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Fix struggling Hooters chain by letting men DEBATE THEIR WAITRESSES, dude suggests

Hey, large-breasted women: Debate him if you disagree that you should debate him! (Note: This is not actually the Hooters debate guy, by the way; it’s a meme.)

By David Futrelle

Have you heard the bad news about Hooters? The infamous “breastaurant” chain, a place where America’s creepiest dads and granddads could live out their fantasies of gawking at their waitresses’ boobs without the owners of said boobs being able to complain about it, has been, well, sagging a bit lately.

According to Business Insider, “the number of Hooters locations in the US has dropped by more than 7% from 2012 to 2016, and sales have stagnated, according to industry reports.”

Some are blaming the chain’s troubles on millennials’ alleged lack of interest in boobs, at least compared with their breast-obsessed elders. And maybe they have a point. What’s a business based on boobs supposed to do in an ass-obsessed world like ours? Why should millennials pay to eat overpriced wings while staring at boobs when they could be home eating ass for free?

One enterprising young game developer has some ideas. In a series of tweets (starting here), Eric Adam Hovis explained how he would “fix” Hooters to make it more appealing to geeky millennial dudes like him.

Eric Adam Hovis ‏ @ericadamhovis Follow Follow @ericadamhovis More Replying to @KrangTNelson @shaun_jen For me to be excited about Hooters, there would need to be changes. 1)I'm not a huge fan of the barbie look - bottle blonde, big boobs, scorching tans. 2) I wouldn't be there to LOOK at you, but to TALK with you. A place to eat and chat with good conversationalists? Sign me up.

Waitresses aren’t there to be looked at! They’re there to be TALKED at!

So it would be a place to have conversations and debates with smart/pretty women while eating food. There could be "debate nights" where wings are free or something. There could be activities rooms where people play pool or video games. I think I'm thinking of a geisha place.

DEBATE NIGHT! Come on down to Hooters and DEBATE our GEISHAS! Did we mention the FREE WINGS?

Just remember to tip your waitress, at least if she lets you win the “debate.”

It would also be important to have some specialized setup for the guys who just want to therapeutically vent their woes to women. Like specialized "problem listener" hostesses. This way these guys don't just dump their problems onto each and every woman they encounter.

What’s better than FREE WINGS? FREE EMOTIONAL LABOR from women with huge bazongas!

Oh, and somehow Hooters would need to be SUPER CHEAP since us millennials are BROKE. I think of current Hooters as some weird, exotic, unique luxury experience, like going to a magician restaurant. But then again I think of Applebee's as a fancy, high-class restaurant, too.

But of course. Because millennial men are clearly entitled to all this attention from “smart and pretty women” for practically nothing.

So for me as a millennial to be excited about Hooters it would need to be a fundamentally different experience that, instead of relying on a superficial novelty, instead cultivates meaningful human interactions in a world increasingly isolated by convenience and technology.

Yes, because what human interaction could possibly be more “meaningful” than a”debate” between some dude and a woman who knows that if she challenges him in any significant way he’ll stiff her on the tip? Especially when she has to endure hour after hour of such “debates,” on topics not of her choosing, every single shift, while delivering up plate after plate of wings and jalapeno poppers with a giant smile plastered on her face?

Well, Mr. Hovis got his free debate all right. His tweets inspired a wave of comments and jokes on Twitter and elsewhere. Let’s just say that his ideas weren’t quite as well received as he was perhaps expecting, particularly by women.

Summertime Radness Li'l 🌳 ‏ Verified account @karengeier Following Following @karengeier More Replying to @ericadamhovis @KrangTNelson @shaun_jen you should be permanently banned from ever talking to women probably, which is like your life now, except with legal ramifications

ᴏʜ ғᴜᴄᴋ ɪᴛ's ASHLEY LYNCH ‏ @ashleylynch Following Following @ashleylynch More Replying to @DavidFutrelle “I’d like to speak to the manager. M’lady refused to debate me about why feminism is cancer so I demand that my Macho Nacho Man plate be significantly discounted due to my default victory.”

Alex Jay Brady ‏ @AlexJayBrady Follow Follow @AlexJayBrady More Replying to @ashleylynch @DavidFutrelle Where straight men can get together and mass debate

ritical thot ‏ @beehivesy Following Following @beehivesy More “i would never give money to a sex worker. i mean..,,,call me a feminist but i NEED my chicken waitress to be highly educated, naturally gorgeous and my literal therapist. also i want to pay her pennies lol”

Hovis, who actually sees himself as something of a feminist (or, as he puts it half jokingly in his Twitter bio, as a “Berniecrat progressive leftist sjw libtard feminazi betacuck”), has spent much of the last several days “clarifying” and rethinking his suggestions in a series of followup tweets and in a blog post he’s already revised and rewritten several times.

He insists he didn’t mean to suggest that “waitresses/bartenders should … have to be people’s therapists” — I’m not quite sure how this denial squares with his bit about “‘problem listener’ hostesses” who would basically be serving as therapists. He also declares that everyone at his new, improved Hooters “should be paid a living wage” — despite his demand that the restaurants also be ‘”SUPER CHEAP.” Oh, and he also thinks “Hooters should be more body-inclusive” even though his reference to “smart and pretty” waitresses in his original tweets made clear that he thinks looks should play a big part in the company’s hiring decisions.

But Hovis’ original tweets are much more, well, revealing than his somewhat less-that-altogether-convincing “clarifications.” And that’s because his original tweets reflect something about our society’s insidious tendency to dump emotional labor onto women, and to demand that women do this labor largely for free.

Many if not most of us could benefit from having someone listen to our problems. But this responsibility shouldn’t be foisted off on hostesses working for a casual dining chain famous for its skimpy outfits. Nor should it be foisted on wives or girlfriends. People should be able to get the therapy they need from actual therapists, well-trained professionals paid for their expertise. And, like Hovis’ imaginary improved Hooters, this service should be “SUPER CHEAP” if not free, with costs subsidized by a beefed-up health insurance system based on Single-Payer or Medicare for All  (as should the rest of our medical expenses).

And if after all this you still want some hot wigs, well, there are better places to get them from than Hooters.

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Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

I would also hate to be the centre of such a pile! I would hope that I would, if I found myself in one, take a break from the social media for a few hours to think about why people are reacting the way they are.

Hopefully I could come back with a final tweet going “I hear what you are saying, and I see the problems with what I said. I’m sorry, I’ll do better next time.”

I’m slowly working through his blog post, to see if he eventually comes to that conclusion….

Re NotTom’s point that everything needs to have both sides presented and the proper context so we can see that the people featured here are not souless evil beings –

Checks out as a probable Jordie P fan.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

One thing I think I saw on either BronxBlogger or Gwen_No_Fear was a discussion of this idea that “debate” is the best means of obtaining knowledge or testing the vigor of one’s worldview. It’s really not and never has been, but it’s even less so now with the YouTube model of response video cut-ups. There’s no referee to declare a winner; it’s all based on “the show.”

Knowledge is still best obtained through reading and demonstration. “Debating” a complete stranger is nothing more than ego masturbation.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

WWTH summed up:

Wanting this kind of skilled and individualized attention for the cost of a fast food meal is entitled on a level that is just mind boggling.

Indeed, it’s so ludicrous I didn’t initially read it as a serious business model proposal, but more like “let me explain why Hooters is absolutely doomed to fail with the millennial audience, because based on my own lack of interest and money, it’d literally take an impossible equation to succeed”.

Again, I was being charitable, assuming a modicum of common sense and not paying close attention to what was said in the first place.

booburry
booburry
2 years ago

I cringed so hard when I saw this on Twitter 😖

I work overnights at a grocery store and because I’m alone most of the time, older men take this as the perfect scenario to hold me hostage and tell me all their woes. It’s honestly worse for the late night cashier. She has regulars at this point that will just awkwardly stand there for hours sometimes. Lurking around customers. Many times she will go to the cafe for her break and one of them will be waiting for her like ‘oh you’re running late tonight!’ ITS SO CREEPY

Ray of Rays
Ray of Rays
2 years ago

young game developer

Unexamined misogyny aside, I’m also confused why he didn’t just flat-out call for the defictionalization of the Brothel of Slaking Intellectual Lusts.

(A train of thought that made me wonder how many women there are in Hooters’ management structure)

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@booburry
I got this as a CSR. There were a few regular callers. Some just wanted to try to offend us (reading through their account notes was fun), some who knew the right kinds of things to throw in to force us to stay on the line (but after a point we’d say, ‘you get *one more* question’), but the really sad ones were the ones who lived in a group home and had no friends or family to talk to and just wanted to gush about our products at us. They were nice to us and even knew each of us by name. I didn’t mind talking to them, but I also couldn’t just keep them on the line forever because of policy. I’d take talking to one of them for an entire shift over some middle aged dude telling me there’s no way I can help troubleshoot his problem when it turns out he didn’t even plug it in, though, if it were up to me.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

As Catalpa said, plenty of men subscribe to the notion that women are superficial and thus can be easily impressed by showing how knowledgeable you are; which is where I feel this guy is coming from.

Given that no woman will sit down and listen to this guy he would probably like it if they were forced to listen to him because, who knows? Maybe she will realize what an absolute catch he is and give him a chance.

I really see no other reasoning behind this cringe-worthy petition, or the many, many attempts of men who want to force a debate on any issue, of which they generally have no clue.

GenJones
GenJones
2 years ago

Aside from all the other things this guy has so, so backwards, this proposition shows incredibly poor business acumen. People waiting tables have to hustle. Unless Hooters have become total mausoleums, your waitress is only going to be able to make time to drop your food off and cruise by for refills. In order for her to actually have time to carry on a conversation with you, there would have to have so many extra hands on deck in order to still be a functioning restaurant that their overhead would require a drastic increase in prices. So no, it wouldn’t be super cheap. Also, there are wait times to consider. They want you to consume your food within 40 minutes tops and GTFO so they have a free table for the next paying customer.

the real cie
2 years ago

I was a waitress, a cocktail waitress, and a bartender. I wasn’t one of the gorgeous ones with large breasts on display. I was average-looking with average-size breasts. I still got hit on by gross creepers all the time.
This dumb-ass has no idea how difficult waiting tables is. Dude, ain’t nobody got time for your nonsense. If you want a therapist, contact a therapist. If you want someone to debate, go to a Geeks Who Drink trivia night.
Of course, Dudebro might be afraid that the ladies at Geeks Who Drink Trivia Night would take him down a notch real quick.

Kereea
Kereea
2 years ago

Seriously. PLENTY of chains have had issues with millenials due to millenials having less money and therefore being more discerning about where they eat out. Hooters is just one of the more heavily affected ones.

Generally, my recommendations if you want millenials:
–Good value for the food quality. I think this is part of why various Asian places tend to do really well with my generation: Asian food is often very (wrongly) undervalued as “easy ethnic food” and so you usually get a lot for your money for honestly pretty good stuff. Golden Corral has one night a week when young children eat free, which attracts a lot of working class millenials because they can get an average meal and their kids can have something really filling. Fast food places have dollar menus. If you are charging more than fifteen bucks an entree, it had better be a damn good entree. A fancy Italian place my folks and I like has a model where if you order their “Signature pastas” you get one order and then get anther order to take home, essentially a two for one of pretty high quality stuff (I LOVE their cheese ravioli) so yeah, fancy places can do it too.
–Customization options: People are a lot more aware of their allergies and preferences than in the past, and so places that serve things like pizza would do well to find ways to get as much customization for as little extra charge on the customer as possible. Pieology is a good example of this model.
–Good atmosphere for socializing: Generally if someone is eating out with their pals, they want to talk with their pals. Too much loud music or loud TVs aren’t good unless you’re a business like a sports bar or a club. Wifi is also a bonus if it’s a working lunch or if they have children (srsly, went to dinner with friends family at an Olive Garden ages ago and playing a phone game kept his infamously energetic baby bro well in check).

Hooters does not match a lot of that list. You can’t really bring your kids or really your female friends, there’s better “guy’s hangout” places like sports bars, and there’s no food they’re really known for like other average chains such as Olive Garden or Applebees. “Oh, the waitress is hot” is not really a selling point anymore.

(also, to quote child me who grew up on a beach “why would you want to go to Hooters, you could see hot ladies in less at the beach!”)

Leum
Leum
2 years ago

Seconding Keera wrt Asian restaurants. There’s a ton of really good, and cheap, Thai places where I live that provide some of the best food I’ve ever eaten.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

@Keree

Generally, my recommendations if you want millenials:

Pay us a fucking living wage, you dimwitted fools.

I hope you don’t mind me fixing that for you.

Onager
Onager
2 years ago

Does America have magician restaurants?

A quick Google suggests there are restaurant magicians who you can hire but not a legerdemain-themed eatery.

Perhaps our new friend has stumbled across an exciting new dining experience – rabbit stew from a hat, chocolate coins behind the ears, whipping the tablecloth off at the end of the meal, etc.

Ex stupiditate, ingenio?

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

Rabid Rabbit:

Point is, it’s really weird even more oppressively patriarchal societies allow for emotional relationships between men, while now, when there are cracks in the patriarchal structure, such relationships have apparently become a major threat.

That doesn’t seem weird to me. When patriarchy seemed unassailable and ordained by nature, the full range of emotional relationships between men would not have appeared a threat. But now that many people are chipping away at the structure, it has become more important to shore it up, and one aspect of this is the denigration of any male behaviour which seems feminised.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Whoa! Whoa! Big news in Canadaland….!

Maxime “Dog-Whistler” Bernier has quit the Conservative Party of Canada and is forming his own federal political party!

comment image

This is big! I have a feeling your going to see a lot of the more fascist members of the party go towards Bernier, while the mealy-mouth “can’t we just use our indoor voice with our racism?” members will remain with the Tories.

If the right really splits, undoing the union of the Reform and old PC parties from the 90s… it just might be the split we need to maintain a healthy air in this country.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

If the MGTOWs’ longed-for fembots ever become a reality, I wonder whether robot hostess bars might become a thing. If you want a place where gorgeous young women will sit with you all evening, gazing adoringly at you and occasionally agreeing with your boring monologue, giggling while hand-feeding you food, continually topping up your overpriced drinks… well, you don’t actually need humans for that, do you? And robots don’t need to be paid.

Hexum7
Hexum7
2 years ago

Wait….. is this what millenials do on cam sites like Pornhub Live? Debate climate change and such?
Who knew

Well, at least they get paid by the minute

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Pay us a fucking living wage, you dimwitted fools.

This. I don’t know what percentage of millenials work in food service, but it’s likely sizable. Large restaurant and coffee chains really need to take the lead here. If they do, they’ll almost certainly get the investment back in increased business plus some extra. If large employers raise their wages, other companies in other industries will do the same in order to compete for the best employees.

When the minimum wage and 40 hour work week were first implemented in the US, businessmen predictably complained about how that was going to hurt profits. The opposite happened.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think a lot of employers care more about power than they do money. The research and the history is there and easy to find. Healthy and happy employees who make a living wage are more productive and they spend more money in the economy. It’d be a smart business decision to treat employees with respect. But they won’t do it because they’d rather feel powerful. They’d rather dominate their employees.

Lesley
Lesley
2 years ago

@ people discussing an ostensible change in the blog’s content and flavor over the last year or two

I think there was also such a shift that more or less coincided with Trump becoming president and the banner changing. It went from having the specific task of “look at these horrible, creepy oozing misogynist communities being incubated in the armpit of the internet” and “we should watch these guys because they might go Elliot Rodgers if somebody doesn’t shine a light into their cesspits” to “#Resistance!” in general with a particular focus in misogyny at large.

The website morphed from being just a handy way to keep an eye on the creepiest of creep misogynists into a way to also keep an eye on the wokest of woke progressives. (And no I’m not making a moral comparison between those two groups even though I do think some of the opinions of the later are wrongheaded. But they aren’t violent and dangerous as the former are).

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Arbilester,

Thank you for your kind words. I was worried I was coming off harsher than I intended to. Since I’ve taken on the role of one of the bad cops around here, I do worry about friendly fire sometimes!

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
2 years ago

@K. and their Papa John story:

Credit goes to Something Awful forums user Korranus for this:

O Papa! my Papa! our fearful trip is done, The firm has weather’d every rack,
the prize we sought is won, The end is near, the bells I hear, the pizza is a-fattening,
While “RACIST PIG!” the left-wing squeal, the scandal grim and daring;
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red, Where on the deck my Papa lies, Fallen cold and dead.

O Papa! my Papa! rise up and hear the bells;
Rise up- for you the stock is soaring – for you the pizza bubbles,
For you are threats and ‘larming tweets – for you the press a-crowding,
For you they call, the swaying mass, their eager faces turning;
Here Papa! dear father!
This arm beneath your head!
It is some dream that on the brick,
You’ve fallen cold and dead.

My Papa does not answer, his lips are pale and still,
My father does not feel my arm, he has no pulse nor will,
The firm is stable safe and sound, its stock is up by 1,
From scandal squirm the victor firm comes in with object won;
Exult O masses, and ring O bells!
But I with mournful tread,
Walk the deck my Papa lies,
Fallen cold and dead.

Chris Oakley
2 years ago

Things Faceball isn’t good at:

1)Everything

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

Omg omg omg Katamount omg omg omg

If we can split the vote on the right similar to how the left is split….. omggggg!

tim gueguen
2 years ago

I’m not convinced Bernier leaving will do much to the Conservatives. Splinter sects like that usually don’t have much luck in Canadian politics. It seems more like an ego move on his part than a thought out plan. On the other hand this does make Scheer look a bit weak.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

My older brother — a violent sexist and racist, and an alcoholic — used to try to corner me and make me debate with him. Nonononononono.

Skylalalalalalala
Skylalalalalalala
2 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
August 23, 2018 at 8:41 am
So, I propose an app. It would be sort of like OK Cupid. But only for men and only for friendship. Users can find other men who share their interests and values who are willing to ask for and to receive emotional support.

This would be….amazing. Not just for men whose friends can’t/won’t give them support, but for men who simply don’t have friends because they have no way to meet other people eg. my disabled husband & oldest son.

I want this app to exist. If I had any clue how to program, I’d try to create something like it.

Z&T
Z&T
2 years ago

@ Mish,

“Anecdata time: I once worked at a gentlemen’s club – waitresses in lingerie, each assigned to ‘serve’ a specific table, the whole deal. We had to light their cigarettes for them, chat to them, pour their drinks, etc. That place was incredibly pricey. Not that we saw much of the money, obv.”

Wow this sounds surreal to me. I couldn’t do it. I’m too impatient. And ill tempered. You must have nerves of steel!

Oh also I do agree with you about prison labor (other thread here). So I don’t forget to say, and I was also thinking about what sort of people you will deal with in the manufacturing environment, in regards to dealing with clients.

I don’t have to be overly nice to people, it’s usually strictly business. One of the plusses of it, you are dealing with the topic at hand. For those who missed it I’m a mechanical engineer. You speak to the client about what they want made.

And oh I did remember a few people, screaming, crying, begging, grown men. And the only way I can help is going to cost plenty but there will be attractive flight attendants involved 🙂
Which the client won’t get to interact with, aw 🙁

What would happen, and it’s not their fault either, (their inventory people would be at fault), a part would break, they had no spare, nothing in inventory, and they have to have it now because not only is that machine down, because of that their entire production line is down. Because of one little thing.

Screaming, crying, begging, oh please I have to have it NOW!
But if they are in TX and my co. only has one in a warehouse in NJ, well I hate to tell you, but. And it’s too late for overnight shipping. I can’t wait that long I have to have it now!!!

OK, we can do it, but oh will you pay. If they agree, what happens in instances like this is, the part is bought a passenger seat on a flight, it flies like a person 🙂 On the next available flight. And because most mid to big biz’s have in house travel agents, for business travel, it is then handed off to them and they book the part a seat on a regular passenger flight.

No, it doesn’t sit in the seat bought for it 🙂 The flight attendants hold it, it doesn’t go to cargo because it must get to it’s destination, will have someone waiting for it there, so the attendants keep it with them. And it might get to touch boobs too! The (possibly female) flight attendant might keep it in her uniform or shirt pocket.

And this happens often. A $10 part takes a $1,000 flight.

Something to ponder if you have an empty seat next to you on a plane. Wasn’t sold? It might’ve been sold, but it’s occupant is hanging out with the flight crew 🙂

Think of these machine parts, flying the friendly skies 😀 They’ll go first class too, if that’s the only flight available. What nice trips they have, and attractive flight attendants take special care of them 🙂

Dude. Just be a machine part.

And in remembering this, at this one factory I worked at, I remembered a “restaurant” that’d we’d have lunch at.

In quotes because I’m not sure you could really call it a restaurant. W side of Chicago, old industrial area. Down the street from the factory we worked at. On the nearest bigger commercial streets there were nice restaurants and fast food too. This, was some ‘hot dog place’.
Hey let’s go, it’s right over here. Er, ?

It was down the street in this industrial area, literally in an old warehouse. And in one corner of it they were making and selling hot dogs. And chips and pop and that was it. I don’t remember if there were even any tables or chairs in the place, there might’ve been, like some old plastic lawn furniture.

On the other side of this space, was a boxing ring.

It was quite weird. I guess they did boxing there on the weekends. Really weird. This huge empty space in an industrial area with a boxing ring and these people selling hot dogs in the corner.

And evidently they figured they could open up in the afternoons for the local lunch crowd.

Really good hot dogs, we started going there all the time 🙂
It was probably the inverse of “fancy” though. Really weird.

That building looks condemned!
No, hot dogs!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@Z&T

One of my mates works on a drilling ship. They survey the seabed prior to construction projects. He was on leave once when he got a call. He had to fly to West Africa, as did everyone else on leave. His company needed to ship out a replacement drill and they worked out it would be cheaper than regular air freight if they just got everyone to take bits of it as luggage.

Bina
2 years ago

@Faceball:

Things you are not an expert in:

Anything worth doing, really.

Things you are an expert in:

Wanking.

Please do that someplace else. Like, preferably, your own tear-stained bathroom.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
2 years ago

@Faceball:

Don’t believe David ever claimed to be an expert in any of those subjects. And I doubt you are, either. What David IS an expert in is schooling trolls (like yourself). Go away. Bother someone who cares about your obviously self-inflated opinion.

Z&T
Z&T
2 years ago

@ Alan R,

That’s the smart way!

“Seabeds” –

Our pal T here also has enviro sci and they got to go on research trips. Including doing core samples of Lake MI, where the ashes of “the great Chicago fire” were clearly visible. Back in the day they shoved all the burnt stuff right into the lake and you can still see this, I find this very interesting, and yet disturbing.

I want to know more, that’s about all she has to say about that trip.
Besides “I got violently seasick.”

Wanda
Wanda
2 years ago

Eh. Man has a somewhat dumb take on the internet. News at 11. :T

Honestly, sometimes I feel like people like to dump on people just cuz they’re bored or like to feel superior. Obviously this guy’s “proposal” will never happen, and he needs like four people to be like “dude, that’s a dumb idea and stop relying on women to be your therapist”. Instead it’s the Twitter machine, where everyone dive bombs on anyone who says something stupid because…reasons????? I don’t know who benefits from this.

This is why I don’t want to be on Twitter and why I think it’s mostly a garbage fire. Unless this guy is my friend, a relative, or a politician/powerful person, and unless he’s advocating for harmful policies or hate speech, I just don’t really care about what he has to say about anything, and honestly, I don’t even think what he said was “haha!” stupid. Just run of the mill het man stupid, which is like… *shrug*.

Also, I kind of resent the idea that anyone who needs to talk about their feelings and/or have in-depth conversations about things should see a therapist. Therapists are great, but in the real world, they’re expensive and only ever seem to have M-F 9-5 hours (speaking from personal experience looking for one… yeah, gave up on that real quick, lol), and wanting to talk about your feelings shouldn’t mean you need to find a professional. Sometimes you just wanna talk, man. :T I’d much rather open up to a friend than a random stranger I’ve paid, and there’s no guarantee that they’ll even be able to help me out. Granted, I do not want to open up to Hooters waitresses. I mean, unless they really want to hear about my theories about faith and how it relates to ego…? Right now I reserve this sort of thing for my dad. We can get crazy deep into it because we enjoy philosophical conversations.

Anyway, the only way Hooters is gonna make a comeback is if they have actual owls in the restaurant. On any food order you can order “fried chicken… or owl”, and if you order owl, an owl dive bombs at your head. That’d be fun, I think. Could get a few talons in some skulls but hey… OWLS!!!!!

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

@Katamount

One thing I think I saw on either BronxBlogger or Gwen_No_Fear was a discussion of this idea that “debate” is the best means of obtaining knowledge or testing the vigor of one’s worldview. It’s really not and never has been, but it’s even less so now with the YouTube model of response video cut-ups. There’s no referee to declare a winner; it’s all based on “the show.”

Oh my, yes. “Shapiro destroys leftist!!” “Harris utterly wrecks random person!!!” – a whole culture of pwnage that makes my brain want to die. “Just debate them if you’re so sure – or are you scared?” they shriek.

Jordles fans are the worst for this. I did recently say to one of them that winning a debate doesn’t mean that your position is right, or better – it just means you’re good at debating. His response was “that’s just sophist-rhetorical BS”.
Lolz.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Also, I kind of resent the idea that anyone who needs to talk about their feelings and/or have in-depth conversations about things should see a therapist. Therapists are great, but in the real world, they’re expensive and only ever seem to have M-F 9-5 hours (speaking from personal experience looking for one… yeah, gave up on that real quick, lol), and wanting to talk about your feelings shouldn’t mean you need to find a professional.

That doesn’t mean that women should be constantly on call to act as a therapist any time a man wants one though. The reason he was getting pushback is because that’s the assumption built into this guy’s ideal business model. That waitresses shouldn’t just serve food and drinks, but should also be willing to be a mommy and a girlfriend. And for a low, low price.

I agree that wanting someone to talk to or someone to listen to you doesn’t mean you have to find a therapist. But it also doesn’t mean it’s cool for you to foist yourself on an underpaid service employee. The expectation that it’s a woman’s job to provide emotional labor for men at all times is a huge part of patriarchy and it’s good for feminists to push back. Not mean.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
2 years ago

Hetairai. He means hetairai. Or geisha. By definition, such women do not come cheap.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Also, I kind of resent the idea that anyone who needs to talk about their feelings and/or have in-depth conversations about things should see a therapist.

They don’t. Emotional support can/should be found in many close relationships. Friends, family, partners, etc. In fact, it would be beneficial if society as a whole was more aware of the need for emotional support and labor, so that dudes are more likely to share in the work and women are more likely to actually be valued for the effort they are disproportionately expected to provide.

But if you want a complete stranger to provide you with unidirectional, attentive, supportive emotional labor in exchange for money, you are talking about a therapist.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

I’m sorry for posting yet again, and this is also quite OT (although it’s still on the theme of people saying Very Silly Things). Apparently Zendaya is in line to play Ariel in the live action remake of The Little Mermaid, and there are a lot of salty white people. This take has to be among the best, even if you allow that autocorrect was responsible for “melatonin”:

comment image

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

But a creature with a human respiratory system living underwater is totes logical.

occasional reader
occasional reader
2 years ago

> Weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Perhaps someone should open a business that platonically hooks guys up with other guys who just want conversation and emotional support.

Good idea. Let us create a bar called AVFMLounge, where Paul Elam serves drinks to men while giving them a Ear For Men (and drinking himself too) ! What could possibly go wrong ? 🙂
Just jocking, sorry. The idea in itself is good.
In France, we have some non-lucrative associations which are doing something a bit like that, like S.O.S. Amitié (Friendship), where people who feel alone can call to speak with someone (the caller does not choose the gender of the listener, if i am not wrong). The call is free, but they do not have the money to make a great promotion, so it is not really known, and they often lack of volunteers.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

Anyway, the only way Hooters is gonna make a comeback is if they have actual owls in the restaurant.

I just recently noticed “cat cafes” are popping up here in Helsinki. I presume the concept is already familiar to people living in more civilized and cosmopolitan locations.

Does America have magician restaurants?

A quick Google suggests there are restaurant magicians who you can hire but not a legerdemain-themed eatery.

IIRC, there’s a kink-friendly cafe named Wicked Grounds in San Francisco. That is, they don’t mind some roleplay among customers, and you can have any food/drink on the menu served in a pet bowl.

If we’re extrapolating from our personal interests, I’d say this is what millennials want.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

@Daniel Kashora

Then why are sperm whales (deep-sea mammals) dark-skinned? Checkmate. /s

I wonder if anyone else has made the observation that this would be the second time Zendaya will be playing a Disney-owned character who was originally a white redhead (the first being MJ from Spider-Man).

Re: owl cafes

At least one already exists in Japan.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Does the dolt not realise there’s a place like that already? A place where you can go, eat and drink, and talk about all sorts of shit, deep or silly.

Its called going out for a meal with friends.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
There are plenty of examples of dark skinned/scaled sea life,
its entirely reasonable that merpeople would have similar diversity to land dwelling humans but for different reasons in regards to skin/scale tone its also not something I would expect a whimsical musical for children to address scientifically.

@Z&T
I now have this humorous image of some random part sitting at the airport lounge before their flight and then striking up a conversation with a different kind of part in business class about their destinations,
might be a decent short film satirizing air travel.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

@Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Well I know cat cafes started as a Japanese thing,
people go to them and relax and play with the cats after work since a lot of apartments apparently prohibit pets or something,
a good cat cafe has places the cats can go and be alone when they need to so its more humane then the OP’s plan.

I remember hearing about some opening in California a while ago, they seem like something that would be tricky to keep compliant with health codes but less weird then maid cafes to most Americans.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
2 years ago

winning a debate doesn’t mean that your position is right, or better – it just means you’re good at debating.

Exactly, Mish! The mass-debaters pretend or claim that it’s dialectic, when in fact debate – especially in their terms – is really pure showmanship and points-scoring and has less than nothing to do with actually arriving at a better or truer understanding of some facet of reality. Discussing something in good faith with other good faith interlocutors (or consciously entertaining the best arguments for a position with which one disagrees, as Scildfreja spoke of in a recent thread) could hardly be more different from debate aka adversarial zero-sum word games (you could even say it’s the exact opposite).

It’s tricky enough with our human brains to do this “honestly” even in a non-adversarial situation, as Scild also pointed out – but in debate it’s not just effectively impossible, being honest is positively counter-productive given that debate isn’t even about facts, it’s just a game that’s all about winning. In practice, in the societies we live in, of course it’s a very useful skill to have! There’s naturally quite a lot of overlap between debate skills and expressing oneself well, and of course one can admire people who are good at it and who use their skills for good – there are many brilliant examples right here of people who use those and related skills to reject or turn around the terms of engagement that trolls want to use. But ultimately the way our societies elevate “debate” is to our detriment, since the very structure of it actively down-values any desire to reach a better understanding of anything. What kind of a game is it that you can win by deliberately obscuring what you know to be true? Nasty, pernicious, socially destructive brain-fungus :-(.

All of which is to say, really … what Mish said :-s

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

Uh… That mermaid thing… SO stupid… There really are lots of whales with dark skin! Maybe because they spend a lot of time near the surface, where I think water actually makes sunlight harder on your skin rather than protecting it? Or for some other reason.

This is a mermaid I’ve been drawing from time to time since I was a kid: http://dpossen.blogspot.com/2010/05/mina-sjojungfrur.html

She’s bald, because no mammal in the sea has long flowing hair (for obvious reasons). She’s got pointy teeth for eating little slippery fish. She’s fat, even on her head, to preserve heat in the cold water. Also, her tail is like a dolphin’s tail rather than a fish’s tail.

I came up with this mermaid design as a kid when I was thinking about what a mermaid should look like. Might seem boring to think that way instead of just rolling with pure fantasy, but I thought it was interesting, and it produced something original and different in the end.

Monzach
Monzach
2 years ago

There’s also the fact that the most badass animal in the high northern latitudes of the world, the polar bear, has not just dark, but black skin. 😀 The reason their fur, which is colorless, looks white, is the light refracting within the hairs. Basically, any claims that animals adapted to life in the arctic must be light-skinned is utter bunkum. 😀 Also there’s the little thing of a lot of the original nomadic peoples living within the Arctic Circle are, in fact, closer to the Mongolians than the Scandinavians in both culture and ethnicity. Slight things, no biggie… ^_^ (I wonder if my sarcasm is evident enough….)

Marshmallow Stacy Maximal (formerly bluecat)
Marshmallow Stacy Maximal (formerly bluecat)
2 years ago

There has been similar daftness over the idea of Idris Elba playing James Bond, with lots of angry white dudes saying “What’s next: a black Henry VIII? A white Martin Luther King?”

Both of whom, of course, were real people. As James Bond is not. He’s already been dark, Scots, Irish, blond and English.

Also Bond’s birth year is variously given in the original books as 1917, 1920, 1923. So if he were still with us I doubt he’d be leaping off tall buildings and firing guns while jet-skiing, or whatever he’s up to these days.

The in-universe explanation is that “James Bond” is a job title for whoever currently has the 007 listing… so why not?

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

What really takes the cake for me are the angry dudes who ranted on the internet about the Doctor in Doctor Who being female now, and presenting themselves as concerned fans, despite clearly haven’t watched the show. I mean some angry dudes probably had, but others ranted away without knowing such basic facts as the Doctor regenerating into a new body from time to time.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

Re: Idris Elba as James Bond

Not happening, sadly. Daniel Craig is still Bond in the upcoming film.

The in-universe explanation is that “James Bond” is a job title for whoever currently has the 007 listing… so why not?

That’s the in-universe explanation? Doesn’t make much sense considering that we see the headstones of James Bond’s birth parents and his family home gets blown up in Skyfall, and we learn that he was subsequently taken in by Blofeld’s father in Spectre. (Oh yeah, spoilers I guess.)