NOTHING!! WE ARE LIKE GODS!!” (literally what some fellow alumni have said) needs to burn in a fire and die. Programmers would be nothing more than nerdy outcasts if it weren’t for the electrical engineers who create the circuit boards that make up a physical computer, and electrical engineers would have nothing to work with were it not for chemists, scientists, etc who advanced work in metallurgy and electricity. Programmers are no better or more amazing than anyone else, and they rely on other people/occupations just like everyone else.

Like seriously, where did this hubris-large-enough-to-cause-gravitational-lensing even come from?

Altos
Altos
2 years ago

‘Come back to the Gay Planet soon, incels!’

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

@Cat: I’ve not only read The Iron Dream, I have a copy, and alluded to same book in an earlier post.

It’s got a misaimed fandom among the American Nazi Party because of course it does…

Have you read any other Spinrad? Bug Jack Barron and Child of Fortune were entertaining.

Robert
Robert
2 years ago

Jane Done – well put. I’ve occasionally wondered what people with the capacity for programming skills did before the Post-industrial Revolution. Nothing particularly earth-shaking, is my guess.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Jane Done:

In fairness to Fred Brooks, when he made that “builds from pure thought-stuff” quote, he was saying, “this is a bug, guys, not a feature!”; sorry if my quoting of him didn’t make that clear. You won’t get any argument about their being a surfeit of tech-bro hubris in this world, from me or from Brooks. In fact, he called them out on in back in the 80s when it wasn’t nearly as bad as it is now in a famous paper called “No Silver Bullet” that he issued as a challenge to the tech-bros. In summary his argument was, “you guys are on crack. You talk about all these new methodologies and new programming languages but I bet you that by the end of the decade, we won’t even see a 10% improvement on the delivery of big software project in terms of them coming in late, over-budget, or not at all. Prove me wrong, arseholes.” Well, he was dragged for this in the computer press. He was called a crank, a relic from the mainframe days, etc. The hotshots of the PC revolution would put this old geezer in his place! Guess what? He was right. He’s still right.

My take-away from Brooks is that when someone who works in another creative discipline has a job to do, there are certain constraints that are dictated by the laws of physics. When an architect, for example, executes a commission to build a house, there are a whole slew of possibilities they can immediately discount because the laws of gravity makes them impossible on the surface on the Earth given the materials we have to hand. This also places an upper limit on how long it will take for the house to be built. Computer programming, in comparison, is much more of a tabula rasa: there are no “laws of physics” as such inside the computer. The tech-bros have elevated this into some sort of proof of their own awesomeness, like they have anything to do with it– Brooks, on the other hand, points out that this lack of constraints, the endless malleability, just makes it harder to figure out how long it’s going to take to do anything. And people underestimate, badly: I’ve seen a quote from Margaret Hamilton which suggests that MIT didn’t even bother to send in an initial estimate to NASA for how long the software was going to take for the Apollo Flight Computer because how long would it take, really? Sure, it’s only software! The hardware is the difficult bit, right?

Like seriously, where did this hubris-large-enough-to-cause-gravitational-lensing even come from?

My opinion? A cheerleading and complicit press who will kiss the arse of anyone with money. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Larry Ellison, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, all tech-bros, all billionaires; therefore, they’re doing something right. Listen to them, for they are wise and good 🙄. Forget that they have done actual crimes, just look at the size of those wallets! Software is eating the world, y’all, and you could be eaten first!

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

I just gotta wonder, what IS it with programmers and this incessant god-complex? What makes them think they’re so special?

This whole “we create amazing things from NOTHING!! WE ARE LIKE GODS!!” (literally what some fellow alumni have said) needs to burn in a fire and die. Programmers would be nothing more than nerdy outcasts if it weren’t for the electrical engineers who create the circuit boards that make up a physical computer, and electrical engineers would have nothing to work with were it not for chemists, scientists, etc who advanced work in metallurgy and electricity. Programmers are no better or more amazing than anyone else, and they rely on other people/occupations just like everyone else.

Like seriously, where did this hubris-large-enough-to-cause-gravitational-lensing even come from?

My perspective on this, as a woman who is a programmer:

Ever since the 80s there have been these messages about elite programmers/hackers in the media. On top of that it’s a profession that was invaded by men and given the title “engineer” despite most programmers not actually doing any engineering (we’re lucky if they spend 5 minutes thinking before they dive in and start tinkering), so they have this illusion of prestige that the work just plain doesn’t fit. Add to that the vast majority of them (IME) are from middle to upper class backgrounds, so they’re used to being treated like some kind of god.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

@Nequam:

Have you read any other Spinrad? Bug Jack Barron and Child of Fortune were entertaining.

I’ve read Bug Jack Barron. It’s fun, though very much of its time (a lot of the racial stuff in it probably wouldn’t pass muster nowadays), but not Child of Fortune. There’s a couple others of his I’ve picked up secondhand over the years: The Void Captain’s Tale, Between Two Worlds (both of which are quite feminist in theme), No Direction Home (a collection of short stories) and Little Heroes (a vaguely cyberpunk-y one). He’s still writing, or was, though I think he self-publishes now.

We’ll have to get an open thread for SF…

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ cat mara

MIT didn’t even bother to send in an initial estimate to NASA for how long the software was going to take for the Apollo Flight Computer because how long would it take, really? Sure, it’s only software! The hardware is the difficult bit, right?

Not that they were any better on the hardware side.

As I’m sure you know, when the team building the command module asked MIT for the physical specs of the computer so they could incorporate it into the design, MIT just plucked a figure from nowhere because they’d never bothered to work it out.

Hence it being “Er, it’s a one foot cube…”

(I like that the command module team had such little confidence in MIT that they decided to incorporate a sextant into the design)