By David Futrelle
Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, the regulars were recently lamenting that the women of today just aren’t as feminine as the lovely ladies of the past — obviously a terribly pressing issue for men who have “gone their own way” away from women and don’t care about them any more, nuh-uh, but somehow end up talking about them all day every day.
“Is it me or are modern women no longer as feminine as before,” someone called Darknesszero79 wondered aloud.
I feel that women are becoming more masculine and more promiscuous and more similar to us
Modern women are no longer ladies and for some reason I no longer feel attracted to them as when I was more innocent
Only very few girls attract me and I feel that even the traps are more feminine than the women of today
“Trap,” in case you’re unfamiliar with this lovely transphobic slur, is a term used by dudes who hang out in shitty places online to describe a trans “girl” or a young crossdresser they find attractive.
It’s a shame because I always wanted to have a family and a good wife but I feel that that does not fit in the modern world
It’s honestly not that much of a shame because every dude who posts on the MGTOW subreddit would make an incredibly shitty husband.
Naturally, most of those responding to Darknesszero79’s lament shared his sadness, with many of them working a good deal of anger into the mix. A fellow called Delita_Wasnt_Wrong managed to be mad that women are supposedly trying hard to become men, while also being mad that these women are, at least according to him, failing at it.
“’They hate us cuz they ain’t us,’” he began.
Women want to be more like men because men are superior. They see strength, intelligence, success etc and think that by the mere act of copying our behavior and looks they’ll be the same.
I believe this woman from an insurance ad has some thoughts on this she would like to share.
Back to the MGTOW dude and his dumb opinions:
But biology doesn’t give a shit how you dress, how you cut your hair, how many shitty tattoos you canvas your body with, and how you attempt to show strength and masculine qualities. At the end of the day, if you don’t have testes, a larger frame and a bigger brain built to handle stress and react to complex situations and challenges, your chameleon attempt will fail.
I think Buck Angel here might disagree with that whole “testes make the man” thing.
And I’m pretty sure Wendy McCready would disagree about the strength thing.
I mean, she could kick my ass, I’m not ashamed to admit.
These poor excuses for women will spend decades trying to be strong and independent because that’s what they were told they should be to be successful, and in the end they’ll be depressed because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, strong and independent dude who spends his evenings trying to impress the second most loserish group of losers on Reddit after the incels.
We Hunted the Mammoth is independent and ad-free, and relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!
Are we sure the miggie-toes are only the second biggest group of losers? I mean, at least the incels are honest enough to admit they still want women. The miggie-toes are just incels who like to pretend to themselves that women are icky.
I was really hoping to force some woman into cooking and cleaning for me and raising my children, but these days women have more economic opportunities, so the only way I’m going to get a woman to marry me is if she actually likes me, an extremely unlikely prospect. Waaaaah *sad wanks*
Also I’m probably not rich enough to support 2+ people on one income because it isn’t 1954, but I forgot that women and children are people and require things like food to live.
You know, I can’t help but think of all those retro Christmas ads that Dave featured back in December where they featured perfectly sculpted women (often in illustrations), all their attention on you trying to sell you something. We internalize a lot of that, particularly if we grow up watching television. That was probably one of the more poignant things about the Gillette ad: calling attention to the messages that we absorb through mass media.
If your concept of an “attractive woman” is formed almost entirely by airbrushed models in advertising campaigns, then yeah, you’re going to have a skewed concept of what women really look like. It’s not like women with tattoos and short hair popped up in just the past decade; they’ve been around since at least Victorian times, if not further. A poor Victorian woman might actually make her bones competing in bare-knuckle boxing matches. That was a thing.
Strikes me that these people are upset that people who were previously relegated to the fringes of society are now obtaining some of the attention currency that social media operates on. Well, all I gotta say to them is “deal with it.”
Oh, women are quite good at dealing with stress. I mean, we’re generally not the ones going on shooting sprees, right?
They probably hated Peter Jackson’s dwarf women, too:
I’m remembering that guy who posed as a woman on OkCupid to prove that women have it easier and had to shut down the account within hours because he couldn’t handle barrage of creepy dudes.
Being a woman is stressful as fuck.
I’m guessing that the other of this screed would never leave the house again after experiencing a day in the life of a woman. The catcalls alone would do him in.
I’m also guessing he’s white and cishet and doesn’t have to deal with the stresses of racism or being non heteronormative either.
Re: “the traps are more feminine”
I would love to be able to go out into the world without working so hard at presentation. Even when I go for an early morning hike, I’ve got to put on some makeup at least.
Not to “attract men”. Not just to “be feminine”. Not to “be noticed”.
The opposite, actually. I’m just trying to be safe. Femme enough to be cataloged as a woman and ignored. I dial up the presentation just so I won’t have to deal with anyone who cannot stand the idea that I exist.
(I’m white, so I cannot really call it a safety thing. I’m not likely to be attacked physically even in the US South. I’m not claiming that.)
Aren’t these the same guys who have titanic meltdowns over shaving ads?
@Brandy
Never thought of that. Thank you, and really sorry you have need to.
Fun fact: Big brains can have massive downsides. At some point, the compartmentalized lobes are too far apart and the whole thing slows.
And if we indulge their pseudo-scientific evopsych nonsense for a moment: Do they think that child rearing, keeping the tribe together and turning rocks into homes WASN’T stressful with complex situations and challenges?
I don’t usually take this shit too personally, but I’m honestly offended that some random misogynist on the internet thinks my ladybrain can’t handle “complex situations.” I’m the fucking master of figuring shit out, so I would like to kindly invite him to come at me, bro.
For real, though, that’s the first time I’ve heard this particular stereotype. Manly strength? Manly spatial reasoning? Yes. Manly complexity? That’s news to me.
(FWIW, he’s not entirely wrong that women will embody traditionally masculine traits because they believe them to be superior. That’s called internalized misogyny, and it’s pretty rampant. It took me about 35 years to figure out that just because something was feminine didn’t mean it was inferior.)
“Women can’t handle complex and challenging situations”, so that’s why these guys leave it up to women to handle family schedules, oversee school work and activities, remember birthdays and holidays, feed the family nutritious meals on a budget, make sure everyone has clean clothes that fit, keep the kids up to date on vaccinations and dental work, care for sick children and elderly parents, keep in touch with relatives, navigate awkward social situations, etc. etc. All that work is invisible to them, so they don’t understand how much multi-tasking mothers, wives, girlfriends, and partners do on a daily basis.
Meanwhile, the super galaxy brains of MGTOW react to complex and challenging situations by reducing everybody to chads and NPCs. (Or inanimate body parts, if they’re supercluster-brained.)
Hi @Castrating Harpy! Haven’t seen you before here. Welcome to da commentspace. (Also hello to other new peeps further up!)
Yeah, it’s a thing they say. They have a pretty bad case of “everything good is on my side, everything bad is on yours.” And it’s only seemed to get worse over the past years – almost like there’s something egging them on or something. It doesn’t mean anything, it doesn’t come from anywhere, it’s as simple as neurology. Bad thing and female are connected concepts in their brain, and bad thing connects to a whole lot more. Confirmation bias does the rest of the work.
@Sclidfreja – thanks for the warm welcome! I’ve been around for months, just don’t comment very often.
I suppose it’s inevitable that anything that’s perceived as good will eventually be claimed as masculine by these poor bastards, since they’re fighting to maintain the masculine=superior status quo.
Yep. The opposite is true, too. Anything negative gets feminine associations, and vice versa.
“Pumpkin spice” is my favourite example of that. These Traditionalist men are usually quick to talk about the superiority of western civilization in the tiresome confluence of bigotry-bingo, but they fail to note that “pumpkin spice” is the exact same combination of spices as often found in traditional western European cooking. Cloves! Nutmeg! Cinnamon! Considered very fancy status symbols in the medieval period, and once colonialism stamped its cruel boot down on the spice producing cultures (to our eternal shame) it entered the common pantry.
These chodes should be happy to see a return of these traditional spices into our cultural taste. But they’re candles and lattes and other girly things, so the doods have no choice – they have to sneer. Doing otherwise would be admitting that there might be a good girly-thing out there, and that thought would just shatter them.
In a word, yes. Misogynists have always assumed that anything categorized as ‘women’s work’ must be super easy. See also people who think that being a stay-at-home parent must be a big holiday where you do nothing but have fun playing with your kids.
@Brandy
Same here. I do enjoy the way it looks, but male is the default and without obvious cues, I get read as a dude nearly every time.
I avoid pumpkin spice lattes for an even sillier reason. I don’t like pumpkin pie or other pumpkin dishes. Intellectually, I know the lattes are not pumpkin flavored, they are flavored with the spice combination used in pumpkin pie. Emotionally, I can’t shake the feeling that it’s going to taste like pumpkin. Salted caramel and mocha are better way, so on the rare occasions when I drink a latte, I’m going for that instead of pumpkin spice.
@Scildfreja
There was a TV special a few years back where the people on it tried to accurately reproduce a ‘Tudor Feast’, a big feast from the time of Henry VIII, using only the equipment and foods available at the time.
One of the things that they talked about was cinnamon, which was indeed a fancy status symbol. As they said on the show, cinnamon was so expensive that you could commission, build from scratch, crew and provision three whole ships to go off to get cinnamon… and if one of those three ships returned you had more than made back your investment. The hold full of cinnamon was worth more than the two lost ships.
But, as you at least imply in your own comment, folks like this (well, folks in general, really, but especially folks focused on a mythical golden age like this) tend not to appreciate just how different times were back then. And how much better we almost all have it now.
Well then, I guess elephants and whales must be smartest of all, given how much bigger their frames and brains are than those of either men or women! ?
(Source)
@weirwood: it’s quite possible that if the item has “other natural and artificial flavors” in it that it has a synthetic pumpkin flavor in it, which you may be tasting and disliking.
“…in the end they’ll be depressed because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.”
Okay, let’s say that the typical biologically inferior woman has and raises children at a young age, just as she’s told to and ‘wants’ to, and let’s say further that she follows the manospherian timetable for such things, and starts out quite early, let’s say at sixteen. Let’s say she’s a crackerjack child-haver-and-raiser, and that all goes well so that she’s able flawlessly to discharge her main purpose in life by the age of 45 or 46 — at which time her last baby leaves the nest. She’s pumped out and brought up four to six kids in the space of thirty years, and they’ve all turned out okay, and the ones who are of an age for it are busy starting families of their own. So, this is the point at which she gets to retire, covered in glory, clutching her reichsmutter medal. Super.
Now, here comes the kicker. What does she do with the rest of her life? She’s only 45. In America she’s likely to live for about another 35-36 years and in most of the rest of the developed world she’ll last longer than that. She is no longer appealing to men (or so the theory goes) — according to the manospherian timetable for such things, she’s years past her sell-by date and her attractiveness is nil. She can babysit her kids’ kids from time to time, but since the world most of the manospherians propose is one composed not of extended but of nuclear families (so that a young man can get out from under his parents’ thumb at the age of 19 or 20 and start bossing a household of his own) this is going to be a part-time occupation at best. She’s perfected her household routine, and her house runs more smoothly with no kids around to cause disruptions to it anyway. She was there to have babies and raise them, and in the absence of babies her life lacks a purpose; and is, effectually, at an end.
Now the truth is, people don’t like having their obituaries written out for them when they’re only halfway through their lives. Just think of all the fuss the mostly-male assembly-line workers in the Rust Belt kicked up when their plants were closed down and their jobs disappeared. That fuss, BTW, has not yet died down; we have by no means heard the last of it. In fact, a case could be made that it’s getting louder by the day. Of course you’re always free to say “once I have no more use for you, you’ve got my permission to go ahead and vanish” but if you’re trying to win people over to your POV, that’s not the line to take, because you leave your targets with no incentive to agree with you or to carry out your wishes. Equally of course, if you’re not concerned with winning people over, then you can say what you damn please, but you’ll be destitute of converts — and it won’t be the fault of your prospects, it’ll be owing to decisions of your own. (Sorry for length.)
men: *create a society where all the virtues associated with material success are considered masculine*
women: *try to achieve material success*
men: “Why are women acting like men??”
That last part made me shiver. They’re incapable of seeing women as people, rather just walking wombs. Hence why they attach the idea of replacing women, the half of the species entirely, with artificial wombs and artificial eggs. It’s why I’ve seen and read so many of those mgtows happily hope for the day when women are gone as a whole. Because we aren’t people. We’re just accessories, add ons.. Ugh.
They lack for so much basic human empathy. And they still expect women to want children with them.
Have you ever noticed mgtow youtubers and their subscriptions. Almost always they follow and watch very “traditional” alt right girls (Lauren Southern and Faith Goldy for example) who always talk down to other women and carry out the same hateful vitriol as the alt right men. These are apparently what they want in women. A “Pick Me” “I’m The Cool Girl” type who hate other women, feminism and want no rights as a person but the right to stay in the kitchen…
@Jenora Fuer
The people who were on the ships that didn’t come back might argue about that bit…