By David Futrelle
I ran across this Tweet this morning from an intrepid Jordan Peterson debunker on Twitter and, well, it’s pretty much spot on:
https://twitter.com/zei_nabq/status/1083015376022224896
For evidence of this, we need look no further than some of the off-the-cuff comments about birth control and the allegedly scary consequences of women controlling their own sexuality that Peterson recently made to a small audience that included, among others, Charlie Kirk, “Bumble Jack” Posobiec, and weirdo MAGA couple Donald Trump Jr. and Kimberly Guilfoyle at Turning Point USA’s annual Student Action Summit.
As Sam Seder points out in this clip from his Majority Report show, Peterson seems to be pushing the idea that what he sees as feminists’ preoccupation with sexual consent is basically a left-wing “sexual taboo” roughly equivalent to the right-wing “taboo” against gay sex. (Peterson being Peterson, he doesn’t quite come out and say this outright.)
Sam has been taking on Peterson’s nonsense for some time. Here’s another video in which Sam discusses a Peterson appearance on the Joe Rogan show in which Rogan, an oddball in his own right but still pretty sharp, gobsmacks the Canadian beef-eater by pointing out a very basic issue with his promotion of “enforced monogamy.”
While Peterson’s utterances do seem to be getting weirder by the day, he’s been saying awful crap about the often fraught relationship between women and men for years. And for a time, during a sort of pickup artist phase, he did so dressed like a 1930s gangster.
Sam’s got a video on that, too.
And this guy is seen as a leading light in the “intellectual dark web.” It’s really a testament to how fucked up this political moment is that a cornball weirdo like Peterson is taken seriously by anyone at all, much less the adoring throngs that attend his talks and watch his videos and buy his books.
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@Lainy – I am so sorry and angry that he did that to you. Thank you for telling your history.
I can’t imagine why people who view sex on a par with getting the furnace cleaned annually are having trouble finding willing partners.
Sorry, not buying the false dichotomy. The burden’s on you.
If only there were other traditionally female occupations that involved working with the hands. Weaving. Planting. Harvesting. Factory work. Food prep. Nursing and child rearing.
Somehow these always get overlooked when men valorize “working with the hands”.
Okay. Let’s say you leave your car parked out on the street, and you come back to find some 6’4″ guy breaking into it. He’s much bigger and stronger than you, he’s drunk, he’s pissed off, and he’s desperate for cash. Do you think going over to him and firmly saying “no” would stop him? Do you think that would even be a good idea?
How will you feel when the police then grill you about why you left your car parked out on the street, and had you ever allowed other people into your vehicle before, and had you been drinking, and why didn’t you tell him no more forcefully?
How about if it turns out the 6’4″ guy is a scholarship athlete, and the community closes ranks around him while dragging your name through the mud? I mean, your car’s already wrecked, and you’re just some no-name troublemaker who was asking for it. Don’t ruin his future! He could be on the Supreme Court someday!
Maybe we just shouldn’t have laws at all, and empower everybody to stop acting like victims and forcefully tell criminals no? That would surely eliminate crime!
“Women are represented in lower numbers in higher-paid blue collar jobs.” I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, but okay.
An electrician makes about $25 an hour. That’s good pay. Blue collar women are more likely to be, say, maids. They do not make $25 an hour.
When women try to move into these types of jobs, men retaliate, as in the events that led to Jenson vs. Eveleth Mines.
@Lainy
I’m so, so sorry that you had to endure that. I’m sorry that you were ever made to feel that you had anything to be ashamed of for the horrific actions that a bastard chose to inflict on you.
I hope that you are in a much better situation now, and somewhere where you can heal.
Thank you everyone for your kind words.
@Catalpa Thank you. I was 16 when all of this happened. but the violence didn’t start till after 2 years of emotional abuse. I am 20 years old now. I’m enrolled in school and I’m recently engaged to a very wonderful man. I’m doing much better and thank the internet for having feminist sites like this. I also owe a huge part of it to a lot of the women and men from this blog.
I’ve been reading the comments for years now. Hearing everyone’s stories over the years helped me to feel not alone. This helped me get over shame that I was feeling. Other sites that specifically help victims of abuse and rape helped as well. I know probably everyone here is older then I am so I just want you guys to know (and David) That you helped a sixteen year old girl get through the worst time of my life.
@Lainy, awwwwwh
Thank you, so much. I’m so sorry for everything that happened to you. You’re stronger now, and you’re kickin’ butt.
@Lainy
I’m glad to hear it.
Now then, let’s read this reply here. Written at work, so it’s not as edited as I’d like.
Mm-hmm.
I’ll be doing the important stuff first, then the trivial nonsense after.
No you fucking don’t.
You wanna bring traditional motherhood into this? Fine. There are two ways to interpret this reply.
First one is that you’re entirely fucking blind to the work mothers do. You think taking care of a child is nothing more than having sex and giving birth? When appraised as a profession, the average stay-at-home mom does work valued at $115,000 a year. (And yet they don’t actually get that, they just get dudes saying all that is “working with your vagina” apparently.) By your own blinkered hard-right libertarian everything-is-a-commodity reasoning, traditional mothers work hard.
I can imagine you replying to the above with “But I never said it wasn’t hard, I respect women’s work greatly, don’t you?”
Well, can it, shortstop. If you’re the woman-respecter you wouldn’t call that “working with your vagina.” Reducing people to their sexual organs is sorta the opposite of respect.
The other interpretation is that you think mothers are all sex workers. I don’t think that needs further exploration.
I invite you to conjure up a third description of what you mean, if you like. Very much looking to see the contortions you pull on that one.
Citations Fucking Needed
Maybe that sort of shit assertion flies in the drains you circle, but you’re talking to an actual fucking scientist here, a scientist who’s familiar with the literature you’re claiming to speak for. So cite it. “I read it on a blog somewhere” ain’t gonna cut it – I can find evidence to support flat earth theory out on the blags if I want it. Don’t bother sending YouTube links, either – YouTube is not a place to go for finding evidence, it’s a place to reinforce whatever your current beliefs are. If you can’t do that, then your information is bullshit and you shouldn’t trust it, no matter how much you might think it’s right.
I can imagine you replying with “Jordan Peterson is a better respected scientist than you!”
Well, can it, shortstop. He ain’t respected, he’s popular. The dude’s a PhD in Psychology and he cites fucking Jung in his talks – Jung has been discredited for almost a century now. First year Undergrads know better than to cite Jung. The only people who cite Jung seriously are people trying to sell you on something. And that’s just a single illustrative point at which he’s ridiculous, there are plenty more.
As for the rest of your replies to me, they only justify a sentence or so each. Specifically:
– You misunderstand the difference between inferential reasoning (one of the formal modes of reasoning) and a strawman argument (a fallacy).
– It’s not possible to make a broad statement about society without casting a wide net, and your asserting it doesn’t make it so. Reference: the field of sociology, the theory of social complexity. Do your homework.
– Another raw assertion. Do your homework.
– I like being thorough. Sometimes I like a bit of bombast. Sue me.
– It’s true that there are not many women working in “traditionally male” professions. It’s an unbased assertion, however, that it’s because women are naturally bad at it.
– “Erudition” is the word of the week, guess you didn’t catch that. Has to do with all the JBP trolls who’ve been outraged by the thought that we might not think so highly of him and are very erudite in his defense. Tragically, the depth of their reasoning isn’t nearly that of their vocabulary.
In short:
You’re wrong and you have no idea how to defend your position beyond assertion and repetition. Go hit the lit.
@Alan Robertshaw
So women are weak victims. What a weird way of empowerment.
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
I brought up that they are doing it without ridiculous affirmative consent regulations and vast majority is not rape.
Like @Alan Robertshaw above you. Or maybe you in this very post when you insist that we live in a rape culture and it is more trouble to say no than it is worth and men are pushy?
Exactly because of that. Boys and men have to change so the poor weak women are safe.
Yup, Camille Paglia makes a lot of sense.
Do you like the way you think?
@Catalpa
They are both to some degree. Just like men are.
@kupo
Great! Yes please, do shame men who have sex outside of commited monogamous relationship. And shame women for that behaviour too.
You just saying it’s wrong does not make it so, no matter how much you whish it to be.
@Lainy
I’m sorry for what happened to you. [victim-blaming crap removed by DF]
@TheKND
It is fun, unless you’re one of those many people who like to be dominated sexually. Affirmative consent regulation prictically outlaw some sexual practices.
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Alright then, next time maybe don’t make a false dichotomy if you’re not willing to ‘buy’ it.
Try the occupation I mentioned and try those that you mentioned. Your expirience will teach you there is a big difference.
I wonder why you have to go to this extreme situation to explain what? How empowered women are? Are you even capable of not seeing the women as poor victims?
@LindsayIrene
Maybe becouse it is not the same work requiring the same qualifications, but yeah non-existent pay gap.
@Scildfreja Unny?nes
You have asked me what I consider the greatest contribution to society by women. I answered. But go on being outraged by the things people did not say.
Citation fucking needed. You’re just making raw assertion. But go on being outraged by the things people did not say.
Really? Perhaps yes, if by thorough you actually mean self-absorbed and ideologically blinded.
You claim to like science? Well, it’s fight, flight or freeze, not merely fight. I’m all for fighting off rapists if it’s possible. It isn’t always. There is more than one valid self protection strategy. Anyone who knows basic biology knows that. Why won’t you trust scientists?
You still haven’t explained how consent education removes female agency. What it does is teach people to be responsible for their own actions. If a man chooses to do something to a woman without getting consent, it is not the fault of the woman for being drunk, or looking sexy or consenting to one type of sexuality but not another. It is you who are trying to remove men’s agency by making women responsible for their behavior. This is a good example of why viewing women as sexual gatekeepers leads to rape culture.
Also, affirmative consent in no way outlaws BDSM. Submissives still consent. Dominants still have to get consent.
@crinnanon
Really? Maybe you shouldn’t bring up things, you don’t understand (for the sake of novelty)
Kink is entirely based on trust and affirmative content. That’s what easy cuffs aftercare and safe words are for. You’re not defending doms, you’re defending assholes, infecting the community.
And to somewhat answer for Lainey: because fucks like you and the lobster God created a society where being abused feels like the standard for many women! My last girlfriend went through an abusive relationship before she was with me and she was shocked that I kept treating her well all the way through.
This is why we call it rape culture. Because women get indoctrinated into expecting and accepting that kind of treatment.
@criannon
And what is that big difference, exactly? As it happens, I have done both. I’ve done bricklaying, landscaping, and carpentry (worked on a construction site for a summer). I’ve also had jobs picking crops, housecleaning, and providing childcare. They’re all physically demanding. They all produce tangible results. They’re all necessary for a functioning society. What else separates them?
That’s hardly an “extreme situation”. Unless you’re someone who has a VERY personal interest in shielding men who rape from accountability Someone who doesn’t want to think too much about why rape victims are treated so differently from victims of other crimes. I’ll leave it to you to explain why you’re so deeply invested in that narrative.
@ criannon
Nothing annoys me more than the “why didn’t she just leave?” narrative.
It’s not even the implicit misogyny; it’s the ignorance. I’m not annoyed as an ‘SJW’; I’m annoyed as a pedant.
I could write hundreds of pages on why you’re just so wrong in your assumptions. But other cleverer people have already done that. There’s a gazillion sources and authorities on why your position isn’t just dismissive; it’s woefully naive.
So to start you off simply, I’ll just recommend as primers, the work of Lundy Bancroft and Gavin DeBecker.
Women often cannot stand up for themselves without risking further harm. Would you rather be raped or raped and beaten bloody? Sometimes women opt for the former. Sometimes we freeze up and physically can’t fight back because we can’t process what’s happening.
@kupo
Victim blaming of an actual commenter who was brave to share her story. I vote for a ban.
shakes fist at blockquote mammoth
@cornychips
Yeah, I got no patience for that.
Ohhhh, so what you mean is that everyone should be subject to the exact same rules!
And the “good” rules, the rules that should be enforced, are the ones against promiscuous sex.
While the “bad” rules, the ones that aren’t needed at all, are the ones against rape.
I understand perfectly now!
Fuck you, you victim-blaming piece of shit. Take a flying leap into a pit of legos.
Cool, Ive contacted David
bye criannon!! I’m sure you’ll be back as another sock puppet, but in the meantime, how bout you go fuck yourself!
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
[victim-blaming crap removed by DF]
Affirmatively? Through the whole act? And the doms make sure that they get consent before each action? Yeah, no. That is not how it works.
@TheKND
Trust maybe, if you’re smart. Affirmative consent, definitely no. Unless you can give affirmative consent to something when no one asks you for it and you don’t know what you’re consenting to.
You’re not talking about single-mother households perchance? that would actually make some sense. But do go on, tell where this indoctrination happens? Parents? Schools that are run overwhelmingly by women? Where? Where is the evidence?
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
See? Of course you know the answer. ‘They are all physically demanding’ you say. You’re probably going to deny it, but they are not equally physically demanding. And that is why women chose to not to go into these jobs and that is also why they are naturally worse at them than men. It is not because men retaliate. Some rare exception exist I’m sure (of women going, and man retaliating). And also women are interested in different things/occupations/hobbies than men.
@cornychips
So asking questions is victim blaming now?
What the fuck makes you think that BDSM consists of acts that no one asks you for consent for and doesn’t even let you know what’s happening?
You don’t just spring “surprise” sex acts on people and call it BDSM. That’s called rape.
No wonder you’re so firmly against affirmative consent laws. I bet they’d cause you a lot of trouble, wouldn’t they?
@criannon
Why are you a piece of fucking shit?
Im just asking questions….
@Alan Robertshaw
[victim-blaming crap removed by DF]
@kupo
Is this any different for men you think? I don’t know the answer to your question. Honestly, in an extreme situation I’d probably freeze as well. Does not mean my wife or any other woman (or man) now has to ask me for consent whenever she feels like touching me.
Why? What is the relevance? You and I both know that a lot rape cases are hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
@Catalpa
Yes, of course.
Yes. Although I’m not sure what you mean by enforced. Socially, yes. By law, I don’t know, probably not so much, I’m not a big fan of state.
No. Rules against rape are good rules. Why are trying to maliciously misinterpret what I’m saying?
Unless they contain any reference to affirmative consent, according to you. The only “real” rape is when someone is dragged into the bushes by a stranger, at knifepoint, right? For all other examples, the victim should have just said no, should have just left, shouldn’t have put herself in that situation to begin with, by your reckoning. Yeah, sounds like you’re really opposed to rape.
That tells me you’ve never done childcare, or housecleaning, or you’d know how exhausting they are, and how much stamina and, yes, upper body strength they require (ever tried carrying a live, squirming 50 lb. kid up to bed? it’s a lot different from lugging a 50 lb. sack of something inert). I’m actually more spent at the end of a day with my kids than I ever was working outdoors.
But no, you’ve decided that only the jobs men traditionally do are tiring and demanding, and that women gravitate towards the “easy” stuff. You don’t even have the experience to back up your assertions.
Guess what neuroscientists say is the most stressful job? Waiting tables. Same for any service industry jobs, like nursing and retail, with demanding schedules, a high physical work load, and low autonomy. Guess who disproportionately fills these jobs? Women.
Spare us the song and dance about men doing all the hard work in this world while women loaf. That’s complete bunk, and you know it.