By David Futrelle
Some excellent dating tips for incels from comedian Rachel Parris. I’m sure the incels are mad about it already.
Listen up, Incels! Here’s @RachelParris with a brief guide on how to actually treat women… pic.twitter.com/z4JfNDIwD1
— BBC Two (@BBCTwo) September 17, 2018
To be fair, though, many of these guys are so far gone in their hatred that they should not be dating actual human beings at all and probably can’t be trusted to own pets or even plants.
But there are bitter young dudes just flirting with incel and who are, I suspect, redeemable. If that’s you, LISTEN UP because Parris is dispensing some ACTUAL GOOD ADVICE HERE.
@WWTH
I admit my knowledge of dating advice for women is limited. What you’re talking about could very well exist to some degree–but since popular dating advice for women includes writers who use the phrase “dick is abundant and low value” I doubt that it is the full story.
As for male dating advice, in the 00’s and early 2010’s it seemed like the internet was overrun with PUA, of which I’ve read a small fraction. As you know it is almost all terrible. I stopped paying attention to it years ago when I became less gullible and PUA got worse and worse before finally associating itself with the far right.
I haven’t seen much dating advice for men come in to replace the PUA stuff after that became an alt right thing. I haven’t seen any of the PUA Lite that you’re talking about. The only person I listen to a lot on this topic is Dr. Nerdlove, who is focused on self-improvement, building connections with people, and making sure the women you’re dating have a good time–and not manipulating them.
I’ll respond about fiction on a separate post.
It doesn’t show. Really, until your brave confession we all thought you knew what you were talking about.
This is still the subject about which you posess limited knowledge?
I did not see that “but” coming. It was a total surprise.
Please tell us the full story! You obviously know more about this subject than the people who pay attention to it, even though only a sentence your knowledge was limited. You’re just a fast learner.
Really.
And my other leg’s got bells on.
You’re right, I guess my confused ladybrain imagined the decades of messages I’ve heard and read.
Given that much of his advice is the basic hygiene and social skills stuff I was referencing, you’re kind of just making my point here. He’s also not the norm by any means. Isn’t the whole point of his work that it’s an alternative to all the misogynistic and shitty advice most dudes get.
@Hippo
You seem to think that since my knowledge has limits my arguments are worthless. I wonder if you hold yourself to that standard. Or maybe you think my mistake is admitting fallibility and arguing in good faith, and are mocking me for not deploying my soldiers correctly.
https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Arguments_as_soldiers
@WWTH
Anyway, fiction. Movies and TV anyway.
Earlier I alluded to different genres treating romance differently. Your examples are good and the first ones demonstrate a longstanding trend in this kind of comedy. “Schlub gets hottie” is a central theme in Apatow movies and others in that genre. Broad comedy and sitcoms are probably the most egregious about this. Look at Seinfeld, and Northern Exposure, and Frasier, and (if you must) Friends. More recently we have (unfortunately) The Big Bang Theory, where “nerd gets hottie” is the whole point.
Fortunately both comedy formats have gotten better. I appreciate that you gave recent examples that show it’s still ongoing–but there is an increasing trend of female-led or ensemble comedies that treat things much more fairly. Trainwreck and The Spy Who Dumped Me are movie examples; 30 Rock, Insecure, and Community are TV examples. It’s definitely not equal at this point, but there is reason for encouragement.
Romantic pairings outside of comedy are much more reasonable. In romance the leads tend to be similarly attractive. Same with drama. Same with action (action has its own problems of course). Same with fantasy and sci-fi. This isn’t always the case, and a lot of the actor age differences are a problem. But these genres clearly aren’t as bad as comedy.
Then we have porn. I’d argue that porn is best thought of as an environmental toxin, but technically it’s a type of media. First of all, the kind of degrading behaviors toward women that are normalized is disturbing. I don’t want to kink shame anyone, but does that stuff have to be so common?
Regarding attractiveness. The male and female stars are similarly conventionally attractive in most ways (with a few notable exceptions).
Remember how I said “most ways?” The dicks in porn are about one in a thousand. This is particularly insidious because unlike other physical traits, people can’t reality-check by comparing to their peers. Many boys (and girls) grow up with no idea what an average dick is. Saying the potential effects don’t matter because porn is tailored to male tastes is as spurious as saying the effects of fashion magazines on women don’t matter–besides, women look at porn nowadays too.
Fiction overall makes people romantically insecure, but in most cases is a little to a lot harder on women. The recent ubiquity of porn complicates this somewhat. I agree that there is anti-female bias in media, WWTH, I just think the picture is more complicated than you make it out to be.
@WWTH
So no comment on the “dick is abundant and low value” portion of dating advice given to women? If it was as one-sided as you claim how could that kind of thing even exist?
I am probably more versed in Dr. Nerdlove than you are. He does talk about basic hygene, true. He also talks about clothing style, in some detail. Also about how to be funny. Also about the importance of having interesting life experiences that you can share. Also about the importance of being passionate about things, and developing skills. He frequently brings up the Grimes Test–an explicit repudiation of the idea that just not being an abuser and showing up is enough.
@itsabeast
How common is this “dick is abundant and low value” portion of dating advice? Is it typically stated that explicitly, or is it more often implied?
If possible, I’d really like to see some of the original advice being referred to by this phrase.
Well, that seems rather passive-aggressive… :/
Um, no. I’m pretty sure your mistake is what’s known as “mansplaining”.
I really don’t think Sci-fi, fantasy and action are great examples. Those genres barely ever have any women who aren’t conventionally attractive in them but have lots of average looking men. And look how long it’s taken to finally get a Marvel Cinematic Universe movie about a female character at all. Despite large female audiences for genre movies, they’re still very much geared towards male audiences. The exception being movies off of YA books targeted towards girls.
Also, that age difference between romantically paired leads is not something to be hand waved away. “Don’t ever appear to age” is a gigantic part of the impossible standards women are expected to meet and age discrimination is a big thing in Hollywood. Do you think the misogynists featured here are the only one that fetishize youth? Just a couple of weeks ago there was a dating site study that showed 18 year olds are the most popular. The headlines in the news were not “Men Creepy as Fuck; Like to Hit on Teenagers” as they should have been. Nope. They were more along the lines of “Women Peak at Age 18.” And there are still countless essays published in the mainstream media about how women should be settling down and having babies before their eggs dry up and no one wants them anymore. Even though sperm degrades in quality past the mid thirties, there are never similar articles written about men need to settle down before their jizz starts producing less healthy babies.
I’m not even sure what your point is bringing up Trainwreck given that such a big deal was made of how Schumer was too fat to attract men. Then there was that other movie where she gets knocked on the head and suddenly thinks she’s a hottie. The idea of a hideous woman like her – blonde, cute and a size 6 or 8 instead of the usual 0 or 2 – could ever think she was beautiful was played as an oh so hilarious joke.
Insecure has flown under the radar, so it’s drawn less misogynist ire, but let’s not forget the years long meltdown over Girls because it was so upsetting to men that a chubby woman be allowed on TV.
I guess I’m just not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here. What are you even trying to prove?
Worst movie I’ve seen this year – and I’m including the rewatch of Reign of Fire.
Advice from a pretty, skinny blonde woman is a silly perspective on romance. She just needs to let men approach. She has no clue what it takes for an average man to approach and seduce a hot stranger.
Being “nice” kills attraction because 1) women want men with backbone and standards, and 2) women sense incongruence. Provoking, teasing, and even backhanded compliments can sometimes be effective tactics. Women want an emotional challenge, not a saccharine milquetoast.
Even worse, this article suggests incels deserve loneliness because they must not be “nice enough”. Some genuinely nice men redouble their efforts and become friend-zoned doormats. This creates embittered MGTOW’s who drop out of the romance market. A healthy constructive attitude does not automatically exalt women and blame men.
With regard to the phrase “dick is abundant and of low value,” I think I recall the article it appeared in – contextually, it was a slightly blunter version of the phrase “plenty more fish in the sea,” i.e., you don’t have to settle for someone who treats you poorly out of fear that no one else will ever want you. The full quote appears to be “To any women reading ‘how to get a man’ franchises or sticking around in stale unsatisfying relationships: dick is abundant and of low value.”
@itsabeast
I can honestly say that this is a phrase that I have literally never heard before. Where are you getting this from? How “popular” can this “popular dating advice for women” really be if nobody knows this phrase?
Also, I think that you might be a bit more fixated on “dick” than most women actually are. You talk about it in a lot of your responses, but tbh it’s not really a thing women tend to focus on.
Like here. How would they even know how big his dick is? I mean, that’s just not something you tend to see until you’ve already spent enough time with a guy to have a pretty good sense of whether you’ve got the kind of connection that could lead to something longer term. Unless he’s wearing really tight pants or something, but that would probably be more off-putting than anything.
I guess, yeah, porn probably can give guys an unrealistic sense of what regular penis size might be. And that could make them insecure. But that’s not really got a lot to do with women or their expectations, has it? The insecurity partly lies in assuming women care a lot more about that than they actually do.
@KL
Let women say what women want.
I’ll grant you, if you’re just acting nice because you want to get in her pants and you don’t actually give a shit, then yes, she’s likely to pick up on that and keep you at arms length.
The solution is to hit on women you actually like. Then you don’t have to pretend and you won’t mind getting “friend zoned”, because being friends with someone you like is a good thing.
There is a big grey area between doormat and asshole. You can be a kind, caring and empathetic person and still have a backbone.
And I personally fucking hate guys who think it’s cute to provoke, tease or neg. That is a turnoff. I have no desire to spend my time around someone I can never let my guard down with. Yuck.
But sure, tell me more about what women like.
And yeah, that Medium article is pretty clearly there to counteract the usual programming women get. Which is “you’re going to die alone and a spinster if you don’t do whatever you need to do get and keep a man, even one that’s not that great.”
So. Much. This.
I’m currently in a long-term relationship so I haven’t “dated” for ages, but when I used to – if a bloke would act like he liked me and enjoyed my company, only for it to become apparent that in fact he had no other interests beyond shagging/”girlfriend-zoning” me, that was the instant kiss of death to any nascent interest in same. I certainly wasn’t looking for hearts&flowers-romance-forever myself (I personally loathe “traditional” so-called romantic gestures); I was out to have an enjoyable time with someone I liked, including shagging if mutually agreeable. I sure as hell have no desire to shag a bloke who doesn’t at least like me and enjoy hanging out – why would I? Why would anyone???? You can call it “incongruence” all you like, but what it is is creeping and lying and being a flaming hypocrite … which is not frightfully attractive, really.
Also, since when does backbone+standards =!= nice? Nice people don’t have standards now? I know some good and decent people who have (literally, not figuratively) put their lives on the line for what they knew was right. Sheesh, some folks wouldn’t know backbone if they were hit over the head with it.
You know, that’s one of those things I really don’t get myself. If I don’t like someone, I sure as hell don’t want to get naked with them. I want to do that with someone I’m comfortable with, so we can have fun. If we’re not having fun, then what’s the point?
Re: “dick is abundant and of low value”
I feel like this qualifies as the kind of statement Pauli famously called “not even wrong”.
BTW, anyone notice itsabeast linking to LessWrong? I’m kind of not surprised.
@WWTH In principle, a man can be kind and empathetic without being a doormat. But bandwidth is limited in noisy bars and online dating. After being inundated by men’s drunk and incompetent come-ons, women can become dismissive and rude. In these situations, a man must sometimes jolt a woman into appreciating that he is different, and she cannot just use him for drinks or amusement.
Lonely young men are often too timid, (genuinely) nice, and boring. PUA’s learn to get out of their social comfort zones by experimenting with tactics that are not always nice. Many men find these tactics dramatically improve their success. Eventually these men can abandon the scripted tricks. Sadly, I learned this by walking out on rude first dates, only to have the women chase me.
Also, sexual attraction is not about rapport and comfort. It involves tension, anticipation, and sometimes anxiety. Anyone who has had a fight and “make-up sex” knows this. So telling nerdy incels to be nice just reinforces their problem.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/
Okay, KL.
The last paragraph is really edging close to rape and partner violence apologia territory. I’d be careful if I were you.
Also, no. Anxiety does not turn me on. Neither does post fight sex. Plus, the notion that women who are tired of getting hit on by drunken fools will find being subject to PUA negging to be a welcome respite is so absurd I don’t even no what to say to it. Are you getting your idea of what women want from TV or something?
Also, on top of WWTH’s excellent reply: noisy bars aren’t the only place to meet potential partners (despite you phrasing your point as if they were), so what’s the point of pushing someone there to begin with, if that’s not their natural “habitat”? Stepping out of your comfort zone isn’t everything, not always. Especially if you haven’t yet exhausted the possibilities inside the comfort zone (which is comfortable for a reason).
So first off, I never even let a dude pay for my anything when dating, so there was never a chance of me “using” him for drinks. Amusement was always shared, as is the typical way humans interact with one another. But secondly, the way my husband stood out was by a) respecting my boundaries and b) sharing a lot in common with me.
Also, your use of the word “jolt” here makes me think there’s some kind of violence being applied. So in addition to what WWTH already said, watch that kind of implication, too.
Oh, and if she’s bored and rude? She’s not the one using him for amusement. She’s clearly not interested. He’s the one using her for amusement in that scenario. And he needs to fuck off.
Wow. That first article is a dumpsterfire. Correction, it is a series of dumpster fires in a trainwreck, where every paragraph/train car is a flaming dumpster, blowing up into a fireball of toxic fume-spouting rubbish on fire.
First he literally starts the entire conversation by equating women to money, that is, sub-human property, while throwing in race-baiting and wealth discrimination to cover his objectively disgusting comparison.
Next he says rapists get sex, I’m not a rapist, ergo it’s totally not entitlement when I feel wronged for not getting my owed amount of sex that is at least as much as actual, literal rapists.
Then he just quotes a bunch of satire, calls all feminists evil and doubles-down on his race-baiting dehumanisation of women.
Then he goes on a long-winded argument that literally is nothing more than semantics while handwaving away the entire history of mens “rights” advocates since the dawn of all time as purely benevo-OH THERE’S THE SMOKING GUN
Yeah, anti-feminist MRA apologist, ok, that makes sense, yeah don’t really need to analyse any more of this 100-year-old-regurgitated-nonsense, that’s what I donate to the indomitable David F for.
@Surplus: perfect!!! *giggles uncontrollably
@Alexisagirlsname
I’d assume that for any woman who got all of her information about penises from porn before seeing a real one, her expectations would mostly lead to a huge sense of relief on discovering that the real thing isn’t as likely to cause massive amounts of pain as porn suggests.