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entitled babies evil manly ladies gender policing male supremacy men who should not ever be with women ever MGTOW misogyny reddit transphobia

Women should stop trying to be so manly, because it makes huge internet losers sad

By David Futrelle

Over in the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit, the regulars were recently lamenting that the women of today just aren’t as feminine as the lovely ladies of the past — obviously a terribly pressing issue for men who have “gone their own way” away from women and don’t care about them any more, nuh-uh, but somehow end up talking about them all day every day.

“Is it me or are modern women no longer as feminine as before,” someone called Darknesszero79 wondered aloud.

I feel that women are becoming more masculine and more promiscuous and more similar to us

Modern women are no longer ladies and for some reason I no longer feel attracted to them as when I was more innocent

Only very few girls attract me and I feel that even the traps are more feminine than the women of today

“Trap,” in case you’re unfamiliar with this lovely transphobic slur, is a term used by dudes who hang out in shitty places online to describe a trans “girl” or a young crossdresser they find attractive.

It’s a shame because I always wanted to have a family and a good wife but I feel that that does not fit in the modern world

It’s honestly not that much of a shame because every dude who posts on the MGTOW subreddit would make an incredibly shitty husband.

Naturally, most of those responding to Darknesszero79’s lament shared his sadness, with many of them working a good deal of anger into the mix. A fellow called Delita_Wasnt_Wrong managed to be mad that women are supposedly trying hard to become men, while also being mad that these women are, at least according to him, failing at it.

“’They hate us cuz they ain’t us,’” he began.

Women want to be more like men because men are superior. They see strength, intelligence, success etc and think that by the mere act of copying our behavior and looks they’ll be the same.

I believe this woman from an insurance ad has some thoughts on this she would like to share.

Back to the MGTOW dude and his dumb opinions:

But biology doesn’t give a shit how you dress, how you cut your hair, how many shitty tattoos you canvas your body with, and how you attempt to show strength and masculine qualities. At the end of the day, if you don’t have testes, a larger frame and a bigger brain built to handle stress and react to complex situations and challenges, your chameleon attempt will fail.

I think Buck Angel here might disagree with that whole “testes make the man” thing.

And I’m pretty sure Wendy McCready would disagree about the strength thing.

I mean, she could kick my ass, I’m not ashamed to admit.

These poor excuses for women will spend decades trying to be strong and independent because that’s what they were told they should be to be successful, and in the end they’ll be depressed because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that, strong and independent dude who spends his evenings trying to impress the second most loserish group of losers on Reddit after the incels.

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Meteor
2 years ago

When women ‘act like men,’ they don’t like us. And when we ‘act like women,’ they don’t like us.

Is it any wonder some people wind up insane?

AK
AK
2 years ago

“It’s honestly not that much of a shame because every dude who posts on the MGTOW subreddit would make an incredibly shitty husband.”

…and father.

I would add we do not want these guys contributing to the gene pool nor for them to have the opportunity to expose their shitty attitudes, actions, and beliefs to an impressionable young mind.

Valkyrine
Valkyrine
2 years ago

Do you think getting Hello Kitty and butterfly tattoos would also be regarded as trying to be more like men? 🤔

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Modern women are no longer ladies

Most women were never ladies. Lady means an aristocrat who has no other job but to be beautiful and charming. Most women in whatever time period this dude is nostalgic for would’ve worked all day in the fields or the household or the shops. Getting sweaty and dusty and dirty.

An Impish Pepper
An Impish Pepper
2 years ago

These poor excuses for women will spend decades trying to be strong and independent because that’s what they were told they should be to be successful, and in the end they’ll be depressed because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.

This idea seems to have a lot of traction in right-wing circles, and the sad thing is that it’s almost right (other than the biology thing, which is totally wrong). The problem is it’s not just women who end up like this. Basically everybody is suffering from this, especially millennials and probably post-millennials (trying not to use the derivative-of-Gen-X terminology as I’m rather sick of it):

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/millennials-burnout-generation-debt-work
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/millennial-burnout-perspectives

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ WWTH

I hope I’m not veering into ‘well actually’ territory; you are of course entirely correct in your point. That is very much the case now. Interestingly enough though, once upon a time ‘Lady’ had pretty feminist origins.

In the Danelaw era, the law was that wives of Lords adopted the full powers of their husbands whilst their husbands were not present. The wife also took the title ‘Lord’ to acknowledge this.

But when Æthelred died, all the other Lords wanted his wife, Æthelflæd, to take over; she’d pretty much been running things anyway.

She agreed, but she refused to continue with the adopted title of Lord. She wanted something that recognised she ruled in her own right, not as some appendage to her late husband.

So she commissioned her scribes to find something suitable; and they came up with Myrcna hlædige; ‘Lady of the Mercians’.

But to get back to your original point, it soon degenerated into its ‘wife of a nobleman’ meaning.

epitome of incomprehensibility

At the end of the day, if you don’t have (…) a bigger brain built to handle stress and react to complex situations and challenges, your chameleon attempt will fail.

What.

Mr. Biology seems to think that the brain is the only organ in the body that reacts to stress.

Guess what I learned in school about the HPA axis (and the nervous system more generally) is Fake News or something.

But then, I am not a biologist like Mr. Biology here, who also claims that bigger brains react more productively to stress. The bigness of one’s brain is directly proportional to one’s stress-solving ability.

Glad that’s sorted out.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Dude’s right. Women are less “feminine” now – if by feminine you mean something out of a 50s advert or sitcom.

It’s a feature. Not a bug.

Talonknife
Talonknife
2 years ago

Seriously, what is it with these guys and tattoos? Tattoos are awesome!

Bina
2 years ago

I think the root of all their problems is basically this: A woman exists as a full-fledged person, not silent or ornamental (whatever their idea of that may be), and that makes their willies go FOOP back into their bellies, dragging their testicles along with ’em.
comment image

“It’s a shame because I always wanted to have a family and a good wife but I feel that that does not fit in the modern world”

Well, actually, it does, but only if you’re not a fucking asshole to your wife. You have to be good too, you know.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
2 years ago

Here’s a thing about brains: It’s not how big it is, it’s how you use it!

Isn’t that what certain men always tell us?

I’m agender. I dress mostly in men’s clothing. BECAUSE IT HAS POCKETS. And I hate skirts. Women’s clothing also often comes in pastels only. I look like a corps in pastels.

I wear plus sizes. Men’s plus sizes go higher, are cheaper AND better quality than women’s plus sizes in many cases.

I so don’t give a fuck about looking masculine or feminine, because I am neither.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

It’s a shame because I always wanted to have a family and a good wife but I feel that that does not fit in the modern world

No, it’s not a shame. Not at all. A family and a wife require a great deal of empathy and responsibility. You don’t have these qualities. Stick with what you’re good at: whining on the Internet.

BeastMistress
BeastMistress
2 years ago

…I dress mostly in men’s clothing. BECAUSE IT HAS POCKETS. And I hate skirts. Women’s clothing also often comes in pastels only. I look like a corps in pastels.

I wear plus sizes. Men’s plus sizes go higher, are cheaper AND better quality than women’s plus sizes in many cases.

*desperately looks for LIKE button*

Not to mention that mens plus sizes fit me better because the waistbands are higher and sit at my waist instead of below my naval and the shirts come down far enough I’m not flashing skin or getting a chill every time I slightly raise my arms.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@Talonknife
Idk something about sullying purity or some shit.

Snowberry
Snowberry
2 years ago

Eh, I don’t really give a flip anymore about gender presentation. Sometimes I wear dresses and skirts. Though I’m weirded out by skirts with fake pockets – jeans I can understand, even if I disagree with the reasoning, but skirts? Sometimes I wear “men’s clothes”. I’m all for men in lingerie, sometimes they can be quite hot that way. You’re totally free to not be attracted to people, or be turned off by the outfits they wear. Just expect consequences if you’re a jerk about it.

I’d say to let people have their own style, whether clothing or hair or body mods or other preferences, but it’s not yet a world which it is feasible for most under ordinary circumstances. This is one of the few areas where men get it worse. Fuck the style police. Though I’m not sure what to do about people who wear clothing with deliberately sexist/racist/whateverist messages for the purpose of causing deliberate offense or being a free speech troll.

Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent, Bard of the New Movement
Troubelle: Moonbeam Malcontent, Bard of the New Movement
2 years ago

Y’know, I’m genderqueer, but I get the feeling these kinds of people would refuse to adknowledge that’s a _thing_ and instead assume that I am instead a delusional woman.

Given that I present masc or mixed quite often, they’d perhaps assume I’m part of their, ahem, “problem”.

Maybe that’s part of the confusion?

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Talonknife

Probably the same issues they have with neon colored hair.

Personally I’m planning to get some ink myself for my birth day this year.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Any reason why the original header image and any references to it were taken out of the blogpost?

Snowberry
Snowberry
2 years ago

@Ariblester: Maybe David thought that a woman with a slug mustache was more amusing than a woman with a real beard?

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

@Snowberry

Ah, yes, I heard the slug balancing act was a hit with the boys down in the trenches back in the Great War.

(Seriously, though, I hope it wasn’t because the linked site got brigaded by manospherians)

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
2 years ago

It was a very pretty beard, though. Kinda makes me wish I could grow one. I would definitely put glitter in it, maybe some fairy lights and fun colors of dye.

Mayu Kitsune
Mayu Kitsune
2 years ago

MTOWs are really sad, they kinda represent the fullest of like men who are afraid of not reaching their own impossible standard of men. They keep saying people like me, gender fluid or trans people, are hurting men but really from what I’ve seen, these dudes really need to learn that gender is what ever you fucking want it to be, and you should do you

ellesar
ellesar
2 years ago

These losers are really behind the times aren’t they?

Whether they were protesting or merely making their voices heard, suffragettes in general were depicted as unattraactive, unfeminine, neglectful of their families and husbands, or incapable of getting a husband at all.

The ‘unfeminine’ used as insult is hardly new, and pretty much is always used by men when women fight for equal rights, greater independence, and of course that old chestnut: have relationships with other women.

Knitting Cat Lady
Knitting Cat Lady
2 years ago

I have fuzz on my upper lip and fairly long fluff along my jaw.

Basically a mustache and side burns.

As it’s all blonde it’s invisible.

I have contact allergies for some metals. And I’m a total wuss. So no tats for me. I do like them on other people, though.

And on occasion I dye my hair unnatural colours.

And I’m deathfat.

I guess I’m the stereotypical fat, ugly, feminist.

That’s not the reason I don’t have a partner (of any gender), though. Being asexual and aromantic has more to do with that…

TheKND
TheKND
2 years ago

Why do I always feel like these people have yet to rad a single book about events in real life?
Yeah, back then, women were feminine! Back in the 50s, when they just got done working in factories and clearing the rubble from the war and… erm… I mean before that! When they worked in factories and… NO… before industrialization! When they worked on farms and in the fields and… erm…
It’s almost as if their view of the world comes from picture books

kobun37
kobun37
2 years ago

Are we sure the miggie-toes are only the second biggest group of losers? I mean, at least the incels are honest enough to admit they still want women. The miggie-toes are just incels who like to pretend to themselves that women are icky.

Viscaria
Viscaria
2 years ago

I was really hoping to force some woman into cooking and cleaning for me and raising my children, but these days women have more economic opportunities, so the only way I’m going to get a woman to marry me is if she actually likes me, an extremely unlikely prospect. Waaaaah *sad wanks*

Also I’m probably not rich enough to support 2+ people on one income because it isn’t 1954, but I forgot that women and children are people and require things like food to live.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Modern women are no longer ladies and for some reason I no longer feel attracted to them as when I was more innocent

You know, I can’t help but think of all those retro Christmas ads that Dave featured back in December where they featured perfectly sculpted women (often in illustrations), all their attention on you trying to sell you something. We internalize a lot of that, particularly if we grow up watching television. That was probably one of the more poignant things about the Gillette ad: calling attention to the messages that we absorb through mass media.

If your concept of an “attractive woman” is formed almost entirely by airbrushed models in advertising campaigns, then yeah, you’re going to have a skewed concept of what women really look like. It’s not like women with tattoos and short hair popped up in just the past decade; they’ve been around since at least Victorian times, if not further. A poor Victorian woman might actually make her bones competing in bare-knuckle boxing matches. That was a thing.

Strikes me that these people are upset that people who were previously relegated to the fringes of society are now obtaining some of the attention currency that social media operates on. Well, all I gotta say to them is “deal with it.”

LindsayIrene
LindsayIrene
2 years ago

a bigger brain built to handle stress

Oh, women are quite good at dealing with stress. I mean, we’re generally not the ones going on shooting sprees, right?

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
2 years ago

They probably hated Peter Jackson’s dwarf women, too:

comment image

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’m remembering that guy who posed as a woman on OkCupid to prove that women have it easier and had to shut down the account within hours because he couldn’t handle barrage of creepy dudes.

Being a woman is stressful as fuck.

I’m guessing that the other of this screed would never leave the house again after experiencing a day in the life of a woman. The catcalls alone would do him in.

I’m also guessing he’s white and cishet and doesn’t have to deal with the stresses of racism or being non heteronormative either.

Brandy
Brandy
2 years ago

Re: “the traps are more feminine”

I would love to be able to go out into the world without working so hard at presentation. Even when I go for an early morning hike, I’ve got to put on some makeup at least.

Not to “attract men”. Not just to “be feminine”. Not to “be noticed”.

The opposite, actually. I’m just trying to be safe. Femme enough to be cataloged as a woman and ignored. I dial up the presentation just so I won’t have to deal with anyone who cannot stand the idea that I exist.

(I’m white, so I cannot really call it a safety thing. I’m not likely to be attacked physically even in the US South. I’m not claiming that.)

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

a bigger brain built to handle stress and react to complex situations and challenges

Aren’t these the same guys who have titanic meltdowns over shaving ads?

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Brandy

Never thought of that. Thank you, and really sorry you have need to.

TheKND
TheKND
2 years ago

a bigger brain built to handle stress and react to complex situations and challenges

Fun fact: Big brains can have massive downsides. At some point, the compartmentalized lobes are too far apart and the whole thing slows.
And if we indulge their pseudo-scientific evopsych nonsense for a moment: Do they think that child rearing, keeping the tribe together and turning rocks into homes WASN’T stressful with complex situations and challenges?

Castrating Harpy
Castrating Harpy
2 years ago

I don’t usually take this shit too personally, but I’m honestly offended that some random misogynist on the internet thinks my ladybrain can’t handle “complex situations.” I’m the fucking master of figuring shit out, so I would like to kindly invite him to come at me, bro.

For real, though, that’s the first time I’ve heard this particular stereotype. Manly strength? Manly spatial reasoning? Yes. Manly complexity? That’s news to me.

(FWIW, he’s not entirely wrong that women will embody traditionally masculine traits because they believe them to be superior. That’s called internalized misogyny, and it’s pretty rampant. It took me about 35 years to figure out that just because something was feminine didn’t mean it was inferior.)

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

“Women can’t handle complex and challenging situations”, so that’s why these guys leave it up to women to handle family schedules, oversee school work and activities, remember birthdays and holidays, feed the family nutritious meals on a budget, make sure everyone has clean clothes that fit, keep the kids up to date on vaccinations and dental work, care for sick children and elderly parents, keep in touch with relatives, navigate awkward social situations, etc. etc. All that work is invisible to them, so they don’t understand how much multi-tasking mothers, wives, girlfriends, and partners do on a daily basis.

Meanwhile, the super galaxy brains of MGTOW react to complex and challenging situations by reducing everybody to chads and NPCs. (Or inanimate body parts, if they’re supercluster-brained.)

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Hi @Castrating Harpy! Haven’t seen you before here. Welcome to da commentspace. (Also hello to other new peeps further up!)

For real, though, that’s the first time I’ve heard this particular stereotype.

Yeah, it’s a thing they say. They have a pretty bad case of “everything good is on my side, everything bad is on yours.” And it’s only seemed to get worse over the past years – almost like there’s something egging them on or something. It doesn’t mean anything, it doesn’t come from anywhere, it’s as simple as neurology. Bad thing and female are connected concepts in their brain, and bad thing connects to a whole lot more. Confirmation bias does the rest of the work.

Castrating Harpy
Castrating Harpy
2 years ago

@Sclidfreja – thanks for the warm welcome! I’ve been around for months, just don’t comment very often.

I suppose it’s inevitable that anything that’s perceived as good will eventually be claimed as masculine by these poor bastards, since they’re fighting to maintain the masculine=superior status quo.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Yep. The opposite is true, too. Anything negative gets feminine associations, and vice versa.

“Pumpkin spice” is my favourite example of that. These Traditionalist men are usually quick to talk about the superiority of western civilization in the tiresome confluence of bigotry-bingo, but they fail to note that “pumpkin spice” is the exact same combination of spices as often found in traditional western European cooking. Cloves! Nutmeg! Cinnamon! Considered very fancy status symbols in the medieval period, and once colonialism stamped its cruel boot down on the spice producing cultures (to our eternal shame) it entered the common pantry.

These chodes should be happy to see a return of these traditional spices into our cultural taste. But they’re candles and lattes and other girly things, so the doods have no choice – they have to sneer. Doing otherwise would be admitting that there might be a good girly-thing out there, and that thought would just shatter them.

Citerior Motive
Citerior Motive
2 years ago

Do they think that child rearing, keeping the tribe together and turning rocks into homes WASN’T stressful with complex situations and challenges?

In a word, yes. Misogynists have always assumed that anything categorized as ‘women’s work’ must be super easy. See also people who think that being a stay-at-home parent must be a big holiday where you do nothing but have fun playing with your kids.

Bakunin
Bakunin
2 years ago

@Brandy
Same here. I do enjoy the way it looks, but male is the default and without obvious cues, I get read as a dude nearly every time.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I avoid pumpkin spice lattes for an even sillier reason. I don’t like pumpkin pie or other pumpkin dishes. Intellectually, I know the lattes are not pumpkin flavored, they are flavored with the spice combination used in pumpkin pie. Emotionally, I can’t shake the feeling that it’s going to taste like pumpkin. Salted caramel and mocha are better way, so on the rare occasions when I drink a latte, I’m going for that instead of pumpkin spice.

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
2 years ago

@Scildfreja

Cloves! Nutmeg! Cinnamon! Considered very fancy status symbols in the medieval period […]

There was a TV special a few years back where the people on it tried to accurately reproduce a ‘Tudor Feast’, a big feast from the time of Henry VIII, using only the equipment and foods available at the time.

One of the things that they talked about was cinnamon, which was indeed a fancy status symbol. As they said on the show, cinnamon was so expensive that you could commission, build from scratch, crew and provision three whole ships to go off to get cinnamon… and if one of those three ships returned you had more than made back your investment. The hold full of cinnamon was worth more than the two lost ships.

But, as you at least imply in your own comment, folks like this (well, folks in general, really, but especially folks focused on a mythical golden age like this) tend not to appreciate just how different times were back then. And how much better we almost all have it now.

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
2 years ago

…a larger frame and a bigger brain…

Well then, I guess elephants and whales must be smartest of all, given how much bigger their frames and brains are than those of either men or women! 🙄

Adjusting for age, on average, they found that women tended to have significantly thicker cortices than men. Thicker cortices have been associated with higher scores on a variety of cognitive and general intelligence tests. Meanwhile, men had higher brain volumes than women in every subcortical region they looked at, including the hippocampus (which plays broad roles in memory and spatial awareness), the amygdala (emotions, memory, and decision-making), striatum (learning, inhibition, and reward-processing), and thalamus (processing and relaying sensory information to other parts of the brain).

When the researchers adjusted the numbers to look at the subcortical regions relative to overall brain size, the comparisons became much closer: There were only 14 regions where men had higher brain volume and 10 regions where women did.

Volumes and cortical thickness between men also tended to vary much more than they did between women…

(Source)

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

@weirwood: it’s quite possible that if the item has “other natural and artificial flavors” in it that it has a synthetic pumpkin flavor in it, which you may be tasting and disliking.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

…in the end they’ll be depressed because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.

Okay, let’s say that the typical biologically inferior woman has and raises children at a young age, just as she’s told to and ‘wants’ to, and let’s say further that she follows the manospherian timetable for such things, and starts out quite early, let’s say at sixteen. Let’s say she’s a crackerjack child-haver-and-raiser, and that all goes well so that she’s able flawlessly to discharge her main purpose in life by the age of 45 or 46 — at which time her last baby leaves the nest. She’s pumped out and brought up four to six kids in the space of thirty years, and they’ve all turned out okay, and the ones who are of an age for it are busy starting families of their own. So, this is the point at which she gets to retire, covered in glory, clutching her reichsmutter medal. Super.

Now, here comes the kicker. What does she do with the rest of her life? She’s only 45. In America she’s likely to live for about another 35-36 years and in most of the rest of the developed world she’ll last longer than that. She is no longer appealing to men (or so the theory goes) — according to the manospherian timetable for such things, she’s years past her sell-by date and her attractiveness is nil. She can babysit her kids’ kids from time to time, but since the world most of the manospherians propose is one composed not of extended but of nuclear families (so that a young man can get out from under his parents’ thumb at the age of 19 or 20 and start bossing a household of his own) this is going to be a part-time occupation at best. She’s perfected her household routine, and her house runs more smoothly with no kids around to cause disruptions to it anyway. She was there to have babies and raise them, and in the absence of babies her life lacks a purpose; and is, effectually, at an end.

Now the truth is, people don’t like having their obituaries written out for them when they’re only halfway through their lives. Just think of all the fuss the mostly-male assembly-line workers in the Rust Belt kicked up when their plants were closed down and their jobs disappeared. That fuss, BTW, has not yet died down; we have by no means heard the last of it. In fact, a case could be made that it’s getting louder by the day. Of course you’re always free to say “once I have no more use for you, you’ve got my permission to go ahead and vanish” but if you’re trying to win people over to your POV, that’s not the line to take, because you leave your targets with no incentive to agree with you or to carry out your wishes. Equally of course, if you’re not concerned with winning people over, then you can say what you damn please, but you’ll be destitute of converts — and it won’t be the fault of your prospects, it’ll be owing to decisions of your own. (Sorry for length.)

Amtep
Amtep
2 years ago

men: *create a society where all the virtues associated with material success are considered masculine*

women: *try to achieve material success*

men: “Why are women acting like men??”

tohka
tohka
2 years ago

because they didn’t get what their brain and biology really wanted in the first place – to have and raise children at a young age.

That last part made me shiver. They’re incapable of seeing women as people, rather just walking wombs. Hence why they attach the idea of replacing women, the half of the species entirely, with artificial wombs and artificial eggs. It’s why I’ve seen and read so many of those mgtows happily hope for the day when women are gone as a whole. Because we aren’t people. We’re just accessories, add ons.. Ugh.

They lack for so much basic human empathy. And they still expect women to want children with them.

Have you ever noticed mgtow youtubers and their subscriptions. Almost always they follow and watch very “traditional” alt right girls (Lauren Southern and Faith Goldy for example) who always talk down to other women and carry out the same hateful vitriol as the alt right men. These are apparently what they want in women. A “Pick Me” “I’m The Cool Girl” type who hate other women, feminism and want no rights as a person but the right to stay in the kitchen…

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Jenora Fuer

As they said on the show, cinnamon was so expensive that you could commission, build from scratch, crew and provision three whole ships to go off to get cinnamon… and if one of those three ships returned you had more than made back your investment. The hold full of cinnamon was worth more than the two lost ships.

The people who were on the ships that didn’t come back might argue about that bit…