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Are we being too mean to incels who laugh at murdered ten-year-olds? One concerned ex-SJW says yes

A memorial for ten-year-old Julianna Kozis, who lost her life in Sunday’s mass shooting in Toronto

By David Futrelle

On Monday, I wrote about the gleeful reaction some commenters on the Incels.me forum had to news that one of the victims in Sunday’s mass shooting in Toronto was a ten-year-old girl.

Yesterday, I found a lengthy comment in the We Hunted the Mammoth moderation queue from a gentleman who thought that the “virtue signaling” commenters here were being too harsh towards the incels celebrating this girl’s death.

I didn’t let the comment through, but I thought I would share it here as a kind of extreme example of an argument a lot of people have been making about incels.

The would-be commenter, calling himself Skynet0225, began by accusing the commenters here of self-righteous cruelty:

Interesting responses on this subject, mostly by those who identify themselves as leftist on the political/social spectrum. A handicap I shed many years ago. The liberals of old would have sought to understand what could possibly drive a human being to express such shockingly hateful ideations. But they all died long ago I suppose, supplanted by the self righteousness of the modern SJW.

As you read the rest of his comment, you may notice just a teensy bit of self-righteousness from Mr. Skynet0225 himself.

Most of those spouting this nonsense, at least 95% are being extremely provocative to garner attention. They damn well know what they’re saying is disgusting, maybe even to themselves as the words escape their fingertips and into the great interube void. Raging silently they listen for an echo, either approbation or repudiation will suffice. Any human contact, repugnant hatred or a questioning curiosity will do. 

There are several problems with this rather ancient “just kidding” argument, For one thing, I’m not quite sure there is much of a moral or practical distinction between someone who responds with glee to the news of a ten-year-old being murdered and someone who pretends to feel glee because he knows it will disturb people; in either case he is a moral monster and is making the world a worse place for everyone.

Second of all, these guys have been making these same arguments for years in forums mostly read by others who agree with them, none of whom are particularly shocked (or impressed) to see one of their compatriots say something like this.  And many of the commenters I quote in these sorts of articles have posted hundreds or even thousands of comments to Incels.me and other forums. My guess is that very few of them can be considered trolls in any meaningful sense. This is quite likely what they honestly believe.

None of you have experienced life in their skin, but you see fit to pass judgement, which is not really surprising because that’s what most of you empty heads do 24/7.

Not true. Incels see themselves as special snowflakes of suffering, dealing with problems no one else has faced. But it’s not true. Hundreds of millions of people — including many of those commenting here — have deal with depression and anxiety bad enough to be diagnosed as such, and every single person who has ever lived has felt loneliness. I’ve been dealing with chronic, sometimes quite severe, depression and anxiety for most of my life; during one particularly bad year in grad school I felt so fragile and empty that any slightly awkward conversation would send me rushing home fighting back tears. Many of the commenters here — and many other people in my life — have dealt with worse.

Yes, most incels are dealing with serious shit. That does not excuse their abhorrent views.

Virtue signalling on cue, forever seeking the next oppressed class or cause to champion, no matter how banal or venal.

Feeling sad or angry about the murder of a ten-year-old isn’t “virtue signaling” nor is it “banal or venal.” It’s a basic human reaction to a genuine tragedy.

Which is not to say that some of these guys are not truly dangerous. They surely are, as I’ve little doubt that 5% are the pool that school shooters are drafted from, and some times monsters of an even worse nature. 

I suspect it is quite a bit higher than 5%. Anyone who willingly steeps themselves in incel culture has the potential to turn violent. Some regulars on the forum brag about groping and otherwise assaulting random women. Already at least two men heavily influenced by incel culture have gone on mass killing sprees.

The weakest of their number are the most vulnerable, and the most dangerous. Seems to me that maybe reaching out to these guys would be the prudent course, the most humane to someone who as of yet has done no harm, but is a deeply wounded creature trying to make sense out of the world around them and experiencing ever diminishing results. You never know the power of a kind word, a voice from the darkness to hang on, that it will get better, maybe even a reference to someone who could help.

People have been “reaching out” to incels for years. They’ve invariably been met with hostility and sometimes harassment. One of the basic tenets of incel ideology is that nothing — not therapy, not medication, not even the most basic self-help techniques — can help incels at all. When the topic comes up on incel forums, the response is generally something like this comment, found on the Braincels subreddit:

blackpillnormieI h8 lying hypocritical whores 14 points 2 months ago Go to a place where you'll spend your money in exchange of some normie's time where you'll tell your problems and he'll try to bluepill you again or turn you into a medicated zombie. In the end therapy doesn't work, years of it won't change your facial bone sctructre.

A few have gone further; I ran across one commenter on the now-banned Incels subreddit who thought that “conning [incels] into “therapy” should also be a stoneable offense.”

Still others have argued against medication because in their mind it is “too fucking effective,”  threatening “to turn even the most suicidally depressed men into tax contributing good goys [sic].”

This is a bad thing, this particular incel argued, because

Depression like all other state of minds has a purpose. It is meant to hurt, weaken, and ultimately kill you. Trimming the fat from society so to speak. It is in the benefit of all to let the weak and disabled die off.

Only a small fraction of incels are open to help, and none of them hang out on Icels.me. As for the rest, I honestly have no idea how to reach these people. If you know some magic way that allows you to somehow get past this huge mountain of toxic bullshit, by all means go ahead and minister to them. I’m going to devote my attention to others who are more open to, and frankly, more deserving of, help.

Perhaps not as satisfying as a good old fashioned public denouncement, but maybe more productive. Even humane.

Mr. Skynet0225, I eagerly await your forthcoming report on all the incels you have saved from themselves.

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Victorious Parasol
Victorious Parasol
2 years ago

Every time I see this kind of material, the incels’ own words on display, I think, “They don’t want to be helped. They want to keep on raging.”

Maybe some of them do want help and would be willing to work on getting better (whatever “better” would mean for them). But we can’t go fishing for those guys. How can we tell the difference between someone who’s willing to take help vs someone who fakes wanting help? We’ve already seen too many incels who are willing to kill random strangers.

I feel sorry for people who are lonely or damaged or whatever, but I feel no obligation to rescue them from themselves. I do feel obliged to try and contribute to a society where toxic masculinity is replaced by more positive models of masculinity. There was a thread going around Twitter earlier today about what makes non-toxic men feel more manly. Some great responses from men about working out so they have an easier time carrying their kids or their nieces/nephews, or helping people with their groceries. Or comments about doing things for their families.

calmdown
calmdown
2 years ago

I’ve seen a lot of “we are being bullied” crap from Incels lately. (I was surprised to learn that apparently women not having sex with you is a form of bullying!) They use this to try and justify being not only anti-women but pro-murder. They know damn well that lots of people (including many of the “SJWs” they always complain about) are bullied and nobody ever gave a shit about them but yet they never advocate terrorism. I’m so done with these people, and anyone who says I need to feel sorry for them.

lkeke35
lkeke35
2 years ago

You cannot help those who do not want your help. It’s just that simple. They don’t want it, and they even demonize getting help and/or getting better. They would prefer to wallow in their toxic sludge echo chambers.

I’m not even saying their pain isn’t a real thing. They’re certainly feeling something, and it’s very unpleasant. But their pain has metastasized into this cancerous tumor that allows them to giddily celebrate the death of a little girl, and feel nothing wrong with that, and even going so far as to disdain the compassion that the rest of us feel.

There is NO HELP for someone like that.

They have to want to be helped first, but all they want is to be catered to by women Who don’t want them in any way, , and for some of them, calling themselves incels is just an excuse to openly spew hatred against women. They despise something they very badly want to have. It’s the very definition of sour grapes.

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
2 years ago

God, this guy’s pretentious. I’m still learning this lesson myself, but Skynet needs to understand something important: purple prose doesn’t make you look clever, it makes you look obnoxious. If you “dumb down” your writing a little, you actually look smarter!

Also, I want to point you all to Hbomberguy’s video on virtue signaling because it’s great. He points out how it’s basically used as an ad hominem – instead of attacking the substance of an idea, you accuse your opponent of being insincere. Give it a watch!

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

I really hope that the friends or family of this little girl or of the other victims didn’t run across this nasty little corner of the internet. Or for that matter anyone else who has lost a child or adult to violent crime.

It is widely believed that the loss of a child is one of the worst things that can happen to a person. Imagine if in addition to the loss you then learned that people were celebrating the death. As David pointed out in his post, it really doesn’t matter if it was in jest or not.

I know other people have said this many times, but I am beginning to wonder just how much actual pain and tragedy these guys have truly experienced as the genuine article tends to make people more compassionate and aware of the suffering of others, not less.

Kivutar
Kivutar
2 years ago

Is it just me or does Mr. Skynet’s bloviating sound suspiciously like a Jordan Peterson cultist?

Dr. Thang
Dr. Thang
2 years ago

By odin’s balls, what an insufferably pretentious fake intellectual. I’m always in awe of people who accuse anyone who criticizes misogynistic bullshit as “virtue signalling”, while they go on to pander to manbabies with forced concern and calls for undeserved compassion as if that’s not a prime example of actual virtue signalling.
I think it’s safe to say that all of us, better than anyone else, fully understand why incels are like this, which is exactly why we have no compassion for them. There’s no mystery there, but even if there was, the bottom line is, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for their behavior. There is no backstory tragic enough to make celebrating the murder of children acceptable.
And hey, Skynet0225, I sincerely hope you are reading this because I want to make something as clear as possible. Despite your claims that none of us “experienced life in their skin”, I was a virgin for far longer than most of them. Hell, I’ve seen incels who are still under 18, meanwhile I was a virgin until 28. So I know exactly how they feel, and that’s one of the reasons why I have exactly 0 compassion for them. I was in the exact same place as them, but I never blamed women for it, I never had a delusional view of how the world works, I always accepted responsibility for my faults, and I didn’t only blame things that I couldn’t change as an excuse to not work on improving myself. And I’m not the only one, I’ve known other men who have been in the same place, but were never anything like incels.
Being a decent human being is easy, it takes some effort sometimes, but it’s still easy. Blaming everyone else and not accepting any responsibility yourself, however, is even easier. They chose the latter. They don’t deserve any sympathy for that.

Robert
Robert
2 years ago

So it’s possible to be both a berk *and* a wanker.

Nym
Nym
2 years ago

I have gone right into the Braincels subreddit and attempted to talk reason when I think I see an opening.
If you respond to all of their bile with calm and diplomacy and refuse rise to whatever bait they throw your way and refuse to become nasty yourself, they just escalate and escalate. Sometimes they vacillate between wheedling self pity, condescension, and vile insults but in all modes of operation they just keep throwing bullshit at you to see if they can get a rise. This is true also when you run into them on unrelated subs where they reveal themselves for what they are in some thread.

All this aside, these people still exist in the real world even if they are a walking cliche and spend an inordinate amount of time in a basement. Many if not most of them are school age and must necessarily spend hours of their day interacting with other humans.
Young people can be unbelievably cruel but I would bet actual money that various people at various times during these people’s forays into the physical world have been “a kind word, or a voice from the darkness”. But they spend so much time building a prism of hate and warped imagination to view people through, that they don’t even register.
They’d as soon spit in the face of the kind stranger they encounter in passing or the compassionate school guidance counselor as notice the kindness extended to them.
It won’t stop me from being respectful and reasonable with people but Mr.Skynet wants to put them in a vacuum and absolve them of the responsibility to notice when someone defies their cynical expectations. Fuck that noise.

Miss Cobalt
Miss Cobalt
2 years ago

Dear skynet,

There is no such thing as being too mean to people who cheer the death of a child

Fuck you

Dreamer
Dreamer
2 years ago

“Walk a mile in their shoes,” skynet says. But forget about the murdered child? Um, no. I’ve been bullied, depresssed, etc. It was never sufficient to make me gloat over the murder of others.

Tony Thompson
Tony Thompson
2 years ago

Well, he sounds like a joy.
In that pompous, self-righteous, deeply ignorant, apathetic kinda way.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Nthing everyone who’s already noted the ridiculous, pretentious prose of our “ex-SJW” friend.
@Kivutar, could be a lobster fan, certainly, especially given the incel sympathy, although tbf I’ve seen this kind of pretension in a whole range of alt-right, MRA/MGTOW, stemlord, etc. etc. types.

And here we go again with what are now very familiar themes:

1. demanding that we prioritise the pain of people who hate us and actively wish us harm.
2. using the term “virtue-signalling” to refer to basic human compassion (scary how successful that re-branding has been)

The point about depression from one of the incels quoted is just deeply baffling to me, though.

Depression like all other state of minds has a purpose. It is meant to hurt, weaken, and ultimately kill you. Trimming the fat from society so to speak. It is in the benefit of all to let the weak and disabled die off.

Why would they frame it in this way when they’re presumably referring to incels’ depression? I thought we were the weak ones. Do they actually mean that incels should die off?
(obv I’m not even dealing with how wildly wrong this notion of depression is in the first place).

Iseult The Idle
Iseult The Idle
2 years ago

The root of incel is narcissism, and the root of narcissism is self hatred.

Everyone, or everyone I know, has gone through dry spells or felt unlovable at times. However, no one I know has felt entitled to a romantic relationship or to sex. In fact, that’s usually the problem!

When I read Elliot Rodger’s screed, the thing that kept jumping out at me was that yes, he was in a lot of pain; but his pain was based in jealousy and entitlement. He hated happy people, because he felt like they were happy to spite him, personally. They were rubbing his face in their contentment. It was all about him, whether they noticed him or not.

That’s narcissism in a nutshell. He was in therapy and it didn’t help, because he never acknowledged that the problem was in him.

So, you know. They can muddle along however they want. I’ll be staying well out of their way, over here. And I’ll be doing what I can to help people who can benefit from my help.

Oh, and I don’t believe for an instant that this person, Skynetwhatever, ever saw the world in a more compassionate way.

Diptych
Diptych
2 years ago

@Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Why would they frame it in this way when they’re presumably referring to incels’ depression? I thought we were the weak ones. Do they actually mean that incels should die off?

Yeah, looking at that post, their argument doesn’t make much sense. They seem to be arguing that their own misery and death are at once natural and essential, and an artificial construct maintained sadistically by society. As always, their ideology is neither consistent nor logical.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ mish

Do they actually mean that incels should die off?

There is a thread of quasi eugenics with some incels. It’s their who’s the most ‘sub-human’ thing. They post about how incel genes should be purged from society.

When it’s pointed out their parents couldn’t have been incel, they say that’s because before feminism, women had to settle for their ‘looks match’, and everybody paired off.

(You will recall that there were no single people in the 90s)

TB Tabby
TB Tabby
2 years ago

Every single one of us has reached out to incels at some point. They have had every chance to leave the life they claim is just SOOOOO damn worse than what anyone else is going through. But every single time we offer them a hand in friendship and kindness, they slap it away, screaming “fuck off, normie” or “that won’t get me laid!”

This comment sums up the incel’s problem succinctly:

Well I tried it against my will recently and it was a joke. This roastie just made me talk about my life while looking bored as hell.

Therapy against the subject’s will seldom works, but even so, don’t you people want us to listen to you?

Then she told me to go play MTG at the cardshop and look people in the eye. That was her only advice the whole session.

And even this small piece of advice, one which would cost you nothing, was rejected out of hand. Even looking people in the eye is a step too far for incels, trapped in a prison of their own design that they refuse to leave even though the cell door was wide open.

Therapy, mental illnesses, and medicine are all scams perpetrated by the Jews in the JewPill industry trying to get you hooked to their services by telling you there’s something wrong with you!

After not even trying to take the very simple steps the therapist advised, he concludes the whole thing is a scam with a dollop of anti-semitism to boot. How are we supposed to help people so damn determined to stay right where they are?!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Did Skynet read into the archives at all? Because we’ve “sought to understand what could possibly drive a human being to express such shockingly hateful ideations” plenty around here. After the 1000th post about these miscreants, there’s not much else to do but mock. See, we’ve sought to understand, and found that entitlement is a big part of the incel mindset, and coddling them doesn’t help them. It makes them worse.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

@Dr. Thang:

work on improving myself

I often hear this mentioned in various places as how lonely men (“incel”-identifying or otherwise) can improve their chances with women. The concept seems itself to be at least somewhat problematic (though not nearly as problematic as the toxicity of the incels).

For those who harbor attitudes toward women and/or the world that are destructive and misogynistic, especially the incels, adjusting that worldview is clearly necessary if they are to be even decent human beings, let alone potentially attract a partner.

On the other hand, plenty of people who don’t harbor such attitudes apparently lack much luck in dating as well. You, it seems, included, at least in the past. The issue being, the only further “self-improvement” that seems to be possible once one has their head screwed on straight (preferably “is a feminist ally” but at the very least “is not an avowedly misogynistic troglodyte”) is the expensive sort. In particular the advice at sites like Dr. Nerdlove seem to assume a middle class, maybe even upper middle class income and quantity of spare time. Buy natty (read: expensive) clothes. Spend an extra 30 minutes on personal grooming a day (read: while consuming assorted expensive products, such as aftershaves). Go to a nice (read: sit-down, and preferably expensive sit-down) restaurant as a proposed date, rather than “Netflix and chill”. And so on, and so forth. One of the articles there would likely have convinced me that Dr. Nerdlove was a shill, had all the stuff he suggested buying been from one single company rather than about two dozen separate ones.

Meanwhile the average Joe can’t afford any restaurant fancier than McDonald’s and can’t afford to spend an extra 30 minutes a day on personal grooming, in between juggling McJob#1, McJob#2, and McJob#3 and keeping up on any other responsibilities he might have.

I am therefore curious: what did you do to improve yourself, sometime shortly before you turned 28 … and how many dollars did it entail spending? I don’t think it’s a huge improvement to replace misogyny with classism. And I’m not even sure it would be a replacement. Advice that boils down to “you have to look and smell like money to land a date” implies an old misogynistic trope, “all women are, deep down and even if they don’t admit it, gold-diggers”.

So, a non-misogynistic self-improvement can’t be “spend enough money that you look like you’ve spent a lot of money”, and at the same time, “don’t be a misogynist” is clearly insufficient if you had a decade-long “dry spell” while not being a misogynist. It’s also, sadly, not necessary, as every case of male-on-female intimate partner violence demonstrates. Misogynists it seems can land dates … sometimes, it seems, better than nonmisogynists can. Just as long as they are the “right” sort of misogynists, the “charmers” rather than the misanthropic nihilist sort. Which isn’t to say women prefer misogynists — that would itself be a misogynistic statement. But the “charmer” misogynists disrespect women enough to lie to them and pretend to them in various ways to, well, charm them. In essence, they’re willing to “cheat” which gives them an edge over an honest non-misogynist. Or something like that.

The whole thing seems problematic. There does seem to be a subset of men that women show little interest in, on average (of course all women are different, with individual tastes, but if these are such that guy 1 gets completely ignored by 65% of women and guy 2 gets ignored by 95%, and the two of them walk into a bar with four women, guess which one is probably going to have a date and which one almost certainly won’t by the end of the evening?), and there is definitely a subset of them for whom it’s not because they are leaking red-flag goo all over the place in a little slime trail everywhere they go (past!Dr. Thang apparently being one such non-red-flagging one), and not only isn’t “doll yourself up expensively” an affordable self-improvement option for most of this subset, for those whom it is, the marginal additional women attracted will be the small fraction of women who actually are gold-diggers … probably not the ones you want to be attracting.

There is one other piece of advice I’ve seen mentioned, infrequently, here at WHTM, which was that people stewing in some basement somewhere need to cultivate an interest or hobby and get out more. AFAIK, though, interests and hobbies seem to be more or less fixed in adulthood … if you’re 25 and you’re bored by something, you’ll probably always be bored by that something. So someone Dr. Thang’s age is probably stuck with what hobbies they’ve got, and not all of them are conducive to being done socially. Oh, and doing any hobby sort of thing socially, rather than solitary, has an unfortunate tendency to … start costing a lot of extra money, for transportation and membership fees of various sorts. That gets added to whatever the hobby’s fundamental costs already were for materials and tools, of course. Which makes joining that woodworking or birdwatching club another middle-class option that is probably not workable for Joe Proletariat with his three McJobs, two hours a week of non-eating, non-sleeping, non-working free time, and twenty dollars a week of discretionary spending capacity after rent, utilities, transportation to and from all three jobs, and so on, and so forth … Sure, he can save those weekly twenties for a month or two and get some binoculars, and plonk down one more twenty for a field guide, and presto! he’s a birdwatcher, but not a social one. An $80 a month birdwatching club membership fee will leave him with zero spending cash left over for anything else … including the $40 taxi ride out to the house on Rural Road 13, 8 miles from the nearest bus stop, where they will be meeting next Tuesday.

So: what exactly is this mythical “self-improvement” that men can do, beyond “don’t wallow in festering anger and wind up an incel”? I can’t think of anything that’s a realistic option for Joe Proletariat there, or even for a variant of him who has much more idle time but still no money to speak of.

It obviously doesn’t help that neoliberal capitalism has pretty much eliminated from existence any kind of hangouts where someone won’t eventually demand that you buy something or leave; or that that sort of hangout seemed to come in two limited varieties anyway, the for-teens sort (mall, arcade, outside the cinema) and the for-parents sort (dog park, play-structure-park). Hangouts for 20-something adults all charge money (bars, clubs) and hangouts for older adults are for married couples, not singles. Well, until the shuffleboard table at the local nursing home. Which suggests if you haven’t amassed a circle of friends and gotten married by about 30, and aren’t bourgeoisie, then you’ll get your next chance to meet new people sometime around when you turn 65…all of this seems to reflect a society that is still designed, to the extent that you can call it “designed”, around the assumption that nearly everyone will marry by 30, even though that’s now woefully out of date! And around the assumption that the bulk of people will be homeowners with 9-to-5 jobs, evenings and weekends off, and a hundred-plus dollars of discretionary income a week by 30, whether in a white-collar job or a good, unionized blue-collar one … which is equally outdated.

Oh, of course there’s also meeting people online, but that divides into two starkly separated subsets: the geographically unavailable, and dating sites. The former is “everywhere that’s not a dating site” and the people you’ll meet will be in Australia, England, Brazil, and every other country in the world where you aren’t. The latter is limited to dating so no networking and building up platonic friends that way, and of course has been so toxified by misogynists that you’ll probably have a hard time finding a real live actual woman there, let alone convincing her you aren’t just one more of the toxic misogynists. (Fembots, used to make the site appear to have more women signed up than it really does, on the other hand can be expected to be plentiful.) And I saw the Dr. Nerdlove advice for using dating sites and was horrified. It basically went into how, at the cost of turning OKCupid into a (fourth?) full-time job, you could basically powergame the thing with strategic (read: dishonest, much of the time) answers to questions. How to make a perfect profile photo. Etc. … Oh, and of course this additional full-time job has a negative contribution to your income. All told, I estimated following the advice given there would cost a dozen plus hours a week and at least $300 (for the supposedly “free” dating site!) of money on everything from snazzy clothes (again) to having a professional photo taken in an actual studio. Oh, but of course someone could just wing it … in a dog-eat-dog competition with every lonely man in some large radius, some subset of whom are powergaming it in one way or another. So, even “free” somehow becomes hypercompetitive and, in its own way, neoliberal.

OK this has turned into something of a ramble. The TL;DR is: 1) I don’t empathize with misanthropic misanthropes who hate everyone and everything (and especially hate women) and refuse any kind word or the very idea of bettering their condition; but 2) I also don’t see how a non-misogynist with a dearth of dates (or even just a dearth of friends) can better their condition that doesn’t look something like: 1) Start socialist revolution, 2) Win socialist revolution, 3) Now you can better your condition without having to first win the birth lottery to be a member of the bourgeoisie, or else win the actual pick-six-numbers lottery lottery.

Which brings me back to the original question, Dr. Thang: How, exactly, did you do it, if you don’t mind my asking? Or did you just have (or luck into) money to spend? In hindsight what would you say you improved about you between then and now, and what did that entail?

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

@Diptych, @Alan
As Alan’s comment demonstrates, I had failed to take into account how the incel ‘worldview’ happily combines self-hatred & nihilism with an unshakeable sense of their own superiority. Silly me, expecting logic or consistency.

@TB Tabby, @wwth
I resisted this conclusion for a long time because I’m too nice – or a gullible pushover (whichever you prefer). But no, you’re both absolutely right 🙁

JayJay
JayJay
2 years ago

None of you have experienced life in their skin, but you see fit to pass judgement, which is not really surprising because that’s what most of you empty heads do 24/7.

Dude, strife and suffering don’t absolve us of our obligation to be decent and compassionate to the people around us. They celebrate the death and suffering of children. “I’m just joking, so it’s not that bad.” THE DEATH OF CHILDREN IS NOT TRIVIAL OR SOMETHING TO JOKE ABOUT.

I see fit to pass judgement on anyone who says the thought of a grieving mother who will outlive her child bring a smile to their face because of the hypothetical sex they think a FUCKING CHILD was having.

It doesn’t matter whether the things they say are meant sincerely or as a joke. It’s disgusting either way.

When you try to defend someone like these guys, it makes you seem just as morally bankrupt and repugnant as them. Make note of that, dude.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Okie, I’ll try again:

Sorry for the multiple posts, all. I just now saw this clip shared on Twitter (I hope my link works, it’s a mirrored Youtube clip so I’m not sure if the usual sharing method still applies).
Don’t watch it if you’d rather not be completely creeped out. An apparent incel “catfished” a woman on Tinder (he pretended to be a “Chad”) and then filmed himself meeting her in a cafe. Her reaction is allegedly proof of how all women only want hot guys. Nothing to do with how utterly creepy he is, no way.

calmdown
calmdown
2 years ago

Yeah, look how shallow the “landwhale” is, judging people on looks.

Kimstu
Kimstu
2 years ago

@Skynet0225:

Most of those spouting this nonsense, at least 95% are being extremely provocative to garner attention. They damn well know what they’re saying is disgusting

Rational people understand that when they’re deliberately saying things they know are disgusting, the vast majority of other rational people will be disgusted by them.

Only in the speshul-snowflake-logic of internet bigotry do we find people deliberately saying disgusting things and then feeling aggrieved that the meanie “self righteous” “SJWs” are responding to them with richly merited disgust, instead of with sympathetic “reaching out” or “kind words” that they haven’t made even the slightest effort to deserve.

Drungarios
Drungarios
2 years ago

@Surplus to Requirements

Hokay, there’s…a lot here, and I dunno if I can cover it all, but a few points:

1, you’re right, most dating advice does tend to assume a solidly middle-class existence. I suspect Dr. Nerdlove’s main demographic is mostly comfortably well off IT guys. To his credit, though, I do recall him writing a couple of articles about dating while poor, so you might want to take a look at them.

2, I think you’re being a tad overly negative when it comes to developing new hobbies and social groups. It can be difficult, but I don’t think it’s quite as insurmountable as you make it out to be. Cheap or free clubs and groups totally exist (MeetUp is a great way to find them). I personally know of several film clubs, board game groups, hiking clubs, etc that require little or no monetary investment.

Also, I really doubt that your hobbies are completely fixed by 25. I picked up most of my current hobbies well after that, including one just last year.

I do admit that you’re right in that luck does play a role. You can do everything right, and still not meet anyone. That, unfortunately, is just life, and it sucks. I wish there was more we could do to fix it, but fortune rules all. That said, there are still things you can do to improve your odds. Good luck.

MrsObedMarsh
MrsObedMarsh
2 years ago

@DrThang:

Yeah, that’s a great point Dr. Thang! How do we know Skynet doesn’t just want people to think he helps incels? Total virtue signaler!

Fluffy Spider Returns
Fluffy Spider Returns
2 years ago

Dear Skynet,
Calling out is different than virtue signaling
Sincerly,
Fluffy Spider
(Ps find a better cause to support like cats)

Katherine the Adequate
Katherine the Adequate
2 years ago

If I never hear the alt-right buzzterm “virtue signaling” again, it will be too many times.

Katherine the Adequate
Katherine the Adequate
2 years ago

Mish,

That’s a creep. A stalky creep. Who would feel “sorry” for him?

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Hehehhehehehehehhehe, Meetup … I just checked there again on the off chance things had improved since my last visit. Nope. It finds one single thing within 25km of where I live. Which is, according to Google Maps, a 31.4km drive away (aka over $200 round trip by taxi and no-freaking-way within walking range). Obviously Meetup is going by as-the-crow-flies distance. On Google Maps a straight line between the two points crosses a river, a lake, and then the same river as before some distance downstream but might actually be a bit under 25km.

I don’t see any information about membership fees for this group, but I think that’s moot since the de facto cost of membership would run into the thousands of dollars a year range, i.e. exceeding 10% of my annual income.

On the other hand, the topic of this group is one I would actually not be bored by! So score it one point there. It’s not quite as completely useless as it theoretically might have been.

I expect the same situation would obtain for anyone else not presently living in a megalopolis. I’m not even in a small town; I’m in a city with a five-figure population. I think it’s a fair bet that either Dr. Thang is in a megalopolis or it wasn’t Meetup that helped him. 🙂

Oh, and do note that, thanks to the land speculators (a species who should wind up having to spend the afterlife cheek-by-jowl with the incels, IMO), living in any city of a million or more population now requires a “bourgeoisie” level of income, unless you don’t mind your home being constructed from cardboard. So, Meetup appears to be incompatible with being below middle class, too, because it’s useless unless you’re either in a zipcode that pays upwards of $2000 a month just on rent, or else you own a car, or else you can afford to spend hundreds of bucks on long taxi rides into the country, or else you can afford to spend … well, whatever it would cost to organize something yourself and add it there. (You will need: a space, which means paying more rent to someone for somewhere; probably equipment of some kind; if you rent halls or suchlike for a day for each get-together you’ll also need to rent a self-storage unit to keep that stuff in the rest of the time; transportation capable of moving said equipment back and forth; and a lot more mobile minutes and other expenses related to communication. At a minimum. $200 taxi rides start to look cheap by comparison. I can see why these sorts of things mostly charge tens of bucks a month membership fees!)

(It’s starting to look like what a poor person most needs to have the opportunity to do much of anything beyond sleep, eat, work, do stuff alone at home, and do stuff on the internet, is to have a rich friend with a cottage they leave unused much of the time that you can borrow and a car they’ll lend you at the drop of a hat, fully fueled and everything. And now it’s starting to make sense why all these things always seem to be located at some random cottage in the middle of nowhere instead of a short walk away inside the city limits…)

(…and then you’re to some extent becoming part of the problem, since those cottages sitting unused so much of the time while thousands sleep on the streets in the nearest major city is part of that whole wealth and housing inequality thing.)

Dr. Thang
Dr. Thang
2 years ago

@Surplus to Requirements

That’s…not what I was talking about, I only meant improving myself as a person so I don’t feel so worthless, rather than wallowing in self-pity like incels. Most of what I did was just attempting to overcome issues I have stemming from autism, can’t say I’m completely over it now but I’ve definitely made a lot of progress, I can even make eye contact with people now. It didn’t cost me anything, I just had some help with my disability for the first time in my life. I probably wouldn’t have turned out to be such a circus fire of a person if I had any help earlier in life, but it is what it is.
But none of that really had anything to do with me losing my virginity, I just happened to get really lucky, and then really unlucky, but that’s a long story.

Bina
2 years ago

Frankly, judging by their online behavior as chronicled here (and elsewhere), I think the incels are actually the bullies, not the bullied. Who spends more time on hate and rage-wanking and trying to out-asshole everybody else than they do?

Also, remember, the Capital Gazette shooter was an incel, and what did he do to the one woman who was nice to him? Stalked her ten years after she saw him last, harassed her, made her life miserable…and then, when her plight finally made it to a police blotter, he also stalked, harassed, and ultimately shot up the offices of the newspaper that merely reported his crimes. If this piece of shit is in any way representative of what we’re supposed to be nice to, it’s a hard NO from me.

In short, Luke Skywanker can just take all his faux-intellectual right-wing virtue-signalling and fuck right off. And keep fucking off till he gets back here, and then fuck off some more. And keep fucking off from there.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

@Skynet

Virtue signalling on cue, forever seeking the next oppressed class or cause to champion, no matter how banal or venal.

Like incels, you’re doing your own virtue signaling. It’s just that your “virtues” are different from decent people’s. In your (morally bankrupt) case, you defend the indefensible, thus letting incels know what a great guy you are.

Also, “venal”? If there’s money to be made from verbally attacking incels, I need to know the details. I’ve been virtue signaling for free for years now, damn it. Yeah, it’s fun — absolutely it’s fun — but it would be even more fun if I got paid. Looking forward to your response.

Voxpoptart
Voxpoptart
2 years ago

Surplus to Requirements:

Hi! Fairly recent WHTM reader (post-Alex-Minassian), first-time poster. I’m not sure what my ideal first post would be and this surely isn’t it, but I’ve recommended Dr. Nerdlove (Harris O’Malley) to enough of my very-low-income friends that I wish to respond.

I’m a 40-something single dad; I was a sub-poverty-level never-been-kissed virgin through 24 but have since done fine; and much of Dr. Nerdlove’s advice is something I figured out on my own or was trained into by girlfriends/ wife. “Dress better”, he explains, starts with “find clothes that fit well”, “don’t clash colors hideously”, and “figure out a look that suits your personality”; I can and do achieve this through cheap used clothes, but my parents had no clue about any of it. “Smell better”, O’Malley explains, starts with “bathe or shower regularly”, something many nerds do not, including me as a depressed college student.

He’s firmly in favor of activity dates, preferring them to dinner dates; this can include parks, hiking, karaoke, free/ cheap museums, etc. As for Meetup.com, I’ve rarely been able to schedule use of it around my parenting, but living in a mid-sized city (our baseball team is four levels below the major leagues), I’ve found appealing groups for hiking/ climbing, for board games, and for hanging around a coffee shop talking about science fiction.

Beyond that, he talks over and over about attitude: how to look approachable, be a good listener, flirt, know and keep your boundaries, negotiate and respect others’ needs, and apologize and mean it.

I’m as prone to class resentment as anyone. But I hate to see “look and smell your best, do fun things, be open to new people, and be trustworthy company if you want people to like you” tarred as a capitalist agenda. It is, in fact, true self-improvement (for those to whom some of it is difficult or new, e.g., me in my 20s).

Anyway, rant over. Pleased to meet y’all! I loved the group responses on the recent thread about the Toronto shootings — both the directly relevant ones, and everything I learned about the history of fire-fighting.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
2 years ago

“I lured a woman to a restaurant, then walked up to her filming the encounter with my camera, and rather than open with “Hi, I’m Tom from Tindr, are you Emily?” start with that classic ‘I’m a fucking creep’ opener, ‘Do you have a boyfriend?’

When she walks out, determine it’s because you’re not hot enough.

Riiiiiiiiight.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

Wow I think I did that before. With my former best friend who turned out to be an Incel. All I got was burned, a complete hatred of Incels, depression from losing my one long lasting friendship, and flashbacks of hatred over seeing someone I care about betray me and my beliefs in every way possible.

Boi was I the fool for giving that rat fuck the time of day.

Like others has said it was all about them and their stupid fucking egos. Because frankly everything I did from losing on purpose, negotiations, appeals to logic and reason, and appeals to humanity have all proven it meant jack and shit if it didn’t sate their addiction to self hatred.

AJ likes Apple Juice
AJ likes Apple Juice
2 years ago

Nym,

This is true also when you run into them on unrelated subs where they reveal themselves for what they are in some thread.

I have run into this several times myself. What sometimes amuses me is when they’ve been in their echo chamber so long that they forget the rest of the human race doesn’t speak the way they do.

A few days ago, I was commenting on a topic of sexual assault, and there was this guy responding to a few people. Then, in the middle of one of his posts, he suddenly starting talking about the victim using the word “roastie,” and I thought, “There it is!”

I think most people there were hip to it, though, since basically everyone disengaged with him immediately after that.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

@Alan

(You will recall that there were no single people in the 90s)

Of course (with the exception of the characters on Friends and Seinfeld).

Those of us who lived IRL — and not on a screen — were all married.

Those were the days.

Dr. Thang
Dr. Thang
2 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

Damn dude, that sounds rough, I’m sorry you had to go through that. What did he do anyway? And did he start off a decent person but slowly get poisoned by incel beliefs?

EverythingIsRidiculous
EverythingIsRidiculous
2 years ago

Narcissist bully 101: any pushback on your hateful spewings, go all wet-eyed and try to claim victimhood. We’ve all seen this and know how contemptible it is.

So, no, Skynet, I didn’t just fall of the back of the stupid truck, and I see through your self-obsessed faux-victim shit. Change the script.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
2 years ago

@David Futrelle:

Well, from my perspective, it was for the sheer entertainment value he provided.

Kylie
Kylie
2 years ago

@ Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation

I dunno dude. While you’ve pointed out an interesting privilege blind spot for people like me who are middle class… the fact that you’re main take away from self-grooming advice is that at its core: What is being communicated to the women (per the hypothetical you are using) and what the woman herself would see is centered on money.

It seems to me that you yourself have some unchecked internalization of the gold digger trope as well?

From a woman’s perspective (well, 1 woman only granted X’D), the fact that men show their work in self-grooming (like just simple stuff i.e. showering before dates) is more an act of sincerity in a society where women are constantly held to a higher grooming standard regardless of class (like there are cheap drugstore makeup products courting women of lower classes). Like, when men exert even just some semblance of care in their appearance regardless of their natural looks it feels like they’re trying to match the effort woman are expected to put in and can come off as a show of sincerity.

You do have a point in that most self-improvement articles are made with a middle-class audience and that’s classist. But from my perspective, it’s kinda hard to tell from your writing whether you’re blasting the idea of self-improvement itself or blasting the the fact that there is a lack of articles that write with intersectional consideration for men of lower classes.

Also the part where you bring up ‘women who fall for misogynistic charmers’. Well, two things:

1) “Charmers” actively hide their misogyny (the threat they pose to women they’re courting) so that in the perspective of a woman, a deceptive charmer is indistinguishable from an HNM (“honest non-misogynist”). Basically a “Charmer” cheats by acting like an HNM.

2) The misogynist “charmers” themselves are probably using ‘self-improvement’ techniques. Like AFAIK the term self-improvement tends to get thrown a lot in content (whether articles or just forum comments) made by PUAs/misogynistic body-building online communities.

Heck people like Dr Nerdlove used to be part of the PUA community. What Dr NL is trying to do is to reappropriate the ‘self-improvement’ techniques that do make sense and work into a more feminist framing, especially considering the source material’s primary problem is that it, to recontextualise your own words,

harbor attitudes toward women and/or the world that are destructive and misogynistic

So that’s what people like Dr. Nerdlove would focus on.

The source material is definitely also classist, as has been pointed out in this HBomberguy’s vid (basically PUAs market their ‘self-improvement’ material to the lonely men with disposable income). And racist. I’m not surprised these aspects can be hard to pick up on if you have privilege blind spots. So yeah, do critique on Dr NL’s unchecked classism. Like yeah, he probably should have guest posts from men of lower class, men of color, men with disabilities, etc to cover the various blindspots he has.

But I feel what you’ve listed here… those are flaws that the non-misogynistic self-improvement genre can feasibly improve on (even starting from now!) without need to resort to the slippery slope of “WE REVOLUTION NOW!”

Also, to me, your writing comes off as very brocialist? But I’ll admit, I’m not edumacated enough to really break it down with accuracy and nuance, but I have to say that’s just the feeling I get and it kinda bothers me? (Less ‘red flag’ and more ‘induces side-eye’)

Jeroen
Jeroen
2 years ago

I think I read the best description of virtue signaling on Vox.com:

The core argument of Gamergate, and of the alt-right more generally, has always been that caring is hypocritical. Deep down, both movements believe that everybody is racist and sexist and homophobic, that the left, especially, is simply trying to lord a moral superiority over everybody else when, in secret cabals, they kidnap babies and run child molestation rings out of the basements of pizza restaurants. This idea is referred to as “virtue signaling,” meaning that there is no such thing as real virtue, only a pretend virtue that people deploy to try to win points with mainstream society, when everybody would be better off dropping the pretense and letting their most offensive freak flags fly.

Full article (mainly dealing with Gamergate, but I’m sure there’s a big overlap between incels and gamergators): https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/7/24/17599132/james-gunn-fired-gamergate-guardians-of-the-galaxy

ellesar
ellesar
2 years ago

I really fail to see how being unhappy, or messed up, or feeling inadequate or whatever has to do with being as vile as you possibly can about people who have died or been badly injured.

If they are

Raging silently they listen for an echo, either approbation or repudiation will suffice. Any human contact, repugnant hatred or a questioning curiosity will do.

then why the hell are they being HEARD on a forum where they KNOW they will be applauded?!

LOTS of people have been unhappy and lonely – feeling that we do not fit in. Are we supposed to expect others to come and rescue us? Finding a suitable peer group obviously helps, but what is obviously NOT helping is a peer group who offer NO support, NO sympathy, NO compassion, just continued oneupmanship on how disgusting they can be about people who NEVER caused them any harm.

PirateJennie
PirateJennie
2 years ago

I remember MRAL quite well.

The cycle got to be one of his tells as he popped back under other screen names and personas.

He’d make his entrance and swear he was here in good faith but get caught in lies and contradictions, get out-argued and rage out.

He’d apologize and explain his abject misery and failure as a human being. (Sometimes simultaneously bragging about his extraordinary accomplishments as a man who’s left women out of his life)

He’d be met with various reactions, some of which were beyond understanding and kind, giving thoughtful advice, empathy for his stated loneliness, and even compliments. Some people, already sick of his shit, would just tell him to fuck off elsewhere.

He’d reject every single thing intended to help or show empathy with multiple reasons why he couldn’t possibly be understood, least of all by the WHTM commentariat. He’d sometimes focus on one or two regulars who were blunt and unsympathetic to him with frightening tenacity.

He’d become more heated, eventually devolving into unfettered abuse and get himself banned.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Ad nauseam.

Sound familiar?

– he did have other traits and tells, but those are the broad strokes

.

Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
2 years ago

@Surplus

Personally, I feel it comes down to “accept what you can’t change.” I myself find it very difficult to get dates (I’m a cis woman, 41, white, middle class, UK size 18 but fit, working and with plenty of money for good grooming)

For a long time, I was very bitter and angry about the fact no-one wanted to have sex with me. I felt it was terribly unfair. I hated seeing happy couples. I hated it when my friends got together. I would cry and cry when I matched with some guy on Tinder and then we’d meet up and I would see the utter horror in his face and then he’d make an excuse halfway through the date.

But the thing is, the only person I was hurting was myself, and I was also making myself (even more) unattractive than I already was. It’s the way it is; you can either accept it or not.

For me, getting out there and joining a martial arts class, learning pottery, making friends, wasn’t about meeting potential partners. It was about learning to enjoy my life as a single person. To accept that sometimes people don’t always get everything they want, and sometimes some of us don’t get to meet a partner or have as much sex as we’d like, but it’s still possible to have an amazing life where you achieve and enjoy all the things which don’t depend on romance. I can’t get a date, but I can still get a life.

I binned all my dating site accounts in the end, they just made me miserable. I’m happier for it.

When I read a lot of the advice to people who can’t get dates, this is sometimes what I think of. That it’s designed to help them move out of that depression step by step, even if they can’t find anyone to love. Washing your hair and wearing clothes that fit make you feel like you’re worth something, even if no-one else notices, so I think it’s as much about helping people feel happier as it is about getting them dates.

I do have to take issue with some of your comments about grooming. You do not need to spend a lot of money on products and clothes to look and smell nice. No-one can tell your shampoo cost 99p.

And as long as your clothes are clean, the right size, they don’t have holes and the colour/fit suits you, you can look ok on very little cash. Fabulous is not impossible, in fact. I should know, I lived in poverty for years, I used thrift shops, amazon, tailors, everythingfivepounds.com, thinking about what I bought and saving up – I had a small wardrobe, but a good one.

Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
Violet the Vile, Moonbat Screech Junky
2 years ago

Re: incels – see above.

They choose this. They don’t have to.

They could say “Well, I’m deeply sad that I find it difficult to get dates and sometimes I’m so down about it I want to die. But sometimes people don’t get what they want and I can’t change this. Tonight I’m going to go out and play card games and look people in the eye and then come home and realise I have spent an entire hour not thinking about how I don’t have a girlfriend.”

But instead they actively choose to stew in their own depression and anger, and they won’t even take one step to improve their lives. Not even in the tiniest way.

I feel somewhat sorry for them – having been there – but not anywhere near as sorry as I feel for the people they hurt and victimise, and I would feel sorrier for them if I thought it was truly out of their control.

Lukas Xavier
Lukas Xavier
2 years ago

None of you have experienced life in their skin…

Yes, we have. We just didn’t use it as an excuse to turn into raging assholes.

therealcie
therealcie
2 years ago

Yanno, when I was young and immature, I spent many a miserable night crying in my drink to anyone who would listen about how the Universe was doing me dirty by not sending me a fine and righteous dude. I was probably pretty annoying. But I never thought that anyone owed it to me to have sex with me, and I certainly never would have celebrated the murder of a ten-year-old boy, not even in my moments of thinking all men suck because I didn’t have a boyfriend.
These poor wittle Incels not only lack emotional maturity, their entitlement and misogyny are a toxic combination.

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