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bad history empathy deficit enforced monogamy entitled babies incels men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny

“We’ve been cucked by Social Security,” incel laments

FDR: The only thing we have to fear is being cucked by Social Security

By David Futrelle

Well, here’s a new one, courtesy of some dude posting on the incel forum Truecels.org.

Weve been cucked by social security  Thread starterAnondump  Parents used to sell their daughters to the highest bidder.  But ever since social security became a thing they no longer need to.

It’s amazing that something so brief can be so wrong in so many different ways. I don’t even know where to begin with this one, so I won’t.

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Red R. Lion
Red R. Lion
1 year ago

@Voxpoptart

Just: words evolve, and not everyone notices at the same time.

This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, but I don’t remember “incel” ever being a positive (or neutral) term though.

But — and this part is also about me in the 1990s — it is possible to feel depressed, and even unpleasantly aggrieved, about being rejected a lot, without holding it against any specific woman.

Yes. Humans are social animals and of course it’s perfectly natural to feel depressed, frustrated, or even aggrieved when lonely or otherwise lacking wanted intimacy.

Incels should remember that when they get described as “entitled” it’s not because they’re lonely, sad, or even mad. They get called entitled because they are toxic or otherwise not good for a girl and they don’t care. That “screw you and what you need, I DESERVE it” attitude is their problem- not their hurt, not their negative feelings.

[OT note: damn I still suck at gravitar].

Voxpoptart
Voxpoptart
1 year ago

Hey, whoa. Not every guy who’s never had a partner and is depressed about it would be a bad boyfriend. My own girlfriend (who’s 32) has flat-out said that her 26-year-old self would happily have taken K. home for a ride, and she tried to fix him up with an age-appropriate friend of hers (who looked at a photo and said “I don’t want no skinny white guy”). He’s a decent friend to multiple women; he’d be a fine boyfriend. He hasn’t had the right combo of luck and self-presentation and self-awareness.

That happens to many people of all genders and orientations. It happened to me, and when I did get my first girlfriend I was alright — very much a fixer-upper, but a kind and funny one who was usually willing to be taught stuff. We’re still friends.

Again, to stay clear, K doesn’t hang out at incel forums. He just takes the word’s original (female-coined) definition literally, and feels it fits him. I’m working with him on that, and have shown him WHTM, but I don’t think his literalism is weird or inexplicable.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

He feels like his virginity is cruelly unfair and unusual, and yet only wants to date women conventionally hotter than him.

^This is what would make your friend a bad boyfriend.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Personally, I would be EXTREMELY leery of dating anyone who identified as an incel, even in the “no really I have no idea about the connotations of the word or the mass murderers or the celebrations of rape and murder that incels engage in, I’m just really sad about being a virgin” sense.

Not because I think that someone who is a virgin would automatically be a bad boyfriend. But because someone who considers said virginity to be a horrible injustice inflicted upon them to the point that it affects their very identity, is likely to consider any girlfriend of theirs to be a means to an end, something that will cure them of their undeserved affliction, and not as an individual person in her own right.

And I think that coming onto a thread that features an incel complaining that not enough women get forced into sexual slavery and deciding to whine about how it’s not faaaaair to the poor poor men who DON’T consider women chattel, no really, they just like the term incel for 100% innocent reasons, really illustrates the kinds of priorities that you hold.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
1 year ago

So, this is OT re the term incel, but it’s definitely a feminist issue:

I just read this interview with Dolph Lundgren on account of him reprising his role as evil Russian boxer Ivan Drago for the latest Rocky/Creed movie, and also being in Aquaman.

A number of years ago, Lundgren revealed in a radio show that his dad used to beat him when he was a kid, in particular if he didn’t ace every single test in school, since his dad had his entire career layed out for him (so that’s basically the background to him having straight A:s throughout school, going to MIT on a scholarship, only to drop out after a year and go into action movies instead). He hadn’t said anything while his dad was still alive, but went public about his childhood after his dad died.

In this recent interview he talked a bit more about how he went to therapy for the first time a few years ago, because his new girlfriend talked him into it. And he’s had this problem his entire adult life that he’d sometimes get panic attacks in the middle of the night, thinking that he was about to get beaten. The therapist told him that’s because he’s had PTSD his whole life from the abuse he suffered as a kid. So he talked in the interview about how it’s great that there’s more and more focus on violence against women, but we should also pay more attention to male victims of violence, and how you can need help, therapy, support etc even if you’re a man, being a man doesn’t mean you have to bottle it all up.

Like, this is a serious men’s issue. But all those manospherians David quotes, it’s not just that they don’t care about these issues, they actively work to make things worse with their contempt for weakness! Every man who’s somehow perceived weak is a pathetic “cuck”.

KG
KG
1 year ago

@Alan Robertshaw on 1933 Hipster cafe in Germany

Amusing, but to be pedantic, anachronistic. As Wikipedia says:

The National Socialist German Workers’ Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the Nazi Party, was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers’ Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; DAP), existed from 1919 to 1920.

The Nuremberg rallies were held from 1923 to 1938. 1933 is the date Hitler came to power. Anyone in Europe, let alone Germany, who didn’t know what “national socialism” was in 1933 was presumably a hermit!

Red R. Lion
Red R. Lion
1 year ago

@Voxpoptart

“Hey, whoa. Not every guy who’s never had a partner and is depressed about it would be a bad boyfriend.”

Not at all. But as I said, “entitlement” isn’t about being depressed about not having a partner. It’s only human to feel depressed, or even mad. As you said it happens to people of all genders and orientations. People only get called entitled when they stop caring about how they are effecting other people and start DEMANDING things with no regard to the other person’s needs or wishes.

As to K, keep in mind that we don’t know him personally.

Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
1 year ago

@Voxpoptart @heebee

You don’t need to point out that some men who find it difficult to meet women to date, or who even might mistakenly identify with the term incel for a while, are really okay guys. We know that.

The issue is that the vast majority of men (I’d say around 99pc) who identify as incels are completely unashamed entitled misogynists. We’re talking about them. Those incels; the majority of incels; the ones who would post celebrations all over the internet if someone walked into my workplace today and shot me and my young female colleagues through the head. We don’t need to say “Of course #notallmen….” in every post; that qualifier is understood.

You need to stop the whole “but not all of us!” thing. It obscures the issue we’re discussing. If 99pc of beetles are black and 1pc are white, I’m not going to say “but not all beetles!” every time I say how difficult it is to see beetles in the dark.

Pie
Pie
1 year ago

@voxpoptart

He just takes the word’s original (female-coined) definition literally

Curiously, Heebee also felt the need to point out that incel was apparently coined by a woman. I’m not sure that the origin of the word is at all relevant: what matters is how it is used now. Y’know, by a bunch of people who get all excited about murder, rape and slavery.

I’m working with him on that, and have shown him WHTM, but I don’t think his literalism is weird or inexplicable.

Wait, wait. You showed him this site? And the articles about incels? The ones where time and time again the are quotations from and links to page after page after page of self-declared incels celebrating rape and murder and wishing for a future where they can rape and murder at will and own sex slaves? And observed that the word ‘incel’ has entered the public consciousness as a result of actual real world spree killings? And after all that, he still thinks that it is ok to identify as an incel, and you don’t think this is weird and inexplicable?

What the jibbering fuck would it take to convince the two of you otherwise?

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

I am not going to be one to advocate for social Darwinism, but I am glad these people are not reproducing. I was reading an article over the weekend how controlling conservatives are with regard to the votes of their wives, and how many like to mail in their ballots so they could fill out their wives vote. One of the commenters even bragged about doing this to their children as well.

How about if you can’t stand another person having autonomy, then don’t fucking marry them or have children?

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
1 year ago

Yeah I’ve also read that the word ”incel” was coined by a woman blogger, who merely used it (about herself) to mean sad and lonely and without intimacy. But meaning is use. If enough people start using a word in a new way, that becomes the new meaning.

Red R. Lion
Red R. Lion
1 year ago

If 99pc of beetles are black and 1pc are white, I’m not going to say “but not all beetles!” every time I say how difficult it is to see beetles in the dark.

I know what this example trying to say, but IMO it misses it’s mark because it doesn’t sound like the beetles can choose whether to be white or black, while identifying as an incel is obviously a choice.

Vox, whether or not identifying as an incel is an honest mistake, knowing when it’s an honest mistake or not requires either a lot of time, or mindreading. You sound to me to be basically lamenting that women are not mindreaders capable of intuitively knowing whether red flags are real or not. And your friend K sounds like the kind of guy whom 20 or 30 years ago maybe would eventually form a relationship with a friend, but relationships beginning from friendships have been pretty well soured by a bunch of entitled dudebros whining about “the friendzone.” Just another way in which these assholes make the world worse for everybody, including men.

(Hell this thread started with an incel complaining that SS makes fathers economically secure enough that they don’t have to sell off their daughters, ffs. Something tells me that Anondumb is just self-aware enough to realize that no father would wish him upon his daughter without facing starvation, so #father’s rights, I guess?)

Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
1 year ago

Yep, language evolves.

Words don’t have a “correct” meaning. This is part of the problem with derogatory words – if a group is denigrated, any word used to describe that group will eventually be a used as a derogatory term. For example, the word “spastic” – originally a medical term, now a derogatory word. “Retarded” is another. Quite a few terms which are now horribly racist were originally invented as descriptors. Doesn’t make them any less racist now.

Words mean what you intend them to mean. It doesn’t matter who invented the word “incel” or what it meant then. Now it means “violent misogynist who thinks women owe him sex” and, if you are calling yourself an incel, that’s what you’re saying you are whether you like it or not.

If you don’t want people to think that’s what you are, you need to call yourself something else. Go around saying “I’m gay!” and people will assume you mean “homosexual” rather than “happy and sprightly” because that’s what it means now. If you say “but I meant I was happy, because that’s the original meaning and therefore the correct one” you will sound like an asshole and no-one will understand what you mean.

Sometimes you just have to accept the change.

Red R. Lion
Red R. Lion
1 year ago

“I was reading an article over the weekend how controlling conservatives are with regard to the votes of their wives, and how many like to mail in their ballots so they could fill out their wives vote. One of the commenters even bragged about doing this to their children as well.”

O_O

I’m starting to see why conservatives are so worried about “voter fraud”. 😦

Time to fix the voting process. Let’s be careful not to lose faith in our system though.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

He just takes the word’s original (female-coined) definition literally, and feels it fits him.

Did you know that “gay” originally meant happy?

But if I go around telling people that I’m super gay, they’re going to think that I’m telling them I’m really into ladies, not that I’m just having a really great day.

Maybe for me, the obscure and archaic definition of the word really expresses how happy I am. But that’s not what everyone else is going to think, because the original definition has been changed to something that is widely understood to mean something else. If I’m fine with everyone thinking I’m gay as in the sexual orientation, then I’m free to keep telling people that, of course. But I’d be a an idiot to expect them to interpret my labeling in the archaic sense of the word.

TL;DR if your buddy wants to identify as an incel and use the word to mean something completely different from what it’s understood to mean, then he’s free to do so. But he’d better expect people to react with “oh jeez like that spree killer Elliott Roger? Um, I just realized I have a pressing appointment to get to, gotta go, bye!”

Katamount
Katamount
1 year ago

I actually think we’re getting closer to what these guys actually want when they’re straight-up taking aim at New Deal policies like typical conservatives.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
1 year ago

I actually think we’re getting closer to what these guys actually want when they’re straight-up taking aim at New Deal policies like typical conservatives.

That’s a sobering thought. I think WWTH mentioned before that employers knew an increase in minimum wage would largely benefit everyone, but wanted social hierarchies because they explicitly wanted to exert control.

I can somehow see that being the endgame to all these conservative policies.

Yutolia the Green Hash Thing
Yutolia the Green Hash Thing
1 year ago

Re: husbands controlling their wives’ votes

Actually, my first thought when I first heard of mail-in ballots was something similar to what that article says.

Trigger Warning
Allusions to domestic violence

Right after Clinton was first elected president I went to visit my grandmother in Colorado Springs. We went to some party and a friend of hers was incredibly excited. Why? Because her abusive husband had passed away a year and a half before and this was the first time in her life that she had ever been allowed vote. While I definitely like the idea of mail-in ballots, I am reminded of this story every time I hear anything about voting, and it always makes me worried.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
1 year ago

OT: So the guy who killed Heather Heyer is going to plead that driving a car into a crowd of protesters was self-defence.

I suppose it’s at least one step better than claiming “justifiable homicide.”

Cat Mara
Cat Mara
1 year ago

@Dvärghundspossen:

Yeah I’ve also read that the word ”incel” was coined by a woman blogger, who merely used it (about herself) to mean sad and lonely and without intimacy.

Yes, I’ve read this too: this was the article I heard it in:

https://www.elle.com/culture/news/a34512/woman-who-started-incel-movement/

Wow, to be living in that parallel universe where that “incel” movement took off, huh?

BritterSweet
1 year ago

Hey, whoa. Not every guy who’s never had a partner and is depressed about it would be a bad boyfriend.

But every guy who makes a conversation on bigotry/slavery/abuse/etc. all about his dating woes sounds like someone who values their own ego over other people’s distress. And that’s not a very good trait in a romantic partner if you ask me.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
1 year ago

@Voxpoptart

re “I don’t want no skinny white guy”

For a single woman who isn’t white, that is a pretty reasonable statement. Especially given what you’ve already said about the guy. K’s variety of brokenness tends to hide resentment underneath – with the indoctrination white men get, it’s hard to avoid.

Now multiply that x100 if K starts dating a woman of color, with him probably having an implicit belief that she should act as his live-in therapist, servant, and sexual entertainer. It could get very toxic and dangerous for her, and even if not it sounds like serving K’s interests much more than hers. (Sorry if that’s the wrong impression I have, but that’s what I get at a glance.) Pity dating for a random lonely guy is not something most self-assured adult women will waste time on, and TBH just the fact that I was offered to be set up like that would give me some red flags.

Dalillama
Dalillama
1 year ago

@Red R Lion

Time to fix the voting process. Let’s be careful not to lose faith in our system though.

Whyever not? It’s fundamentally broken. Or rather, it’s fundamentally designed to ensure that democracy doesn’t actually happen and that rich white men remain in charge.

@Diego Duarte

I can somehow see that being the endgame to all these conservative policies.

Of course it is. Conservatism is about conserving existing hierarchies, always has been, always will be.

Aaron
Aaron
1 year ago

So, are you (and they) aware that “incel” is a contraction of “involuntarily celibate”? The implication being, someone else is unreasonably depriving them of the sex they should be getting? That’s entitlement right there. The clue is in the name.

I don’t agree with this. “Involuntary” does not necessarily imply any deliberate withholding at all. It simply means that one is in a situation that they would not be in if they had the option.

I do agree that, at this point, the word has taken on such enormous cultural baggage that it’s beyond saving – much like (say) the phrase “Make America Great Again.” There’s nothing for it at this point but to surrender it to the crazy folks. But I’m not on board with this idea that there’s entitlement embedded in the word itself. It depends on how it is deployed.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

There’s nothing for it at this point but to surrender it to the crazy folks.

Please abide by the comments policy and don’t use “crazy” talk.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

I don’t agree with this. “Involuntary” does not necessarily imply any deliberate withholding at all. It simply means that one is in a situation that they would not be in if they had the option.

“Involuntary” implies that it’s something done to you and against your will. No one is forcing these guys to not have sex. It’s just circumstances. But their very name implies it’s coerced.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
1 year ago

“Involuntary” implies that it’s something done to you and against your will.

Not really, though, since you can talk about “involuntary reflexes” for instance, and that just means it’s reflexes you can’t control.

I agree with the rest that it’s fucked-up to use the word “incel” now considering what it means now (because meaning is use and all that), but you can’t argue based on the meaning of the constituent words alone that even the very first person to use it must have had some sinister designs.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
1 year ago

But it’s redundant. We don’t say “inpoor” or “insick” because it’s assumed that most people in those circumstances didn’t choose them. Why should celibacy get singled out with a special prefix, if not to underscore the suffering and make the world feel extra guilty?

And from “the world should feel guilty”, it’s only a small leap to “the world owes me restitution”.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
1 year ago

Because you can be voluntarily celibat, of course, for a variety of reasons.

Grumpy Old Man
Grumpy Old Man
1 year ago

Actually, my first thought when I first heard of mail-in ballots was something similar to what that article says.

I live in Seattle WA; we are entirely ‘vote by mail’. We have a paper trail if there is any question – can that be said by the electronic voting in person?

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
1 year ago

We don’t say “inpoor” or “insick” because it’s assumed that most people in those circumstances didn’t choose them.

AFAIK, the word celibacy originally meant by definition deliberate refusal of marriage (and perhaps by implication sex), to distinguish from people who planned or just hoped to marry some day. In this sense, involuntary celibacy is a contradiction in terms.

No that I’m arguing from etymology, but it does seem a bit backwards even in modern context.

Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
1 year ago

I do find “involuntary” to be a troublesome concept when applied to sex.

I understand what the thinking is – some people (like monks) volunteer to give up sex, and the “involuntary” is (or was originally) intended to distinguish people who wanted to have sex and found it difficult from groups like that.

But the problem is it does imply that an outside force of some kind is denying sex to people who would otherwise get to have it, and that’s not the case. Most people who have trouble dating have trouble because of internal factors like lack of confidence or bad social skills. Blaming outside forces/other people is easier, because one does not want to have to face the upsetting fact that one’s own behaviour needs changing (I know this from sad personal experience) so a term which places the blame squarely on external factors doesn’t help; it also becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, because once you have classed yourself as “involuntarily celibate” it’s going to be that much harder to get over that barrier. It’s just unhelpful. Even in the original context.

It would probably be more appropriate to use a term like, I don’t know, “sexually challenged” (although not actually that, because it sounds weird)

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
1 year ago

The involuntary part is never really true. Every time, they seem to be not incapable of finding a partner, but incapable of finding a conventionally attractive partner. This is true of every sad boner whiner. Not just the ones who call themselves incels.

Everyone has the right to their preferences and can be as picky as they like. But it’s a choice. Not something to feel oppressed about. If you’re stuck on only pining for the pretty and popular type, that’s your own fault.

Which brings me to the other big problem with even the supposedly non-misogynistic incels. They completely objectify women. They want arm candy to give them status and make them feel good about themselves. You never see them talking about wanting a partner to share their lives with and who has common interests and values. Even when they talk about a specific crush who rejected them, you never hear about who they are as a person and why the incel desires them beyond looks. Never do they seem to understand that we’re real people. Women to them are just meant to function as a balm for their troubled souls.

Of course they have no luck dating. And not due to looks.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

Yeah, for me celibacy is a word that implies a voluntary choice, and strapping “involuntary” to it when we already have other words for not being sexually active is weird, at the very least.

It’s like saying “involuntary vegetarian”, instead of having food sensitivities. It’s something that signifies a sense of victimization, instead of just an undesirable condition. Which is problematic when applied to sexual activity, where all parties involved should be consenting.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
1 year ago

Look, all I’m saying is… if you read the interview linked above with Alana, the woman who started the first “involuntary celibate” website, she doesn’t seem like a bad person at all. She had this period in her life when she was sad and lonely and lacked intimacy, and wanted a website where other people in the same situation could talk. Eventually she did find people to date and left the website to some other person she didn’t really know, and the rest is history.

Did she chose the best words ever to describe her situation? Maybe not. Maybe it would have been slightly more accurate if she’d called the website “site for sexually challenged people” or whatever. Did she chose words that in themselves are evil and imply all kinds of entitled and rapey shit? I just can’t see that! Seems to me that people in this thread try hard to hang quite heavy arguments on a flimsy peg of etymology that can’t really support their weight.

Also, I think it’s pretty pointless to argue that the words are evil in themselves. It’s perfectly sufficient to note that the incel movement now is horrible, and that the term therefore, now, is not something people should use about themselves.

Possibly, though, we’ll simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I wouldn’t say that the words are inherently evil- no words are inherently evil, they’re just noises and symbols. It is the context and the history of the words that makes the words harmful.

The term as it was coined has some contextual elements that are problematic, but so do plenty of other terms. It doesn’t automatically guarantee that the movement was going to go down a dark path. (There are, after all, many awful movements that specifically choose 100% innocent, positive sounding terms to describe themselves, e.g. Pro-life.)

However, given the amount if aggrieved entitlement that is festering in our society regarding women’s sexual agency, I do think it was inevitable that the term would be co-opted by bitter, hateful assholes. Is that the fault of the woman who made the term? No. But at this point the term can no longer be argued to be an innocent one.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

It’s like saying “involuntary vegetarian”, instead of having food sensitivities

I just imagined calling myself “involuntarily gluten free” and it just feels wrong. I *could* have a nice, crispy wheat baguette if I wanted. It would make me very sick, and over time could kill me, so I choose not to. That’s a voluntary action I take. Just like when I opted not to even reply to people with red flags on dating sites. Yeah, there’s an extra layer of victimhood there. It’s gross.

@Dvärghundspossen
I’m not saying the woman who coined the term is bad or evil or whatever. But at the time she was focusing on this as a part of her identity, she was being at least a little entitled. She obviously realized her thought patterns were toxic and pulled herself out of it. Anyone could potentially do the same. But people currently claiming the title are currently being toxic and gross. They could change. But they’re currently choosing not to.

Freemage
Freemage
1 year ago

Re: Notallincels

There is, at any given time, an unknown percentage of individuals who are circling the drain in a diminishing spiral, rather than diving headlong into it. These individuals are still at the point where, in theory, intervention is possible. They got drawn into a forum where they thought they’d commiserate about datelessness (akin to the woman who created the term’s intent), and instead are now being radicalized by a toxic community, but they haven’t given over their whole identity to it, yet. So, sure, such individuals exist. But they are perpetually in danger of becoming a danger–maybe physical, maybe just social–to those around them, and it’s not fair to expect people to remain in a situation like that.

Heebee, Voxpoptart: If your friends are actual in such a spiral, and you want them to be happier (because you care for your friends’ mental and/or spiritual health), then it’s your duty to do everything you can, up to and including laying down ultimatums if necessary, to pull them out of that spiral–the same as you might have to with a friend who was poisoning their body with addictive drugs or other self-destructive behavior, or slowly being absorbed into a cult (and seriously, that’s not a bad explanation of inceldom). And you’re the only ones in a position to determine, as best you can, which approaches to intervention are going to most effective for those individuals at their current non-radicalized state. But it’s not the responsibility of anyone else here to acknowledge their nice-guyness while they’re still actively identifying as part of a hate movement, even if they, themselves, don’t seem to be overtly hateful right now.

(OTOH, you COULD use this community as a resource for that intervention. We’ve got people who’ve been at low points in their lives, or who’ve known folks there, where the step to misogyny wouldn’t have been unthinkable. We know the mindset, and have at least some insight into what it takes to break out of it. If you come explicitly looking for help of this nature, asking for arguments and actions you might use to get your friends into a better place, you’ll find a wealth of experience to tap. Don’t try to explain your friends’ complaints–believe me, we already understand them.)

heebee
heebee
1 year ago

Theres always going to be things we can do and things we cant do. No one can have everything, I think what incels (not just incels most people tbh) lack is a sense of perspective. An appreciation of what you DO have, what you CAN do, and your strengths.

Its human nature to be obssesed about what you dont/cant have rather than focus and be thankful for what you DO have.

Im willing to bet incels have (or had before they turned so toxic) a lot going for them in their lives which they just choosed to ignore.

One incel I knew was a 26 year old virgin but amazing at chess. Kicked my ass. But he didnt even play chess often! He just spent his time on these toxic self pitying forums.
Tip to him : Less romance talk more DAMN CHESS. YOUR GOOD AT IT, OWN IT for god sake

Aaron
Aaron
1 year ago

“Involuntary” implies that it’s something done to you and against your will. No one is forcing these guys to not have sex. It’s just circumstances. But their very name implies it’s coerced.

First of all, at its most basic “involuntary” simply means “out of your control.” I will, however, agree that “involuntary celibate” does connote dissatisfaction with a persistent situation.

But this doesn’t imply that the situation is deliberately imposed. You say that it’s just “circumstances,” but one could argue that it is these circumstances that are keeping the “incel” from having sex. That’s not really entitlement; it’s an accurate description of the situation.

That being said, even if we could hypothetically strip the term from all its baggage, I don’t think it’s a particularly good foundation for a healthy community, or a good label to build one’s identity around. And that’s because it’s inherently negative: a description of something that you don’t like about yourself, something that you wish you could change and that probably causes you pain and shame. And stewing on what you hate about yourself can lead to an unattractive persecution complex, which itself can lead to vicious circle of ever-increasing anger, resentment, and self-loathing. Which is, in my opinion, more or less how the modern incel movement formed.

Ultimately, that’s my problem with the word itself, not that it contains some kind of embedded “entitlement.”

heebee
heebee
1 year ago

100000% Agreed Aaron.

However, most incels do feel entitled

WHY?

Because of this “someone for everyone” saying that gets brandies around. A pot for every hole. Society promising men that romantic success “sex, dates marraige, relationship whatever”, is a fixed point on their timeline (someone for everyone …right!). And when it doesnt happen (or no signs are presenting that it could happen), those men get bitter, angry, frustrated and feel like theyve not been given something they are owed (and have been told it is an inevitablility)

Jane Done
Jane Done
1 year ago

Trigger warning: self-harm, suicide

@Aaron: What I find odd is how the incel community has become so outwardly focused in hatred and violence, yet self-harm “communities”, specifically the ones that encourage harming as opposed to support communities, or any number of online mental/physical/chronic condition groups, chatrooms, etc that end up spiraling into hopeless ideation, never end up being the source of the next serial killer. I mean, most incels are not suffering from any actual daily physical pain or impairment, emotionally traumatic past or clinical condition, yet they lash out at the world as if their experiences are worse than any other human being on the planet.

Well, that is if ‘odd’ is a synonym for ‘mindblowing’ and ‘horrifying’ and also ‘repulsive’.

Aaron
Aaron
1 year ago

What I find odd is how the incel community has become so outwardly focused in hatred and violence, yet self-harm “communities”, specifically the ones that encourage harming as opposed to support communities, or any number of online mental/physical/chronic condition groups, chatrooms, etc that end up spiraling into hopeless ideation, never end up being the source of the next serial killer.

I think there are various reasons for this, a big one being that incel emerged out of the manosphere, which is characterized by outward hatefulness toward women, male lackeys, etc. The incels just take that tendency and ramp it way up, because their bitterness is more profound. (And I get it – people tend to be more emotionally volatile when it comes to personal woes, and incels think in very personal terms.)

But I would also argue that incel – whatever else it is – is itself self-harm, and not in an abstract “hatred is like drinking poison” sort of way. When they’re not talking about how disgusting women are, they’re talking about how disgusting they are. They refer to themselves explicitly as subhuman. Their usernames are references to their own physical repulsiveness. They post “rate me” threads and spend their time tearing each other down. It’s psychological self-harm, not really so different from cutting yourself. I actually find the incel dynamic to be much more comprehensible than some of their extremist cousins, like the MGTOWs and their ilk. But maybe that’s my own bias.

kupo
kupo
1 year ago

If you got trapped in a well, would you call it involuntary confinement? I’m not talking about the dictionary definition, but of how we use the word. In this context, it implies something being done against your will. And the thing being done against one’s will is…not consenting to sexual intercourse. And if you disagree that’s what incel means, just spend five fucking minutes there.

But hey, it’s great you’re arguing for a group of people who want me dead because a very, very small portion of them only hate the fact I have a choice in whom I fuck, rather than full on cheering for murder of people like me.

Jane Done
Jane Done
1 year ago

@Aaron: That’s the shocking part though, no other self-harm group on the planet has vomited out so many mass murderers, at least that I know of, and most definitely not in so short a timespan.

Catalpa
Catalpa
1 year ago

I don’t have any hard evidence of this, but personally I suspect that the reason why incels produce so many spree killers is precisely because they DO have it easy. Men are given essentially a free pass when it comes to sexual entitlement, and people fall over themselves to defend the poor, unfortunate dudes who are just so, so lonely. Even here, where the atrocities of the incels are laid out clearly for all to see, we have folks coming out of the woodwork to talk about how their “friend” definitely isn’t saying anything dangerous or displaying any warning signs! No, no, not at all. Maybe a smidge of entitlement, but nothing to be concerned about. The most important thing to worry about is that random people on the internet might judge ALL incels harshly, which is, like, totally unfair. It’s critical to make random people on the internet know that #notallincels are dangerous, and that definitely no one they know in their REAL life could possibly be a threat to any woman.

For people who are unaware of the depths of how shitty the incels are, I bet that the sympathy for the incel-inclined is even higher.

It makes it really easy for the incels to engage in stochastic terrorism, because all their ranting and hatefulness and warning signs are handwaved away to be just totally normal harmless masculine behaviours. They’re just frustrated! The ones inclined to actually rape and murder are camoflagued by and egged on by the ones that aren’t at that point (yet), and no consequences for the behaviour are faced until after another killing spree happens, and then only to that one incel.

Bluecat
Bluecat
1 year ago

Well, if anondump blames social security for his not being able to buy – or at least rent – women, he might consider moving to the UK, where the new social security system of Universal Credit has in fact driven women into selling sex to feed their families.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/universal-credit-women-sex-work-prostitution-frank-field-esther-mcvey-a8584896.html