It’s PLEDGE DRIVE time again! WHTM is now ad free and entirely dependent on folks like you for its continued existence. If you’ve donated already, THANKS! If you haven’t, and you can afford it, please DONATE HERE NOW! Thanks again!
By David Futrelle
Sullen teenagers have been yelling “I didn’t ask to be born” at their parents for, well, probably for millennia now. But leave it to the “involuntary celibates” of Incels.me to come up with a new twist on this ancient theme. In a recent post on the Incel,me forums — highlighted by the excellent Just Incel Things Twitter account — one bitter young man made this dramatic announcement:
Setting aside the fact that genetics is a complicated thing — conventionally attractive parents can have ugly kids and vice versa — one has to wonder how exactly Mr. Wizardcel managed to apportion the blame for his alleged bad looks between his parents — each of whom contributed equally to his genetic makeup.
Is his mother notably uglier than his dad, or does he just think she’s somehow more responsible for his looks because he lived in her womb? Or maybe his father is the ugly one — and Mr. Wizardcel blames her for marrying him? (Men’s Rights Activists and other reactionaries have made similar arguments blaming the mothers of violent men for existence of male violence in the world.) These guys are ingenious at figuring out ways to blame women for things over which they have no control.
So how did other incels react to Wizardcel’s announcement? Several called him out for taking out his frustrations with life on his mother and her genes. But others agreed with him wholeheartedly — and some went on to suggest that his existence was even more meaningless than he already assumed.
“There is no meaning of an incels existence,” wrote someone called Justshavebruh, because life is defined by “the ability to procreate and we’re not able to. We are not even alive per definition.”
Someone called Platypus took this weird evo-psych “argument” and ran with it, arguing that
for a biological being to fully express its life, it must make full use of its entire array of biological features. The less features you use, the closer to death you are. It’s self-evident looking at how old people become less and less physically able, until they die.
Not being able to procreate, is a deathlike existence.
Justshavebruh responded by declaring that
A virus is more alive than an incel. We also need an host to procreate. But we simply are not able to. Which means:
omae wa mou shindeiru
NANI?!
Just a word of advice, fellas: If you think of yourself as a virus (or something worse) and women as “hosts,” well, you aren’t going to get a lot of dates. And you shouldn’t get a lot of dates. Or any.
(That last little bit in the quote is a reference to an anime; according to Urban Dictionary the phrase “omae wa mou shindeiru” roughly translates to “you are already dead.”)
I don’t know what more to say to this line of argument than this:
I’ve heard people argue, in all seriousness, that we should be willing to overlook the violent misogyny that permeates incel culture because, well, that’s just a form of male bonding, and these communities provide support for depressed young men.
But that’s wrong, in every respect. We can’t dismiss the violent misogyny; not only is it awful and dangerous in itself, but, as the discussion above about viruses and hosts makes pretty clear, it’s also inextricably linked to the incels’ particular brand of self-hatred.
Incel communities like Incels.me aren’t “support groups.” They’re “kick-out-the-supports” groups. They lead already angry and depressed men to hate their lives even more — and to blame women for everything they think is wrong with them. This isn’t just a bunch of angry young men venting on the internet. Because nothing gets vented; the pressure just builds and builds. These communities are incubating future Elliot Rodgers and Alec Minassians.
As absurd as incel discussions often look — with their cracked anti-logic, their memes and jokes and anime references — this is what radicalization looks like, and it’s happening every hour of every day on the online venues where incels congregate.
On a macro level, I believe the best way to combat incels is to fight against toxic masculinity and against kyriarchy. It might not be possible to change a dyed-in-the-wool incel, but we can stop new ones from being made.
As I’ve mentioned before, I occasionally drop by the Peterson subReddit to see what they’re up (or down) to. There’s a definite theme of ‘to be a man you *must* reproduce’, often mingled with a sick terror at the fate of raising another man’s offspring.
I know for a fact that my mother smoked and drank through all seven pregnancies. I might have been a little taller and healthier had she not, but resenting her because of it never occurred to me. I worked on my personality to compensate, and it turned out acceptably.
And referring to your own mother as a ‘foid’ is some poop’t up squak, as Jhonen Vasquez would put it.
Vakyrie and Meercat- keep in mind that incel reasoning is rather twisty-
Having an eating disorder wouldn’t repulse most people.
But in a perpetual incel’s mind, being severely underweight or overweight are things that would make them hidious- Remember how obsessed we are with every feature that puts them in the unfuckable zone, and how disgusted they react to fe azone ( or whatever the days term is) who do not conform to social,y accepted standards of beauty- that’s how they think of themselves- and therefore give them, as I saud, something other than their personality to blame their social failures on.
Andy yes, I realize that one can have an eating disorder without being particularly big or, conversely fatless- I was being a bit flippant about that in order to try to come up with an (apparently lame) quip.
On the other hand, there is no shortage of blogs and YouTube channels that encourage young men to extremely unhealthy first to lose mire dat than can sustain a human body. The precept is that if a guy not look like an anatomy chart- has too much body fat.
I have more thoughts But right now, I’m mesmerized listening g to a sociopath speak about charges of sexual abuse as if he were a politician making a speech about taxes. His daughter says he should pray “for the woman” wrong, she should pray for herself- “the woman” knows better than to be around creeps now.
Is he going to describe how much he harrangued Monica lewinsky to get her to tell him how many times a man, charged only if lying under oath, had cum in her mouth?
Will he describe his thinking when he wrote down that he was part of a club who had sex with a teenaged girl in his class and write it down in a yearbook- a document people tend to keep for life?
Yeah, I went to a Jesuit prep school. Predatory jocks were everywhere. Now he’s trying to make it sound like he went to semenary school.
@Hexum
A simple ‘my b’ woulda sufficed
So you intentionally said something harmful about people with eating disorders in an attempt to be witty. Wit doesn’t excuse you from microaggressions. It’s the primary form of them.
Also, comments policy, please.
This reminds me of an extreme philosophical position called antinatalism that holds that the evolution of consciousness was a net evil because it means that humans are uniquely aware of their own mortality compared to other animals; and that the only moral response to this condition is the voluntary extinction of the species rather than propagate the suffering into future generations. The leading proponent of the antnatalist position was the Norwegian philosopher Peter Wessel Zappfe who, contrary to what you might expect apparently, was quite a pleasant man who lived to a ripe old age. Even he didn’t believe in immediately precipitating oneself off the nearest tall building, after all, just (!) that the human race should allow itself to die out through natural attrition. He believed in taking what joy one could get from one’s life & choose not to have children in accordance with his philosophical position.
Now, when your (i.e., incels’) outlook is actually more bleak than those who believe that the extinction of the entire human race is a good thing, that should be a red flag right there…
Kiupo i did not say anything “bad” about people with eating disorders. please reread what i wrote- that it is the incels themselves who would think it bad to be underweight or overweight .
this is just a fact. that is what and how they think
ps my bad that it came off the way you read it
Not an apology, but super condescending. Negative points.
I wasn’t advocating literal violence, mostly. And he isn’t a child, he’s an adult who was verbally and emotionally abusing his mother because he has an extremely fucked up belief system.
I’m well aware of the negative impacts of physical “discipline” on children & have been for decades. I’ve been a member of a gentle discipline forum since my eldest was a baby.
@Skylalalalalalala
Please read the comments policy section titled, “No threats or violent comments”
I call bullshit on the Incel’s obsession with “reproduction”. They just want to get laid and know that sounds sad and creepy so they have to dress it up with an emphasis on procreation. If any of these idiots actually got laid and got a woman pregnant they’d run away – they’re not REALLY interested in the long hard work of raising children they just want the fun sex part.
And this applies to the rest of the manosphere too.
I dunno that antinatalism would be considered extreme. Radical, definitely. But most proponents of it are measured individuals who just seek to minimize harm.
I personally consider myself to be a part of VHEMT- the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, because I think that bringing additional human beings onto this planet will only result in considerable suffering both on the part of the new individual as well on the planet as a whole. The perpetuation of the human race is causing enormous ecological damage, as well as huge swathes of humanity being subjected to poverty, victimization, and struggle. Judging by the way that climate change is going, extinction is almost certainly going to be inevitable anyway. It’s better for humanity to eventually bow out of existence by voluntarily choosing not to give birth to future generations, than it is for billions of people to suffer and die in ever-worsening natural disasters and wars (not to mention dragging thousands of other species into extinction as well). At least, that’s my philosophy on it.
The key term of the movement is ‘voluntary’. The goal of the philosophy is a humanitarian one, even if most people disagree with it. It’s not a movement of hatred and entitlement like the incel one.
My parents had seven children. Of those, four went to college, three did not. Of the four, none have procreated*; the latter three have five children between them.
Apparently, higher education is an effective contraceptive method.
*Two of us became parents anyway.
@nonukar
I’m pretty sure their definition of “reproducing” is The God-Given Right Not To Wear a Condom Whatever That Damned Uppity Woman Thinks.
@Bmacs
How about no. We’re not the dumping ground for failures. Misfits, maybe, but these lot – no bloody way.
hexum7
You can’t know if someone has a eating disorder just by looking at them.
it’s rediculous to suggest that it is possible and also not fair at all.
lots of fat people are healthy – if someone is fat it doesn’t mean they have a eating disorder. if someone is “underweight” (like me for most of my childhood and teenage life) it doesn’t mean they are have a eating disorder.
and “overweight” and “underweight” are just nonsense anyway! BMI is nonsense. and it is nothing about attractiveness.
I don’t really care if what you said it to be in the mind of the incel – because it is hurtful to lots of people here; including me. intent is not important. your words still hurt.
I’m not trying to armchair-diagnose, but to me, incel forums seem to be the “men with clinical depression” equivalent to those “pro ana” or “pro mia” spaces you see for eating disorders like anorexia (ana) and bulimia (mia) sometimes on some corners of the internet.
Not that men don’t also get those disorders, but as far as I know, those online spaces are pretty girl/woman-dominated, teen girls and young women in particular.
And they are not “support groups.” They don’t encourage people to get treatment, or even try to provide healthier/short term coping techniques or self-talk for people who can’t access therapy. They just encourage people to go deeper into the disorder and self-harm/self-destruct further.
So encouraging incel identity and incel spaces, imho, is like promoting pro-ana/pro-mia spaces, and it has about the same effect on mental health/mental illness management.
Also yes, you cannot tell someone’s physical/mental health from looking at them.
I agree heartily with that statement. Even men who are not “incels” walk away — or run as fast as they can — when presented with unintended parental duties.
it is quite ironic acually, I had a very good relationship with food when I was “too skinny”, but now I am more “healthy” weight my relationship with food is much worse and i’m unwell quite often, or at least anxiety and stress means that I starve myself, which is something I never thought I will do.
The comparison has never felt right to me. Mainly because pro ana/mia site users harm only themselves. Incel sites pose a real threat to others.
Also, pro ana sites don’t try to recruit. Or at least they didn’t when I frequented them an admittedly long time ago. Girls seeking tips on how to acquire an ED were shooed away. Part of it was cliquishness and competitiveness. Part of it was genuine concern for the well being of those not yet stuck in a disorder. There were also always links for those wanting recovery. Nobody got angry at members who decided to recover.
Incel sites on the other hand, are full of fantasies about the beta uprising. They want frustrated and angry men to come join them.
I get why people make the comparison, but really, there’s no female equivalent to incel. Because incel, like every other branch of the manosphere, is at its core about preserving privilege. They aren’t angry because they’re lonely. They are angry because they can’t control women. This is why incels are always straight, even though it’s going to be harder for young socially awkward queer men to find romance and sex than it is for young socially awkward straight men.
That’s about it. And being allowed to walk away from all responsibility in actually raising the kid.
Nail. Head. Hit.
Vakyrie and Meercat- keep in mind that incel reasoning is rather twisty-
Having an eating disorder wouldn’t repulse most people.
But in a perpetual incel’s mind, being severely underweight or overweight are things that would make them hidious- Remember how obsessed we are with every feature that puts them in the unfuckable zone, and how disgusted they react to fe azone ( or whatever the days term is) who do not conform to social,y accepted standards of beauty- that’s how they think of themselves- and therefore give them, as I saud, something other than their personality to blame their social failures on.
Andy yes, I realize that one can have an eating disorder without being particularly big or, conversely fatless- I was being a bit flippant about that in order to try to come up with an (apparently lame) quip.
On the other hand, there is no shortage of blogs and YouTube channels that encourage young men to extremely unhealthy first to lose more fat than can sustain a human body. The precept is that if a guy not look like an anatomy chart- has too much body fat.
I have more thoughts But right now, I’m mesmerized listening g to a sociopath speak about charges of sexual abuse as if he were a politician making a speech about taxes. His daughter says he should pray “for the woman” wrong, she should pray for herself- “the woman” knows better than to be around creeps now.
Is he going to describe how much he harrangued Monica lewinsky to get her to tell him how many times a man, charged only if lying under oath, had cum in her mouth?
Will he describe his thinking when he wrote down that he was part of a club who had sex with a teenaged girl in his class and write it down in a yearbook- a document people tend to keep for life?
Yeah, I went to a Jesuit prep school. Predatory jocks were everywhere. Now he’s trying to make it sound like he went to s menare school
Valentin. I’m sorry that my words hurt you. I should have worded my post better
But you should always consider intent .
That’s all I’m going to say about it.
Those of you further who want to further criticize me for a single badly worded sentence should really read the comments policy concerning piling up on people