By David Futrelle
If you were to ask one Reddit’s self-described “involuntary celibates” just why they were celibate, they would probably give you an answer something like this: Because I’m ugly and short and a socially awkward loser, and in today’s terrible world “Chads” get all the chicks — though back in the good old days I would have been assigned a wife through some sort of arranged marriage or something and thus I wouldn’t be alone and mad and, oh, by the way, women are a bunch of worthless whores.
Apparently these views are held pretty widely on Reddit. In a new paper, Menelaos Apostolou, an Associate Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Cyprus’ University of Nicosia, looked at a Reddit mega-thread devoted to the question: “Guys, why are you single?”
With help from several other researchers, Apostolou sorted and categorized the 13,429 comments that attempted to directly answer the question, discovering that dateless Reddit dudes were most likely to conclude that they were dateless because they were ugly and/or short and/or socially awkward losers. Typical comments included:
Cause I am ugly as fuck and have been cursed with awful genetics.
Being under 6′0″ means I am invincible to women.
Because I have massive self-esteem issues, I think I’m worthless, and I don’t do social things because I don’t want to inflict my stupid, worthless presence on other people.
If I remotely have a crush on you I’m probably gonna be really fucking awkward.
Sounds a bit like the Braincels subreddit, minus the extreme misogyny.
It’s not clear how many respondents, if any, commented on “Chad’s” relative dating success, but Apostolou felt the need to inject it into the discussion, not as an incel obsession but as a simple statement of fact, declaring that “men who are … good looking may choose not to commit to a long-term relationship, but choose instead to have many different casual relationships.” (Guess what, dude? Men who are not conventionally attractive can do that too.)
Apostolou also brings up the arranged marriage issue, noting that men who are bad at flirting suffer in the contemporary world, in which people seek out partners themselves. “We can ask whether in a pre-industrial context, where marriages were arranged and/or male-male competition was strong, these same men would be single,” Apostolou writes,
The answer is most probably no. Flirting skills were irrelevant because men did not have to flirt with women: Wives were either provided by parents or obtained through force.
No wonder so many guys today are bad at flirting, Apostolou suggests: Evolution hasn’t prepared them for it!
[I]n an ancestral pre-industrial context, the selection pressures on flirting skills would be weak, resulting in many of our ancestors having poor capacity for flirting. This capacity has passed to contemporary generations who live in post-industrial societies.
And they. Apostolou suggests, are kind of screwed.
Apostolou isn’t just reporting what Reddit dudes think are the reasons they can’t get dates. He’s basically accepting their explanations as fact, and adding some convenient “evo psych” rationales to buttress their arguments. He’s taking the skewed perceptions of Reddit’s single men and treating them like scientific insights.
He is certainly aware that a Reddit thread is not a scientific or demographically representative survey, and that there is no proof that any of the answers given are actually true. He mentions both of these issues in his paper. But in the end he concludes that most of the respondents were probably telling the truth and that’s good enough for him. “We think … that most people have an accurate understanding of what drives them to be single,” he writes, “so this is not a major bias.”
Really? Because after spending nearly ten years reading (if not always posting on) Reddit, with much of my attention in recent years devoted to incels and MGTOWs and other dudes who can’t find dates (or who claim that they don’t want to), I would have to say that I am a little bit less convinced that Reddit dudes “have an accurate understanding of what drives them to be single.”
Well, that was a bit of deliberate understatement. I’m convinced that a pretty hefty chunk of Reddit’s single men have no fucking clue why they’re single. Incels are convinced that they are too ugly to date women, who only want to date the absolute handsomest of men. Neither of these things are true. When incels post pictures of themselves online to “prove” to the world what horrible ugly freaks they are, most of them look just fine. And women date less-than-perfect-looking guys all the time.
Hell, some of the most romantically successful guys I’ve known have included a pudgy goofball with a weird baby face, a guy with a cleft palate, and a short grouchy schlub who rarely shaved. A former roommate basically lived the life of an incel until his mid-twenties when he suddenly found himself dating a series of women most people would have assumed were out of his league. (And no, he didn’t learn “game”; this was more than a decade before any of that crap.) A friend of one of my close relatives is happily married to a lovely woman even though his face was burnt off by acid when he was four.
Some of these guys succeeded because they’re smart and funny and confident and genuinely decent people; the others, well, I’ve never been able to figure out what women see in them. But they share one thing in common: Seeing only their pictures, Incels would classify them all as ugly “subhumans” destined to spend their lives alone. And they would be wronger than wrong.
Apostolou’s study was posted online only a few days ago by the journal Evolutionary Psychological Science (note to self: do not subscribe to Evolutionary Psychological Science), and it’s already being discussed in the subreddits populated by Reddit’s angriest single men — where it’s seen as belated scientific proof for the incel worldview.
Not that they’ve given Apostolou much credit for coming to the same conclusions they came to long ago. While some took issue with the way the study was being framed — in a way that focused on the social awkwardness issue and downplayed the issue of looks (the incel obsession) — others complained that it was little more than a restatement of what to them seemed obvious.
Pointing to Apostolou’s discussion of arranged marriages, one Braincels commenter sneered: “I have been saying this for YEARS you hack.”
“Another groundbreaking study from the academic journal of No Shit, Sherlock” wrote a commenter in r/ForeverAlone.
If your “scientific” study simply reiterates the accepted, er, “wisdom” of some of the internet’s most hateful and deluded men, you might want to think twice about publishing it. Hell, you should probably reconsider your entire career.
“Hell, you should probably reconsider your entire career.” – pretty much true of everyone in EvoPsych.
@Moggie:
Legacy of Genghis Khan and subsequent cultures like the Ilkhanate?
@Scildfreja
This is what I was afraid of. Granted, the academic racists were inside the gates already, but I was hoping that publishers like Springer would have the standards to see through nonsense journals such as this.
@Mish
Yeah, I really don’t think they have the attention span to realize that they aren’t the first ones to experience basic things like emotions.
Holy snackers! I spent a lot of time o the ingels subreddit and these guys have ZERO self awareness. They need help but either don’t have access or are convinced that everyone else is the problem. They’d do picture threats now and again and they were mostly normal looking guys who could be leading normal lives if they didnt exude hate and selfloathing from every pore.
I’d expect something like this from Elsevier, where quantity is Job 1, but it’s somewhat more surprising coming from Springer…
… oh, my….
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/are-jews-white-a-judge-tries-to-answer-the-question-in-a-messy-lawsuit.html
I know a guy who us UGLY. Remember the guy who was the disguise for the alien “Mikey” in the first part of Men in Black? The big Hispanic guy? My friend looks a lot like that.
I’ve had a crush on him for years, but have never made any moves on him because he is married–to an absolutely gorgeous woman. We are talking those silly incel’s idea of a ten. And no, my friend is not wealthy, far from it. She makes roughly twice what he does. They’ve been married for more than 20 years.
So to all those incels out there. It’s not your looks. Sure there are silly women who care about such things, but they are actually fairly rare once they are out of their teens.
The reason you aren’t getting any dates is because you don’t actually like women. You have no interest in them as people, you are just looking for a warm place to stick your dick. And women can tell. Most women older than about 15 can tell. That’s why you can’t get a date.
@ Victorious Parasol
How about this for a love poem:
Short, amazing imagery. Wonderful, right? Especially since it was written roughly 2500 years ago. By Plato.
Being under 6.0″ means I’m invincible to women
LOL! I don’t think incels are invincible, but what does my lady brain know?
@ otrame
I’ll see your 500BC and raise you 2000BC 🙂
Sumerian love letter, from when Tindr was on clay tablets
While I was reading the comments, this came on the news program I was watching (The Beat on MSNBC). According to PlentyOfFish 34% of their users would choose bad sex for the rest of their lives over dating a Trump supporter. Pay attention to that incels.
@Yutolia, The Green Hash Thing
Oops, my bad. That’s what I get for not really paying attention to the abstracts when skimming.
TW for violent transphobia:
This is the worst thing I’ve read in a while
http://www.towleroad.com/2018/08/hunting-season/
Poor kid. I hope the cops get their shit together and arrest the people who made violent threats. But it’s Oklahoma, so I’m not that hopeful.
On the contrary, I’ve always thought James Cagney conveyed a certain appealing vulnerability beneath his tough-guy exterior. Not sure whether his <6’ height had anything to do with it either way…
@otrame and Alan
Bravo!
@Katherine the Adequate
“LOL! I don’t think incels are invincible …”
Only to sense, empathy, and humanity.
@ Violet the Vile,
“It might be because I am a bit tired this morning, but I cannot stop watching that dog gif.
It’s hypnotic.”
Me too, ha 🙂
@Moggie:
OMG, that pun just made my day.
Also, apropos kidnap-marriages: Apparently that’s a custom among the Hmong of Laos. Or at least, it’s made to LOOK like one, even if the bride knows in advance that her paramour is about to abduct her. So there goes one more “traditional” anti-incel trick that ain’t…
@Violet the Vile @Z&T
Me three, but largely because I have a great soft spot for Westies since I grew up with one.
Even granting these geniuses all their unfounded unstated assumptions, their speculations don’t make any sense. Why/how/why/WHY would women ever have evolved to appreciate flirting so much if all pre-industrial societies strictly prevented it from ever being in any way useful in choosing a good mate?
re: “kidnap marriages”
There were still cases of it in Southern Italy when I lived there (1988 – 94). Sometimes it was pre-arranged between the couple, sometimes it decidedly was not.
There was one fairly well-reported case where the kidnapper did not managed to rape the kidnappee, so had returned her to her family.
She sued him, partly in order to get it on record that no rape had occurred, because she would have been deemed “spoiled” otherwise.
As for the Laotian Hmong “marriage by abduction”, I’ve read that the villages are surrounded by cabins where couples can hang out. Everyone knows they’re there – everyone helped build them for exactly that purpose – but the family of the girl are supposed to pretend to believe she’s been abducted by a tiger instead (even though there haven’t been any tigers in the vicinity for decades), to save face over the thought she might want to leave them.
The go-between has to do a “good news, bad news” act in order to open negotiations: good news – she hasn’t been eaten, bad news – she wants to get married. The family traditionally refuses to believe them three times before they start discussing anything. I’ve always thought it was psychologically quite pleasing.
“Hello! I think you’re subhuman scum unworthy of basic human dignity and every interaction we have conveys how much I despise you. Can I get a date? Not because I’m even interested in you specifically, I just want a notch on my Date Belt to brag about with other guys.”
Marshmallow Stacy Maximal @:
I once overheard a conversation on a bus in which someone was explaining to a friend that her people had formerly conducted marriage-by-abduction, and that this was now commemorated by a tradition in which the night before the wedding, the groom’s family and friends *burgled* the bride’s parents’ house, stealing whatever wasn’t nailed down and ransoming it back to the other family at the wedding reception, with the proceeds going to the newlyweds. As this was now a tradition rather than an actual B&E, the bride’s parents were expected to leave their doors unlocked on the appropriate date.
I don’t know if I’m right, but when I see comments like this:
I begin to realise how incels come to be. For the sake of brevity, I’ve struggled with depression & anxiety all my life, and my childhood left me with a simultaneous need for complete social isolation to protect myself, and an immense craving for intimacy & companionship. I think the key difference, though, is that the self-loathing it left me with is, in my case, all directed internally. I don’t like myself, and see myself as someone that isn’t worth other people’s time / effort, but I’ve never lashed out at those people for feeling this way about myself.
I think an incel reaches that point (for whatever reason), and lashes out instead; it’s all women’s fault because they’re evil, or because of chad, or whatever.
Just a thought, but it fits what I’ve seen. And, ultimately, there but for the grace of whatever deity covers this stuff, go I.
Why is the vast majority white cishet dudes? There’s a lot more to it. If social isolation and craving intimacy were the main factors, we would see disproportionate representation of marginalized people, wouldn’t we?