Incels lose it (even more so than usual) after woman jokes about the “aborted girlfriend” meme

@Hippodameia
Especially when they don’t even know all the measures already taken to erode our rights.

Kupo, I’m sorry if anything I said offended you in anyway truly but I’ve been saying over and over again that I’m wondering if it is immoral and I’m leaning toward it’s not immoral. I was asking what other people thought cuz I thought it was a little ambiguous killing something that was alive, anything at all, that’s why I brought up the mouse. So I don’t understand the comment you made saying I specifically said having an abortion is a immoral act.

Second, wow I was a lot like a super huge amount more ignorant on the topic of pregnancy in general not just abortion then I ever suspected. I had no clue that a normal pregnancy was like dangerous! I’ve never wanted kids it’s just something that has not ever appealed to me ever in my life. Having the responsibility for another life as I’ve said before I prefer to have a significant other that pretty much takes responsibility for my life at least in a dominant-submissive sense. I really have no responsibilities I don’t choose because I’m a frivolous pothead slacker and I hate responsibility LOL.

So apparently I had a lot of assumptions that were just completely untrue and I have no idea really where they even came from. I guess cultural and societal reinforcement and like pop culture and the media and stuff maybe? But I thought the great majority like 90% of pregnancies completely safe and even mostly pleasant. I thought you got like morning sickness a little nausea which is not fun but I personally have a weak stomach I get nauseous all the time it’s not a huge deal. And I thought that you were extra hungry a lot and probably more tired as the baby gets bigger.

But I also thought pregnant women felt really good lots of the time, like aren’t pregnant women supposed to have a glow? And I’ve only known a couple of pregnant women even reasonably well. I guess 3 precisely over my entire life cuz most of my friends don’t want kids either. And two of those three really did seem thrilled and I guess as the common cliche goes glowing. And the third one didn’t seem unhappy the just a bit of a nihilist in general lol so yeah no glowing there. So I’ve only read the comments I haven’t followed the links but as the people who know what I do for work know I have lots of breaks while I work and I’m going to make sure to do that.

Again thank you for the information and lastly for now to the person who said I was tone policing, I disagree and maybe I’m splitting hairs but I think asking a community of people that you’ve been friendly with to not be directly hostile because you are debating in good faith and honestly just want to be informed does not quite fit the definition. I’m not saying that everyone always has to be perfectly polite in every situation and if you’re not civil then your arguments are invalid or anything like that

I’m just saying I truly want to understand and given that most people here are aware that I’m a over sensitive emotional high strung person. I’m just not going to understand information being given to me if I’m feeling attacked. That is just truth it’s not objective. I can’t understand when I feel like people are attacking me. I just start getting overwrought as you can see in some of the comments I left. I don’t understand why if people are part of a reasonably friendly community why they would want that. Isn’t it better for me to learn and be less ignorant? Again I’m honestly asking I don’t see why the other option is desirable.

Okie dokie I got to go meet a customer so I will definitely read up on the way talking about what pregnancy does just in general. Cuz apparently I literally was about as wrong as I could possibly be in that situation. Or I guess not exactly wrong, just the literal epitome of ignorant because I had no solid opinion on how a pregnancy goes in general cuz I really never thought about it before. Hope everyone is having a great Friday and will have a lovely weekend

Kupo, I’m sorry if anything I said offended you in anyway truly but I’ve been saying over and over again that I’m wondering if it is immoral and I’m leaning toward it’s not immoral. I was asking what other people thought cuz I thought it was a little ambiguous killing something that was alive, anything at all, that’s why I brought up the mouse. So I don’t understand the comment you made saying I specifically said having an abortion is a immoral act.

Seriously? You compared abortion to killing a mouse. A living, feeling, intelligent being. How the hell is that not immoral? And I wasn’t just addressing you. There were others talking about how it’s something to feel guilty about or that it is always a difficult choice, etc.

I thought you got like morning sickness a little nausea which is not fun but I personally have a weak stomach I get nauseous all the time it’s not a huge deal.

I have IBS and get migraines, so I get nausea frequently. It’s not at all the same as being so sick you can’t keep anything down, which morning sickness does to many people. For me, it was okay as long as I avoided certain foods, but I terminated early so who knows if it would have gotten worse. For one woman I know, it was all day sickness that lasted all the way through her pregnancy. Nine months of throwing up all day every day. While a parasite saps nutrients from you. Not a huge deal?

Again thank you for the information and lastly for now to the person who said I was tone policing, I disagree and maybe I’m splitting hairs but I think asking a community of people that you’ve been friendly with to not be directly hostile because you are debating in good faith and honestly just want to be informed does not quite fit the definition.

Yes, it does. You’re thanking the people who put in the extra emotional labor into educating you with a nicer tone. We are under constant attack by people making the same arguments you make to try and restrict our access to medical care simply because we have a uterus instead of a penis.

I’m just saying I truly want to understand and given that most people here are aware that I’m a over sensitive emotional high strung person. I’m just not going to understand information being given to me if I’m feeling attacked. That is just truth it’s not objective. I can’t understand when I feel like people are attacking me. I just start getting overwrought as you can see in some of the comments I left. I don’t understand why if people are part of a reasonably friendly community why they would want that. Isn’t it better for me to learn and be less ignorant? Again I’m honestly asking I don’t see why the other option is desirable.

The thing is, we’re under no obligation to teach you. You’re making arguments that actively hurt some of us, and their feelings at seeing those arguments are frankly more important than your feelings about their reactions. They’re allowed to feel angry and upset because women are constantly having to fight for our bodily autonomy. I am at increased risk for a condition that nearly killed my mom. If I become pregnant I could easily die. This is not just a hypothetical to me. I take a risk every time I have sex, because contraception sometimes fails even when used properly. I don’t have to be nice to you when you’re making the same arguments as people who would rather I die than get medical treatment I might need one day. Neither does anyone else. Now, I’m trying to keep a nice tone but I know I’ve lost my patience and become angry a few times in this thread. I’m not going to apologize for sometimes getting snippy, though. It’s a valid reaction.

You’re thanking the people who put in the extra emotional labor

Flame me if I’m wrong here, but are you suggesting one shouldn’t thank people for putting in extra labor on one’s behalf? Because I kind of got raised on the notion that that was the kind of thing that thank-yous were for and that to not give thanks in such a situation was grossly impolite.

Okay now you’re just being unfair. First of all I specifically stated over and over again whether or not it’s a moral issue that is personal not political or even social. It is no one’s decision but your own what you do with your body I specifically said I am against any type of legislation that would keep women from getting abortions or make it more difficult. I think I even said and I will go back and check that not only me but my mother and a number of her friends are not stupid so they’re aware the harder you make it to get abortions the more women die because they’re not going to stop wanting abortions, they’re just going to take what is essentially poison or shove a wire hanger in their vagina.

Not once did I even hint toward the notion that abortion should be in any way restricted. I honestly believe that you should be able to go to the doctor tell them you want an abortion and they should give it to you ASAP. Where, please show me, did I say abortion should be limited in any way? Only argument I made was I’m not sure if it is moral, now I am because of the information I was given. Are you saying it have been better for me to go on with my previous View and not be educated? Cuz I truly don’t understand how you want me to act in this context.

Again you were saying I said things I never said and I understand you are personally very emotional about this topic but that doesn’t give you the right to say I said things that I did not. Second I specifically stated I could understand why some people were being hostile and if they just thought my views were so abhorrent that I should be chastised that’s one thing. But people were mixing giving me information with being hostile with all sorts of other things and not only did it make me somewhat overwrought but it just confused me. Now that I do not see the point in.

Earlier you compared me to someone who came here spouting all sorts of a****** nonsense from the beginning and that I found very hurtful and a ridiculous comparison. You’ve been here for a long time you know good and damn well I’ve said a bunch of ignorant s*** before but never have I debated in bad faith. That person was here in bad faith almost constantly. We are not similar at all. They were purposefully trying to be provocative, it was obvious to many people. I am honestly trying to educate myself and become less ignorant, they were trolling. I think those things are about as different as possible. If they’re not, can you tell me why, please.

I think because (and not even unreasonably I can see why someone would respond like that) as you said if you get pregnant you could die you are taking things I’m saying and maybe completely unconsciously but putting things into them that are not there because maybe you feel attacked just like I did and if that is so I am sincerely sorry. That is not snark I am truly sincerely sorry. But you can’t just keep putting words in my mouth.

Also as a black woman I have a very strong awareness that no one owes anyone education on any topic but I often choose to if it is someone who wants to learn and be better. There are a ridiculous number of white men and women who call themselves Progressive but know nothing about racial issues and can be incredibly offencive by accident. The ones who are truly sorry when that happens and truly want to learn and be a better person why would I not want to help them? That seems selfish to me.

To be very clear I am not talking about assholes or even people who are blase about it, I am talking about people being mean well and just happened have not been taught certain things they are completely oblivious. There’s nothing wrong with ignorance in my eyes there’s a problem with willful ignorance. Is it getting better for them to be informed too? Obviously it’s no one’s obligation but I specifically said if anyone doesn’t mind giving me some advice here I would appreciate it I specifically said in response to that person Megan if no one had it wouldn’t make me like the community less or make you any less awesome people but some people chose to be kind and I truly appreciate it like where is the problem here?

It feels like you want to be angry at me. Maybe that’s just my insecurities and paranoia honestly that’s completely possible LOL but I really haven’t said some of the things you’re saying I did. I’m going to go check out some links now but I’ll come back and see if anyone gave more links or information that could help. Again thank you everybody who was willing to help, obviously you are not obligated but you did it out of the kindness of your heart and that’s why you’re awesome

If the topic is upsetting and very personal for someone (and this one is for most people here and probably most people who can become pregnant) – it doesn’t matter if you are asking in good faith or because you want to hurt people. Effect is the same.

For example if I drop somehting heavy on your foot, it still hurts even if I mean to drop or accidentally drop. and if you are upset because your foot hurts and angry with me because I hurt your foot, you have a full justification. It will be really unfair if I reply, “I am so upset by your reaction – why are you so upset? I didn’t mean to break your foot!” Correct response will be to try to do what I can to fix the foot or take you to hospital. And later when the pain is gone maybe there is time to discuss if I mean or don’t mean to break your foot, and how to improve my behavior so I will not break feet again.

it’s clear? Maybe it is a silly metaphor.

One more thing, I don’t think it is fair you can make excuse that you are high strung and sensitive to explain your reaction, but then become annoyed when people don’t respond exactly how you prefer. It is true you didn’t call people assholes, but it is also true you don’t try to understand very well *why* what you said hurts and upsets people.

@KatieKitten420

You came in here asking us to admire people who are “consistently” pro-life. You came in here asking us to admire people who identify with a movement that literally wants to strip our rights away from us, a movement that would be happy to see us dead from desperate, back-alley abortions because we were going to kill a baby so we deserve it. A movement that very well might get its wish in the USA and fully ban abortion instead of just making it ridiculously difficult to access.

Can you see why that may have upset some people? You keep asking for allowances for your own volatile emotional state, surely you can see how you may have induced a similar disordered state in people who are literally under attack by pro-lifers?

Intention isn’t magic. Your actions can still hurt even if you do not mean for them to. It’s still obviously better to NOT mean to hurt someone and to learn from your mistakes, but it doesn’t exempt you from those you hurt being upset about it.

If someone came in here with the best of intentions, talking about how they think that “true” incels who totally respect women’s rights to refuse and definitely aren’t mad about not being handed a relationship on a silver platter are admirable, they would rightfully be laid into here, because the incel movement is a toxic, misogynistic shitheap that literally kills people and wants to strip bodily autonomy from women.

Especially if the incel-apologist then started talking about how there DEFINITELY shouldn’t be enforced relationships/sex slavery, and how rape is wrong, but that it’s just so sad how women who have lots of sex already don’t offer some to the incels. It’s not like a little more sex would change their lives any, sex makes people feel good 90% of the time, right? And poor lonely men who can’t find anyone to have sex with often commit suicide. If the sluts casual sex-having women just had sex with them, they could save lives! Not that they’re obligated to have sex with incels, of course, or that there’s any moral judgement attached to this sentiment, not at all, no siree, but it’s just sad that the incels don’t have women choose to save their lives.

Repeating rhetoric that is used to justify stripping bodily autonomy from people is still offensive, even if the person saying the rhetoric keeps claiming that taking bodily autonomy away isn’t what they want to happen. Does that make sense?

Wow, I’ve been gone for a day and a half. This is for Catalpa. Oh Catalpa, what started out as an answer to a comment ended up being an actual document. Then I started dropping in my citations and quotations and before I knew it, this was a multi-page essay that needs a solid introduction still.

Anyway, here is the google.doc link because it got so long. Don’t in anyway feel obligated to read it. I know this is far, far more than you asked for.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r91o__SZJOBLn7jwBJfaoUWEWTVxV3qLKLzN9cCPqes/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r91o__SZJOBLn7jwBJfaoUWEWTVxV3qLKLzN9cCPqes/edit?usp=sharing

@KatieKitten

So you really think that forced pregnancy is ok? Or forced abortion for that matter? That a pregnancy is a person? That an embryo is the same as a fully born person? This has never been the ethical stance – ever really, except in the recent wars to keep women and full reproductive freedom as far apart as possible. Bonus points if you can get women to fight each other on the issues. Honest. Women have aborted pregnancies for a very long time, first using herbal methods and the simple expedient of opening the cervix and then surgical methods as they developed. This isn’t anything new. Trust me, as someone who has spent a lot of hours over the last two days dropping in citations about this issue and issues tangential to it, this has never been the case. A pregnant woman is still counted as one individual, not two and there are solid reasons for this, legally and ethically.

We still need full, comprehensive reproductive rights and freedoms and we are a long, long way from this. We need to start with full body autonomy. Women still don’t own their own bodies, which means we don’t own ourselves. You included. Think about this for a moment. It is true. When you get mired in these recent and muddied arguments, you are among other things, ensuring that you yourself don’t have full autonomy. And that you don’t need or deserve autonomy or custody of yourself. What you are essentially saying is not only that you don’t want freedom and autonomy for other women, but that you also don’t want it for yourself. Is this really what you want to say? Is this really how you feel?

It has been said that nobody believes in abortion until they need one and with some people I have seen this principle in action, but should we really deny ourselves and others until we are forced into absolute, experiential empathy because of life circumstances?

What else are we unwittingly saying when we turn this into an ethical issue? That women are only suffered because of their reproductive capacities? That “good” women have babies and “bad” women abort them? What about women who have done both or neither over the course of a lifetime?

This is a serious issue, but not for the reasons you think. The humanity or lack thereof of a fetus obscures the bigger and more relevant issue, that women are not yet accorded full humanity. Maybe we should start there.

@Chimeric Mind and others:

I am not against helping people and children that actually need help. As I said in another post untwisting the arguments that surround abortion, adoption, fostercare and childbirth, the conflation of which is used to deny women and children true freedom and autonomy and reproductive freedom and care, I am against what adoption has become in that it is no longer about caring for women and children but about creating orphans for the market, among other things.

In replying to Catalpa, I ended up with a big essay that STILL doesn’t cover everything I’ve learned over the last thirty years – but it hits the high points, especially in showing that what we think of as adoption is a product of the last 80 to 100 years and of the eugenics movement and absolutely antithetical to any kind of human rights or humanism that you care to name.

@Chimeric Mind –

Your older sister is not the kind of thing that I am talking about. The very opposite in fact. I wrote a long post in this thread about why and how the conflation of abortion, infant and international adoption and foster care is muddying the waters so badly that what happens in actuality is that genuine autonomy, freedom, reproductive rights and proper humanitarian care for everyone gets lost in the shuffle. The reason for these conflations is to cover all manner of crimes and misdemeanors.

Most people who have adopted and seek to adopt wouldn’t have her or a person in similar circumstances with a million in cash added onto the deal. Because their intention and the intention of the industry I am criticizing isn’t about helping people – it is about social eugenics for both mother and child. Your foster sister? Her mind and her identity couldn’t be coopted or stolen. Which makes her value pretty much zero to most adopters and traffickers. Which is why foster children do not cost the kind of money that an international or domestic adoption of an infant of small child costs. I say it in the essay – children are graded and priced accordingly. Women with the most valuable product at the very least aren’t giving informed consent. At the midlevel are being defrauded, coerced and lied to and at the farthest end are being tortured, falsely held until their child is obtained, have their child out and out stolen and it is thought that some women have even been murdered to obtain their children for buyers. Guatemala and Central America were notorious for this.

Her circumstances and her history, while tragic are still her circumstances and history. I am also sure that helping her heal was not an easy task either. Again, this is not what the eugenicists and traffickers are after and not what I am talking about. As I thought I made pretty clear. Talk about a straw man.

Infants and children under five cost a lot to adopt because they are rare. Women have to be coerced under pressure and duress to pry their infants away from them. There are plenty of people talking about their experience in many places around the internet. When a woman’s pregnancy is coopted so that her child can be trafficked into chattel adoption? I don’t see how you can call this anything other than a form of sex slavery form of sexual slavery. Nobody wants to have a child for strangers. What happens when we take the money out of surrogacy and make it an altruistic act? Nobody wants to do it – except in rare cases for a sister or a bestie – and I could only give a citation for a sister volunteering.

Anyway, what began as an answer to catalpa on the history of adoption and why that history isn’t what is commonly thought is at the link provided above. I tried to stick only to the history, illustrating related issues only as I had to, but even in all of that I only scratched the surface. There are also links in that regarding how children are laundered for the international market. Again, I barely scratched the surface

@Skildfreja – I really liked what you had to say about the mind and potential for mind and how that argument can be dealt with.

All of these areas are rife with not only misogyny but human rights abuses. We have to unwind these conflations so that we truly have rights for women and children and reproductive freedom. We aren’t even close.

Count me as another person that didn’t have a hard time making the choice to abort. I’ve had 2 abortions and aside from one of them being quite painful (planned parenthood doesn’t typically give you drugs for medical abortions…eek) it was a huge relief more than anything. I would be more apprehensive about dental surgery tbh. The thought of giving birth is horrifying to me.

I also remember that some states require doctors to read scripts to people before abortions that are just scientifically untrue. Things like abortions increase your risk of breast cancer etc. You’d think it’d be something the freeze peach crowd would be up in arms about but heh…yeah right.

Found a link. 26 states !!!! force doctors to blatantly lie to their patients to try and get them to change their mind.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/nz88gx/a-state-by-state-list-of-the-lies-abortion-doctors-are-forced-to-tell-women

booburry – yeah, somehow that’s all right, but California making “crisis pregnancy centers” admit they have no actual medical staff is a violation of the first amendment . . .

@Catalpa – Thanks, I will go and look and see who it was.

@Booburry

Just an aside and I wouldn’t use this in an argument with a pro-lifer because it does muddy the issues, but JFC! did I not wake up on a planet with over 7 billion people on it? Not to mention a planet with distribution issues and where we already aren’t taking proper care of all of the people we already have? On a planet where ideas have gotten so ugly that I wonder if I deserve to live and the resources I take up because I am sick? You would think that there was some sort of a people shortage or something – and even if there was, it wouldn’t justify forced pregnancy. I cringed a little during the BSG episode that addressed this.

Makes one wonder if Marge Piercy was right in Woman on the Edge of Time where her utopia had tried to do away with sexual dimorphism and reproduction and mothering all together saying this was the only way women would be or could be free and equal. Though in fact she didn’t do away with sexual dimorphism – just deus ex machinaed artificial wombs and hormonally adjusted men to nurse and made child-rearing communal.