UPDATED: 11/8/18, 1 PM CST
By David Futrelle
Yet another mass shooting, this one at the Borderline Bar and Grill in Thousand Oaks, California. The shooter killed 12 people, including a sheriff’s sergeant.
The shooter, who reportedly took his own life, has been identified as 28-year-old former marine Ian David Long, who used a pistol with an illegal extended magazine and smoke bomb in the attack. Though right-wingers last night glommed onto reports from a couple of eyewitnesses who said they thought the shooter looked Middle Eastern, he was white. We don’t know anything about his possible motive yet.
Please post any reliable information you run across in the thread below.
First, to me, discussing motive is fascinating, trying, with minimal information, to figure it out is like a game. I’m as susceptible to this category error as anyone. Because it is not a game. It is real people who, for what ever reason, have done something horrible and hurt other people. Not a game.
So I am trying to use a little discipline here, because in reality, their motive is completely irrelevant. These guys that go somewhere and kill a bunch of random people and then kill themselves will get my sympathy when they get it right, and do it in the opposite order. One thing I think would help is if the news refused to tell the general public his name. There is no need for us to know his name. Too many of these guys want to be remembered, even if it’s for doing something horrible. If we keep their names limited to those who actually need to know, that will take that motive away.
Second, Marcelinethevampyqueen, welcome. Anyone is welcome to comment here. Unless they are assholes. You don’t seem like an asshole.
@Marcelinethevampyqueen
Welcome to the Blog. Sorry that the greeting came at not a great moment in US history.
Not sure I like PTSD being used as an explanation. My understanding is that PTSD sufferers are not more likely to go on a killing spree. They are more likely than non-sufferers to self-harm, including suicide, but they tend not to take anyone with them.
@Jo, Aaron, Weird Eddie
See, the difference is that there is not an established pattern of Muslims going on shooting sprees in the U.S., whereas there is an established pattern of incels/fascists doing so. And the domestic violence thing is near enough universal in mass shooters as to barely qualify as an assumption. (Incidentally, police were called to the house he shared with his mother over a family disturbance a few months ago. But, yanno, we’re totally unjustified in guessing that he was the same kinda shithead as all the other mass shooters.)
@Dalillama
The worst part about all of this is that law enforcement at large don’t even consider the domestic violence as a cause for concern for the endless parade of white shooters.
At a country music club…I wonder who the NRA, rural conservatives, Justin Moore, etc. are going to try and square all of this in their minds.
@Ooglyboggles:
Can’t help wondering what the incidence of DV is among cops.
Liquidmidnight: At this point I wouldn’t put some kind of Manchurian Candidate-style programmed assassin theory past them.
@Moggie
Probably a bit a more than most people would like to hear.
@Moggie: reliable, consistent data on police-officer-committed crimes is non-existant, and intentionally so. The only nationwide report, itself merely a compilation of news stories and voluntary responses from a scattering of police stations (the overwhelming majority did not respond), stated that police officers commit sex crimes at the same rate as the populace. Crimes of violence are significantly higher, I believe DV was somewhere in the middle
Which is terrifying, considering their godlike immunity from the law and unlimited power.
Needless to say, said watchdog study and website went down due to lack of resources.
@Moggie
As Jane Done notes, it’s hard to get solid data, but such studies as have been done indicate that cops are 2-4 times more likely to be domestic abusers than the general population. It is entirely reasonable to suspect that the real figure is notably higher.
I find that quite disturbing.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the shooter was a Trumpster who’s P.Oed by yesterday’s elections (concerning the House) and the fact that it’s the beginning of the end of the whole Alt-Reich horror.
The Parkland Kids and others have been working hard for strong gun regulations, the NRA has been boycotted by a number of business partners and has been losing money, the Democrats won the House, a couple of Democratic “losses” in Florida & Georgia are not “done deals” yet (there are recounts and lawsuits) and there might still be a win for Gillum (who has reversed his previous concession) and Abrams….
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/stacey-abrams-files-lawsuit-demanding-all-military-and-absentee-ballots-be-counted.html
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/andrew-gillum-unconcedes-as-florida-governor-race-heads-for-recount.html
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/republicans-are-scared-in-florida-as-sean-hannity-calls-recount-an-illegal-democrat-plot.html
….Beto will still be a big political star despite not beating Cruz and Trump and Co. are up a creek.
A record number of women have been elected for Congress and stuff….
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/07/women-candidates-tired-of-waiting-make-record-gains-in-u-s-congress.html
….Mr. “Grab-Them-By-The-Pussy” will LOATHE THIS!
Trump tried some last-ditch effort to get Mueller off his back (Firing Sessions and replacing with Whitaker) but the NEW House Majority and the American people are gonna go “Nice, try!” ASAP….
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/adam-schiff-trump-accountable.html
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/democrats-bill-protect-mueller.html
* https://www.politicususa.com/2018/11/08/protect-mueller-protest.html
Anyhoo; Monsters like this mass-shooter have been blabbin’ about “using 2nd Amendment options” in the face of certain defeat. This was expected.
My heart goes out to the victims, survivors and their families. This ridiculous. On a higher note, we’re closer to the goal of better gun laws and such and a Democratic House will eventually lead to a Democratic Senate….
* https://www.wonkette.com/chin-up-f-ckers
….This article explains how things are likely to get much better. KEEP ON PLUGGIN’ AWAY, PROGRESSIVES! KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE!
….BUT WE THE PEOPLE WILL NOT BE COWED! WE’RE ON A ROLL!
PTSD is a thing, yes, however, this is not the actions of someone in the middle of a flashback who thinks they’re defending themselves in a war zone. This appears to be far more planned and was premeditated.
Oh look, he HAD a history of sexual violence: https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/11/08/thousand-oaks-gunman-high-school-coach-assault/
Yeah, I’m not buying the PTSD angle for a second. If he’d simply freaked out in the middle of the club, pulled a gun, and started shooting people, then I’d find it plausible that his having PTSD was a factor in the shooting. This guy planned this. He walked in there intending to murder a bunch of people. That’s not a PTSD reaction.
I have PTSD. I’ve had violent reactions exactly twice in the last 15-20 years, and both times were in immediate response to triggers. If I’d had a gun at hand in those moments, I probably would have shot someone, but there would have been no planning involved. That’s not how PTSD works. When you’re triggered, you react, then you feel like you’re going to shake apart for a while, then you get depressed. You don’t start planning massacres.
@Dalillama
I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood what I (and others) wrote. We’re not objecting to the speculation about the killer’s motive and background on the grounds that there’s no existing pattern. In fact, I literally wrote ‘it’s already clear what the pattern is’ and referred to domestic violence in the comment you’re replying to.
I don’t find the public guesses you and others are making objectionable because they’re unlikely, I find them objectional because speculating within hours of a horrific tragedy in the hope that the guesses will be correct is wrong no matter who does it and how likely they are to be correct.
We are not better than the right because we happened to back the right team, we are better than the right because we don’t behave like them.
And it’s not as if there’s nothing to talk about if we don’t speculate about motive. Regardless of motive, this killing happened because the USA has insane gun laws.
And, to repeat myself, once the facts start coming out, let’s absolutely draw those lines. Just can we not kick off with ‘bet he’s an incel’ or ‘bet he’s Pro Trump’ until that point?
Im sorry for the assumptions I made. I should wait until I have all the facts otherwise the discourse can get confusing and muddied.
With that said I don’t like the idea of this being attributed to PTSD either. As someone with PTSD (thankfully it’s improving and my life is no longer ruled by it) I only ever inflicted violence upon myself. I realize it’s dofferent for every person but from what I’ve read a sufferer is more likely to have violence committed to them than commit violence. I’m not trying to be argumentative so I hope that this doesn’t come across as such.
Whatever the motivation I hope that there is support and help for victims and their families. I’m very sorry that this is happening again, it’s terrofying.
Thank you for your welcome ?
In the wake of the Las Vegas shooting (just over a year ago and already blurring into the distance: there have been so many since) Fox News pundits were spinning it as someone who “didn’t have god in his life” (there was no evidence the shooter was that, but one of his relatives had disagreed with him over religion and thought so) had deliberately targeted a music event where “many of those present were likely to be Christian” – which again was evidence free: it wasn’t a concert of “Christian rock”. So it’ll probably be this.
Aaaaaand – just checking these facts I see from Wiki that some of the survivors of Las Vegas were in the Borderline Bar…
So: crap.
I think I agree with the point about Sandy Hook: if the US polity can get over that one without changing stuff (and gun sales *increased*) it can get over anything.
I think, though I may be mistaken, that it was after Sandy Hook that the “false flag” stuff really went mainstream. So much so that now almost any attack of any kind gets called “false flag” instantly.
This probably helps legislators and some voters swallow the fact that not enough of them care enough about murdered children to do anything.
@Skiriki
Oh, look. Yet another cry of “we wouldn’t want this to ruin his future” made to the victim. Fucking perfect.
Humanity, we need to start letting garbage like this ruin their own futures, the sooner the better.
@ Marcelinethevampyqueen; all:
Apologies, I was out of line. In calling someone (Marcelinethevampyqueen) on making assumptions without adequate evidence, I did the same. I will try not to do that again.
Marcelinethevampyqueen, you are correct, PTSD does result in self-harm far more often than it results in harm to others. It could justifiably be called a national health crisis in its own right.
PTSD was mentioned in connection with the police being called to the shooter’s residence. Apparently one of the things the police reported after their doorstep psychiatric evaluation of the shooter was that he might be suffering from PTSD.
In related news, CNN:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/health/nra-tweet-doctors-react/index.html
N O
R ESPONSIBILITY
A T ALL
hmmmmm… there’s a t-shirt in there….
In response to that “doctors should stay in their lane” bullshit, one doctor’s response deserves repeating far and wide: “My lane is making sure people don’t die, and you’re in the way”.
That track coach is a friend of a friend. She is very shaken up, as the news story shows. My friend’s husband said that five of his university’s students were in the bar, but they all escaped unharmed. Now the Hill and Woolsey fires are ravaging the area, and my friends are packed and ready to evacuate. I feel helpless.
@Moggie, Jane Done, Dalillama:
I remember hearing about at least one case in the U.S. where a proposed law that would restrict people with domestic violence convictions from owning and using firearms was actively opposed by the police department because it would remove firearms from a significant percentage of their officers.
So, yeah.