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Weirdo black conspiracy theorist hates Bird Box because “no good-looking brother would want a pregnant, pale, pig-nose beast like Sandra Bullock.” And that’s just the beginning.

Sandra Bullock and Trevante Rhodes in Bird Box

By David Futrelle

It isn’t just the white supremacists who are mad about Bird Box. No, it turns out that at least one black supremacist has some big problems with the Netflix post-apocalyptic horror hit as well. And his issues with the film are even weirder than theirs.

Some white supremacists are taking aim at Bird Box, as I noted in a recent post, because they think the film — whose most heroic figures are a white women and a black man — is some sort of SJW propaganda designed to denigrate the straight white male.

But the black conspiracy theorist behind the virulently anti-white and anti-Semitic Race Rules blog is angry at the film because he doesn’t think the handsome black hero of the film would really be into “preggo over-the-hill skank Sandra Bullock” who “looks like a damn tr***y.”

Mr. Race Rules starts off by noting that he doesn’t like “race-mixing” in movies because there really is no such thing in the real world.  Strap yourself in here, folks, because this is where things start to get really weird. “[T]he so-called races are actually different species,” he writes.

Blacks are the only humans and everyone else are all animal humanoid hybrids or what I call manimals.

And even though Sandra Bullock’s self-sacrificing boyfriend in the film, played by Trevante Rhodes, presumably doesn’t believe that white people are literal “manimals,” Mr. Race Rules still doesn’t believe that “someone as good looking as that brother” would want anything to do with

a pregnant, pale, curveless, pig-nose beast like Sandra Bullock in real life … Black men that are attractive rarely go after skanks unless  they have been hurt by black women, they are drunk or high or just goddamn brainwashed to fuck manimal bitches for some reason like porn.

Love that he manages to blame black women for what he sees as Rhodes’ poor romantic choice. Weird how dudes who rail against the alleged evils of white women — regardless of their own race or political views — almost always seem to hate black women at least as much, if not more.

Mr. Race Rules is also annoyed that Rhodes’ character turns out to be what today’s white supremacists would call a cuck — raising kids fathered by men of a different race. Sorry, species.

To make matters worse the dumb ass nigga was going to be raising two white kids with a white woman as a black man. What the fuck is that? Reverse reparations?!?!? I’ll never take care of some white bastard kid. She didn’t even want them herself just like most white females who always pretend to love their kids. Ain’t buyin’ it. White females are full of shit…..literally and figuratively.

Despite the much-discussed diversity of the Bird Box cast of main characters, there are no black women in roles more prominent than “Woman in Entryway.” Mr. Race Rules thinks he knows why.

“Did anyone notice this one last very important thing?!?!?” he asks.

NO BLACK WOMEN!!!!!!! That was no fucking accident. The elite worship the black woman. It is their doorway to the future through the black womb since pinkazoids are all dying out….much of it from their own compulsive self-extermination.

Wat.

They never want to disrespect the black womb-man too much on the big screen because they know where we all come from. There’s no problem slaughtering and incarcerating record numbers of black and Latino males but they have to protect the black womb to ensure their genetic future for now. Most black females still don’t get it. Once the manimals get what they need from you….YOU’RE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!

Just FYI, black “females!”

But Mr. Race Rules’ theories about white manimals and black womb-men aren’t even the weirdest part of his, er, review of Bird Box. No, that honor has to go to his discussion of “falcon Heru the Hero.” Who, you ask? Let’s let him, er, explain:

The movie had a few interpretations as far as I could see with my 3rd eye partially open. One is the blind fold was blinding the pineal gland showing how everyone is really unconscious these days from all the poison and brainwashing. Second the bird box (B+B=2+2=22+Master Builder) showed how the falcon Heru the Hero is actually being held in a box or this Matrix and keeping his 3rd eye (really 1st eye) from awakening by the parasitic elite and their minions using light-bending technology to prevent the light code frequencies from returning through our ancestors.

Okey dokey then.

For a little context: Heru is another name for the falcon-headed Egyptian god Horus, and is apparently a major part of the esoteric conspiracy theories that Mr. Race Rules and a number of other similar theorists espouse. But I haven’t looked into the details of this yet, because my poor brain has already been taxed enough for one day, and I suspect that now yours has been as well.

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Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

OK firstly thank you Scild. You made me feel a lot better just by acknowledge this is causing me honest anguish as you phrased it. The reason I use the phrase I will die on this hill should make two things obvious at least I think so.

It completely shows that since I’m talking about this hill specifically, that means I’ve accepted the the fact that I was wrong about literally everything else I said so how can people say I am refusing to listen or accept anything but agreement. I was beyond ignorant about the actual way that pregnancy happens and can harm women and the fact that it’s truly dangerous and I admitted over and over that I was completely wrong about almost every single thing I said except this.

I really don’t see how that says I won’t accept anything but agreement to me it says because I know what my motivations are in my head, that I’m incredibly confused. These are the specific things I am still confused about. I accept if she just says pro-life without explaining anything she’s going to be put into the group that is the vocal majority and common colloquial meaning. Yes I really understand that because I’m not a f****** moron.

I am confused about is how is my mom as a number of people have said equally as reprehensible as people who are anti-abortion and not truly pro-life simply because she is stubborn as f*** as you see it runs in the family and likes the phrase is like I used it first I know what I mean by it and I’m going to keep f****** using it. So what I’m hearing is because she feels that way even though she thinks abortion should be completely legal in every way.

By Last Resort I don’t mean something ridiculous I mean use
condoms, try to use the morning after pill and if something goes wrong yes then it’s a viable option. That’s what she means by Last Resort. I thought that is how everyone felt.

I don’t think anyone is like Yay let’s have an abortion because that would be insane. So essentially my mom holds almost the exact same beliefs as the majority of people here 90% I would say. She believes the government has no place in regulating any woman’s body abortion should be legal and easily available and so should every form of birth control. A fetus is not a person it is only a potential life so the woman who is already a sentient living human obviously has priority etc etc. But people seem to think she’s just as bad as people literally want to make abortion illegal so women will be shoving metal coat hangers up their twats again!

That is what he’s confusing me and making me insane( I’m using this word precisely, I truly mean insane in the sense that it is affecting me psychologically and making me very volatile) I resent my mom right now so much for deceiving me. But I think comparing her to f****** forced birthers is absurd. She! Has! Helped! Many! Young! Catholic! Girls! Get! Abortions!!! At least a dozen, probably more.

The only thing I thought was being disagreed on was that she shouldn’t use the phrase simply because the well is just to poisoned at this point. Thank you for that phrase, whoever said it I can’t recall.

I’m absolutely losing my s*** over here because people are saying my mom is just as bad as people who literally picket and bomb abortion clinics. Why is she equal to them because she wants to use a phrase?!

Sure I will totally accept it is poor judgment on her part aside from that what is she actually doing that is wrong? Is what I am completely confused everything I’ve acceded to and said I was ignorant and incorrect. I don’t understand how anyone can claim all I want is to be right be-all-end-all obviously untrue objectively! I have said I was wrong very very wrong! Do I need to wear a hair shirt and like flagellate myself? What exactly am I saying is giving people the impression then I’m sitting here being self-righteous? I’m sitting here upset and confused as f*** because to me it just seems beyond obvious that her actions are good. And actions are what matter, words are wind!(I’m sure everyone will catch the reference) Honestly to my knowledge she does a lot more then 90% of people in general definitely more than 90% of the people I know personally giving her time and money to help charities for orphans and single mothers with children under the poverty line and similar charities and a bunch of other things.

She doesn’t just write checks, she actually spends multiple hours every week helping people, plus she writes checks lol. So why is she in a number of people’s eyes or at least that’s what I’m getting from the comments just as bad as people who call the women whores and s**** and spit on them as they are walking in and out of abortion clinics. What is she actually doing that is wrong that people are opposed to? I don’t understand!

Is it literally just being stubborn about a phrase because it’s nostalgic for her? That is what makes her as bad as forced birthers? Please I need to understand this cuz I’m sitting here crying I’m so frustrated! I’m not trying to make people feel guilty this is just true, that is what is happening right now.

I don’t understand what is going on and what people are objecting to so harshly. Maybe it makes me stupid and naive I know I’m naive for a fact lol but I really don’t care. I’m not trying to fight or argue or speak in bad faith. I just don’t understand and I desperately want to.

Shadowplay
1 year ago

@Katiekitten

Were going to stay out of this – I’m the student here, but …

Look. I’m Catholic. I’m about the same age as your mom. I remember pro-life meaning what she says to you it means (and it were a specifically Catholic thing). That meaning lasted a bit longer this side of the pond – we don’t have as many Evangelicals stirring shit.

The world has changed in half a century. Rather a lot. Phrases get repurposed or jacked. Pro-life is one of those phrases. Your mother has seen a lot of those changes and she’s accepted them (there are plenty of things that were “OK” to say in her childhood that she’d not dream of saying now, right?)

She hasn’t accepted this specific hijacking of the original meaning. It’s too much a part of her identity. She won’t accept it. That is fine. It is her choice.

However, you need to accept that the meaning has changed. Not for her benefit, for yours. There isn’t any space – online or off – that accepts that meaning of pro-life any more. And, while reclaiming words is certainly a thing, that ship sailed long ago.
It is hard to accept sometimes. But look at who here has been telling you this. Do they lie?

Hope that helps you some. Sorry to all for interrupting.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Yes I totally understand that and I specifically stated it. I was like okay if you’re just saying the well has been too poisoned, I can accept that but that’s not all people are saying. People aren’t just like oh well this is a poor judgment call she’s being ridiculous and should just accept that no one’s gonna understand what the hell she’s talking about if she wants to refer to herself is pro-life in that manner. No.

There are people who are claiming she’s either almost as bad or just as bad as the forced birthers simply because of a phrase she’s too stubborn to discard. Or at least like I said that’s how I’m seeing it. I don’t understand the harshness. I mean, what is she doing that is so bad and equivalent to the anti-abortion fanatics?

I’ve gone with a few girls for moral support and once we got spat on and literally harassed and debated calling the cops, but in the end we decided it just wouldn’t help. I mean we were both black. It’s depressing but it’s theoretically possible it could have made things much worse.

The last thing I am confused about is why people are acting like my mother is ideologically the same as them or only a hair different. That is objectively factually untrue and I am completely confused because I know the people saying these things are intelligent people so I’m confused and frustrated cuz I feel like I must be missing something but for the life of me I can’t see what it is it’s simply the phrase itself she shares literally nothing of consequence with the forced birthers.

Okay maybe I haven’t been completely clear so this is what my mom thinks. Ideally no one would ever have to have an abortion I think most people can agree with that. No one wants to have random medical procedures of any kind no matter what they are. In a utopian world people would be able to choose with birth control that was very precise and reliable when exactly they wanted to have children every time. That would be her ideal. Perfect birth control so people will never have babies they can’t afford or aren’t responsible enough to take care of etc, etc.

If anyone’s has read the Vorkosigan books think of Beta Colony. My mom has never read them she would never read any sci-fi Space Opera it’s just so not her bag LOL. But on that planet it’s complicated so I’m not going to get into it and it also has its own problems but unwanted children are just not a problem there. If you’re interested Google it because this is already a ridiculous essay of a comment. I’m not trying to be flippant it’s just that truly will be simpler to Google if I knew how to do links I would do that.

She doesn’t want to take an iota of autonomy away from anybody she thinks it’s wrong for anyone to dictate morality. She is very devout absolutely, but she’s one of the Catholics that very strongly believes in judge not saith the Lord. Her best friend Gary is also Catholic and gay as the day is long. She spends a ridiculous amount of time with groups for trying to make reforms in the Catholic church and petitioning the Vatican and all sorts of things like that.

I just don’t understand how you can compare her to the sort of people who go to Westboro Baptist Church. It feels like a knee-jerk reaction just to the phrase pro-life. What actions is she taking that are bad in any way what does she do that is causing harm to anyone? Cuz from what I’m reading I’m understanding that people seem to think she is just as bad because of a tiny little two-word phrase that she views differently then the word has come to mean colloquially.

Shadowplay apparently at least remembers there was a time when people did use that phrase in the way I’m speaking of. Yes it has been hijacked and the ship has sailed almost definitely on reclaiming it. It’s just become too ubiquitous. I’m agreeing with all of that.

But no one has made me understand why my mother adhering to an archaic usage of a phrase that yes, people will not know what she’s talking about at all if she just says I’m pro-life, yes they will think she is one of the forced birthers if she didn’t explain herself but like I have said a number of times it’s not something she discusses with random strangers or bare acquaintances. Yes she would discuss it with family and close serious friends but in that context she would be able to explain herself.

So what is it that she’s doing that is so awful? This is the last thing I’m confused about, that’s why I said I will die on this hill because I don’t see how she is doing anything awful or morally wrong.

I think she is being stubborn and exercising poor judgment but she’s almost fucking seventy! That’s her prerogative as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. How does that make her as bad as the anti-abortion fanatics or even mildly equivalent?

That is what’s making me so upset and maybe making it sound like I’m trying to pick a fight I’m confused to the point of frustration and upset because it literally makes no sense to me.
Anyway at 8:26 a.m. let me get some sleep I’m really truly not trying to be hospitable I swear to God I’m just very emotional about that and I don’t get it I don’t see what people are saying is so bad. You keep saying I’m not listening no I am because I’ve exceeded to almost everything and said y’all were right I was wrong about almost everything I initially said a long time ago in the first thread but this I just don’t get. And what makes it even worse is I feel like I’m being called a liar. I don’t understand why I’m being accused of arguing in bad faith because I’m totally confused. People really seem to believe I’m sitting here doing this to piss people off or for my own amusement or something I just don’t comprehend! No I’m doing this because I want to know what I’m missing.

I know y’all are intelligent, I’m not trying to be arrogant but they told me I’m intelligent too at Stuyvesant the giant nerd School of NYC LOL. So I feel we must just be talkin past each other in some way and eventually I’ll get there. But apparently that offends people for some reason and I honestly don’t see why my honest pursuit of not being confused bothers people.

Anyway let me go to bed. I was out drinking and smoking weed and chilling with friends and I should definitely get some actual rest. I hope everyone’s having a lovely weekend I mean that sincerely and honestly if people can’t tell the difference between me and a troll I don’t know what to tell you. Good night

PS: to what Scildfreya said, I also want to be very clear I don’t just want people to agree with me I want to truly understand what I’m missing. I just want to understand where everyone’s coming from. I was completely wrong about most of the stuff I said initially and had no problems admitting it so why do people think here I just want people to agree with me I don’t get it.

It’s just upsetting because people are saying I’m not listening. I’m listening and hearing I’ve changed my mind about a number of things, almost all of the things I initially stated, and I’ve even managed to get somewhere with my mother which makes me feel happy.

What am I doing that makes people feel I’m not listening when I’ve specifically said hey y’all were right about almost everything. It feels like unless me or anyone else in the past or future just agrees that anything having to do with the phrase pro-life is just evil by association and that seems a bit much to me. Sure the people who have adopted it, the giant majority that is a horrific evil concept the way they use it and what they believe the concept entails. But Imo the phrase in of itself does not have to be by definition or at least that’s how I see it.

Okay I’m really rambling even worse than usual because I’m drunk and not just stoned it is the weekend LOL. So I’m done have a lovely day everybody good night sorry this one was stupid long.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@katie –

I’m absolutely losing my s*** over here because people are saying my mom is just as bad as people who literally picket and bomb abortion clinics. Why is she equal to them because she wants to use a phrase?!

I’m going to need you to quote where someone has said this. Like, copy and paste. If you can’t get the blockquote thing to work (someone explained it quite well in this thread, Scild and someone else) at least paste it with some quotation marks around it.

Because no one has said “your mom is as bad as someone who bombs abortion clinics”. What we have said is that, by using the same word, your mom *will be understood to support* the pro life movement. (Which happens to have bombed abortion clinics.)

Look at how much explanation you are having to do to seperate her beliefs/actions from a pro-lifer. Where does the difficulty actually come from? It could very easily be solved. If she’s pro-choice, call herself that instead.

You say

I accept if she just says pro-life without explaining anything she’s going to be put into the group that is the vocal majority and common colloquial meaning.

So yeah, i really will need those specific quotations. (Also it isn’t the common meaning, it is the meaning, there now are nonothers others.)

By Last Resort I don’t mean something ridiculous I mean use
condoms, try to use the morning after pill and if something goes wrong yes then it’s a viable option.

Sometimes people you are having sex with won’t use condoms. Sometimes they break. Sometimes they are removed. With normal use, i think they are 85% effective.

The morning after pill doesn’t work as well on larger people.

(I am sorry for the language in this link, CN for people being insensitive about weight in how it’s discussed) Here is a link about that.

As with any real medicine, there are side effects. (I’m looking at *you*, homeopathy!) You could take the pill, and be fine. Or you could take it and feel:

Potential side effects of levonorgestrel include:
nausea
abdominal pain
fatigue
headache
menstrual changes
dizziness
breast tenderness
vomiting

It will also potentially mess with your period’s heaviness, and when it happens.

This isn’t to say ‘don’t take it’, it’s to say there are considerations that go into it. You could also be allergic to the ingredients.

It also doesn’t work if you are pregnant already, it either stops the release of the egg or prevents it from implanting. Take as many morning after pills as you like, if you are pregnant you will still be pregnant. At that point, you need the abortion pill.

By definition, ‘Last Resort’ (which you even capitalised to make it more ‘last resort-y’?) Is understood to be the last possible resort.

That leads to everything we are saying. That is what thinking of it as a ‘Last Resort’ instead of an option does.

Please come with me on a thought journey. We are working at a clinic. A young woman comes in, and asks for an abortion. We are in the US. She has travelled hours to get here, because there are so few clinics. First , we tell her there is a mandatory waiting period. She comes back, a day later, having slept in her car because she can’t afford a hotel. Now we do a sonogram, and make her look. We also read a prepared statement, talking about how abortions can cause cancer. Now we ask her “did you use a condom?” She nods, it broke. “Did you try the morning after pill?” She shakes her head, she couldn’t get to a pharmacy. “Whelp!” We say, having already made her jump through multiple hoops. “Can’t help you! This is supposed to be your Last Resort.”

She leaves, has the baby, and lives below the poverty line for the rest of her life.

I don’t think anyone is like Yay let’s have an abortion because that would be insane.

(Please don’t use ‘insane’, mind the comments policy.)

BIG CONTENT WARNING: THE FOLLOWING LINK IS A PRO-LIFE SITE.

I am wondering if you have seen how pro-life talk about abortion, specifically using it as birth control? Here is a site where they do that. (CONTENT WARNING: THIS IS A PRO LIFE SITE)

Here is a post debunking many of the myths that pro-life spreads.

As to if anyone is happy to have an abortion – i don’t know. Is it a recreational activity? Do they go ‘drinks-karaoke-abortion clinic’? No, i really don’t think so. But my cumulative impression from pro-life propaganda is that they try to claim that this is how people use it. Fun and fancy free. Poppin’ the abortion pill like candy, no consequence sex! Woop woop woop!!!!

You thank Scildfreja for acknowleging how upset you are. Do you know how upset i am? Talking with you is digging up my own biases, and what i was taught in my catholic school. It means going to places online where i, as a uterus haver, am considered less than fully human. It means thinking about disagreements that have ruptured actual family ties i have.

This is why people say you are starting a fight. You didn’t ask if we were ready to get back into this, you just did. This is personal to people, and can have had huge, real life consequences.

You know how upset you are with your mom, with her not being upfront with what pregnancy entails? How do you know that the people who are angry also don’t feel that same level (or more) of anger??????

I talk to you because i wish someone had had a frank discussion with me. Because i had an abstinence only sex-ed program. Because as far as i had thought through my own opinions on abortion, i believed in abortion, but only as a Last Resort.

I choose to engage with you, because i hope it will help you clarify what you believe. I hope it will help some lurkers. I hope.

And if all we are now doing is going to be stuck in a loop of “my mom is stubborn, and won’t give up the term pro life to the lying liars who stole it”, let me know. Because i can’t help with that, *i don’t know your mom*.

Valkyrine
Valkyrine
1 year ago

@katiekitten420
You said that your mom thinks that abortion is a sin (even if only on the same level as killing a bug), but at the same time that the fetus is not life, only potential life. You cannot kill something that isn’t alive, so that means your mom is lying on what she is thinking on one of those cases.

Thinking of abortion as a “necessary evil” and identifying as pro-life gives support and emboldens those people who would picket and bomb abortion centers. She is kinda allying herself with them and giving them her silent approval, even if she doesn’t mean to.

Sometimes we see people who come here saying that they know people who identify as MGTOW who are totally not just bitter misogynists and that they have just decided to focus on things other than dating, and because of that we shouldn’t be speaking so badly of migtows ’cause #notallmgtows and all that jam. Can you see how that might feel similiar to people here when someone asks us to concede that not all people who identify as pro-life want to strip women of their bodily autonomy.

Words are not just wind, as you said. They can have huge real life consequences and that’s why it matters that your mother refuses to give up on pro-life.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

I am confused about is how is my mom as a number of people have said equally as reprehensible as people who are anti-abortion and not truly pro-life

She is anti-abortion if she believes it should be a last resort. That is an anti-abortion stance. It is an anti-choice stance. It is an anti-personal-autonomy stance. It’s a stance that abortions should only be allowed if it aligns with a situation your mother deems acceptable. The only stance you’re going to get us to agree with is one where a person with a uterus gets to choose when and how she is able to have an abortion. Any belief that attempts to restrict that removes bodily autonomy from the pregnant person and you’re not going to get us to agree that it’s good or admirable.

And you’re causing us harm by coming in here and insisting this anti-abortion stance you describe is good and progressive and cannot be spoken ill of. You’re hurting us.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

Oh, goody – another wall of text.

Let me save everyone some time:

I’m going to ask the same question over and over and over and over and over until I get the response I want because I can’t UNDERSTAND anything else because I’m so fragile and immature and in terrible anguish and I agreed with you on some things and you’re all obliged to agree with me that the definition I admitted to cherry-picking a few pages back is the ONE TRUE DEFINITION and anyone who points out the historical and current usage is a big mean meanie who’s unfairly criticizing my sainted mother who totally invented this wonderful term and she’s perfect and how dare you say otherwise you’re attacking her because you’re MEEEEEEAAAAANNNNN and want to hurt me.

That about covers it.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

You seem to be much, much more angry about the fact that society hasn’t condemned the pro-lifers for being lying liars who lie, rather than the fact that the pro-lifers have been attacking and destroying basic human rights.

Oh, Catalpa, well-put.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

And also I’m not claiming she and her friend in their freshman year of college 1969 literally invented the phrase Pro life. I’m saying they liked it they adopted it for their group. I’m honestly not positive whether it was a case of hearing it and liking it or someone thinking of something that it already been thought up. Why does that definitively constitute picking a fight?

* tire screeching sound *

What? The basis of your entire argument has been that your mom used it first and shouldn’t have to change her labels because the anti-choice movement stole it. You even say it again here

I am confused about is how is my mom as a number of people have said equally as reprehensible as people who are anti-abortion and not truly pro-life simply because she is stubborn as f*** as you see it runs in the family and likes the phrase is like I used it first I know what I mean by it and I’m going to keep f****** using it.

I helpfully bolded so you can see exactly where you contradicted yourself. I guess because someone provided links showing where the phrase actually was used before 1969 you can’t claim she invented it anymore. I mean, she heard the phrase and decided to adopt it? From who? Please do explain how she both did and did not use the term first.

I’m absolutely losing my s*** over here because people are saying my mom is just as bad as people who literally picket and bomb abortion clinics. Why is she equal to them because she wants to use a phrase?!

For fuck’s sake. Way to misrepresent what our arguments have been. This is exactly why people are accusing of picking fights and not listening. No one has said. What we are saying is that the rhetoric she uses contributes to a culture in which anti-choice is seen a legitimate political position and in which people who commit violence while calling themselves pro-life are not viewed by either law enforcement or the mainstream media as terrorists. The way we speak about controversial topics matters. LIKE I ALREADY SAID PREVIOUSLY AND YOU REFUSE TO HEAR, TREATING ABORTION CARE LIKE A LAST RESORT, A NECESSARY EVIL AND IDEALLY WE WOULD NOT “HAVE” TO CHOOSE AN ABORTION IS CEDING THE MORAL HIGH GROUND TO THEM. Sorry to yell, but multiple people have made this point over and over and over and over again and it’s not sinking in. If someone says “I’m not racist I just like to use the phrase ‘all lives matter’ because I think it’s bad to kill police officers and it’s bad to kill white people too” wouldn’t you say they are indeed engaging in racist rhetoric because the whole point of “all lives matter” is to undermine the Black Lives Matter movement by intentionally misunderstanding what the phrase “black lives matter” means and derailing important discussions of police violence against black people by forcing a semantic argument and appropriating the use of civil rights language to protect and defend the status quo? It’s the same deal.

Ideally no one would ever have to have an abortion I think most people can agree with that.

No. I don’t agree with that. Because it’s a fantasy. There will never be a time there are zero unplanned pregnancies. There will never be time when no abortion is needed for medical reasons. At least not anytime soon. To me the ideal world is one in which necessary medical procedures are accessible and affordable in a judgement free environment. Saying that in an ideal world, abortion wouldn’t exist is still judgmental rhetoric that agrees with the anti-choice position that abortion is a bad thing.

By Last Resort I don’t mean something ridiculous I mean use
condoms, try to use the morning after pill and if something goes wrong yes then it’s a viable option.

It’s none of your business whether or not a person seeking abortion care used the pill or condoms. It’s none of your business what the reason is for seeking an abortion. It’s not your body. Who are you to judge? We should be promoting safer sex education and accessible contraception not to try to reduce abortion but because it’s the right thing to day. Because we should have all the information and should know the options and be able to use them.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

And also I’m not claiming she and her friend in their freshman year of college 1969 literally invented the phrase Pro life. I’m saying they liked it they adopted it for their group. I’m honestly not positive whether it was a case of hearing it and liking it or someone thinking of something that it already been thought up. Why does that definitively constitute picking a fight?

Right, this was on the last page, and i meant to include it.

I, too, thought this was what we were arguing about. That this was the basis of your claim, that your mom used ‘pro-life’ first, independent of the organised pro-life movement. Then the lying liars stole it, so why should she not use the term any more???

I guess my links were too much.

Like with my damn toonie example, no one would understamd what i meant if i used ‘dubloonie’ instead of toonie. And ‘dubloonie’ is NOT giving cover to people who would strip away the rights of people. (Which using the term ‘pro-life’ does.)

As others have said, you can’t be a ‘good’ incel. You can’t even be a ‘good’ MRA! If you choose to associate with a hate-group, your ‘moderate’ views are providing cover for that hate group.

Thank you to @Shadowplay for giving some context of the usage of the time, as well.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

Oops, sorry to double post, but that is what is happening.

@Katie, I believe you have said you are American. Here’s an article titled ‘The Real Question Isn’t How to Save Abortion Rights, but How to Prepare for Their Absence’.

This is the world we are in.

In Canada, the major parties might consider abortion a settled issue, but if it is overturned in the states, i’m sure we’ll see it up here again on the conservative platform.

The People’s Party (not a socialist party, but libertarian) will allow candidates to campaign on abortion restriction.

You say you are just asking questions to try to understand, but can you see how this touches a nerve?

As an example of how this comes off, perhaps this will illustrate it.

How is saying “all lives matter” wrong? All lives do matter! This includes black lives!

(It is wrong because it deliberately misunderstands what ‘black lives matter’ means, just so i’m clear. Sorry to use that comparison, i can’t think of another way to illustrate it, and Katie has said that she is active in racial justice circles.)

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I can’t see what it is it’s simply the phrase itself she shares literally nothing of consequence with the forced birthers.

We have literally proven how the concept of “abortion only as a last resort” is used by pro-lifers to justify the restriction of abortion rights. How it is an anti-choice stance, because it means that women will have to justify their abortions. You have not refuted that this is the case. Your mother does, in fact, share something of consequence with the forced birthers, by your own admission.

We are not saying that your mother us literally as bad as the people who bomb abortion clinics. No one has said that, so do not misrepresent the commemtariat. If anyone has said that, then quote them.

However, the defence of the term pro-life and the defence of anti-choice rhetoric is not going to fly here. It is never going to fly here. And no matter how much you make it out a personal attack against your mother, it is not. It is a defence of our rights which are absolutely under siege at this very moment. This is why we will not accept that there are “good” pro-lifers.

You want to think of your mother as a “good” pro-lifer? You want to consider “abortion is a sin” and “abortions should only ever be a last resort” to be harmless stances to hold? Well, we can’t stop you. But don’t expect anyone here to tell you that they agree.

That you have considered and accepted the other facts that have been provided to you in this thread and the last have been appreciated, though. I apologize for overgeneralizing; you are willing to learn, so long as what you learn doesn’t paint your mother in any sort of bad light.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

We are not saying that your mother us literally as bad as the people who bomb abortion clinics.

I want to add, because it’s important, that “not as bad” doesn’t mean “acceptable.” You (Katie) are mistaking “this is a bad position” for “this position is as bad as this other position.” No, we don’t think “last resort” abortion rhetoric is as bad as bombing abortion clinics. No, we still don’t think it’s acceptable, nor would we call it admirable, which you insist we must.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

I think this is the script we’re supposed to be following:

KatieKitten has made an argument.
The argument is easy to understand.
It is not possible to understand her argument and disagree with it.
If we understood her argument, we would agree with it.
If we agreed with the argument, we would apologize for telling her she is objectively wrong.

We are not apologizing for telling KatieKitten she is objectively wrong.
Therefore we don’t agree with her argument.
Therefore we don’t understand her argument.
Therefore, since the argument is easy to understand, our misunderstanding is deliberate.
Therefore, we are motivated by personal animus to misunderstand the argument.
Because we are motivated by personal animus, we are, deliberately and maliciously, hurting KatieKitten.

Of course the problem is that KatieKitten is objectively wrong, as has been demonstrated multiple times in the original thread and now in this thread. That’s her problem, not ours.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

@WWTH
OT, but I thought you would enjoy this. (I hope I’m remembering correctly that you like gymnastics.)

https://twitter.com/MohamedMOSalih/status/1084595345894432768?s=19

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Yeah, UCLA is known for fun floor exercises.

Fun fact, that gymnast, Katelyn Ohashi is the last person to beat Simone Biles in an all around competition (2013 American Cup) and is the only one to beat her in AA in senior elite competition.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

First, a few people said I was making them upset also. I’m truly not trying to claim my feelings are more important than anyone elses. But I can definitely see after rereading how it could come across that way and I sincerely apologize. No one else said at least to my recollection that the conversation was upsetting them intensely. And like I said I’m really bad at gauging other people’s emotions because I don’t understand subtlety. But I still genuinely apologize for anybody in my desire to comprehend this.

I also want to be very clear about what specific portions have upset me because I think a lot of people are thinking what they said upset me when it didn’t and I actually was very grateful for their reply such as Rhuu and Wwth. A couple of the things either of them and a bunch of other people said stung a bit right when I read them. Because they are obviously frustrated and irritated with me at this point for good reason. But still the same they are trying to make me comprehend that is obviously their goal. And I’m really grateful not only to the two people I mentioned but the others who are trying to help me comprehend in whichever way. I’m not upset at anyone who’s being informative in a frustrated or irritated way because I understand why they feel that way I’m upset by people who I feel are being just Petty and insulting for no reason and completely unhelpful. Why not just ignore me then if I’m so stupid and so malicious. I’d really appreciate

I’m getting on the train to go home and I’m going to reread everything again because I really feel like I must be missing some giant thing but there’s one person who I’m just really confused at what they’re trying to accomplish with their comments, especially the most recent one I mean to me that really reads like some straight up petty high school shit.

Apparently hippodeimia can read my mind and knows exactly what my motivations and thoughts are behind everything I’ve said. That’s a remarkable fucking skill. Where do I say anyone is deliberately and maliciously hurting me on purpose? I specifically said that wasn’t the case.

I said people were hurting my feelings by being somewhat harsh(I started with hostile but I realize that was excessive)because this is a very emotional intense topic and maybe that might not be the best way to go about it if they actually want to help me comprehend this.
I didn’t say they were doing it specifically to hurt me because why would they that would be ridiculous.

Seriously you are the only one who seems to be doing that at this point with that very last comment. Like for example look at the stuff Catalpa has said. Some things initially stung and upset me but most of it also helped and made me think. She also gave me a bunch of links and they helped a lot thanks again for that Catalpa.

You really seem to think I’m sitting here amusing myself arguing in bad faith and not just trying to understand something that for some reason is really truly deeply bothering me and I’m not even sure why which is even more frustrating. I don’t know why I’m fixated on this but I am and I apologize to anyone who has been emotionally affected in any type of bad way. But if you want to tell me my exact motivations and what’s in my head and exactly what I want please give me a reason beside that’s just how you feel.

Yes I am immature. My bipolar disorder came on very strong in high school and I tried to kill myself too many times was hospitalized too many times and my friends and family tend to coddle me too much. Only in the last few years have I well really my primary partner Jake realized that might be pleasant but it’s not good for me. I haven’t grown past the mental and emotional age of a college student and I’m 34.

But I’m admitting that out loud and you’re essentially or at least the impression I’m getting is you are trying to upset me now maliciously out of spite and I don’t understand why.

I’m not asking for any sort of apology at all I have distinctly said that many times. I also don’t need acquiescence or agreement or those things either I just want to comprehend this! If you think I’m lying and you feel the helpful thing to do is be facetious and mock me I really don’t know what to tell you. I admit I’m incredibly immature but really that seems more immature than what I’m doing. This feels like a pot calling the kettle black situation.
Lastly I’m about 95% sure I’m starting to comprehend at least. The last few dozen comments are making me get people aren’t equating her equally cuz that’s what it seemed like to me people were saying she is morally just like a forced birther.

I just don’t understand how her views can affect anybody badly when they’re only for her personally. Sure she’s devout but she realize the difference between idealistic and practical Solutions.

She helps fund Planned Parenthood for example. Also, last resort apparently was a very poor choice of words. She does not think women should have to jump through hoops she thinks a woman should be able to go to an abortion clinic that tells you don’t need to have any special reasons you just have to go and say I need an abortion and then they will give it to you. That is what she wants to be the legal policy for the entire land for the entire world ideally. To my knowledge that is what y’all want also so where is the huge discrepancy?

It seems like people think she’s running around telling everyone wow abortions are bad when that hasn’t been the case for at least forty years if it was ever the case which I truly doubt. People had said she’s anti-abortion and like forced birthers and those people are the one not necessarily bombing the clinics but those people go and spit on people walking in and out it happened to me

I don’t see how anything my mother does at all is even mildly comparable to actions like that. That is where my confusion is coming from. It seems like she believes everything most people here believe you know as a whole 90% cuz we’re not all clones LOL it’s not like everyone here believes 100% the same thing of course. But even though she shares the same views(and I realize my phrasing was poor earlier yes she and her friend Margaret in her came up with the term pro-life but how could she or anyone else possibly know if anyone else had used it before she did. It’s a simple combination of two words. Someone has probably said every combination of two words in the English language long before 19 f****** 70)

What I meant to say was she came up with it without someone else telling it to her I don’t know if it was first, like literally before anyone ever in the world said it, I would find that highly unlikely. By saying she came up with it first I meant she came up with it before the current forced birther pro-life group. I’m sorry that was unclear.

I’ve always felt why does it matter what beliefs you hold as long as you don’t affect other people with them pretty much all her actions are good or at least well meaning. I’m trying to comprehend why her thoughts hurt anybody, how can people see her thoughts? I already said she’s not just going to bring this up randomly so it’s not like people are hearing it and thinking she’s on their side.

Okay let me get on my train get home and read everything again because I think I’m getting close but there’s still some blind spot I haven’t been saying you are wrong, I’ve been saying I don’t understand so where does everyone get the impression(well not everyone a few people)that I’m totally not listening? I literally said I was wrong about every single thing except for this that I said in the initials thread because this is the only one that I don’t think it’s morally bad because I don’t see how it affects anyone at all they are thoughts in her head.

I read the links people gave me and I was like wow I was ignorant as f***. So why does me not understanding this single concept because I obviously have a blind spot or am just missing something make some people think I’m debating this maliciously and in bad faith? Please someone if you don’t mind I don’t care who but I’d really appreciate it if someone could explain why am I being malicious or in bad faith I don’t want hippodamia to do it though.

When I get off the train and get home I’m going to read every single thing again in both threads and see if I can have one of those lightbulb Eureka moments, lol. The fact that I spent so much time reading and rereading what everyone has said by itself should show that I’m listening and care and really badly want to understand this by the time I’m done when I get home I’ll probably have read every single comment 4 times.

I have tons of new books I want to read. I want to play Final Fantasy 7. I got a new beginners loom for Christmas that I haven’t tried out yet, etc. I have so many better things to do LOL, if this wasn’t important to me for some reason as I said I’m not sure exactly what the reason it is but I am fixated on this and can’t let it go.I apologize for that also. I wouldn’t be doing this for petty harassment value and anyone who thinks I would I think needs to do some introspection themselves because projection is a huge thing. I hope everyone had a lovely weekend and is ready to start their week. Good night all

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 year ago

Well, my week turned into a bit of a mess. Anyone else here ever had the blower for their car heating/defrosting go out at -40 F (& C!) with 3 dogs in the car?

It was exciting. We made it home safe, with the natural convection out of the defroster just barely keeping ahead of the combined sauna breath of three just exercised pups.

If the blower had gone out a few miles earlier, I would have had to call a tow truck, because visibility is important.

But yeah, thighs got busy.

I’m kinda surprised this thread is still going, to be honest. But, what the heck, I have 10 minutes til bedtime!

Which means I can’t do my usual for the past six months of draft a response, edit, edit, edit, edit, find the thread’s moved past my comment’s usefulness days ago, and delete without posting.

So… @KatieKitten

I just read the entire thread over again. The things that stick out to me are:

Do we HATE your Mother Dearest?

Someone can be a good person and do a lot of good things and still have some problematic stances. Calling out a problematic stance isn’t the same as saying the person with the stance is absolutely evil.

Folks in this thread have done a pretty good job laying out examples of why being hung up on things like abortion being a last resort can be dangerous to women’s lives and health.

There are other things, too.

No one has to be perfect, and none of us know your mother. She could be awesome with a side of problematic or she could be the literal antichrist. We have no way to tell, putside of how you write about her here.

It definely sounds like you love and respect her. Focus on that, and maybe stop trying to defend her honor here? Because I don’t think anyone hates her here. Some folks may not LIKE her and may HATE specific stances that they attribute to her because of how comments have been written…

…but there’s a huge difference between loathing an opinion and hating a person. Like, I HATE the fact that my 95 year old grandfather can’t wrap his brain around evolution and that he genuinely worries I’m not going to make it to heaven because I’m cool with Darwin and don’t think every word of the Bible is literal, but I still love him

And what people here may or may not think of him is 100% not my problem.

On Calling Mother Dearest Pro-Life

Regardless of who used pro-life first, it has connotations to the general reader, and will predispose them to making educated guesses on what things the so described individual believes.

Your mother is welcome to keep the label, but we don’t have to agree with it.

And, even if she wanted to, I don’t think the label can be saved and reassigned to your mother’s meaning in this thread.

And I don’t know how useful continuing to try and clarify her positions will be in winning us over to calling only folks who believe as she does pro-life.

And I’m even more skeptical of the usefulness of continuing to try and describe exactly what she believes in order to make us align with her position.

Maybe give it a rest? Or, better yet, maybe introduce your mother to the site and let her describe herself for herself? And argue her own positions?

Or even better-better yet, maybe we can turn from your mother entirely and work more on what YOU believe!

Because we don’t and can’t know your mom just from your comments.

Or, we can maybe decide this thread, no matter what, is going to totally be a Pyrric victory at best?

On “I Didn’t Come Here To Pick a Fight”

Maybe that wasn’t your intention, which would be awesome! I’m down with not fighting!

But…. I have to admit that when you stated in your first comment that:

I was at least 80% completely wrong but one or two things I still stand by. So I’m not going to get on that again…

Those kinda sounded like fighting words. Maybe not intentionally, but going “I was wrong and you were wrong but let’s not talk about that” is pretty traditionally passive-aggressively argument fuel.

It’s okay to not want to talk more about it, but if you had just asked the questions in that first comment about whether or not the comment atmosphere towards folks who ask questions is overly toxic and harmful, we could have spent 3 pages actually working on those questions, instead of the thing you didn’t want to get into.

Like, Ingenuinely believe you didn’t initially want to start a fight.

But… you couldn’t resist the (very human) urge to try and get the last word in either about the previous thread.

I get it, it’s totally natural. I do it far more often than I’d like to admit!

But… that kind of statement has about the same chance of starting a fight as starting a angry swarm by kicking a hornets’ nest.

So yeah, can I see why people might think you were trying to start a fight?

Yep.

Do I think you meant to start a fight?

No.

Was a fight started?

I’m not sure. I don’t think I’m fighting you here, and I don’t think most of the folks commenting here are trying to fight.

They’re trying to talk to you and feeling like they’re beating their heads against a brick wall, and you might feel the same.

Although, maybe a couple do feel like they’re fighting:

100% individual perception about whether or not it’s a fight or discussion.

I gotta cut myself off here, because instead of being 10 min early to bed I’m now 50 minutes late to bed!

TL;DR for my entire post

1. No one thinks your mom is Satan here, but we don’t necessarily agree with her positions as you’ve represented them.

2. Continuing to clarify your mother’s positions is unlikely to change or effect anyone’s opinions.

3. Our comments here, likewise, cannot change any of your mother’s opinions.

4. Maybe we should limit ourselves to discussing things we CAN change, like our own beliefs and opinions?

5. I used too many words.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 year ago

So, long reply either got caught in spamfilter due to typo and will show up eventually or deleted and lost for all time.

I’m going to bed and maybe it will appear.

Edit: NVM there it is!

Also, dog is panting IN MY EAR and it makes it hard to sleep. Gus, if you’re too warm MAYBE go back to the foot of the bed and not be plastered against my side?!?

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Hippodaimia, Also re “the script you’re supposed to be following?” I don’t even really know what you are trying to convey by that. You think I want everyone to agree with me in the exact same way or something? Like everyone else who has disagreed with me and even said even stuff that upset me I could usually although not every single time, draw a line and see where they were coming from. This is just bewildering to the point that it’s not even upsetting it just sounds like literal nonsense. I have no clue what you’re talking about. Again I feel like I’ve repeated this 18000 times but this is not an attack I literally have no clue why you feel this way.

This is real life how could everyone follow a script and why would I want them to even if they could? I’m sorry if this sounds naive and immature and trying to pick fights with you also that is definitely not my intention but my confusion seems to offend you in some strong way and I don’t know why.

I’m sorry if I’m offending you by being ignorant and confused and wanting to comprehend this. Sincerely I’m not being snarky I mean that.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

KatieKitten, I don’t have to read your mind when I can read your words. I’m treating you as a troll because at this point you are one.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

What I meant to say was she came up with it without someone else telling it to her I don’t know if it was first, like literally before anyone ever in the world said it, I would find that highly unlikely. By saying she came up with it first I meant she came up with it before the current forced birther pro-life group. I’m sorry that was unclear.

The current forced birther movement is madr up partly by the Catholic church.

I already showed how it was a widely used catholic term, in 1968.

But fine. If you absolutely have to have this one, your mom independantly made up the word.

I just don’t understand how her views can affect anybody badly when they’re only for her personally. Sure she’s devout but she realize the difference between idealistic and practical Solutions.

Beliefs shape how we interact with the world. That’s why it is important. You could have a friend who believes that white people are superior, but never says anything about it. How do you think that is going to play out?

I have so many better things to do LOL, if this wasn’t important to me for some reason as I said I’m not sure exactly what the reason it is but I am fixated on this and can’t let it go.

So do we, Katie. So do we.

Contrapangloss said

Or even better-better yet, maybe we can turn from your mother entirely and work more on what YOU believe!

Because we don’t and can’t know your mom just from your comments.

And yeah. I’m done with your mom, i think. None of us can clarify this any more than we have, and i don’t feel like you are in a place where you can think about her stances with any sort of rigor.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

No one else said at least to my recollection that the conversation was upsetting them intensely.

I have been telling you again and again how pro-lifers have been (successfully!) attacking basic human rights. About how pro-lifers are literally posed to remove even more abortion rights from a huge chunk of US women at this very moment.

I’ve been telling you that these are people who are literally trying to kill me. (Because that is what would happen to me, if I became pregnant and was unable to obtain an abortion.)

Why the FUCK would you think this topic isn’t upsetting to me? This isn’t just some argument about semantics, this is literal life and death.

I’m trying to comprehend why her thoughts hurt anybody, how can people see her thoughts? I already said she’s not just going to bring this up randomly so it’s not like people are hearing it and thinking she’s on their side.

If no one could see her thoughts or could ever hear about them and she never acted on them, then of course they wouldn’t be harmful.

But you have spent at least 6 pages over two threads telling us all about her thoughts. You have spent at least 6 pages telling us that those thoughts are okay. That those thoughts are good. That those thoughts are ADMIRABLE.

That doesn’t sound like those thoughts are just being kept to your mother, does it?

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

I said people were hurting my feelings by being somewhat harsh(I started with hostile but I realize that was excessive)because this is a very emotional intense topic and maybe that might not be the best way to go about it if they actually want to help me comprehend this.
I didn’t say they were doing it specifically to hurt me because why would they that would be ridiculous.

Serious question: why does anyone here need to want to help you comprehend this? Some of us don’t want to. But we’re not going to just shut up when you come in here and trample all over our feelings and ocillate between meanings on terms you’re using and arguments you’re making. People have been exceptionally kind to you, spending 6 pages on one thread and now 4 pages on another thread trying to explain to you, but you keep saying we haven’t explained things we already explained (that’s why we say you aren’t listening, btw). You’re already in violation of the comments policy by rehashing this, but we’re not that petty. We’re letting you continue to ask these questions, even though it hurts us. Even though our rights are under attack by people who ask those same questions and who shift goalposts the way you do (that’s why you’re being called a troll, btw).

Keep reading Hippodameia’s post until you understand it. That’s what this feels like from our perspective. It feels like you think we’re intentionally twisting your words because we disagree with you. It feels like you’ll accept nothing less than a, “yes, your mother is admirable and good in all things, even in her use of this toxic term and toxic belief system.”

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

Agreeing to everything Catalpa has said.

I’m not sure how you can read ‘This is a matter of life and death, and staying out of poverty’, and not see how it could be intensely upsetting to have to explain again and again how a pro-life position, ANY pro-life position, is harmful.

People have shared personal stories with you, to try to make you see *just how important this is*. I know I have shared articles about how important and precarious people’s access is, to this essential health service.

You want to see just how upsetting this is? How upsetting it can be? Read this article. Read it all the way through.

(CN: Super frank discussion about a late term abortion on a wanted pregnancy. Goes through the process, as well as the cost. AS WELL AS the fact that they had to go *out of state* to get it done, and the danger the providers face.)

But my doctor had previously referred patients to Dr. Hern, who’s in Boulder. He’s this 78-year-old man who’s been doing this for decades, who developed a lot of the abortion procedures that we know to be the most safe. He’s had 37,000 patients and he’s never lost anyone. And he’s a zealot, but he has to be. There are websites dedicated to offering money to kill him; his practice has four layers of bulletproof glass. They’ve been shot at. He was there during the Roe v. Wade decision. He’s been through it all. And the only other peer he had at his level was Dr. Tiller, who was killed in 2009.

And then this:

I made friends with a nurse who was from Brooklyn, and she told me that the reason that the procedure is so expensive is because, first, their insurance is so crazy high, and second, the whole staff—the nurses, the front desk—is paid really well because they’re risking their lives to be there.

(emphasis mine)

The price for the shot? 10 grand USD. For a pregnancy that, if carried through, will result in a baby that will die immediately.

How do you know, talking to someone on the internet, that they or someone they know, have not been through a situation similar to this?

Doctors who do late term abortions are on *hit lists*, and you’re surprised that people are emotionally invested and upset by this topic???

Not to say we can’t discuss it, but THIS is what you are walking in to. THIS is why demanding we find a way to find your specific mother’s specific definition of pro-life to be ‘admirable’ is just never. Going. To. Happen.

cornychips
cornychips
1 year ago

@for anybody on the fence about late term abortions

I highly recommend reading the article Rhuu just posted. It WILL leave you in tears.

It’s taking me a long time to detangle the fundamentalists childhood brainwashing bullshit from my heart and brain. This article further solidified my pro-choice beliefs.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@cornychips – It’s really hard to detangle this, I’m really happy that helped. I was certainly tearing up while reading it as well.

If you want to read more about this sort of thing, I’d recommend the abortion tag over on Dr. Jen Gunter’s blog. She’s really frank about it, which I respect.

(Sorry, don’t want to find the link on a work computer, but the tags are right there on her blog.)

kupo
kupo
1 year ago
cornychips
cornychips
1 year ago

@kupo and rhuu

Thanks for the links and recommendation!

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

Thank you, Kupo.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

@Rhuu

Yes, thank you very much for all of your effort tracking down those links and resources! It is very appreciated! <3

And thank you as well, kupo!

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

@Hippodameia
You’re welcome! It’s not right that she is singling you out, here. You have perfectly valid complaints about her behavior. ❤

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@Hippodameia – I’m sorry, I should have acknowledged you earlier. Thank you for being plain spoken. I hope that Katie can read your posts, and see that they are translating what it feels like is happening, again and again.

Perhaps not now, but maybe in a few months when she has some distance, much like what happened in the other thread.

Your anger is understandable.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

It is simply because everyone else said they thought certain things. She definitively accused me of motivation like she is psychic and could see into my brain what I was definitively doing and what my motives were. I can’t believe people are saying that’s okay. Anyone would find that offencive.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

What you intend and what you actually do can be two separate things. You may not have intended to start an argument, but, well, just look at these two threads. You sure did it.

TL;DR your motivation may not have been to pick a fight (in fact, I’m fairly sure that your motivation was to tell us how mean we had all been to you and to have us all fall over ourselves to apologize, no fighting required), but pick a fight you did.

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 year ago

Katie, I forgot to bold the section header, but see the On “I Didn’t Come Here To Pick a Fight” part of my previous comment.

It may not have been your intention to start a fight, but people are not pulling the accusation out of thin air. There’s some other stuff that you’ve been doing that also acts as confrontation fuel, but I really need to go to bed on time tonight.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
1 year ago

So I’m a liar and a troll now because I want to understand something. I’ve been here since it was manboobz but I’m a troll. I’m obviously not wanted here anymore cuz I don’t get this and won’t pretend I do? I don’t know why but I’m being straight up insulted because Im asking questions and not just following the party line. Wow. Why is everyone focusing on my worst part of my comments and ignoring my sincere apologies and gratitude? That’s all that’s relevant? After years of commenting here in good faith I’m a troll and a liar cuz I’m confused. Catalpa you say I’m not listening. Why are you saying I want apologies when I said the opposite more than once? At this point I’m literally being insulted because I don’t understand something and many people in this progressive open minded site see no problem with that. I don’t get that either.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
1 year ago

Thank you Contrapangloss, your comments were appreciated. At least you don’t think I’m a lying troll. Please go to bed and sleep well. Happy dreams

Valkyrine
Valkyrine
1 year ago

@katiekitten420
Could you answer if whatever your mom thinks abortion is a sin or if fetus is only potential life, because it can’t be both if she is being honest, right? I hope I’m not coming of too confortational, but that is a contradiction in what you have told us, yes?

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

I’m actually really pleased because I think I’ve convinced her that it is not a sin at all like I very much resented the fact that she did not tell me anything about pregnancy especially when she f****** almost died having me apparently I did not learn this till the last few months. She is tiny as me it runs on her side of the family all the women are tiny and she had to have an emergency C-section because she weighed 118 lb and I weigh 9 pounds and it wasn’t happening

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

I accidentally pressed send before I was done we’ve been conversating since that thread and if God is love then wouldn’t he take that potential life and put it in a place where it will be better later because generally if people are having abortions it’s because they need to because of money or responsibility issues or they’re too young or a thousand things or even if it is just because they want to it’s their body that’s their prerogative. This is what I said to my mother. But if God is love I don’t think he will consider that it’s a sin because it’s not done out of wanting to harm, it’s done to make the person’s life who is pregnant better. And we’ve been going back and forth but at this point I think she tentatively agrees with me I do not think she would stand up and be counted in front of everybody at her Catholic Church though, just to be clear and fair and honest.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

I’m just beyond offended now that I’m being called a troll when I’ve been here for longer than some of the people who are calling me that simply because I’m asking a question. I’m not calling anybody names I’m not just playing Devil’s Advocate in trying to piss people off I think it is very obvious I am trying my very hardest to comprehend this and how does that in anyway make me a troll?

And at this point some people are actually just projecting things onto me that I literally never said. Like this is unbelievable to me. People who are usually open-minded and intelligent are just saying I’m a liar and a troll definitively no matter what I say. Apparently in this one case women shouldn’t be listened to. In this one case my lived experience is don’t matter apparently I’m just a troll and a liar. According to some people at least. I repeatedly said I do not want apologies I do not want acquiescence. I want to understand.

Anyone who says something different is straight up calling me a liar and some people think that’s perfectly okay. Apparently that’s some few people call Progressive open mindedness here

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

Katie,

Apparently in this one case women shouldn’t be listened to.

Do not.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Why not?! I use that phrase for a reason. Seriously do you not see this people are literally calling me a liar and a troll when I’ve been here for years because I’m asking questions in good faith. But because I honestly don’t know why as I’ve been saying forever I am a liar and a troll that shouldn’t be listened to. That seems fucked up to me. First I was sure and I said so I was wrong and missing something large and wanted to understand because everyone else share the same viewpoint. Now I’m not positive. Not too long ago black people were considered definitively lesser than white people everyone just believed it. Just because they all shared the same Viewpoint they weren’t right. I’m here asking questions because I want to understand something and people started calling me a troll started calling me a liar simply because they decided it was the case. Do you honestly not see why I brought that specific aspect up I think it applies very well

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Why not?! I use that phrase for a reason. Seriously do you not see this people are literally calling me a liar and a troll when I’ve been here for years because I’m asking questions in good faith. But because I honestly don’t know why as I’ve been saying forever I am a liar and a troll that shouldn’t be listened to. That seems fucked up to me. First I was sure and I said so I was wrong and missing something large and wanted to understand because everyone else share the same viewpoint. Now I’m not positive. Not too long ago black people were considered definitively lesser than white people everyone just believed it. Just because they all shared the same Viewpoint they weren’t right. I’m here asking questions because I want to understand something and people started calling me a troll started calling me a liar simply because they decided it was the case. Do you honestly not see why I brought that specific aspect up I think it applies very well

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

Why not?!

Because you being a woman is not a free pass to do and say whatever you want and then accuse us of being misogynistic for not agreeing with you.

I’m here asking questions because I want to understand something and people started calling me a troll started calling me a liar simply because they decided it was the case.

No. You’re being called a troll because of your behavior, not because someone made an arbitrary decision about you. I have not seen anyone call you a liar so you’re going to need to back that statement up.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Before I say anything because I know people are going to take this and misinterpret no I don’t think people are arguing with me because I’m black also I don’t know how that double posted and I’m sorry.

Maybe this is me overreacting it is very possible I’m an emotional person. But people literally saying what I feel and my motivations are different from what I expressly stated. Why is that okay ? Can you not understand why not just as a woman but as a queer black woman that is beyond hurtful. Sure the erasure of all women’s views and lived experiences in a lot of ways is horrific. But if you honestly can’t understand that it is indescribably worse for black women I don’t know what to tell you and that is what I feel. I feel like people are just ignoring what I’m actually saying to put it all in a script that they are used to hearing.

As a black woman specifically(queer is sometimes relevant but not always because that’s something that people can’t just see without you telling them) I have had to live with my opinions and experiences and literally everything being worth less than anyone else’s. Depending on the topic and the context it goes white man white woman black man black woman or white man black man white woman black woman. That is the order of whose opinions and lived experiences are more likely to be listen to and valued. At least in my living experience.

But I am specifically saying over and over again I don’t want apologies but people are saying yes you do I’m saying I don’t want acquiescence people are saying yes you do. Why is that okay in this case? When I have said a thousand times is all I want is to understand. And the fact that you phrased it that particular way “just don’t” kind of says something in my eyes. I don’t think that part is specifically because of my race, but for some reason apparently you feel you can dictate to me or something, cuz you didn’t ask, you demanded.

But still with all this I am the rude lying troll because I’m literally asking questions. People have done that thing where they put my words in boxes and made things in italics that were disagreeable can someone please show me where I’m doing something other than asking questions and being confused because I don’t think I deserve being called a liar and a troll for asking questions and being confused and I think at this point anyone would be pissed.

And since black women are always at the bottom of the f****** totem pole and that’s how it feels right now. It feels like I am being attacked for asking questions and wanting to understand when I did not do the same to those bitches on Jezebel. For some reason this really brings that to mind. Because I’ve had white feminists ask me questions that were so much more racist and offencive than what I asked here including as I said earlier that bell curve s***. But if they were asking in good faith I really did try to answer and help and educate even though I’m not obligated to because that makes the world better for everybody.

Again to be very very clear I’m not saying people are doing this because I am black. I am saying that we are always at the bottom of the totem pole as black women as far as our opinions and lived experiences being listened to so it still kind of resonates that way no matter what the reason is.

People are saying I want apologies, people are saying I am a troll, people are saying I am lying, when I have literally distinctly said the opposite of those things. I said I don’t want an apology, what do y’all owe me an apology for? That would be absurd. Because I want to understand what my mother is doing that was so bad and hurting people just because she believes something and I think the worst thing I’m doing is obsessing over it, which sure I’ll accept that’s inappropriate(cuz she’s my f****** mother which makes it important already and I have mommy issues kind of) but now apparently that makes my opinions and everything else lies? When I’ve been here in good faith for years. In some cases longer than the people who are accusing me. I honestly don’t understand why this is okay and people are just like yeah call Katie a liar and a troll.

Like people really think I’m doing this to amuse myself? Seriously?! Isn’t that what trolling is? A number of people have said I’m obviously upset, whether or not people think I should be or I’m justifiably or irrationally upset I think it should be obvious that it’s is the case that I am upset.

How does that make me a liar and a troll? And how does it make it okay in this case to say my statements are just Lies when it’s not okay in other cases ever pretty much. Someone who can do that little box thing can see how many times I’ve said no I don’t want apologies or acquiescence I want comprehension. At this point obviously people are just insulting me for reasons I can’t comprehend. They are literally ignoring exactly what I wrote and saying I want the opposite because they know better than me and that’s okay with everyone or not everyone but a bunch of people.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

They are literally ignoring exactly what I wrote and saying I want the opposite because they know better than me and that’s okay with everyone or not everyone but a bunch of people.

You are saying one thing and then acting another way. You also contradict your own arguments constantly so it’s not exactly easy to even interpret what you’re saying. If telling you intent is unimportant and describing your behavior how it looks from our perspective is calling you a liar then I don’t know what to tell you.

I could go back through your posts and find the literally dozens of things you’ve said that aren’t just asking questions like you requested, but what would be the point? When people show you where you’re wrong you either ignore it or tell us we’re misinterpreting you. Then you later get angry and say you admitted you were wrong when you didn’t actually.

I’m not going to do that. Not only because it won’t be productive, but also because it’s irrelevant, as one of the most common tactics we see on here employed by trolls and dissenters is Just Asking Questions. It’s so common we have a mocking term for it: JAQing off.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Seriously? I said repeatedly I don’t want an apology for example. What good would an apology do and why would I want one. It won’t help me comprehend this. But catalpa says I just want everyone to apologize to me. And that is not the only time someone claimed my motivations were the literal opposite of what I personally wrote. That is exactly calling me a liar

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

So because trolls also ask questions I must be a troll? Are you kidding me? So I commented for years in good faith, but just all of a sudden decided to be a troll? Does that only sound absurd to me?