By David Futrelle
Sorry I’ve been AWOL for a couple of days; I’ve been taking care of some personal stuff (nothing dramatic, just very time-consuming). But there’s so much going on in the world I thought I’d put up an open thread.
Talk about Trump’s shittiness, the shutdown, the dueling Fyre Festival documentaries, the blizzard here in the US, or maybe those snot-nosed racist high school students harassing Native American elder Nathan Phillips, a veteran conducting a ceremony to honor the war dead in DC
On that last point, here are some videos; watch only if you are ready to be enraged. The students, from a Catholic high school, were in DC for the “March for Life,” evidently ran into Phillips by chance, and decided to harass him for being Native American, I guess.
On a somewhat lighter note, there was the whole Ben Shapiro/Baby Hitler thing. Here are several , er, enhanced versions of his remarks at the March for Life on the classic time-travel quandary — “would you kill Hitler when he was a baby?”
Despite Ben’s qualms about killing baby Hitler, he doesn’t actually give a shit about babies and other civilians from enemy countries killed in wars.
In other news:
Speaking of crappy food:
Those MAGA punks don’t practice any kind of Catholicism that I recognize. And their diocese and the school administration appear to agree with me.
“The Diocese of Covington and Covington Catholic High School rebuked the students’ actions and said they could be expelled:
‘We condemn the actions of the Covington Catholic High School students towards Nathan Phillips specifically, and Native Americans in general, Jan. 18, after the March for Life, in Washington, DC,’ the statement said. ‘We extend our deepest apologies to Mr. Phillips.’
“‘This behavior is opposed to the Church’s teachings on the dignity and respect of the human person.'”
@Desperate Ambrose
I guess you’re neither familiar with the historical nor the present day actions and teachings of the Catholic Church.
If anyone is interested, HBomberGuy is live streaming (and has been for the last two days).
So far he has raised $189,000+ for Memaids UK to support trans youth!
Unless they’re a pregnant person. Or a child being abused by a priest. Or a gay person.
@Desperate Ambrose
Oh, that fits perfectly in the behavior that I experienced in 5 years of monastery boarding school (I managed to get through it unmolested, unlike others!). Oppressive atmosphere with constant preaching to give a sense of perpetual self-righteousness and an instant denunciation when people act upon it. Nowhere is bigotry and humility-bragging bigger than among monks.
@Desperate Ambrose @Kupo I think catholocism is very different in different places. This seems to be the Kavenaugh variety.
I have the rather strong impression that the more power the Catholic church has in an area, the worse they behave, and they’re hardly alone in that.
I confess I haven’t seen the full video, because it’s over an hour long, but even assuming the Black Hebrew Israelites were being vile, the MAGA hat bunch don’t look scared or angry, and Mr Phillips certainly doesn’t look threatening. They’re sneering.and mocking and clearly well aware they outnumber Mr Phillips.
On the other hand, they also look about 16. I know you get people saying that Tamir Rice should have known better (aged 12) and Don Trump junior was just a kid when he killed wildlife (aged about 35) but I think 16 year olds should not be treated as adults.
@Sheila Crosby
I don’t know of any Catholic churches which aren’t pro-forced-birth. And I don’t think it’s very fair to the people who have been harmed by the church to take the stance of “well not all Catholic churches” when going all the way up the chain of command they excuse and hide and allow child abuse to keep happening.
There’s part of me that wants to say that naming and shaming of minors isn’t okay.
On the other, the main kid has been identified. His mother is a bigwig at Fidelity. All or most of the other kids are probably very privileged financially as well, as it’s an expensive and very white school in a ritzy suburb.
If these kids have no consequences and don’t show up in a Google search when future potential employers are researching them, they will go to good schools and they will be offered the kinds of well paying jobs as well connected white guys always are. They will go on to have power over others. They will be able to take their racism and misogyny and homophobia out on subordinates. Protecting these kids in the short will so likely hurt others in the long run.
As others have pointed out, these boys are future Brett Kavanaughs.
I’m not comfortable with vigilantism. On the other hand, when privileged people are not held accountable by institutions and if they are young, they are not held accountable by their parents, what other form of justice is left?
@dr. ej
OH GOODNESS!
John Romero just joined the stream and donated and they managed to get the goal!
Darn, I’m so glad he made me his bitch in the 90s!
“I guess you’re neither familiar with the historical nor the present day actions and teachings of the Catholic Church.”
I have a catechism in my library. Please cite relevant chapter(s) and paragraph(s) in which these punks’ behavior is justified and/or encouraged.
Separating things out into a couple posts…
@Katiekitten: That is super sweet of you. I’d love to see the pictures!
That said, I’m going to second what Kupo and Fabe pointed out, especially with DA and Cartman being timely with showing themselves. For big things, David Futrelle has stepped in as a communication intermediary in the past to help shield folks from trolls and spambots, but his willingness to do so is very much related to the importance/magnitude of the thing being communicated.
Additionally, logistics would be a problem: I’ve been bouncing around different dry cabins for a few years now, and currently don’t have a mailbox. My parents (who are awesome) have been awesome about collecting my mail so I can pick it up when I visit, but I’m super leery of giving out their mailing address without their consent.
And shipping to most of Alaska is… super expensive. Like, when I do purchase things online, the shipping is usually more expensive than whatever it is that I bought!
But I heartily thank you for the thought behind it! It’s super sweet and I’d LOVE to see your hard work when you figure out posting pictures, and did I say it was incredibly sweet of you?
Has anybody been following the John Coughlin story? It’s only been starting to gain traction outside of figure skating and its fan base, so I’m guessing maybe not.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2019/01/20/john-coughlin-death-sexual-misconduct/2632092002/
Former pair skater turned coach has sexual misconduct allegations against him. He committed suicide Friday night. Unfortunately, a lot of people are choosing to disbelieve the (still anonymous) survivors and are lashing out at Christine Brennan and Dave from the Skating Lesson for reporting on it, saying they killed him. The community has mostly been defending him, but given that there are now multiple allegations, including two from minors (at the time of the misconduct), it seems to me unlikely that this was a false accusation.
If the story does get bigger and more well known, expect MRA types to get up in arms about it.
@Kupo
I’m not claiming that the Catholic church is entirely benevolent anywhere, only that they’re worse some places than others. In the UK they’re a minority so they don’t try to force their views on the majority – not like the USA where I gather it’s common for the only hospital to be Catholic and refuse abortions even when the mother’s life is in serious danger. I live in the Canary islands where they’re the state religion but congregations are falling fast. Here they are nominally forced birth, but in practice most married couples are using birth control. They’re anti LGBT but very much quieter about it. it’s not good, but it’s not the same as, say, Brazil.
I’m not defending the Catholic church, just saying there are differences from one place to another. I’m certainly not defending their appalling record on child abuse and I’m sorry that I wasn’t clearer.
@Ambrose:
The Catholics actually have a long and very disturbing history with regard to the treatment of native peoples on this continent. You want historical documents? Here is a copy of something called “the Requirement”, which Spanish conquistadors were required to read to any people they encountered:
@Fabe:
I know, I was joking 🙂 Should’ve been clearer about that, sorry!!!
Ms. Crosby ~ I’m pretty sure Catholic hospitals are the exception, rather than the rule. Certainly, it IS possible that, in some areas, the nearest hospital is Catholic.
I expect Rome would call my wife and me renegades, but I think we are doctrinally close to most American Catholics. We tend to think that WE are The Church, and that Rome is more of an administrative center than anything else. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Curia were more inclined to think that they are The Church and that the laity BELONG to The Church. But, then, they seem to exist in a hermetically-sealed environment.
Not at all sure how long that tension can last. It’ll be interesting to see how things shake out.
“The Catholics actually have a long and very disturbing history with regard to the treatment of native peoples on this continent.”
Sadly, you are absolutely right. I wish it weren’t so, but there it is. All we can do is acknowledge that and try to improve things in the here-and-now.
Effecting change in Rome, however, is like trying to turn an aircraft carrier: ponderous and slow. More’s the pity.
Just listening to that wordy speech alone would have been torture.
ADDENDUM: I’m not at all sure that the motives of Rome and the motives of the conquistadors were one and the same.
@KG
Both those books look interesting (and now I have more to read); they got strong reviews in the scholarly journal literature when they came out. There is a very positive review of the Tooze book in Journal of Modern History (80 no. 2: June 2008); a good review there is nothing to sneeze at. Nicholas Bird of RUSI liked Kershaw’s book in his review in International Affairs ( 84, no. 2: (Mar., 2008). Not that book reviews are everything of course — and thank YOU for pointing them out in the present discussion.
Good points too about the myth of Britain “going it alone” in 1940. Polish and Czechoslovak pilots in the Battle of Britain surely were critical contributors. Norway’s continued belligerency in the anti-Axis coalition after the German conquest of June 1940 gave the Allies a huge boost in needed merchant shipping. And of course Netherlands soldiers, sailors and aircrew continued to contribute to the Allied cause too.
And your point about the depth of the resources of the British Empire is really well-taken. Pointing to the superiority in resources over Germany was after all behind Churchill’s argument to Reynaud and his cabinet in June 1940 as to why they should continue the war from North Africa rather than seek an armistice.
There is absolutely no doubt that the vast resources of the British Empire and Commonwealth (and, after 1943 anyway, the French Empire for that matter) played a critical role in the defeat of the Axis.
And when thinking about modern-day Nazis and the struggles against patriarchy and racism today it forces one to confront some tough realities about the history of World War II — namely that a large element of the strategic power of the Allied coalition that ultimately defeated the Nazis came from racist, imperialist and certainly patriarchal power structures. None of that is any news and certainly not a newsflash to an intelligent and informed audience like WHTM regulars but it is important to remember when thinking about the history of the right-wing authoritarianism and fascism that we confront today.
A very stark way I like to put it to students is to take as an example the *incredibly* diverse demography of all the troops under arms in the Allied Forces Headquarters (the overall command to which U.S. 5th Army and British 8th Army were subordinate) in Italy as of, say, spring 1944 right before the fall of Rome.
Think just about the array of *languages* one could find spoken in that force: Arabic, French, Polish, British English, American English, New Zealand English, Maori, Slovak, Czech, Greek (probably some Albanian speakers in the Greek Brigade; you can add Portuguese if you move the date to July 1944 when the FEB gets over there); Punjabi, other South Asian languages (would have to look but probably Pashtun at least); would have to look at the African troops in the CEF but probably Wolof, and not sure of the southern African languages but at least several.
The point is it was INCREDIBLY diverse. And they were all there united together fighting the Axis in the name of democracy against fascism? Right? [so I ask the students…] Then I ask, OK: Well: what proportion of all those men and women under arms in AFHQ in Italy fighting the Axis as of June 1, 1944 *had the right to vote in their homeland*. And that’s only one inelegant way to make the point (i.e. structural inequality can still exist, obviously, even with universal suffrage)!
I often think twice before bringing this kind of thing up just anywhere, because a favorite canard of present-day fascist apologists is to seize on something like that and say “see, see, the people you like were bad too! So you can’t criticize the fascists or you’re a hypocrite! What about British racism in India, huh? Huh? Betcha didn’t think of that you liberal! Hurr-durr better learn yer history.” [eye roll].
I’m still glad the Allies won, obviously, but it’s important to think about this element of their path to victory, I believe, if one cares about reducing inequality.
Now, onto the troll.
Hello Desperate Ambrose! I notice you haven’t been back to the Gillete thread since showing your troll hand with the whole “victims of the war on men” spiel wherein you berated us screeching harpies for our meanness before flouncing off from the menenge with us totally fake personas/robots/hive-mind to the totally real woman waiting in bed for you.
… but that totally wasn’t meant to be an innuendo. No. That would just be too lewd and bawdy, and there’s no way you intended that. /warning:sarcasm
I see you’re here to add #NotAllCatholics to your #NotAllMen! Or are you trying to do a #NoTrueCatholic? It’s hard to tell.
Especially when you immediately turn and go “I’m really a heretic who probably could be excommunicated from the actual Catholic church, so I really mean #NoTrueDA-StyleCatholic”
Do you need me to repost some links to the chatbots so you can have conversations with “not-real” people without wasting our time?
An anecdotal antidote to show that at least some of the kids are all right:
Last fall, at the university where I teach, some punk hung a noose in a tree outside the cafeteria. A picture of it appeared on social media and everybody was in a tizzy. The campus cops went to look and didn’t find anything. The campus Administration put out an email saying there wasn’t really a noose; there were just maybe some ropes that had been used to hang a sheet sign. But the kids knew what they saw. And they knew it was wrong.
Later that day at a student event in my department, a kid was mouthing off and saying horrible things about immigrants and Muslims. This was not going down well in our very diverse department and the other kids were letting him have it. Eventually he bragged about having hung the noose. Even though they knew the kid was armed with a knife, they stood up to him and filmed him bragging about what he’d done. And then they didn’t hesitate and they didn’t consult with anybody, they just called the cops on him. No worry because they didn’t want to get involved, no thought for their own safety.
Kid was rounded up. Administration looks like idiots because they had denied that there was a noose. As it turns out, some white sorority girls had seen the noose and knew it was wrong and had cut it down between the time the picture appeared and the cops got there.
Everybody let the kids down but the kids themselves.
This all happened at a very conservative public school in the south.
@Susan, that’s actually a really nice story. I like it. No sarcasm intended here.
Bad kids, good kids, excellent kids. All hope is not lost.
“I notice you haven’t been back to the Gillete thread. . . .”
I see no point in it, since we appear to be at loggerheads. Nothing to be accomplished there, since you and the rest of your coven had no interest in anything resembling a discussion.
So I’ll let the smug, snarky tone of your “contribution” speak for itself.
@Cat Mara the scary thing about Trigger Warning is that it’s written by a ghost. William W. Johnstone died in 2004. Like a lot of dead authors, and some living ones, he’s now a brand name for stuff written by others. In this case the real author is his niece J.A. Johnstone. Apparently 25 different books were released under his name in 2018.
Not that Johnstone would have minded the plot of this book. He was a writer of heavily right wing books, mainly in the horror, western, and survivalist genres. He most certainly would have ranted about trigger warnings and using people’s preferred pronouns.
A coven? Cool. I like being part of a coven.
Have been before, by the way.