By David Futrelle
I ran across this Tweet this morning from an intrepid Jordan Peterson debunker on Twitter and, well, it’s pretty much spot on:
https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1083015376022224896
For evidence of this, we need look no further than some of the off-the-cuff comments about birth control and the allegedly scary consequences of women controlling their own sexuality that Peterson recently made to a small audience that included, among others, Charlie Kirk, “Bumble Jack” Posobiec, and weirdo MAGA couple Donald Trump Jr. and Kimberly Guilfoyle at Turning Point USA’s annual Student Action Summit.
As Sam Seder points out in this clip from his Majority Report show, Peterson seems to be pushing the idea that what he sees as feminists’ preoccupation with sexual consent is basically a left-wing “sexual taboo” roughly equivalent to the right-wing “taboo” against gay sex. (Peterson being Peterson, he doesn’t quite come out and say this outright.)
Sam has been taking on Peterson’s nonsense for some time. Here’s another video in which Sam discusses a Peterson appearance on the Joe Rogan show in which Rogan, an oddball in his own right but still pretty sharp, gobsmacks the Canadian beef-eater by pointing out a very basic issue with his promotion of “enforced monogamy.”
While Peterson’s utterances do seem to be getting weirder by the day, he’s been saying awful crap about the often fraught relationship between women and men for years. And for a time, during a sort of pickup artist phase, he did so dressed like a 1930s gangster.
Sam’s got a video on that, too.
And this guy is seen as a leading light in the “intellectual dark web.” It’s really a testament to how fucked up this political moment is that a cornball weirdo like Peterson is taken seriously by anyone at all, much less the adoring throngs that attend his talks and watch his videos and buy his books.
We Hunted the Mammoth is independent and ad-free, and relies entirely on readers like you for its survival. If you appreciate our work, please send a few bucks our way! Thanks!
Yes, and the fact that you’re asking this question as if it’s some kind of gotcha proves you don’t understand what affirmative consent is.
You’re the one who claimed rape gets punished and are using that as an argument for why we don’t need affirmative consent.
I don’t have time for a long time take down right now. But on being hard to leave abusive relationships, yes, yes they are hard to leave. In fact, the most dangerous time is when the abused person tries to leave. 3 women a day are murdered by current and former partners just in the US alone. So that’s nothing to dismiss.
Criannon is really, really telling on himself, isn’t he?
@ Catalpa
And don’t forget the fact that men are heavily socialized to ignore or misintrepret the signals women give that that they’re not into it. The default is always assumed to be “yes unless explicit no”, when it SHOULD be “no unless explicit yes”. Just look at all the rationalizations men come up with to support that default yes:
She’s had sex before, that means she automatically assents to sex with any and all men in the future!
She’s started having periods, that means she’s ready for sex! (or in the gross vernacular of pedophiles “if there’s turf on the field, it’s time to play”)
She’s dressed to make herself look attractive to me, that means she wants sex!
She’s quiet, not moving or reciprocating…oh well, she didn’t actually say “no”, so plow ahead!
I suspect that accounts for a lot of the “false accusations” where men think the woman just capriciously changed her mind after the fact because she was ashamed/drunk/whatever, when in fact she wasn’t into it and the man was blinded by his own confirmation bias.
Thanks, @cornychips. This one’s intolerable.
Yes, you do need your wife’s consent to touch her. If she doesn’t want you to touch her, you’re not allowed to.
The fact that this isn’t immediately apparent to you, well. I’d say it horrifies me, but it’s just plain, normal traditional society where men claim ownership of women.
If you ever want evidence of patriarchy, there it is. In every person protesting the idea of “affirmative consent.”
Like, anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of BDSM knows that the people who practice it do a lot of discussion ahead of time. Doms are expected to respect a sub’s boundaries. Between this but of extreme ignorance and the victim blaming, I support voting this flaming clownshoe off the island.
@ buttercup
I think another issue is that MRA types, whether through ignorance or capriciousness, conflate ‘acquittal’ with ‘false allegation’.
Of course, even as a matter of law, that is not the case.
(I know everyone here knows this; so this is for any lurkers)
Rape, like most serious crimes, has two elements; the actus reus and the mens rea.
The victim not consenting is part of the actus rea. But establishing that is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition of a conviction.
The prosecution must also prove that the defendant knew (or in some jurisdictions, was reckless as to whether or not) the victim did not consent.
And that proof has to be to the requisite standard. The onus is solely on the prosecution to convince a jury, beyond reasonable doubt, that the defendant knew, or was reckless, as to the lack of consent. The defendant doesn’t have to prove a goddamn thing. He doesn’t even have to raise the issue or give any evidence; the burden of proof is solely on the prosecution.
So it’s easy to see why convictions are so difficult. Hence the attempted shift to affirmative consent.
[We have that here now; but it’s hardly burdensome. There are just certain circumstances (victim is drugged, under threat, lacks capacity etc) where affirmative consent kicks in. But all that requires is for the defendant to raise the issue as a defence; it’s still entirely down to the prosecution to prove the defendant knew or was reckless as to lack of consent.]
But to put it simply; it could be agreed by everyone, prosecution and defence, that the victim hadn’t consented; that still wouldn’t be enough for a conviction.
Are you trying to lower our intelligence by giving us face-palm related concussions?
God, you have never had contact with kink, haven’t you? YES! GOOD DOMS GET CONSENT THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE THING! If they go too far, they get the safe word, or the sub rips off the cuff and if the act doesn’t stop instantly, THEY ARE RAPISTS. Kinky couples TALK about what they are going to do, so they know what the other is fine with and what not. Heck, every dominatrix has a price list for every service, so there is no “surprise”.
Old saying in the kink community: “Maybe you’re not a dom, maybe you’re just a scumbag.”
Seems to be made for you.
Schoolboards are overwhelmingly staffed by men. Where I live, teachers are ~60% female while headmasters are ~80% male. So, your “THE EVUUUUL GOVERNMAMENT!” narrative is based on your paranoia, not reality. But to take you seriously for a heartbeat, it happens everytime a parent says “That boy pulled your hair because eh likes you.” or “Sometimes boys just play rough” after you get punched by a “friend” or everytime a young guy goes through hazing because it “builds character”.
All shit that creates a mindset that forever links violence with affection. That normalizes a setting where it’s normal that you get hurt by those who claim to love you and that your bodily autonomy is not in your hands but at the whim of whoever is slightly stronger than you. THAT’S WHY SO MANY WOMEN DON’T LEAVE AFTER THE FIRST TIME BEING SLAPPED! BECAUSE THEY WERE MADE TO ASSUME THAT THERE IS NO WORLD WITHOUT SLAPS FOR THEM, SO WHY EVEN BOTHER?
OH! Now I get it! You haven’t actually left your spawning pool yet. Just because you happen to be so grotesque, nobody in their right mind would want to touch you, doesn’t mean they don’t have to ask if you’re fine with them touching you.
Yeah, try being a waitress for a day. Or working in a laundry. i did both. You’ll have craps from lifting tankards and god, ironing shirts for hours is both taxing and you’re constantly burning yourself.
Oh, and someone I know was a floorer. Good pay, but you know how often she got to hear some “on all fours” shit? That’s why women get jobs outside the well-paying blue collar ones. Not because they are “worse at them”.
And now I’m done because this level of toxic stupidity is giving me an aneurysm.
These trolls are so intentionally fucking obtuse. Like, nobody would try that shit in meat space. Imagine a woman describing her assualt to a group of people and cripes-hes-annoying leans forwards and says to her face, “why did you stay?” I’m pretty sure youd get punched in the face pretty fucking fast.
Once again rottencinnabon, how bout you go fuck yourself.
@peeps
Also, I haven’t received a confirmation from David about cries-a-lot ban.
My email may have been put in the spam filter (or hes likely busy). It would be swell if somebody else sent him a note. Thanks!
I haven’t, but I once saw a Finnish dad propose semi-seriously that young children’s outdoor clothing (esp. the thermal overalls commonly used here in winter) should have a sturdy carrying handle sewn in the back.
Who here believes that criannon does none of these physically demanding jobs being discussed here? [raises hand]
Women still face substantial barriers to entering the construction field and widespread harassment on job sites…
Chaudhry said that “harassment and hostility on the job” are pervasive. Almost nine in ten female construction workers experienced sexual harassment on the job, according to a U.S. Department of Labor report cited in the law center’s study, compared to around one in three for all women.
“They’ll harass and belittle you to try to make you quit. But we must stick with it, or else things won’t ever get better for women on the job,” Battle says in the law center’s report. “I have worked in cement masonry for more than 30 years, and we are still dealing with the problems we had back then.”
Source
Like, maybe educate yourself before dropping opinion turds.
Out troll goes on and on about women’s agency, but doesn’t seem to understand that affirmative consent is much more empowering than assuming a woman’s body is automatically up for grabs until she clearly says no. After which she (all too often) has to offer multiple follow-on justifications until the man is satisfied she really means it, because “no” isn’t a sufficient answer for its own sake.
It’s the same reason opt-out consumer contracts are widely considered shady, if not outright illegal.
Ok, so to the list of topics you have absolutely zero experience with (kink, consent, abusive relationships, parenting, and manual labor) we can now add single mothers. You’re out of your depth here, kid. Go home.
LindsayIrene,
*raises hand*
In my experience, the men who think that child care isn’t hard or think that employed women don’t work hard are from privileged backgrounds. Upper class women are sometimes stay at home moms who have help and don’t need to work all that hard. Working class women work hard and the men and boys around them know it. That’s not to say that working class men aren’t ever misogynists. It’s just this particular brand of misogyny that’s usually held by men who grew up around affluence. Criannon’s libertarian views only support this theory.
You can always tell when an MRA type doesn’t have any experience with the working classes when their idea of oppressed working class men are coal miners. It’s always the only working class job they can think of. Or maybe it’s just that it’s the whitest. No concern for men working in say, fast food, who are often black or Latino.
He also mentioned ditch diggers, as if that job is still being done by hand. It really is easy to spot the middle-class blowhard.
As a member of the working class, I can tell you that you’re very likely to find women in working class labor positions. There are large amounts of women in the warehouse I work in, and I’d even say there are more women than men there. Most of them physical laborers. But I guess since they aren’t coal miners or ditch diggers or 18th century railroad workers, it doesn’t count.
criannon is BANNED, for obvious reasons.
Thanks, cornychips, for letting me know, and sorry about the delay.
Thanks David!!
Oh, I also went back and removed the more egregious victim-blaming stuff from his comments. If I missed any let me know.
Boys will be boys.
Boys will be boys, will be boys, will be boys.
will be boys will be boys will be boys will be boys
@cornychips:
When I was asked that question, I cried in shame. People just don’t get it. They’re the same people who tell depressed folks to cheer up and think positive. Gee, why didn’t I think of that? They think they know what they’d have done in any situation. They’d have screamed, or had a gun, or kicked the bad guy in the nuts and run away. People who Monday-morning-quarterback other people’s trauma are just horrible.
@asabove
You are right! They only answer they want to hear from a survivor is “i guess it was my fault.”
@Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Apparently the comerical was too subtle and I had to spell it out. I was prepared to whoop out the sockpuppets and the blackboard, just in case.
I know he got banned but I have a few things I would like to say if that’s alright with everyone.
1. I did leave him because I couldn’t take his controlling behavior and abuse any longer. But that doesn’t mean I was free of him. I went to school with him (a very small school) and was under his thumb because of the abuse. Just because I wasn’t his girlfriend any more doesn’t mean he didn’t still have power over me. I had no confidence, no friends, and undiagnosed PTSD. His sexual abuse started small with pushing my boundaries, but as a teenager vaginal sex was important to me and it was the one thing I wasn’t going to “give up” unless it was someone I loved and when I was ready. I mentioned before I wasn’t ready and he wouldn’t stop pushing so I ended the relationship.
(trigger warning more about my rape)
Then when it became clear to him he couldn’t manipulate me to go back to him, he took what he wanted for himself. He did this one day when I was alone at the school track running laps. It happened it the public restrooms there when I had went in to go to the bathroom before I left. He was far stronger then I was so it didn’t take much to hold me down. After the year of being with him as a couple the emotional abuse he put me through had me feeling like my virginity was the only value I had a person anymore. With that gone I was deeply ashamed and felt so lost.
2. Because the ass hat didn’t get it and would be surprised if he knew. (this might be tmi, Warning because talking about BDSM relationship) I am part of the BDSM community and so is my fiancé. he gets affirmative consent through dirty talk and we have a lot of fun. He is a dominate, I’m more of a submissive and yet he still manages to get affirmative consent.
He doesn’t go near any of my triggers like chocking, hair pulling, face slapping, any of that. After being together for 2 years we know what each other likes and what we don’t. part of the fun is telling me what he’s going to do and in turn I can say no to that. Again you have to be very uncreative to not be able to do this even in a more gentle, tender sexual relationship. saying things like “you want me to f*ck your tight little pussy with my big dick?”. Which normally gets to replies “yes please sir, slowly so I can feel ever inch” or “yes f*cking stretch me out on and take me like I’m a naughty girl” (we have a bit of a size kink. He’s much bigger then me and I’m much smaller then him). replies like that mean I’m either not aroused just yet for our normal pace so go slow or you’ll hurt me, and the other says I am and I want to be taken right there. Both tell exactly what I want in a sexy manner
3. Yes he will continue to have to ask for things like this even after we’re married. Just because we’re married doesn’t mean he owns my body like I don’t own his. And yes I do ask him for and okay before I touch him. being asked can I have a hug or can I have a kiss is a quite common thing in our relationship.
4. Thank you everyone who stood up for me and for @cornychips who emailed David. Trolls are the reason I haven’t posted in the like 4 years that I’ve been reading this blog. But it’s full of really amazing people that I wanted to be apart of. Hopefully I didn’t trigger or make anyone uncomfortable with this and if I did I’m really sorry. Since a lot of the trolls stuff was directed at me I felt the need to reply.
@Lainy
Thank you for sharing. I’m glad you found someone who gives you the respect you deserve.