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Incel arrested in Utah for threatening to “kill as many girls as I see” shows why the idea of “enforced monogamy” is so dangerous


Christopher Cleary’s YouTube channel is devoted to fast food and sports

By David Futrelle

No one casually watching Christopher Wayne Cleary’s YouTube channel would suspect that the 27-year-old Denver man has a long history of stalking and threatening women, culminating in his arrest last Saturday in Utah after he posted an angry Facebook screed warning that he would soon take symbolic revenge on “all the girls the turned me down … by killing as many girls as I see.”

Though his words echoed those of the infamous incel killer Elliot Rodger, whose “day of retribution” against women left six dead in Isla Vista, California in 2014, Cleary’s YouTube videos give no hint of the rage festering beneath the surface.

There are no misogynistic rants or grandiose pronouncements. The channel is instead devoted to sports and to “mukbang” videos, in which Cleary chats amiably while eating hamburgers and pizza and other fast food staples. He appears nothing like the stereotype of the angry, socially awkward incel.

It’s quite a contrast to the message Cleary posted on Facebook that led to his arrest:

All I wanted was a girlfriend, not 1000 not a bunch of hoes not money none of that. All I wanted was to be loved, yet no one cares about me I'm 27 years old and I've never had a girlfriend before and I'm still a virgin, this is why I'm planning on shooting up a public place soon and being the next mass shooter cause I'm ready to die and all the girls the turned me down is going to make it right by killing as many girls as I see.

In a followup comment, he declared “[t]heres nothing more dangerous than man ready to die.”

Screenshot of recent videos on Cleary’s YouTube channel

But Cleary’s threatening note was as deceptive as his affable manner on YouTube. Cleary may be “involuntarily” celibate at the moment, but he’s hardly the kissless virgin he claims to be.

We know this because he is currently on probation for stalking and threatening a former girlfriend. As the Denver Post reports, the then-43-year-old woman called police in 2017 after Cleary showed up at her house.

The woman told investigators Cleary previously had been her boyfriend and they had sexual relations, but when she broke off the relationship, he began stalking her, according to court records. Cleary had called her 45 times that day, saying, “I hope you die,” “I am going to kill you,” “I am going to burn your house down,” and “I am going to send people to your house to kill you,” court records show.

The woman said that because of Cleary’s persistent stalking, she lost 20 pounds, had nightmares of him chasing her, awoke to find herself crying and had panic attacks. Cleary posted her phone number and address on Craigslist with fake pictures “soliciting sexual acts and rape,” according to the probable statement. She received many replies from strangers.

Cleary pleaded guilty … to felony stalking and making threats in a plea deal with prosecutors. Jefferson County Judge Dennis Hall sentenced him to three years of probation … .

But she was not Cleary’s first victim. In 2016, he was convicted of stalking and harassing two different 18-uear-old girls in Arvada, Colorado who had turned him down for dates. In a Facebook message, he had warned one of them that “I’ve been watching you. Soon … you’ll be lying in your deathbed.” In 2015, the Denver Post notes, he

was convicted on a misdemeanor telephone harassment charge. In that case, he convinced a woman to pose naked for him and then posted the photo online on a fake Facebook page in her name.

Cleary has also been accused of stalking and worse by other teenage girls, allegedly telling one 17-year-old that “I own multipul guns I can have u dead in a second … One day ima snap and kill everyone.” In another case, the Post reports,

a 19-year-old woman said she lived with Cleary for two weeks in a hotel room and during that time he strangled her and urinated on her, court records show.

Cleary has never gotten more than probation for his crimes against women. Hopefully that will change with this latest arrest.

Cleary’s case makes abundantly clear that the notions of “sexual redistribution” and “enforced monogamy” promoted by reactionary thinkers like Jordan Peterson are not only wrongheaded but profoundly dangerous.

Peterson and others have suggested that the rage of so-called incels like Elliot Rodger and Toronto van killer Alek Minassian suggest that our sexual economy is seriously out of whack, with many men unable to have regular sex because women are allegedly only interested in a relatively small subset of men. In order to prevent further incel violence, Peterson and others argue, we need to restructure society so that women are somehow compelled — by peer pressure if not something more draconian — to date the currently undateable. (Peterson, for his part, denies that “enforced monogamy” would be forced upon anyone, which makes one wonder why he used the word “enforced.”)

In other words, Peterson and others think that we should rearrange all of society to somehow compel women to date men who are so angry they can’t get dates that they regularly threaten or even carry out violence against women. In other words, we should essentially force women to date abusive men like Cleary.

Men who spend much of their time openly fantasizing about doing harm to women who won’t date them aren’t going to suddenly become angels if some woman starts dating them; Cleary obviously didn’t. Violent men don’t stop being violent when they’re in relationships; they just start directing this violence at their partners — and in many cases they ramp up the violence if their partner ever tries to leave them.

These men shouldn’t be appeased or, worse, rewarded for violence and threats of violence; they should be punished. Jordan Peterson and other proponents of “sexual redistribution” may be perfectly decent men in their own private lives, at least as far as we know, but the logic behind their proposals, however vague they may be, is the logic of the abuser.

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Chris Oakley
1 year ago

@Cat Mara: He’s a threat to every living thing within a hundred-mile radius of him. This guy sounds like he’s on a path to becoming Tim McVeigh 2.0.

@Troubelle and Rabid Rabbit: I generally favor “dope slap” myself.

Talonknife
Talonknife
1 year ago

CW: sexual violence, regular violence, description of a serial killer’s crimes.

I had an idea for an experiment and I was curious what the regulars on the board think about.

I’ve been thinking about making a sockpuppet account on whatever the main incel gathering place is now, posting some quotes from Edmund Kemper as if they were “mine,” and seeing how the community there would react to them. For those who don’t know, Edmund Kemper was an infamously misogynistic serial who dismembered his victims and performed sexual acts on their corpses. His victims were believed to be surrogates for his abusive mother, who he later killed and defiled in the same way. As one of the most recent cases at the time when law enforcement began to classify “serial killers,” Kemper was the subject of extensive interviews, so there are a lot of direct quotes from the man himself about his feelings toward women. He was reportedly especially resentful that his mother would not introduce him to any of the female students at the university where she worked.

Would anyone be interested in this little experiment? I have a disturbing feeling that the incel community would accept random Kemper quotes organized into a post as one of theirs immediately.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

Oh, there used to be a great Korean restaurant in my hometown. It looked like a generic lunch counter, the sign said Plaza Cafe, there was a big letterboard menu of hotdogs and grilled cheese at 1970s prices on the wall. The real menu was laminated printouts taped to the wall by the kitchen, containing bulgogi beef, spicy octopus, and all manner of delicious Korean food. The owners retired a few years ago, now it’s an extension if the drugstore next door.

Wandering Jewterus
Wandering Jewterus
1 year ago

@Talonknife

Would anyone be interested in this little experiment? I have a disturbing feeling that the incel community would accept random Kemper quotes organized into a post as one of theirs immediately.

I’m a regular reader but a brand new commenter, so I don’t know how much weight you’ll give my words, but I think this is a monumentally bad idea. I’m sorry. I simply don’t see what kind of insights such an experiment would hope to achieve other than confirming a pre-conceived idea of how they’re expected to react (i.e. positively, if not enthusiastically).

It also seems unnecessarily cruel to people who already have an extremely keen and highly toxic persecution complex. I’m not defending them; I think they’re barely human garbage. However, I don’t advocate unnecessary cruelty to any human, even the garbage ones.

The incel community, to paraphrase reddit, is like a poop musum. Look at the poop. Examine and learn from observing the poop. Consider the poop and its place in society and the Universe at large.

But don’t touch the poop, and certainly don’t try to talk to it.

Just my $0.02.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I’d steer clear of that idea as well, Talonknife. We already know that incels are very sympathetic towards murderers. Best case- you waste your time proving something we already know very well. Worst case- you give some of them new ideas.

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
1 year ago

Thirding the sentiment that it’s a bad idea. Their posts are horrible enough – upping the ante will at best feed into their mindsets, at worst inspire one or two of them.

jone (social justice cleric)
jone (social justice cleric)
1 year ago

@Talonknife

Maybe you’re hoping that once they realize how disgusting the man who made the quotes is, how horrific and disgusting his crimes, they will question their incel allegiance entirely?

Giving you the benefit of a doubt there, of course. But now that it’s written out I hope its clear that it isn’t likely to work, for all the reasons already mentioned.

It’s heartbreaking to be honest, that these people care only for themselves, and to hell with women and the world for not giving them what they want.
As sad and vile as it is, their attitudes are not likely to change from any contribution from us. There is clearly no reasoning with them. They can safely be considered a lost cause. If ever they will change, it will be from a change within themselves first.
And I wouldn’t wait on that, unless the government makes Cognitive Behavioral Therapy a fully funded mandate for all citizens (and I wish they would).

As for me, I’m staying away from the poop museum because I can’t stand the smell. This is as close as I will get.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@Talonknife – I think you’ll wind up with problems of being essentially a Poe. By that, I mean not being obvious enough to show that it is satire. (Or, in this case, a terrifying human being.)

If you were still interested in this, perhaps doing a compare and contrast sort of article would be good. Or you could snag a bunch of quotes from them, and then a bunch from Kempler, and then say “guess which ones are from the serial killer?”

But I think it’s important to make sure you don’t accidentally encourage anyone, by having them think that ‘you’ are ‘on their side’.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

Just reading about Kemper and, wow. Yeah, I don’t think it’s a good idea feeding them quotes from him. They’d probably figure it out and elect him “Supreme Heightcel Gentleman” or something. ☹️

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
1 year ago

Cat Mara wrote:

…Heightcel…

I see what you did there.

Nice inversion.

As for Kemper, he’s all kinds of fucked up, but I find it kind of morbidly fascinating that he seemed to realize that his murderous impulses/fantasies had become pointless after he killed his mother, the self-identified source of his rage and hate.

Also, the fact that he used his knowledge of psychology and psychological assessment tools to manipulate his psychologists’ perceptions and analyses of him is an unfortunate data point in support of the notion that psychological evaluation and therapy is of limited use unless the subject either doesn’t know anything about psychology or is a willing and honest participant in the process.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

@Gaebolga: His pathology does seem to have been different to the likes of Ted Bundy or the BTK Killer, two serial killers in particular who seemed to be what one might call actually “evil”, who seemed to derive pleasure from their notoriety, taunting the families of their victims & law enforcement, etc. Which is not to excuse Kemper’s crimes: he could have turned himself in before they escalated to the point they did, but he didn’t.

Also, the fact that he used his knowledge of psychology and psychological assessment tools to manipulate his psychologists’ perceptions and analyses of him is an unfortunate data point in support of the notion that psychological evaluation and therapy is of limited use unless the subject either doesn’t know anything about psychology or is a willing and honest participant in the process.

Heh, that reminds me. Some years ago I was seeing a therapist & I mentioned in passing I knew of the Rorschach test (because of the character in the Watchmen comic) & he insisted on showing me his original, first-edition set of Rorschach blots which he still had stowed away! Probably worth quite a bit at this point though about as much use as one of those phrenology heads…

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

I still haven’t decided if I liked Mindhunter or not, but I will say that the guy playing Kemper did a really good job.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ gaebolga

psychological evaluation and therapy is of limited use unless the subject either doesn’t know anything about psychology

That WAIS-III test I did was part of a seminar on the psychological and neurological tests that get used in the criminal justice system. The most interesting part of that, were exercises where they’d get us to try to ‘fake’ results on various tests. They used that to illustrate some of the methods they use to try to spot that. So, for example, I did a test to see if I was competent to stand trial because of neurological trauma; but it was stuff like “a person with a spike through their head would still get that one right” etc.

It was fun; but illustrates your point

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

Ugh… I mention Ted Bundy & I just discover there’s a new film about him, starring Zac Efron of all people. I guess that’s one way of ensuring your High School Musical days are truly dead & buried…

Bina
1 year ago

@Lainy:

I know what you mean. After my assault I had some people try to comfort me by telling me that it didn’t count as losing my virginity. There was a point where I wanted to make that known because I felt like he took something from me. Not only did he hurt me but he stole something I could never get back. It took looking over my views on sex and dealing with that trauma to let that go. Even after all that pain I certainly wanted to avoid men as much as I possibly could but I never turned into murderous little twerp. Incels can’t tell real pain from a hole in the ground. The combination of them and Peterson bullshit fill me with a special kind of rage that finally got me to comment.

It does, indeed, count as the loss of something: your sense of security and trust, among other things. Nobody’s first encounter with another person’s genitals should EVER be violent, forced, coercive or painful. Nor should it be anything but wanted and consensual. The purity cult obscures this side of the issue as a loss of “value” (note the quotes, there for a reason), but the real loss is not in terms of someone’s value to others on some fictitious marriage market, it’s a personal loss. You have every right to feel any way that you do feel about it, regardless of the “good” intentions of those who tried so ineptly to console you.

Sexually-assaulted people aren’t “damaged goods”, they are wounded people who have had their trust stolen. I know that much because I’ve been assaulted myself. Twice. Once it rose to a level that I can confidently call date rape. It may not have been physically traumatic, or even particularly upsetting in the moment…but it was unwanted, and it destroyed my trust in that man particularly, and hurt my ability to trust men in general. That, and not any supposed loss of “sexual market value”, is the real issue in these instances. We aren’t born mistrusting others; we have mistrust created in us by negative experience. I don’t regard myself as “damaged goods” because I never regarded myself as merchandise. Remembering that you are a person helps a lot, as does understanding that no one has the right to deprive you of your personhood.

And if that offends the so-called “incels” lurking around here reading this, I’m quite all right with that. They can BE offended all they like. They don’t get to redefine what happened to anyone else. Even if they do so love to mischaracterize their own problems and objectify others while deifying themselves. They are wrong on both counts. And I don’t give a damn what they think they’re entitled to; the truth is that they’re entitled to nothing, and that is what they need to come to grips with.

Just like us.

Dalaila
Dalaila
1 year ago

TW: Rape/virginity

I don’t love calling people “inept” for suggesting that rape doesn’t count as taking your virginity. I think it makes sense to rethink whether it’s actually accurate for someone to think of themselves as no longer being a virgin after they were raped. Imo, if they’ve never had consensual sex, that’s what should matter.

& it really helped me to heal once I decided that actually np, I don’t think virginity is something that can be taken from you. It’s given freely & consensually, or not at all.

TRIGGER WARNING: 2 years ago, a bf anally raped me, during what had until then been consensual sex. & feeling like he’d taken something special that he didn’t deserve, & that I could never get back, was actually more devastating for me than all of the other physical & emotional traumas.

Challenging the meaning & importance of the concept of virginity as bestowing or degrading a woman’s “value” is crucial, but it honestly helped me more just to temporarily accept all the stupid toxic baggage around the whole concept of virginity, in order to decide that in fact he had taken nothing from me except 4 months in a shitty toxic relationship & $20 in train fare.

But YMMV, obviously

Red R. Lion
Red R. Lion
1 year ago

@Diego

Because he’s male and White, and that goes a long way in the world, but especially in America.

Certainly helps, but also I think this country is simply allergic to the idea of acting carefully to prevent violence in general and prefers to wait for it to happen and then offer worthless “thoughts and prayers” afterwards.

For what it’s worth, I just looked into getting a restraining order against an abusive woman (as a woman*), and the process is about as horrible and victim blamey as you would expect. Some high(low) lights-

(TW for talk about abuse, violence, and violent psychotics)-

1. Don’t expect domestic violence helpline to help you if it’s not a romantic relationship, even if the situation LEGALLY falls under the definition of “domestic violence”. They’ll listen to your story, tell you they only deal with romantic relationships, give you the number to the correct police station and court house, and wish you good luck.

2. Don’t expect the mental health crisis centers or mental health professionals to help. They’ll listen to your story and repeat over and over that she needs a section 12 EE (involuntary commitment). Until you agree with them because she’s psychotic** and threatening you with physical violence for “stealing her stuff”🤯, and leaving dozens of voicemail messages alluding to suicide because you’ve kicked her out of the house and told her never to contact you again. Then they’ll angrily lecture you that “she has rights”, because she’s telling them that YOU’RE the abuser trying to “ruin her credentials”.***

3. Don’t expect law enforcement to be much help. I had to call them on her 3 times; once to remove her from her property, once because she PHYSICALLY prevented me from leaving her company, and once because she called me dozens of times alluding to suicide as a way to suck me back in and go check on her, and I called a welfare check on her, because I honestly thought she might go through with it. (This one earned her an involuntary week stay in the hospital). The cops said that she impressed them as being extremely toxic, but that she was “a tiny thing”(physically) and that a restraining order was unnecessarily as it was the easiest thing to keep blocking her different numbers and potentially dealing with her violence while waiting for the cops to show up.

Another thing I learned- the above “incel” with a history of threatening women as an idiot because a threat is only legally considered a threat if it’s explicit and direct. No really- my abuser once texted me over 220 times over the course of several hours making indirect threats, but according to the cops indirect threats “could mean anything”. The example the cop actually used was the phrase “You’ll get yours” because it “could mean anything”. Because I guess people often angrily yell “you’ll get your’s” right before offering up some tea and cash? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

So I changed my phone number and I make sure my doors and windows are locked and I live my life super happy now that she’s out of it. I was considering picking up a .22 to keep in my house in case she ever tried (and managed) to break in while she’s having a “bad day”, and is high and violent, but I’m thinking that this will probably make me the aggressor somehow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

Maybe this is part of the reason why “it’s better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6” is such an American phrase? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

*Not really, but I was born with the lady parts.

**This isn’t conjecture and “crazy talk”. She has Bipolar 1 and when manic (which seems to be often) she will abuse any kind of stimulant (or drug) she can get her hands on so she can stay up for days on end to “work”. Predictably, she becomes EXTREMELY paranoid and starts to suffer from delusions and hallucinations and will get violent. She has a long history of involuntarily commitments, drug rehabs, and jailtime from how she gets in this state. She also once more or less admitted to me that shes been diagnosed as having Antisocial Personality Disorder in the past.

***This one actually got her committed for a week. Then they released her, which she likes to use to “prove” to everyone that the Dr’s said she was fine and I am “abusing” her. (Even though I didn’t get her committed, just called the cops). She actually got some people close to me to turn on me, but I don’t care because she’s a. Clearing up the dead weight relationships from out of my life and b. Now can’t make a rational argument to everyone else that I’m a bad person for no longer giving her all my time and financially supporting her because she’s not “sick”, she’s “fine”. Clears my guilt right up.

TL;DR

Violence in America for all genders, races, and stripes; if the victim isn’t dead then they’re lying. Also, if it hasn’t happened, then clearly it never will.

Chris
Chris
1 year ago

The crazy thing is society has already developed a method of redistributing sex, it’s called prostitution. But men think they “deserve” sex for free, and look down on sex workers. Since they don’t think that’s a solution it’s pretty clear they do indeed want to force women. Otherwise they’d be advocating to legalize prostitution and be against slut shaming.

Athirson
Athirson
1 year ago

Aside from being a better way to troll them, wouldn’t “sexual Marxists” be a more accurate moniker?