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Weirdo black conspiracy theorist hates Bird Box because “no good-looking brother would want a pregnant, pale, pig-nose beast like Sandra Bullock.” And that’s just the beginning.

Sandra Bullock and Trevante Rhodes in Bird Box

By David Futrelle

It isn’t just the white supremacists who are mad about Bird Box. No, it turns out that at least one black supremacist has some big problems with the Netflix post-apocalyptic horror hit as well. And his issues with the film are even weirder than theirs.

Some white supremacists are taking aim at Bird Box, as I noted in a recent post, because they think the film — whose most heroic figures are a white women and a black man — is some sort of SJW propaganda designed to denigrate the straight white male.

But the black conspiracy theorist behind the virulently anti-white and anti-Semitic Race Rules blog is angry at the film because he doesn’t think the handsome black hero of the film would really be into “preggo over-the-hill skank Sandra Bullock” who “looks like a damn tr***y.”

Mr. Race Rules starts off by noting that he doesn’t like “race-mixing” in movies because there really is no such thing in the real world.  Strap yourself in here, folks, because this is where things start to get really weird. “[T]he so-called races are actually different species,” he writes.

Blacks are the only humans and everyone else are all animal humanoid hybrids or what I call manimals.

And even though Sandra Bullock’s self-sacrificing boyfriend in the film, played by Trevante Rhodes, presumably doesn’t believe that white people are literal “manimals,” Mr. Race Rules still doesn’t believe that “someone as good looking as that brother” would want anything to do with

a pregnant, pale, curveless, pig-nose beast like Sandra Bullock in real life … Black men that are attractive rarely go after skanks unless  they have been hurt by black women, they are drunk or high or just goddamn brainwashed to fuck manimal bitches for some reason like porn.

Love that he manages to blame black women for what he sees as Rhodes’ poor romantic choice. Weird how dudes who rail against the alleged evils of white women — regardless of their own race or political views — almost always seem to hate black women at least as much, if not more.

Mr. Race Rules is also annoyed that Rhodes’ character turns out to be what today’s white supremacists would call a cuck — raising kids fathered by men of a different race. Sorry, species.

To make matters worse the dumb ass nigga was going to be raising two white kids with a white woman as a black man. What the fuck is that? Reverse reparations?!?!? I’ll never take care of some white bastard kid. She didn’t even want them herself just like most white females who always pretend to love their kids. Ain’t buyin’ it. White females are full of shit…..literally and figuratively.

Despite the much-discussed diversity of the Bird Box cast of main characters, there are no black women in roles more prominent than “Woman in Entryway.” Mr. Race Rules thinks he knows why.

“Did anyone notice this one last very important thing?!?!?” he asks.

NO BLACK WOMEN!!!!!!! That was no fucking accident. The elite worship the black woman. It is their doorway to the future through the black womb since pinkazoids are all dying out….much of it from their own compulsive self-extermination.

Wat.

They never want to disrespect the black womb-man too much on the big screen because they know where we all come from. There’s no problem slaughtering and incarcerating record numbers of black and Latino males but they have to protect the black womb to ensure their genetic future for now. Most black females still don’t get it. Once the manimals get what they need from you….YOU’RE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!

Just FYI, black “females!”

But Mr. Race Rules’ theories about white manimals and black womb-men aren’t even the weirdest part of his, er, review of Bird Box. No, that honor has to go to his discussion of “falcon Heru the Hero.” Who, you ask? Let’s let him, er, explain:

The movie had a few interpretations as far as I could see with my 3rd eye partially open. One is the blind fold was blinding the pineal gland showing how everyone is really unconscious these days from all the poison and brainwashing. Second the bird box (B+B=2+2=22+Master Builder) showed how the falcon Heru the Hero is actually being held in a box or this Matrix and keeping his 3rd eye (really 1st eye) from awakening by the parasitic elite and their minions using light-bending technology to prevent the light code frequencies from returning through our ancestors.

Okey dokey then.

For a little context: Heru is another name for the falcon-headed Egyptian god Horus, and is apparently a major part of the esoteric conspiracy theories that Mr. Race Rules and a number of other similar theorists espouse. But I haven’t looked into the details of this yet, because my poor brain has already been taxed enough for one day, and I suspect that now yours has been as well.

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Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

OMG I’m so sorry wwth I’m not ignoring you I just had the most awesome night I just got home. I got on the train and I met this awesome girl and I ended up going back to her house and making out with her like we were high schoolers LOL. I literally just walked in my door. I totally meant to address you when I got home like I said well I meant to say I would address everybody because I didn’t understand what y’all were asking for previously but now I totally get it but I’m exhausted because it’s 9:20 a.m. and I literally just walked in my door.

I am so sorry that you feel ignored because I hate to feel ignored and that was not my intention, wwth. But since I’m somewhat drunk and it’s 9:21 a.m. I’m going to bed. Apparently deity was smiling on me tonight because that was the best night I’ve had in a few weeks. It made me feel less insecure that a 24 year old found me attractive. Obviously I already have a primary and a secondary partner, I’m not going to like intensely pursue this, but it was a very pleasant experience.

Maybe I’m being utterly silly but at 34 in the last few years I’ve started to feel kind of old because I’ve completely lost the resilience and energy I had up to my late twenties. I also feel less attractive but thats Society telling me that women over 30 are useless and ugly and I have to just block that out.

Anyway I grant you intent backed up by nothing isn’t important but I don’t think my intent is backed up by nothing. I take action that conveys my intent or at least that’s how I perceive it. But now I need to definitely go to bed LOL.

I will address the people who said I need to make a point list and I will address the people including wwth that said I need to consider their concerns or I am also being inconsiderate which I agree with. I was just too emotional to realize the extent of people’s concerns and upsetness which was insensitive and I apologize.

All right everyone have a lovely day I’m going to sleep. I’m so thrilled I feel all full of self-esteem and good things. I know it’s unhealthy to attach that much to a random hookup, but I feel it’s better than not feeling full of self-esteem and self-confident and lots of good things at all.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

@Katie
I’m glad you had a great night. Sounds like a lot of fun, and I’m glad you are feeling good.

I take action that conveys my intent or at least that’s how I perceive it.

That’s not how it’s taken ftom this side. You say you don’t intend to hurt us, but you continue to say things we’ve pointed out are harmful to us, and as near as I can tell you’re doing this because you disagree that it’s harmful. You don’t get to decide for others what’s harmful to them, though, and by continuing to say things we’ve repeatedly told you are harmful you’re demonstrating that you don’t actually want to avoid harming us if you don’t agree with us that we’re harmed.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Here, allow me to provide an analogy of intent. How unintentional harmful behaviour should be addressed by the person doing the behavior:

“Hey, I brought these cookies! Try one!”
“Um, those cookies have peanuts. I’m allergic, if I ate one of those I would need to go to the hospital.”
“Oh, I had no idea! I’m sorry, I’ll make sure not to bring peanuts around you again.”

How it shouldn’t be addressed:

“Hey, I brought these cookies! Try one!”
“Um, those cookies have peanuts. I’m allergic, if I ate one of those I would need to go to the hospital.”
“What? Why won’t you have any of my cookies? That’s really rude!”
“Those cookies are literally dangerous to me.”
“No they aren’t! My mom made these cookies, and she would never hurt anyone! How dare you say that my mom is dangerous! You’re really hurting my feelings!”
“Even if she didn’t intend on causing me harm, this absolutely will.”
“No! She put tons of good things in these cookies! Chocolate chips! Oatmeal! Brown sugar! They’re delicious! I can’t believe you won’t even try one! You’re hurting my feelings!”
“No matter how good the other ingredients are, the peanuts are still dangerous.”
“Well, the peanuts never caused ME any harm!”
“Good for you, but I’ve unfortunately eaten peanuts before and doing so again might literally kill me. They’re dangerous for a lot of people, actually.”
“I can’t believe you’re saying that I’m trying to kill you! Why are you being so mean?”
“I’m not being mean, I’m telling you about a fact of my life and many other people’s.”
“No! You’re saying that I want to hurt you! I never intend to hurt anyone!”
“Maybe not, but that doesn’t mean that you won’t hurt people if you keep trying to get them to eat allergens.”
“I just don’t understand! This is making me really upset! Why are you doing this to me?!”

And so on. Claiming that you don’t intend to cause hurt won’t magically make you not cause hurt. If you do cause hurt unintentionally, apologize and don’t do the thing again, instead of trying to convince other people that they weren’t really hurt.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

@Catalpa
This is my life now 😭. Food sensitivities suck. (Also, good analogy.)

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

Claiming that you don’t intend to cause hurt won’t magically make you not cause hurt.

Nor will it give you a pass when you hurt people.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

It seems to me by reading over some things that I wrote Catalpa you make a good point. I apologized sincerely which is the 1st part of what you said and I think people do believe I meant the apology for what that’s worth.

But then I do it again so what’s the point even if I’m sincerely sorry if I’m not stopping the action is that what you’re saying? I want to make sure I understand you and I’m not putting words in your mouth.

Also I’m sorry if this is annoying and a dumb question. But what exactly, like please explain it like you would to a toddler,( I’m getting used to explaining things to toddlers because my niece isn’t going to be four till April LOL) am I doing aside from the thing that I just said that is upsetting. Because I do believe and accept what people are saying is true I’m not saying anyone’s opinions are less valid than mine and and I’m not judging anyone else’s opinion. Although I see how I could have been perceived to have done that in some specific cases.

But as of now what are the things I’m doing that are particularly offencive or distressing or upsetting people? Like you said to me there are just too many things so I’m not sure which are the truly important offencive hurtful things. And which parts were just irritating and slightly rude and ignorant. I would really appreciate it thank you very much

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

Also I’m sorry if this is annoying and a dumb question. But what exactly, like please explain it like you would to a toddler,( I’m getting used to explaining things to toddlers because my niece isn’t going to be four till April LOL) am I doing aside from the thing that I just said that is upsetting.

You are not a toddler.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Yes, continuing to do the offensive thing after being told that the thing is offensive renders any apologies or claims about not wanting to cause offense meaningless. You parsed my analogy correctly.

The pro-life apologia is the offensive thing, in this case. Just cut that shit out, and everything can be copacetic.

Or, to put it in simplified terms, avoid saying anything that you may want to say regarding allegedly positive things that have been done in the name of pro-life, or anything regarding what abortion should be, aside from freely available for anyone who needs it, for any reason.

We aren’t interested in hearing about “nice” or “true” pro-lifers, or about under what circumstances an abortion is justified, either in your view or in your mother’s.

If this hadn’t already devolved into such a shitshow, I might have been willing to extend an offer that you could come here and ask “hey, my mom thinks that abortion is [x], is this a problematic view? In which ways?” and we could educate you further. However, I have no faith that you would be able to consider any criticism of the stance as anything other than an attack on your mother. And we have already provided you with a wealth of sources regarding abortion rights, history, and the threats to bodily autonomy that exist even now. If you wish to learn more, then go back through the pages of this thread and the other, and read all of the links that you have been provided.

TL;DR: just drop the subject. Don’t talk about abortion or pro-life here any more. It is your safest bet. Read what you have already been told and try to set your knee-jerk responses aside for a few minutes, if you truly wish to learn more.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Oh my God it’s a saying! I never claimed to be a toddler LOL that’s the type of thing I’m talking about where I feel like a very few people are at this point just looking for something in everything I say to find objectionable. When I politely(and I feel like it was obviously semi jokingly to try to inject a bit of lightheartedness because I’m trying to make more amity to make for more pleasant conversation) asked someone to explain it to me like I’m a toddler because people were like this is offencive this is upsetting and I’m trying to fix that and for the 18,000 time I honestly have very poor capabilities of recognizing upsetness in other people I don’t know which things are the most important ones which is why I wanted it explained I was a toddler.

And I was being a touch facetious to try to bring some you know lightheartedness or something I can’t think of the exact word I want.

It’s like now I’m trying to do exactly what Kupo(again thanks so much for the help with that it was so concise and useful)Rhuu, and WWTH requested. I was just about to do the bullet points and I was going to address what WWTH says cuz she’s completely right, I was disregarding peoples concern and so I wanted to know which are most important the better to address them.

To me that says when I’m being over emotional and overwrought and it’s making me oblivious, insensitive and not thinking of others I got berated(that’s not a complaint, because it’s completely justified with good reason)

But then now that I’m trying to do exactly what a few people have asked me to do you’re just like okay no stop? I don’t understand that at all. Like people are willing to engage maybe with irritation frustration and some anger and hostility when I was acting like I have been but now that I finally got to a point where I feel I can actually like ask what I need to know in a useful fashion that is much less likely to bother people and much more likely to get results for me meaning actual comprehension(bullet points for the win, LOL, remember I didn’t realize why large walls of texts were such a problem)and I’m not being all emotional and extra anymore you’re just like okay be quiet now and be done?

Then what was the point of it all? I got upset, a bunch of other people got upset there was a bunch of unpleasantness and animosity and anger and upset among a group of people that no matter what might appear I do respect the majority of them and now that it seems maybe just maybe it can be resolved in such a way that I can understand and people won’t be upset I should just stop? Wouldn’t that make the discussion just a giant waste of time and worse a waste of time where people got upset and hurt feelings? How isn’t that the almost absolute worst possible outcome?

Again if I’m being naive and immature and oblivious/insensitive okay someone please tell me. But after all that intensity and anger and upsetness on some sides and everything and now after all of it when I’m finally like oh okay this is what you want and I understand now and am perfectly happy to do it you’re like go away and stop? Why?

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

*huge sigh*

Wouldn’t that make the discussion just a giant waste of time and worse a waste of time where people got upset and hurt feelings?

The discussion so far is only a waste of time if you truly haven’t learned anything from it. And if you haven’t learned anything from it yet, I have very little faith in any continued discussion enlightening you any further. Ceasing the discussion is the most likely outcome to minimize futher wasted time and hurt feelings all around. See: sunk cost fallacy.

Technically, instead of stopping the discussion entirely, I could have just asked you to stop repeating pro-life apologia. But you seem to be fuzzy on what that specifically is, so to explain it on a toddler level, I simplified it to you stopping talking about it entirely.

But, fine. Sure. You want to keep doing this. Then, here, do these two things with your next post:

-First, what is your end goal for this discussion? What outcome would happen that would make you go “oh, okay, this wasn’t a waste of time at all!”? Tell me what that looks like.

-List the questions, specifically, which you feel that we have not answered. Using only one or two sentences for each question.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
1 year ago

I have learned a lot that is my point, lol. Or else you would be totally right. I never would have had the pregnancy conversations with my mom and learned what it truly entailed from her and y’all, first and foremost.

This thread I’ve learned a number of things, look at my responses to Rhuu and Pagan and even you at least once in gratitude for your links. I’m going to be home shortly and do exactly what you and others said to do. Thanks for clarifying. See, I made a short(ish)comment just now😀

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
1 year ago

And I thought I stopped apologia a while ago. I saw it was one of the things causing the most hostility. I said if saying I see them as 2 different views is upsetting people and irrelevant besides(as people said that well is poisoned, that ship has sailed)I’ll let that part go totally

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 year ago

All prayers to the html-formatting mammoth, may it be kind.

Katiekitten, unless something changes this will probably be my last attempt to talk with you about the subjects in this thread. This was a crud-ton of work, and I’m starting to feel envious of woodpeckers for their ability to not give themselves concussions.

I’ll happily say hi in another thread, provided the topic doesn’t, you know, turn into this thread part III.

First off, there is no way this is going to be completely comprehensive. In this thread alone, you have made thirty-two comments (as of the start of me writing this) which accounts for:

15.8% of all comment activity on this post (41 of 260 comments)
46 pages exported to openoffice of text (Calibri, 11 pt)
22,061 words (Firmly in novella length, over halfway to full on novel)
Only 79 words were on topic for the contents of the post and/or the conversation prior to your first comment (less than 0.36% of your words fit the topic prior to the disruption)

Even though a lot of your posts contained redundancies, that’s still a crud ton to sift through. Seriously, you alone typed more words than are in Macbeth!

Secondly, this is not going to be a fun post for you to read. Since you asked for help identifying why we reacted poorly to your posts, it’s going to nitpick the way you’ve communicated. It’s VERY nitpicky.

The Approach and Outline
For reference, I started this after Catalpa’s reply at 12:46 am server time. I’m not going to reference anything past that post. Also, this post is going to be ridiculously long. The sections are as follows:

What Went Wrong
So, How can We Salvage This Thread?
TL;DR: Tips and Tricks for Getting Along

Once again, these are all just my opinions. Other people may disagree, and they are totally allowed too. Maybe some folks even beat me to better explanations.

Also, since you stated in your final (when I started this) post that you had finally gotten to a point of maybe understanding the meat of the discussion (i.e. the pro-life stuff) which other folks gave excellent explanations for throughout the thread, I’m only going to deal with the pedantic communication stuff.

What Went Wrong
Take all of these with a grain of salt. Your mileage may vary.

As I mentioned long ago, you started off on the wrong foot. Your first few comments have a lot of statements that (typed) come off as very passive-aggressive. For instance, as I mentioned way back:

I was at least 80% completely wrong but one or two things I still stand by. So I’m not going to get on that again

This type of statement basically says (to the reader) that you think they’re wrong, but you don’t want to give them a chance to defend themselves or their position.

From there, you ‘asked a question’, but it took you 111 words of exposition from the time you said “I have an entirely new question” until you actually asked the question. This ‘exposition’ basically was a way for you to (possibly unintentionally) prime the reader to expect what the answer you wanted the question to have. In case you don’t remember, between saying “I have an entirely new question” and actually asking “Hw does hostility help someone who’s not a troll and is truly trying to educate themselves and be a better person?” you had to say all this (actually, I cut some because the length was ridiculous):

The answers I get to that will tell me everything I need to know and not getting any answers will tell me almost exactly as much. I’ve gotten very discouraged by the purity testing and just hostility and nastiness to people who are ignorant and honestly trying to better themselves … I would never claim anyone had to educate me.

The question was a valid question! BUT, because of the exposition, it was not only buried but it made it seem like you already had a preconceived answer of “Hostility and nastiness towards people just asking questions is bad, and you should just ignore people if you don’t feel like being patient”

Maybe that’s not what you intended, but that’s the message I got.

This kind of exposition makes the reader feel like they’re either having words shoved into their mouth (you’ve answered for them) OR like you’re already accusing them of being hostile, judgmental, jerkfaces who are mean to poor, innocent question-askers instead of patiently answering or politely ignoring them.

Despite the poor framing, a few people did actually answer the question of why just being sweetness and light to people who are trying to learn isn’t always useful. More people weighed in on why education (while it happens here) really isn’t a goal. But, we never really got to have a great discussion on this, because the first blockquoted thing that you didn’t want to get into got gotten into.

This pattern continues with most of the questions you ask, in most of your posts. Either the questions themselves are rhetorical (where you planned for the question to not require answers), you accidentally write the question such that the question has a clear implied answer, or you take a decently worded question and add a bunch of either exposition before or you answer it immediately afterwards.

Rhetorical questions can be great used appropriately. But, because you’ve framed the discussion as you’re asking to learn, you should probably try to ask to learn, instead of asking while explaining.

To sum up the first problem I’ve had with your commenting, it’s harder to seem like you’re authentically asking questions to learn more when you add your own opinion immediately before or after, or include your opinion inside the question itself.

A second problem, also having to do with questions! You often repeated questions multiple times, even after some people had made attempts to answer the questions. It’s okay to need clarification, but…

I will give you some credit. You did incorporate paragraph breaks, for which I am extremely grateful. If all of Macbeth were a single wall of text, well… it just wouldn’t flow as well. You also often at least referenced peoples responses! But, your behavior didn’t change. Or, you acted insulted that people had made the explanations they had.

For instance, when folks initially started accusing you of trying to pick a fight, you acted incredulous. I, Rhuu, and some folks gave you a few comments stating why we thought some commenter’s might see your comments as picking a fight.

Your reaction? Acting incredulous and insulted that people thought you were picking a fight.

Another example: Rhuu and I have both asked you to be specific with your questions, because we felt the conversation was going around in circles. It took an entire page of comments and multiple prompts from WWTH before you acknowledged that maybe doing some point summaries would be good.

Admittedly, these weren’t demands, they were advice. But, when it takes that long to acknowledge the advice it kinda makes it seem like maybe you weren’t as interested in how to communicate better with the thread as you professed to be.

Takeaway from this section: Saying you’re listening seems less sincere without behavioral changes

You have vociferously claimed that you do not guilt trip.That was not your intention. There’s no way you mean to guilt trip. You are just telling us your emotions, and emotions are valid. After all, isn’t it this place that keeps saying emotions are valid?

Wait, did you just see that? That, right above, is classic guilt tripping. Right there. It’s not a direct quote from you, but something very much like that did appear in some of your comments. Here’s one, from your second comment:

I’m a little confused because I’ve heard many times on this site it matters if people feel hurt by what you said it’s really messed up to tell them how they should feel so if I feel a few people were rude to me I’m just wrong that’s what you’re saying? I’m not trying to be bitching truly it just seems like you’re saying I felt hurt and attacked at the time for no reason at all I was just imagining it? I disagree and I regret it also different people have different points of view what is upsetting and hurtful and harsh. My settings are tuned very high I am very insecure and over-sensitive and I know that but people here also know that so why be harsh?

The reason I call this guilt tripping is because the questions you’re asking have pretty clear implied answers. Like the last one, we should know you’re sensitive, and so we cannot be harsh with you because you’ve heard many times on this site that it matters if people feel hurt.

While you were typing the comment, it probably didn’t feel like you were writing in a manipulative way, but the end result is manipulative.

Here’s another example, from your first post:

The community on this site help me learn so many things. But nowadays if that’s the type of response I’m going to get when I asked a question about something I’m totally ignorant about then I’m too scared to ask it.

Here, you didn’t use a question. However, it’s still a bit guilt trippy because while your intent was to say that the community seems like it’s changed so that it’s harder for commenters to ask questions, the way it’s framed again seems like it’s meant to make other commenters feel guilty for not being as kind as they used to be.

One last example here from post 28:

Anyway, obviously people are not feeling me here and would probably appreciate it if I stop commenting any more. Not everyone obviously not even most people but apparently I’m really upsetting a few people and I’m only one person so I guess that’s not fair. I’m going to go smoke some weed and go to sleep everyone have a good day

Little kid me tried (purposefully) what you did accidentally with this one. Basically, when my older sibling was playing with their friends, I felt left out and abandoned. I told them essentially “woe is me, my sibling hates me and maybe I should just run away because no one would miss me anyway.” I then went for a walk around the block without saying I was going on a walk around the block. My sibling (understandably) was freaked when they noticed I was AWOL.

I’m not proud of that. I was 8, and a guilt-tripping little monster. I try to be better. There’s even a song with this narrative structure: “Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, guess I’ll go eat worms.”

Do you see how that can feel manipulative?

I know it’s not your intent. You are not as much of a jerk as I was at 8. Congratulations. As I said before, this post is purposefully nitpicky, because you wanted to know specifics and it’s really hard to pick specifics when it comes to problems of tone.

Another thing that can seem a bit guilt trippy is a thing that I am also very guilty of. Very recently, you asked to have things explained like you were a toddler. Earlier on (somewhere abouts page 2) you asked for something else to be explained as if you were a four year old. You fairly frequently refer to being bad at various social skills. You apologize for not being concise. Now, I want to be clear. Admitting you aren’t good at all the things isn’t a terrible thing. However, when it’s this frequent?

While not your intention, it has the net effect of putting us in a position where we feel like we have to step carefully around you, because you’re sensitive and lack social skills and you’re just confused by us and…

… when almost every single post has so much of a focus on how hurt, or how upset, or how frustrated you are, it feels much less like an honest expression of emotions and feels more like you’re using it as a cudgel. The truth is, all of us lack social skills. A lot of us are terrible at tone on the internet. A lot of us have at least one issue where we are heavily emotionally invested, even if we hide our emotions a little bit better.

In case you needed a sense of scale, I used a random number generator to select a post. Your twenty-eighth post. Of the 1145 words in the post, 700 were in sentences that dealt with your emotional state or desires. If I also removed sentences where you admitted a personal failing of the “this is why I’m bad at communicating, that only leaves 350 words, only 30% of the entire post.

It’s overwhelming and exhausting. Even if it isn’t your intent, can you see how that can feel like you’re trying to get us to comfort you and make you feel better? Even if that’s not your intent, can you understand why it stresses us out?

Takeaway from this section: It’s really easy to accidentally guilt trip, and you totally guilt-tripped.

Last thing, and this one’s short. You do a lot of asking for us to be specific. For instance, asking for us to blockquote where you said specific things you think we’re attributing to you. Or asking us to blockquote or refer to specific things you’ve done that drive us up walls.

… and then you are super general when it comes to what you accuse us of doing. For instance, before we called you out on it, you acted as though a whole mob of folks were accusing you of trollishness when it was only a few. You also accused folks of saying your mother was exactly like clinic bombers when no one actually said that. We did have a lot of confusion about what her positions are, and we did say that some of her positions were problematic and have impacts that do actually harm women’s lives and health, but I can’t actually find a comment saying your mom’s a clinic bomber.

So, to sum up: Some of the problems that lead to people not believing you were here in entirely good faith include:

— Use (accidentally or not) of passive-aggressive voice and framing
— When asking questions, you tend to frame them as if seeking specific answers (rhetorical questions
— While you acknowledge people’s posts, you don’t always seem to actually learn from them
— While you say you don’t mean to guilt trip, the result looks an awful lot like guilt-tripping.
— While you ask for us to be specific, you tend to use a lot of generalities

There’s actually one fix that might help a lot of these things. You and I are at opposite ends of the posting spectrum. I’ve actually been lurking, a LOT. I do this thing where I see something I want to respond to, type up a response, edit, edit, edit, look back at the post and find the conversations moved way beyond where my comment would be useful OR see someone has already said pretty much what I was going to say but better and delete! Bye-bye words and online interaction!

It’s not the best system.

On the other hand, you (as you admit) don’t do much of any editing.

We could both learn from each-other, here.

Posting without editing, as you do, is great when the conversation is going well. Better than my system actually, because, well, my system ends with me (usually) not even being in the conversation.

BUT, as soon as things start going poorly, you need to do some editing. As soon as your feelings are hurt, you need to do some editing. Your emotions are valid, but chances are if you are having emotions than other people are also having them, so it’s time to start being careful.

Write your comment as you have been, but don’t post right away. Breath. Edit. Trim away the words that don’t add things. Breathe. Edit. See if two ideas can be combined into one. Breathe. Edit. Is this something that truly needs to be said? Breathe. Post.

In general, fewer words is better.

For instance, when you’ve attempted to apologize in this thread, we’ve had difficulty trusting in the sincerity. Even though you’re apologizing you include a heck of a lot of words explaining or rationalizing the behavior. Or when they’re immediately followed by another rhetorical question asking why the apology was even needed.

For instance, when you’ve attempted to tell us about how much these discussions hurt you, we’ve had difficulty distinguishing it from an attempt to guilt trip us into agreement, because so many of your words are focused solely on your anguish and how badly we’ve made you feel.

Apologies and feelings are both important. They matter. But, on paper, they both seem more genuine when fewer words are used to express them.

So, How can We Salvage This Thread?</
Simply, we probably can’t. At best we can hope for it to resolve to a point where

(1) You don’t feel like everyone hates you and you can comment again elsewhere on WHTM.
(2) The people who are exasperated with you remain exasperated but not infuriated

In all honesty, the best approach right now is to probably end this discussion; after six pages, I can’t imagine that you’re actually going to learn anything further here without making outcome (2) far more unlikely.

We’re probably not going to get to a point where you 100% agree. We certainly are not going to 100% agree with you. Guess what, we aren’t a hive-mind. Or a bunch of ferrets in a David Suit, as the old story goes. But, bringing that up — the “I was at least 80% wrong but 20% right” type comment — does not help with outcome (2) as I’ve explained in an earlier section.

For outcome (1), I hope that maybe this post helped? I’m earnestly trying to help, because I don’t think you’re a troll. Seriously, if you want to know how I treat trolls, just go see the Desparate Ambrose Thread of Desperation. I’d be a lot snarkier and I wouldn’t have wasted this much time writing this many words.

Honestly, it’s time to let this thread die. Don’t think that means I want you gone, because I welcome non-trolls. However, I think it might be helpful if you (and we) shelved this specific thread’s discussion.

In general, anytime a thread gets even into two pages of disagreements, it’s probably safe to say that it is unlikely for any new information to actually do anything useful without risking frustrating even the most even-tempered. Like, there may still be potential for knowledge acquisition! BUT, if that knowledge is acquired by annoying the hell out of the rest of the thread or community, the cost might be a bit too steep.

If you want to be a community member, not aggravating everyone else is a good idea.

Still ask questions! Just… also be open to moving on before things get this heated. Sometimes it’s best to learn elsewhere. Accept the explanations you’ve been given as the sincere convictions of those who gave them, even if you disagree personally. Then exit.

The best and most nonconfrontational way to exit is to say: “Thanks for trying to explain. I’m not 100% sure I understand where you’re coming from yet, but I’ll keep thinking. I’m sorry for the thread-derail.”

It’s short, it’s (hopefully) honest. It acknowledges the people who tried to communicate with you, and it acknowledges that things went off course (even if you didn’t intend them to).

Then, make sure the next derail doesn’t get to SIX PAGES. Please and thank you?

TL;DR: Tips and Tricks for Getting Along
If you aren’t familiar, TL;DR or “teal dear” stands for “Too long; Didn’t read”. If you read nothing else, I’m going to hope that maybe this is the section that sticks the landing.

Remember, the dose makes the poison: In moderation, expressing emotions and opinions and acknowledging weaknesses is great. Too much, though, and your real message gets completely buried. When your feelings are hurt, allow yourself 1-2 sentences max for stating how you feel. Then, try to focus on the greater discussion.

Be careful with rhetorical and leading questions: Anytime you use a question mark, consider whether or not the question (as worded) already implies the answer you want people to give, or does it actually ask for more information? Rhetorical questions can be super useful, but they can also make the intended audience really annoyed, because it’s a question, but it’s not.

The more strong your opinions (or the more your emotions are involved) the shorter and more thoroughly edited your posts should be: When commenting is going well, feel free to continue commenting with your current stream-of-conciousness style. However AS SOON AS folks start to react negatively or you have a heavy emotional investment, it is time to slow down. Edit. When editing, try to mostly remove words, not add them. For each sentence, ask yourself “Have I already said this?” and “Does this sentence actually help further the discussion?”

Don’t be afraid to cut your losses: Sometimes, as I mentioned in the previous section, a conversation will become unsalvageable. You can disagree with folks, that’s allowed. But SIX PAGES of disagreeing generally means that you aren’t going to sway opinions. SIX PAGES of people attempting to explain things unsuccessfully means that maybe those things aren’t going to be learned here, or that future learning will come at too great a social cost. After even 10 comments without making progress, it’s okay to say: “Thanks for trying to explain. I’m not getting it now, but I’ll keep thinking. I’m sorry for the thread-derail.” Then, move on with your life and pick a different subject/thread.

Try to stay on topic (or join a previously existing discussion): As I mentioned, less than 1% of your post was on the original discussion. This is a shame, because (before this thread exploded) I had actually typed a response to just those first 79 words because they were useful and taught me something and there was something I wanted to ask you! Aaaaaaand now it’s so long ago that recovering the discourse of the first page seems impossible. Threads do often get off topic, but try not to derail if you don’t have to.

Defend Your (not someone else’s) Opinions: Bringing up family as an example is fine, but don’t argue their positions for them. At most, one to two (short) comments is more than enough for examples. Focus on YOUR unique thoughts and opinions instead. You are not your mother, I am not my grandfather, we do not know their positions and thoughts well enough to successfully argue them. Additionally, when they differ from yours, it can add significant confusion to the thread.

Do your best to assume the best about your critics: In online forums, tone can be really, really hard to tell. If you are frustrated in a conversation, it is likely the other party is as well. Try not to ascribe motives of maliciousness when things like frustration, sleep deprivation, caffeine overdose, hurt feelings, or genuine and rational disagreement might be more likely.

The Stronger the Emotions Or Opinons, The Shorter the Posts: This is a duplicate point. I know. But it’s important. As soon as you start feeling hurt, or if you have very strong opinions, that’s the best time to slow down, edit to oblivion, and ask yourself about each sentence (and even each post) “Does this really need to be said?”

Lastly, if you aren’t having fun, you might be doing it wrong: Of course there are subjects that we cover in these threads that aren’t fun! However, if a topic is genuinely hurtful, it’s okay to insulate yourself and move onto another thread. If someone seems to be having a rough time, maybe pop in with a cute kitten pic for them, and a “sorry you’ve been having a cruddy time”. Try to build up a bunch of short, community building interactions. Make it so that when we see your nym we don’t automatically think only of “Oh, crud, it’s going to be another six page Macbeth staring KatieKitten’s Mom and the Unique Definitions” Comment when the commenting can be a joy, not just when you disagree with 20% of the community’s general opinion of a topic. If we only ‘see’ you when you have something to argue, it’s hard to keep perspective.

Good luck. I hope this was useful. I know you’ve had more comments than just these last two long derailments, but these are pretty memorable. Maybe for now, focus on building up some community goodwill with other topics.

Thread at large, sorry for the truly massive wall of text. It is a nine page hell in OpenOffice. If I ever make a post this long again, ask David to take a banhammer to me. Please. PLEASE! SAVE US ALL FROM THE CONTRAPANGLOSS WORD-MONSTER. IT’S AAAAALLLLLIIIIIIVVVVVEEEE!!!

Shadowplay
1 year ago

@Contrapangloss

I’ve missed your posts.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Thanks, Contrapangloss.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
1 year ago

@Contrapangloss – that was amazing.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

OMG contra pangloss you are incredibly awesome!! Okay I am totally aware that it is not something I am entitled to it all and it is a huge ask but like I said about your other previous comment like this one this is so helpful to me! I meant when I said explain it to me like I’m a toddler I was being a little facetious I mean yes like I went to college I wrote papers people say I’m reasonably bright LOL. This is actually what I would have asked for exactly if I had the words for it something long and incredibly nitpicky and precise. This tells me literally exactly what I should do and exactly what I shouldn’t do in almost every case to me that is incredibly helpful because of my lack of social skill and subtlety and Nuance in a lot of senses. Of course a lot of people have trouble with social skills, I’m not denying that or trying to belittle them. But I don’t want to get all into my emotional s*** again like you said I would be surprised though simply from the reactions I’ve gotten in real life if a large number of the people here were anywhere near as bad at the specific things I mentioned as I am. Like I wasn’t able to go to my ex-boyfriend’s work parties and stuff like that with other significant others in friends because I’m terrified I’m going to do something to actually mess up their life because it has happened.

What I meant was explain it to me exactly like you just did. I did not take any offense at all actually the absolute opposite like I’m thrilled by you. One of my biggest issues is I feel humored and condescended to and not truly heard(which is different from being listened to people can listen to you but not hear you all the time) a lot of the time for two reasons. One is important and semi(I don’t know which word I want I guess profound works) that’s the one I stated earlier black women are the least listened to and believed and even if they are believed no one cares most of the time of all people. And that type of thing, IMO especially if you lack confidence in some ways and are insecure like me can be very internalised into you and makes you expect it pretty much constantly. You don’t even really think about it that’s just what you expect because that’s been your lived experience for most of your life, at least for me and many of my black female friends I’ve discussed it with. Secondly it comes from my paranoia and insecurity. In those cases that’s not actually what’s happening but it is hard for me to see that.

I feel like you went out of your way and took a whole ton of your time to help me how can I take offense at that that is a gorgeous compassionate kind thing. I’m going to do what you said and I’m actually going to reread everything again while I’m calm and rational including the relevant links maybe not every single one but the ones that seem important maybe all of them will. But thank you so intensely much.

Okay to end this on a lighter note a lot of people here gave me some really good relationship advice a while back having to do with my primary boyfriend Jake, and my secondary partner my girlfriend Tameeka. All right I have another question.

So I met that girl on the train and she’s 24 just barely LOL. I’ll be 35 April 2nd. I think hooking up with her once or even if it happened a few more times fine whatever that would be pleasant and have no moral goodness or badness, it would be two consenting adults hooking up. I mean we didn’t even come close to having sex LOL.

But I very strongly believe in polyamory I’m very happy with my two current significant others and that situation as a few people here help me with is totally awesome now our interrelationship issues have vanished pretty much. But the reason I didn’t come back and comment till so late was I was on the phone with her for ages and it was fun and engaging and I really enjoyed conversating with her both times last night and on the phone. I mentioned my situation and she seemed to think it was cool but was like very incredulous about not getting jealous. Who thinks that I should just kind of cut this off ASAP as nice as I can?
Cuz at least judging from my personal experience younger people get attached quicker and harder like I got my heartbroken in my late teens and early twenties more than once but it hasn’t happened since that.

What I’m worried about is 1 let’s say she can even accept polyamory maybe she’ll want more attention and time than I can give I mean three people is a lot and right now she is single so she would have no one else giving her that type of attention. And who thinks I should just let it grow organically and see what happens but be careful and explain these things very specifically maybe introduce her to Jake or something those are the two things I thought of. If anyone has any other advice that they think is helpful I would truly appreciate that like another way to go about it. The last thing that worries me is I’m a bit over a decade older than her. She’s a full grown adult so I don’t think that’s morally wrong but I’m not quite sure what I do feel I feel a teeny bit maybe creepy. What do y’all think? Is hooking up with a girl who just turned twenty-four when I will be 35 soon even a little bit sleazy or creepy? Does anyone think it’s inappropriate and a bad idea cuz I feel a little squeegy about it and I don’t know why?

Again it could just be me being insecure but my usual rule is 10 years older and seven years younger but that’s kind of arbitrary also okay I’m doing that thing again where I’m just putting in way too much useless information so yeah any advice would be welcome.

But before I say anything else on the topic I’ve been harping on I am going to go back and read absolutely everything while I’m rational and calm and maybe just maybe then I won’t need any more answers or at least not very many. Thanks again everybody who helped and the people who didn’t because no one is obligated to help me or educate me. Have a lovely day everyone I’m going to bed

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Bravo, Contrapangloss! That was a very thought-out and educational post, and it clearly took you a ton of work. (I could stand to apply some of that advice to my own posting habits, even.) Thank you for putting in so much effort, you really went above and beyond the call of duty.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
1 year ago

@ contrapangloss

That was fantastic; I’m in awe.

It’s a pity there’s no way of ‘stickying’ your general guidance points; they’re just such a helpful template.

I wonder if it’s worth asking David if they could be added to the FAQ or the Comments Policy bit?

Shadowplay
1 year ago

@Katiekitten

*Grabs machete, hacks through text jungle. Carves a summary

Question: Should I keep seeing this woman, who is younger and may not be able to handle a poly lifestyle? She is fun to be with.

Answer: If she’s looking for a serious relationship and you’re honestly not certain you and your partners could handle it, it would really not be kind at all (to any of you) to keep going.

Otherwise, talk it over with her clearly. Lay out the pitfalls and problems that can crop up. You’re the older and more experienced – it’s on you to provide her any information she needs to make an informed decision.

Who knows? She might just be out for some good, clean, dirty fun.

😛

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

That’s the phrase I was looking for thank you Catalpa. Above and beyond the call of duty. That is something that I could never just ask for. It would be totally inappropriate to ask someone to do that kind of work because of a whim or arbitrary desire of mine simply because it was helpful to me.

If there was a dictionary for phrases LOL, this is exactly what should be the entry for the phrase above and beyond the Call of Duty. I can totally understand why you thought I might be slightly or more maybe even more than slightly offended because like I said I’m definitely oversensitive and touchy. But I am literally honored by the effort you took on my behalf.

Thanks again and like I said I’m reading through everything now, I should be finished by the time I get home tomorrow night and then I will put together a comment with bullet points and short one or two sentence portions. I honestly don’t even have the words to describe how grateful I am for this.

In reference to my second question are you even 1/4 as good with relationship advice😛😃😆? Because if you can give you something even a quarter as helpful is that was I believe it would probably be awesome LOL.

I believe in the colloquial concept of Karma that has become popularized so I believe you will get back all the help, effort, time and compassion you gave to me from somebody else when you need it, and you won’t even need to be reincarnated first LOL. I hope you have the most absolutely awesome Friday and weekend because you deserve it. You’re the best.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
1 year ago

Katie kitten420 wrote:

She’s a full grown adult so I don’t think that’s morally wrong but I’m not quite sure what I do feel I feel a teeny bit maybe creepy. What do y’all think? Is hooking up with a girl who just turned twenty-four when I will be 35 soon even a little bit sleazy or creepy? Does anyone think it’s inappropriate and a bad idea cuz I feel a little squeegy about it and I don’t know why?

I think you probably feel squeegy about it because a significant age difference inherently alters the power dynamics in a relationship and opens up avenues of potential abuse or manipulation. That said, as long as both of you are aware of those possibilities, take care to ensure that no coercion or manipulation occurs, and remain honest and open with each other about the dynamics of your relationship, it doesn’t have to be a problem.

My first sexual relationship was with one of my mother’s friends; she was 49 and I was 18. We saw each other for more than a year, and it was a foundational and extremely positive experience for me, so a large age difference doesn’t have to be a negative in a relationship.

Just be aware of any potential issues and maintain honest and open communication, and you should be fine.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
1 year ago

Thank you, contrapangloss. Hopefully this will get Birnam Wood to Dunsinane at last. 🙂

contrapangloss
contrapangloss
1 year ago

Aw, shucks. I really appreciate you all’s kind posts.

I’ll try to maybe not be such a lurker-McLurkface who edits too much and misses all the fun.

@Hippodameia, I’d like to thank you for that reference! It did not make me sorely tempted to prance around the house brandishing a 12” fake Christmas tree. Not at all.

We all know I’m far too stoic and serious for such things.

I would NEVER

@Katiekitten: I’m glad it helped! This post is old enough that it’s no longer on the convenient recent posts sidebar, and the other threads are active enough that this post also disappears from the recent comments in the length of time I tend to be away from the site.

So, it’s going to be really likely I’ll miss responding to further stuff on this thread.

However, the Gillette thread looks like they’re having a ton of fun making parody shanties in honor of a super-obvious troll, if you want to try your hand at being a bard.

No pressure! 🙂

In response to your relationship questions, I’m afraid I’m not going to be terribly much use. I’m as ace as ace gets, and most of my “relationship” experience involves panicked flailing on the rare occasion that I finally recognize that someone’s been flirting with me.

Example: I actually agreed to go to dinner and a movie with a friend of four years. You know, only the most stereotypical date in the universe as another friend pointed out to my sheepish face later.

On route to dinner, they tried to start the “so I was hoping this could be a date” discussion and it was super awkward.

The movie was great, though! And we’re back to being solid friends, after a brief awkward period: we still hang out, bring each other home cooked food, and laugh our heads off about reruns of Ancient Aliens.

At a guess? Gaebolga’s and Shadowplay’s advice seems legit.

Katie kitten420
Katie kitten420
1 year ago

Thank you very much. I was just trying to ask you know a much less intense question to lighten the mood and the two answers I got are very helpful especially the age difference one because yeah I was very explicitly honest from the beginning and I will continue to be. My only confusion is like I would have probably when I was 24 I would have thought of a polyamorous relationship as that’s cool and different and risque but I would not have been mature enough to be in one but maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse. Like she specifically stated she doesn’t understand why I don’t get jealous if my boyfriend sleeps with another girl and I tried to explain in my eyes getting your dick wet does not necessarily mean intimacy of any sort but we went off on a tangent so never actually had the full discussion.

Obviously I’m not trying to say everyone should be okay with their significant other sleeping with other people but I do think most people can agree that a lot of people, both men and women(but in my experience more often men)are completely capable of having sex without any emotional attachment at all. With some people even to the point of forgetting their name the next day 12 hours later LOL. That I know for a fact has happened to my boyfriend more than once.

To me examples like that are the epitome of why I’m not jealous. I mean what is there to be jealous of there, LOL? I mean I know he loves me and has in one way or another since we were literally 14 years old! Why would I be jealous of a girl whose name he doesn’t even remember just because his penis was inside her for a few minutes? Is that a good way to explain it? I know I can be really bad and unclear at explaining things sometimes and also tactless and insensitive so if anyone thinks that there’s a big problem with that way of explaining it please let me know. I’d appreciate it greatly.

It also makes me feel better that you said the age difference doesn’t have to be a negative by definition. And the fact that it was actually awesome and helpful and a good emotional foundation for relationships for you makes me feel much better. Thank you very much for the little happy advice interlude that is much less intense. I just wanted to make the tone of the discussion more mellow.

Any way to anyone who’s interested still I read all comments very carefully again while I was calm and happy and I’m almost done with the links now. Since now you have to press older posts to get to this and that’s annoying and extra effort to anyone who still helping and or just interested, I will put my summation on the new post with a prologue saying what it is for anyone who wants to ignore it because it is off topic and some people are still willing to answer as long as I do it respectfully and with bullet points and the way people asked kindly for me to respond the final time.

But some people are just done and have no desire to read any more about this which is totally cool so I will put the little prologue warning. Anyway I’m walking to the train to get home I thank everyone again because now I at least feel like we’ve gotten to a place of mild understanding on both sides if not complete comprehension.

I don’t think everyone thinks I am trying to be mean and upset people intentionally and be a troll and I’m not overreacting anymore. I’m trying to truly listen and other people I think truly do see that I never meant for it to get intense and out of hand like that and now I actually have learned and understood a lot more than I did previously which I am very grateful for. And I hope nobody thinks that I’m just uncaring of the feelings of the community here anymore. I was just over emotional and irrational and not seeing a lot of things I should have.

Thanks again for everyone who took the time and made the effort to that whole long thread to keep trying to assist me. I’ll be home soon like an hour or two and put up my last list of queries but concisely with bullet points of one or two sentences each LOL. I hope everyone is having a lovely day and night

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

. My only confusion is like I would have probably when I was 24 I would have thought of a polyamorous relationship as that’s cool and different and risque but I would not have been mature enough to be in one but maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse. Like she specifically stated she doesn’t understand why I don’t get jealous if my boyfriend sleeps with another girl

…I might be a bit wary of getting involved with this person beyond casual encounters. If she doesn’t understand why you don’t get jealous when your boyfriend has sex with someone else, then I think she is reasonably likely to get jealous when you as her girlfriend are having sex with other people.

I’m not saying to not get involved. Just make sure that everyone involved clearly understands the whole poly arrangement and is happy with it. Happy with it, and not just okay with it. Sometimes people get involved in situations that they are unsatisfied with, in the hopes that they can change the other person if given the chance. Resentment tends to bubble up when the hoped-for changes don’t happen.

Disclaimer– I have never been in a poly relationship, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

(Although I kind of have an adjacent view- I’m ace, and in the previous relationship that I had, I would have been 100% fine with my partner having sex with other people, since I’m certainly not going to be fulfilling that desire. Love and sex are very separate things to me, but I tend to approach them from the view of “yeah you can totally have love without sex” rather than the more standard “yeah you can totally have sex without love” perception. Both statements are true, anyway. I digress.)

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