Categories
entitled babies evil sex-having women incel ironic nazis irony alert literal nazis men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny reddit twitter

Incels lose it (even more so than usual) after woman jokes about the “aborted girlfriend” meme

whoooooooosh

By David Futrelle 

Incels aren’t really very good at the whole “humor” thing. Last week, I wrote about the “Imaginary Girlfriend” meme in which an earnest stick-figure woman declares that if she hadn’t been aborted she could have grown up to be every incel’s dream girl. “Sorry I couldn’t be there for you,” she says. “But my mom had other plans … would have liked to have a lot of kids with you.”

*Shudder*

To me, the meme looked more like the work of a troll doing a pitch-perfect parody of incel logic than an actual incel meme, but a lot of other people thought it looked real, and it certainly could be. One of these people tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/BobbieA10284800/status/1018114427705585665

Well, long story short, some incel found the tweet and posted it to the Braincels subreddit. And the incels there, not all of whom knew what she was referring to, lost their shit.

fuckbitchesman 36 points 1 day ago Baby killing whore. Burn in hell. permalinkembedunsavereportgive goldreply [–]Zyklon_Bae 23 points 1 day ago Women are soulless Golem. permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply [–]Bobodzadza 14 points 1 day ago Fact

Detoxified- 19 points 1 day ago Daily reminder that women's rights were a mistake.

vrcodemonkey 27 points 1 day ago All woman's thinking is sick. They are a disgusting degenerate creature. Guarantee she finds another Chad and gets fucked first night and eventually aborts another. Horrible horrible fucking nasty creatures

AyeThatsAGoodNaggercucked beyond recognition 17 points 1 day ago Supporting abortion is the epitome of female illogic, narcissism, emotionalism, sexual incontinence, and unwillingness to accept the consequences of their own actions.

Huh. Not having a baby when you don’t want to have a baby seems pretty logical to me.

One fellow fantasized about beating her up — and her liking it.

futmut 11 points 1 day ago I would love to hear her jokes from her mouth while i punch her face like a sack of shit as she is...who knows, she might even get excited from that😉

This lovely fellow suggested genital mutilation:

HailSatancel 3 points 20 hours ago She should get her pussy sown shut tbh

Still others reminded us that most incels are only a step or two away (if that) from being straight up Nazis.

based_meme 2 points 1 day ago Is this what you want , Western civilization? Is this this the kind of degenerate filth you want perpetuating society?

Inceller 5 points 1 day ago Women are subhuman trash. Lower than insects

Lovely.

Naturally she gained some new fans on Twitter as well, some of whom also appear to be Nazis or near-Nazis.

https://twitter.com/Archeon_/status/1019045553139838977

https://twitter.com/FashKermit/status/1019260806779809792

I’m still not sure why posting a picture of a delicious looking Arby’s roast beef sandwich, intended to suggest that a woman is a “roastie” who has had so much sex that her labia have mysteriously grown larger and more roast-beef-like, as if that’s really a thing, is considered an “own,” even by these idiots. Sex is good; Arby’s roast beef sandwiches are good. The two of them together would be fantastic, with the only real drawback being the slight danger of getting horsey sauce on a tender area.

It remains funny to me, in a sad sort of way, that incels — whose personalities are basically a collection of red flags — have managed to convince themselves and each other that women hate them for their looks.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

277 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

Yeah, it’s supposed to be a “damn hard decision” but it’s not. It’s my decision to make, and I’m competent to make it for myself. I don’t need concern-trolling BS from people who think I need their permission or approval.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@Hippodameia
Especially when they don’t even know all the measures already taken to erode our rights.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

@kupo

Well, we’re allowed to have rights as long as we don’t try to exercise them.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Kupo, I’m sorry if anything I said offended you in anyway truly but I’ve been saying over and over again that I’m wondering if it is immoral and I’m leaning toward it’s not immoral. I was asking what other people thought cuz I thought it was a little ambiguous killing something that was alive, anything at all, that’s why I brought up the mouse. So I don’t understand the comment you made saying I specifically said having an abortion is a immoral act.

Second, wow I was a lot like a super huge amount more ignorant on the topic of pregnancy in general not just abortion then I ever suspected. I had no clue that a normal pregnancy was like dangerous! I’ve never wanted kids it’s just something that has not ever appealed to me ever in my life. Having the responsibility for another life as I’ve said before I prefer to have a significant other that pretty much takes responsibility for my life at least in a dominant-submissive sense. I really have no responsibilities I don’t choose because I’m a frivolous pothead slacker and I hate responsibility LOL.

So apparently I had a lot of assumptions that were just completely untrue and I have no idea really where they even came from. I guess cultural and societal reinforcement and like pop culture and the media and stuff maybe? But I thought the great majority like 90% of pregnancies completely safe and even mostly pleasant. I thought you got like morning sickness a little nausea which is not fun but I personally have a weak stomach I get nauseous all the time it’s not a huge deal. And I thought that you were extra hungry a lot and probably more tired as the baby gets bigger.

But I also thought pregnant women felt really good lots of the time, like aren’t pregnant women supposed to have a glow? And I’ve only known a couple of pregnant women even reasonably well. I guess 3 precisely over my entire life cuz most of my friends don’t want kids either. And two of those three really did seem thrilled and I guess as the common cliche goes glowing. And the third one didn’t seem unhappy the just a bit of a nihilist in general lol so yeah no glowing there. So I’ve only read the comments I haven’t followed the links but as the people who know what I do for work know I have lots of breaks while I work and I’m going to make sure to do that.

Again thank you for the information and lastly for now to the person who said I was tone policing, I disagree and maybe I’m splitting hairs but I think asking a community of people that you’ve been friendly with to not be directly hostile because you are debating in good faith and honestly just want to be informed does not quite fit the definition. I’m not saying that everyone always has to be perfectly polite in every situation and if you’re not civil then your arguments are invalid or anything like that

I’m just saying I truly want to understand and given that most people here are aware that I’m a over sensitive emotional high strung person. I’m just not going to understand information being given to me if I’m feeling attacked. That is just truth it’s not objective. I can’t understand when I feel like people are attacking me. I just start getting overwrought as you can see in some of the comments I left. I don’t understand why if people are part of a reasonably friendly community why they would want that. Isn’t it better for me to learn and be less ignorant? Again I’m honestly asking I don’t see why the other option is desirable.

Okie dokie I got to go meet a customer so I will definitely read up on the way talking about what pregnancy does just in general. Cuz apparently I literally was about as wrong as I could possibly be in that situation. Or I guess not exactly wrong, just the literal epitome of ignorant because I had no solid opinion on how a pregnancy goes in general cuz I really never thought about it before. Hope everyone is having a great Friday and will have a lovely weekend

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Here’s a couple of essays/articles that might help illuminate the effects of pregnancy on the pregnant person:
https://aeon.co/essays/why-pregnancy-is-a-biological-war-between-mother-and-baby

A list of the reproductive ills that afflict our species might start with placental aburption, hyperemesis gravidarum, gestational diabetes, cholestatis and misscarriage, and carry on from there. In all, about 15% of women suffer life-threatening complications during each pregnancy. […] Even with the help of modern medicine, pregnancy still kills about 800 women every day worldwide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-eclampsia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestational_diabetes

So on and so forth. Pregnancy and childbirth can be incredibly harrowing experiences when the pregnancy is wanted. It”s nothing short of torture when the pregnancy is unwanted, at least in my opinion.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Kupo, I’m sorry if anything I said offended you in anyway truly but I’ve been saying over and over again that I’m wondering if it is immoral and I’m leaning toward it’s not immoral. I was asking what other people thought cuz I thought it was a little ambiguous killing something that was alive, anything at all, that’s why I brought up the mouse. So I don’t understand the comment you made saying I specifically said having an abortion is a immoral act.

Seriously? You compared abortion to killing a mouse. A living, feeling, intelligent being. How the hell is that not immoral? And I wasn’t just addressing you. There were others talking about how it’s something to feel guilty about or that it is always a difficult choice, etc.

I thought you got like morning sickness a little nausea which is not fun but I personally have a weak stomach I get nauseous all the time it’s not a huge deal.

I have IBS and get migraines, so I get nausea frequently. It’s not at all the same as being so sick you can’t keep anything down, which morning sickness does to many people. For me, it was okay as long as I avoided certain foods, but I terminated early so who knows if it would have gotten worse. For one woman I know, it was all day sickness that lasted all the way through her pregnancy. Nine months of throwing up all day every day. While a parasite saps nutrients from you. Not a huge deal?

Again thank you for the information and lastly for now to the person who said I was tone policing, I disagree and maybe I’m splitting hairs but I think asking a community of people that you’ve been friendly with to not be directly hostile because you are debating in good faith and honestly just want to be informed does not quite fit the definition.

Yes, it does. You’re thanking the people who put in the extra emotional labor into educating you with a nicer tone. We are under constant attack by people making the same arguments you make to try and restrict our access to medical care simply because we have a uterus instead of a penis.

I’m just saying I truly want to understand and given that most people here are aware that I’m a over sensitive emotional high strung person. I’m just not going to understand information being given to me if I’m feeling attacked. That is just truth it’s not objective. I can’t understand when I feel like people are attacking me. I just start getting overwrought as you can see in some of the comments I left. I don’t understand why if people are part of a reasonably friendly community why they would want that. Isn’t it better for me to learn and be less ignorant? Again I’m honestly asking I don’t see why the other option is desirable.

The thing is, we’re under no obligation to teach you. You’re making arguments that actively hurt some of us, and their feelings at seeing those arguments are frankly more important than your feelings about their reactions. They’re allowed to feel angry and upset because women are constantly having to fight for our bodily autonomy. I am at increased risk for a condition that nearly killed my mom. If I become pregnant I could easily die. This is not just a hypothetical to me. I take a risk every time I have sex, because contraception sometimes fails even when used properly. I don’t have to be nice to you when you’re making the same arguments as people who would rather I die than get medical treatment I might need one day. Neither does anyone else. Now, I’m trying to keep a nice tone but I know I’ve lost my patience and become angry a few times in this thread. I’m not going to apologize for sometimes getting snippy, though. It’s a valid reaction.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Thank you Catalpa for more links I really am going to read them. If anyone has other information they think would be useful to me please give more links or just say so. I would love to have more information on this topic because obviously I had the views I had initially because of how I was raised and just being woefully ignorant about pregnancy. Since I never planned to have one I’ve never even really thought about it let alone done any kind of research or even vague contemplation about pregnancy.

I have also come to the conclusion that abortion is not immoral. If all the stuff people has told me is true and I’m assuming it is but I’m going to read the links and stuff because proper data is important anecdotes are not data as the saying goes. And killing a mouse isn’t moral. I really thought mice brains were too small for them to think I thought they just operated on instinct if they can think and feel pain of course it’s morally wrong to kill. Like aren’t a lot of fish bigger than mice but I’ve read they don’t really feel pain or think so why when are mice brains are smaller are they more powerful and can do more things? I always caught them and set them free because the snap back traps are barbaric and glue traps are even worse that’s straight up torture.

So again thank you everybody for being so informative when I explained why I was upset. I understand this is a very emotional topic and I understand why some responses I got were hostile. But me personally I just can’t take in information when I feel attacked and I truly was asking in good faith and I would hope that the people who have seen me commenting here for years know that

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

You’re thanking the people who put in the extra emotional labor

Flame me if I’m wrong here, but are you suggesting one shouldn’t thank people for putting in extra labor on one’s behalf? Because I kind of got raised on the notion that that was the kind of thing that thank-yous were for and that to not give thanks in such a situation was grossly impolite.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@Surplus to Requirements
No, it’s more about how she’s calling out the people who didn’t do that. Sorry for being unclear.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Okay now you’re just being unfair. First of all I specifically stated over and over again whether or not it’s a moral issue that is personal not political or even social. It is no one’s decision but your own what you do with your body I specifically said I am against any type of legislation that would keep women from getting abortions or make it more difficult. I think I even said and I will go back and check that not only me but my mother and a number of her friends are not stupid so they’re aware the harder you make it to get abortions the more women die because they’re not going to stop wanting abortions, they’re just going to take what is essentially poison or shove a wire hanger in their vagina.

Not once did I even hint toward the notion that abortion should be in any way restricted. I honestly believe that you should be able to go to the doctor tell them you want an abortion and they should give it to you ASAP. Where, please show me, did I say abortion should be limited in any way? Only argument I made was I’m not sure if it is moral, now I am because of the information I was given. Are you saying it have been better for me to go on with my previous View and not be educated? Cuz I truly don’t understand how you want me to act in this context.

Again you were saying I said things I never said and I understand you are personally very emotional about this topic but that doesn’t give you the right to say I said things that I did not. Second I specifically stated I could understand why some people were being hostile and if they just thought my views were so abhorrent that I should be chastised that’s one thing. But people were mixing giving me information with being hostile with all sorts of other things and not only did it make me somewhat overwrought but it just confused me. Now that I do not see the point in.

Earlier you compared me to someone who came here spouting all sorts of a****** nonsense from the beginning and that I found very hurtful and a ridiculous comparison. You’ve been here for a long time you know good and damn well I’ve said a bunch of ignorant s*** before but never have I debated in bad faith. That person was here in bad faith almost constantly. We are not similar at all. They were purposefully trying to be provocative, it was obvious to many people. I am honestly trying to educate myself and become less ignorant, they were trolling. I think those things are about as different as possible. If they’re not, can you tell me why, please.

I think because (and not even unreasonably I can see why someone would respond like that) as you said if you get pregnant you could die you are taking things I’m saying and maybe completely unconsciously but putting things into them that are not there because maybe you feel attacked just like I did and if that is so I am sincerely sorry. That is not snark I am truly sincerely sorry. But you can’t just keep putting words in my mouth.

Also as a black woman I have a very strong awareness that no one owes anyone education on any topic but I often choose to if it is someone who wants to learn and be better. There are a ridiculous number of white men and women who call themselves Progressive but know nothing about racial issues and can be incredibly offencive by accident. The ones who are truly sorry when that happens and truly want to learn and be a better person why would I not want to help them? That seems selfish to me.

To be very clear I am not talking about assholes or even people who are blase about it, I am talking about people being mean well and just happened have not been taught certain things they are completely oblivious. There’s nothing wrong with ignorance in my eyes there’s a problem with willful ignorance. Is it getting better for them to be informed too? Obviously it’s no one’s obligation but I specifically said if anyone doesn’t mind giving me some advice here I would appreciate it I specifically said in response to that person Megan if no one had it wouldn’t make me like the community less or make you any less awesome people but some people chose to be kind and I truly appreciate it like where is the problem here?

It feels like you want to be angry at me. Maybe that’s just my insecurities and paranoia honestly that’s completely possible LOL but I really haven’t said some of the things you’re saying I did. I’m going to go check out some links now but I’ll come back and see if anyone gave more links or information that could help. Again thank you everybody who was willing to help, obviously you are not obligated but you did it out of the kindness of your heart and that’s why you’re awesome

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

And if literally stating I don’t understand and I’m confused why people are being very hostile when I’m truly asking and good faith is calling them out I apologize I did not see it like that. If I was like you guys are all assholes because you’re not being perfectly nice to me that would be calling out even something less obnoxious than that could be considered calling out. But saying the people who did take the time and kindness and effort to do so are being generous and kind and I appreciate it doesn’t mean the people who aren’t are bad people or doing a bad thing I never said that.

I specifically said even if people just think my views are abhorrent enough to deserve to be chastised I can understand that but mixing up giving me information with being incredibly hostile seems confusing and ineffective to me. That’s just how I feel can you please tell me where I said people who weren’t helping or bad in anyway?

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
2 years ago

If the topic is upsetting and very personal for someone (and this one is for most people here and probably most people who can become pregnant) – it doesn’t matter if you are asking in good faith or because you want to hurt people. Effect is the same.

For example if I drop somehting heavy on your foot, it still hurts even if I mean to drop or accidentally drop. and if you are upset because your foot hurts and angry with me because I hurt your foot, you have a full justification. It will be really unfair if I reply, “I am so upset by your reaction – why are you so upset? I didn’t mean to break your foot!” Correct response will be to try to do what I can to fix the foot or take you to hospital. And later when the pain is gone maybe there is time to discuss if I mean or don’t mean to break your foot, and how to improve my behavior so I will not break feet again.

it’s clear? Maybe it is a silly metaphor.

One more thing, I don’t think it is fair you can make excuse that you are high strung and sensitive to explain your reaction, but then become annoyed when people don’t respond exactly how you prefer. It is true you didn’t call people assholes, but it is also true you don’t try to understand very well *why* what you said hurts and upsets people.

Richard Yinger
Richard Yinger
2 years ago

Not an advocate or anything but is there some reason that these innocents are ignorant of professionals?

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

@KatieKitten420

You came in here asking us to admire people who are “consistently” pro-life. You came in here asking us to admire people who identify with a movement that literally wants to strip our rights away from us, a movement that would be happy to see us dead from desperate, back-alley abortions because we were going to kill a baby so we deserve it. A movement that very well might get its wish in the USA and fully ban abortion instead of just making it ridiculously difficult to access.

Can you see why that may have upset some people? You keep asking for allowances for your own volatile emotional state, surely you can see how you may have induced a similar disordered state in people who are literally under attack by pro-lifers?

Intention isn’t magic. Your actions can still hurt even if you do not mean for them to. It’s still obviously better to NOT mean to hurt someone and to learn from your mistakes, but it doesn’t exempt you from those you hurt being upset about it.

If someone came in here with the best of intentions, talking about how they think that “true” incels who totally respect women’s rights to refuse and definitely aren’t mad about not being handed a relationship on a silver platter are admirable, they would rightfully be laid into here, because the incel movement is a toxic, misogynistic shitheap that literally kills people and wants to strip bodily autonomy from women.

Especially if the incel-apologist then started talking about how there DEFINITELY shouldn’t be enforced relationships/sex slavery, and how rape is wrong, but that it’s just so sad how women who have lots of sex already don’t offer some to the incels. It’s not like a little more sex would change their lives any, sex makes people feel good 90% of the time, right? And poor lonely men who can’t find anyone to have sex with often commit suicide. If the sluts casual sex-having women just had sex with them, they could save lives! Not that they’re obligated to have sex with incels, of course, or that there’s any moral judgement attached to this sentiment, not at all, no siree, but it’s just sad that the incels don’t have women choose to save their lives.

Repeating rhetoric that is used to justify stripping bodily autonomy from people is still offensive, even if the person saying the rhetoric keeps claiming that taking bodily autonomy away isn’t what they want to happen. Does that make sense?

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

Katiekitten420

You’re already in a hole. Stop digging.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

Wow, I’ve been gone for a day and a half. This is for Catalpa. Oh Catalpa, what started out as an answer to a comment ended up being an actual document. Then I started dropping in my citations and quotations and before I knew it, this was a multi-page essay that needs a solid introduction still.

Anyway, here is the google.doc link because it got so long. Don’t in anyway feel obligated to read it. I know this is far, far more than you asked for.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r91o__SZJOBLn7jwBJfaoUWEWTVxV3qLKLzN9cCPqes/edit?usp=sharing

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r91o__SZJOBLn7jwBJfaoUWEWTVxV3qLKLzN9cCPqes/edit?usp=sharing

@KatieKitten

So you really think that forced pregnancy is ok? Or forced abortion for that matter? That a pregnancy is a person? That an embryo is the same as a fully born person? This has never been the ethical stance – ever really, except in the recent wars to keep women and full reproductive freedom as far apart as possible. Bonus points if you can get women to fight each other on the issues. Honest. Women have aborted pregnancies for a very long time, first using herbal methods and the simple expedient of opening the cervix and then surgical methods as they developed. This isn’t anything new. Trust me, as someone who has spent a lot of hours over the last two days dropping in citations about this issue and issues tangential to it, this has never been the case. A pregnant woman is still counted as one individual, not two and there are solid reasons for this, legally and ethically.

We still need full, comprehensive reproductive rights and freedoms and we are a long, long way from this. We need to start with full body autonomy. Women still don’t own their own bodies, which means we don’t own ourselves. You included. Think about this for a moment. It is true. When you get mired in these recent and muddied arguments, you are among other things, ensuring that you yourself don’t have full autonomy. And that you don’t need or deserve autonomy or custody of yourself. What you are essentially saying is not only that you don’t want freedom and autonomy for other women, but that you also don’t want it for yourself. Is this really what you want to say? Is this really how you feel?

It has been said that nobody believes in abortion until they need one and with some people I have seen this principle in action, but should we really deny ourselves and others until we are forced into absolute, experiential empathy because of life circumstances?

What else are we unwittingly saying when we turn this into an ethical issue? That women are only suffered because of their reproductive capacities? That “good” women have babies and “bad” women abort them? What about women who have done both or neither over the course of a lifetime?

This is a serious issue, but not for the reasons you think. The humanity or lack thereof of a fetus obscures the bigger and more relevant issue, that women are not yet accorded full humanity. Maybe we should start there.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

@AuntieMameRedux

Holy crap, you weren’t kidding. This is enormous. I’ll definitely be going through this to further educate myself on the topic.

(If I’m being honest, I asked you only for citations and links because I felt like asking for you to elaborate all your points in detail was demanding too much labor and could be rightfully responded with “how about you read what’s already available on the topic rather than demanding me to teach you a 101 course”. But if you’re willing to put in the effort to compile everything and give me your take/summary on the information, I’m more than happy to take advantage of it!)

I only recently started becoming aware of the ongoing and shameful practice the Canada has of ripping indigenous children away from their communities to place them in foster care (where abuse happens far too often). I’ve always had a rose-coloured view of adoption and (to some extent) fostering. Becoming aware of some of the problems that the system has is making me worried about what else I’m missing, and having some guidance on how to better inform myself on the criticisms of the system will be very much appreciated. Thanks so much for putting it together!

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

@Chimeric Mind and others:

I am not against helping people and children that actually need help. As I said in another post untwisting the arguments that surround abortion, adoption, fostercare and childbirth, the conflation of which is used to deny women and children true freedom and autonomy and reproductive freedom and care, I am against what adoption has become in that it is no longer about caring for women and children but about creating orphans for the market, among other things.

In replying to Catalpa, I ended up with a big essay that STILL doesn’t cover everything I’ve learned over the last thirty years – but it hits the high points, especially in showing that what we think of as adoption is a product of the last 80 to 100 years and of the eugenics movement and absolutely antithetical to any kind of human rights or humanism that you care to name.

@Chimeric Mind –

Your older sister is not the kind of thing that I am talking about. The very opposite in fact. I wrote a long post in this thread about why and how the conflation of abortion, infant and international adoption and foster care is muddying the waters so badly that what happens in actuality is that genuine autonomy, freedom, reproductive rights and proper humanitarian care for everyone gets lost in the shuffle. The reason for these conflations is to cover all manner of crimes and misdemeanors.

Most people who have adopted and seek to adopt wouldn’t have her or a person in similar circumstances with a million in cash added onto the deal. Because their intention and the intention of the industry I am criticizing isn’t about helping people – it is about social eugenics for both mother and child. Your foster sister? Her mind and her identity couldn’t be coopted or stolen. Which makes her value pretty much zero to most adopters and traffickers. Which is why foster children do not cost the kind of money that an international or domestic adoption of an infant of small child costs. I say it in the essay – children are graded and priced accordingly. Women with the most valuable product at the very least aren’t giving informed consent. At the midlevel are being defrauded, coerced and lied to and at the farthest end are being tortured, falsely held until their child is obtained, have their child out and out stolen and it is thought that some women have even been murdered to obtain their children for buyers. Guatemala and Central America were notorious for this.

Her circumstances and her history, while tragic are still her circumstances and history. I am also sure that helping her heal was not an easy task either. Again, this is not what the eugenicists and traffickers are after and not what I am talking about. As I thought I made pretty clear. Talk about a straw man.

Infants and children under five cost a lot to adopt because they are rare. Women have to be coerced under pressure and duress to pry their infants away from them. There are plenty of people talking about their experience in many places around the internet. When a woman’s pregnancy is coopted so that her child can be trafficked into chattel adoption? I don’t see how you can call this anything other than a form of sex slavery form of sexual slavery. Nobody wants to have a child for strangers. What happens when we take the money out of surrogacy and make it an altruistic act? Nobody wants to do it – except in rare cases for a sister or a bestie – and I could only give a citation for a sister volunteering.

Anyway, what began as an answer to catalpa on the history of adoption and why that history isn’t what is commonly thought is at the link provided above. I tried to stick only to the history, illustrating related issues only as I had to, but even in all of that I only scratched the surface. There are also links in that regarding how children are laundered for the international market. Again, I barely scratched the surface

@Skildfreja – I really liked what you had to say about the mind and potential for mind and how that argument can be dealt with.

All of these areas are rife with not only misogyny but human rights abuses. We have to unwind these conflations so that we truly have rights for women and children and reproductive freedom. We aren’t even close.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

@Catalpa –

My pleasure and thank you for reading it. Remember, it isn’t just indigenous people or people of color either. From the 1940s through the early 1990s, a huge effort was undertaken to remove white single mothers from society. This continues to the present day but efforts have been hampered by some of the gains of feminism. And all of it further confused by the fact that trafficking in people is and always has been a profitable business. This is why international adoption and so called open adoption has been so heavily marketed – because the domestic supply is no longer reliable for the brokers. I’m still searching for the industry quote where they essentially planned the marketing in the late eighties. Don’t forget, in Canada it was white mothers too.

Catalpa, wasn’t it you fighting shoulder to shoulder with me in that thread a few weeks back? I honestly thought you were an adoptee.

booburry
booburry
2 years ago

Count me as another person that didn’t have a hard time making the choice to abort. I’ve had 2 abortions and aside from one of them being quite painful (planned parenthood doesn’t typically give you drugs for medical abortions…eek) it was a huge relief more than anything. I would be more apprehensive about dental surgery tbh. The thought of giving birth is horrifying to me.

I also remember that some states require doctors to read scripts to people before abortions that are just scientifically untrue. Things like abortions increase your risk of breast cancer etc. You’d think it’d be something the freeze peach crowd would be up in arms about but heh…yeah right.

Found a link. 26 states !!!! force doctors to blatantly lie to their patients to try and get them to change their mind.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/nz88gx/a-state-by-state-list-of-the-lies-abortion-doctors-are-forced-to-tell-women

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Catalpa, wasn’t it you fighting shoulder to shoulder with me in that thread a few weeks back? I honestly thought you were an adoptee.

I don’t recall anything like that; it must have been someone else. And, nope, I’m not an adoptee. Had a friend in high school who was, but I’ve had very little interaction with the system otherwise.

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

booburry – yeah, somehow that’s all right, but California making “crisis pregnancy centers” admit they have no actual medical staff is a violation of the first amendment . . .

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

@KatiKitten420: I’m the one who said you were tone policing, and you are. You still are. Perhaps a definition will help you to see how this applies:

Tone policing (also tone trolling, tone argument and tone fallacy) is an ad hominem and antidebate appeal based on genetic fallacy. It attempts to detract from the validity of a statement by attacking the tone in which it was presented rather than the message itself.

(Source for this is Wikipedia, here.)

How does this apply to what you have said, you might ask.

On page three, you wrote:

I just woke up to get some juice but thank you very much for the response as I’ve gotten so far that’s what I wanted to get the whole time. I’m so used to everyone here being kind when I’m ignorant because especially when I first came here I was the epitome of naive and ignorant in a lot of ways and I don’t remember people ever getting this hostile towards me and it got me upset so I’m sorry if I got angry or rude or inappropriate in any way to anyone.

On this page, you wrote:

Obviously it’s no one’s obligation but I specifically said if anyone doesn’t mind giving me some advice here I would appreciate it I specifically said in response to that person Megan if no one had it wouldn’t make me like the community less or make you any less awesome people but some people chose to be kind and I truly appreciate it like where is the problem here?

You only thanked those who were polite to you, and ignored the rest. You essentially said that the other replies did not matter, because they weren’t speaking to you in the perfect way.

From the same wiki page:

In Keith Bybee’s How Civility Works, he notes that feminists, Black Lives Matter protesters, and anti-war protesters have been told to “calm down and try to be more polite”. He argues that tone policing is a means to deflect attention from injustice and relocate the problem in the style of the complaint, rather than address the complaint itself.

You’re telling people who have very reasonable reactions to things that threaten them to calm down and walk you through this. Some people might have the spoons for that, others might not.

I appreciate all of the people (especially the not-men) on this blog who are forceful and say things. So much of the time women are told to be pleasant and not make a scene, it is amazing to have people here who say ‘no, fuck that, this is IMPORTANT and you will LISTEN TO ME.’

Remember, these posts aren’t only for you. If you see someone saying something that you can’t let stand, (and you have the spoons), you say something. For the lurkers.

I don’t know how many people read the comments on this site, but you see them popping up all the time saying “I learn so much here.”

This is why. People correct injustices, sometimes sharply, sometimes with an explanation and links (like I’m doing.) Neither is better than the other, as long as someone isn’t attacking someone else but rather their ideas/statements, then *shrug*.

(trolls don’t count though, as they are not here in good faith. I think you are, which is why I’m spending time to explain things to you again.)

You also said:

Second I specifically stated I could understand why some people were being hostile and if they just thought my views were so abhorrent that I should be chastised that’s one thing. But people were mixing giving me information with being hostile with all sorts of other things and not only did it make me somewhat overwrought but it just confused me. Now that I do not see the point in.

They did think your views were abhorrent, and they did chastise you. They were hostile to your ideas, because these ideas are inherently hostile to them. As I said, I’m sorry that you are having to come to terms with things you did not know and how your parents presented the world. That sucks.

But that’s growing up.

Also, saying that people shouldn’t be hostile to you is attempting to control how they speak to you. Their tone, if you will. Which you were, how would I put that… Controlling? No, that’s not right. Perhaps… Policing?

That is not snark I am truly sincerely sorry. But you can’t just keep putting words in my mouth.

You need to show where someone has done this. All they have done (that I have seen) is take you at your words. We don’t know the thought processes behind them, just what you say.

Might I remind you that you came into the thread asking us to applaud your mother and her group for being proper pro-lifers, because they don’t believe in the death penalty, and only think that it is morally wrong to have an abortion.

Can you see now why you got so much pushback?

You asked us not to conflate your mom+friends with the pro-life group in general, but if that is what they choose to call themselves, that is the group they are a part of.

If I say I am a trekkie, you can guess that I like star trek. Words mean things.

Labels like ‘pro-life’ are shorthand for how someone sees themselves. If they believed in no-strings attached abortion, they would call themselves ‘pro-choice’. Since they attach a morality judgement to it, they are not pro-choice, but rather pro-life.

(I am happy, btw, that you have decided that abortions are not immoral. Please do follow the links and read up about pregnancy, why a wanted pregnancy would be terminated, or why an unwanted pregnancy would be. Like they say on Reading Rainbow, you don’t have to take my word for it! Think about the arguments, and internalise them. You’ll need to be able to fit them together in the way that makes sense for you, your upbringing, your family, and your community. You’ll need to be able to defend yourself beyond going “Someone told me this on the internet!”

It’s part of growing up as well, and it’s so difficult some times.

That’s why I keep reading the comments here, I learn all kinds of stuff all the time that I never even thought about, or that I never even had an idea that I had never thought about.)

Back to what you said!

Also as a black woman I have a very strong awareness that no one owes anyone education on any topic but I often choose to if it is someone who wants to learn and be better. (…) The ones who are truly sorry when that happens and truly want to learn and be a better person why would I not want to help them? That seems selfish to me.

What if it’s a PRATT? From Rational Wiki:

A point refuted a thousand times, commonly abbreviated as PRATT, refers to a point or argument that has literally been refuted so many times that it is not worth bothering with.

These include things like #notallmen, or “why wouldn’t giving sex to incels solve everything?” They are tiring, bullshit 101 level things that are just frustrating to repeat.

They are easily googleable. They are things that come up once every few months in people’s lives. They are babies first steps into awareness and intersectionalism.

Sometimes people have the strength to help a new someone into the light. Sometimes they will direct them to other places where they (or someone else, this is a PRATT) has done so. Sometimes they will let you know that it isn’t our job to hold your hand while you learn, since this is all pretty easily googleable.

Some people have the energy to walk someone through it, some people don’t. Sometimes it varies. Sometimes a community is just DONE with X topic, because X topic is consistently under attack and oh no a new supreme court justice is going to be named, the second, it’s going to swing the supreme court rightward, he’s going to be -10 years old and be on it for the next seven thousand years, and the likely candidate is going to do something to make Roe vs Wade basically useless…?

Also Ireland just got abortion up to 12 weeks (so the government says). Here’s a link explaining the issues in the referendum. This was written before, but the pro-choicers won!

Northern Ireland still has incredibly restrictive abortion laws, meaning people need to travel out of their country to get an abortion.

Also Argentina is fighting for abortion rights.

This is just off the top of my head. Do you see why you hit a nerve?

To be very clear I am not talking about assholes or even people who are blase about it, I am talking about people being mean well and just happened have not been taught certain things they are completely oblivious. There’s nothing wrong with ignorance in my eyes there’s a problem with willful ignorance.

You… Came in here talking about pregnancy… Without knowing how terrifyingly bad it can go…. I mean…

Just read a bunch of Dr. Jen Gunter. I linked her ‘abortion’ tag above, have the ‘pregnancy’ one here.

From what you’ve said, I’m thinking maybe you might want to learn a bit more about these sorts of things.

Here’s a list over at buzzfeed with a bunch of links to places to learn.

There are all sorts of things there, I hope you have a chance to go through them!

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

@Catalpa – Thanks, I will go and look and see who it was.

@Booburry

Just an aside and I wouldn’t use this in an argument with a pro-lifer because it does muddy the issues, but JFC! did I not wake up on a planet with over 7 billion people on it? Not to mention a planet with distribution issues and where we already aren’t taking proper care of all of the people we already have? On a planet where ideas have gotten so ugly that I wonder if I deserve to live and the resources I take up because I am sick? You would think that there was some sort of a people shortage or something – and even if there was, it wouldn’t justify forced pregnancy. I cringed a little during the BSG episode that addressed this.

Makes one wonder if Marge Piercy was right in Woman on the Edge of Time where her utopia had tried to do away with sexual dimorphism and reproduction and mothering all together saying this was the only way women would be or could be free and equal. Though in fact she didn’t do away with sexual dimorphism – just deus ex machinaed artificial wombs and hormonally adjusted men to nurse and made child-rearing communal.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

Oops forgot to point out how assigning immorality to something = making it much more difficult for someone to access, because they will be shamed for doing so.

But since I’ve said this a few times now (with no response), I guess I’ll just say it again.

When you make something immoral, you make it hard to access. People want to be good, usually, and a good person doesn’t get an abortion.

(Unless you’re a pro-life republican and your mistress is preggers, AMIRITE GUYS~????)

So, once again, your mother/group assigning a morality to it might not be the same thing as legislating it, but they are. They’re just doing it socially instead of using the judicial system.

Damn you edit window, at the end of that last post, by ‘these sorts of things’, I meant sex-ed.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Okay again for the 18th time someone please I’m begging you show me where I said abortion was definitively moral or there should be any way to make it harder I specifically said not only me but the people I’m speaking of do not want to make abortion harder in fact they would be fine with it being easier because or else you end up with women dying with wire hangers in their vaginas I just woke up but no people are being reactive because of the topic and assuming I’m saying things that I’m not saying like not into actually words that I’m not saying you are putting words in my mouth I never said I asked if abortion was I never said it was then I said Thank you to people who are nice to me because what should I do thank the people who were mean to me what I honestly don’t understand what is expected for me there I didn’t tell people they shouldn’t speak that way I said if they want me to learn something from what they’re saying they shouldn’t speak that way. They’re grown-ups obviously they can say what they damn well please who am I to tell them not to anyway I literally just woke up and I am still appalled by people just it seems purposefully misunderstanding me. I never said pretty much anything you just said I said in that long-ass comment Catalpa. And I don’t under understand how they’re exactly the same because they disdainfully called normal pro-life people Pro birth because that’s all they give a f*** about and they think yes maybe abortion can be immoral depending on the situation but like I said 18 thousand times they want women to be able to acquire it because if a woman can’t acquire one it doesn’t stop her she do what I said before or literally throw yourself down the stairs or take poison and my mom has three degrees she’s aware of it so why do people keep saying things I didn’t say?

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

STOP DIGGING.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

I’m sorry, what? You didn’t say anything I said that you said? I can go back to the other pages of this thread, you know.

You said that your pro-life family members were admirable, and implied that the rest of the commentariat should also find them admirable. You said that people who believe that abortion is murder and that all abortion is wrong are admirable.

Because I don’t understand how you can think it’s truly murder but then say well if you got raped murder is fine, in that case how do two wrongs make a right? If you honestly believe abortion is truly murder, no ambiguity, how does adding murder to rape make things more morally upright?

I guess I understand why someone might find that point of view disturbing but at least they’re consistent. They think life is utterly sacred and you always protect life no matter what, at least they’re consistent and I can respect that.

What do people here think of that point of view, do you think because they’re consistent even if you don’t personally agree with then that its admirable? Do you think that being actively pro-life(for example one of these women has taken in 37 foster children in the last 46 years my mom told me) is admirable?

You said that your ‘admirable’ and ‘true’ pro-life family members believe that abortion is wrong unless the mother’s life is in danger.

Like they don’t want to legislate abortion but they personally feel it’s morally wrong except in cases where the mother’s life or health is in danger.

You said that they think that women who have abortions should have been more careful with their contraception, because only the pregnancies that have the potential to be lethal for the mother are ‘reasonable’.

They just think you should take every reasonable precaution against unwanted pregnancies.(and let’s be honest, a lot of people don’t come close to doing that, especially if they are college-age or younger. Isn’t it better to use protection than to eventually kill a zygote? And if not, why?)Obviously if the mother’s health or life is in danger abortion is perfectly reasonable and not immoral in their eyes.

Guess what? Publically talking about how something is bad and immoral is also trying to prevent people from doing that thing, even if you don’t try to pass a law against it! Saying “hey, rape jokes are really shitty” is probably going to make people around you think twice about rape jokes, even if you don’t pass anti-rape-joke legislation. That’s how social pressure works.

You said that you thought that pregnancy was no big deal anyway, that a fetus just becomes a baby and that pregnancy is mostly pleasant.

Bacteria and tumors and stuff like that are they are trying to harm you and make you sick. The other just will turn into a baby sometime if it is wanted and not miscarried

But I thought the great majority like 90% of pregnancies completely safe and even mostly pleasant.

Sure, you said a bunch of No True Scotsman things about how your family are ‘true’ pro-lifers and totally don’t want to prevent women from obtaining abortions. Guess what? They still fucking decide to identify as pro-life, despite the pro-life movement being entirely about denying the reproductive rights of women. You want me to admire that? Do you want me to admire the ‘true’ incels who are just sad that they’re too ugly to be dated but TOTALLY don’t want women to be killed/enslaved? Do you want me to admire the ‘true’ All Lives Matter people who are just worried about all lives and TOTALLY don’t want black people to just shut up about being viciously oppressed? Do you want me to admire the ‘true’ Gamer Gaters who just care about ethics in video game journalism and TOTALLY don’t want to harass all women out of video game culture and development? Do you want me to admire ‘true’ Men’s Rights Activists, who just really care about men’s rights and TOTALLY don’t want to just shut down any feminist movement? Do you want me to admire ‘true’ White Nationalists who just want to appreciate European culture and TOTALLY don’t want to exterminate other races?

No. Fuck that. If someone identifies as a part of an abhorrent group that is expressly formed for the purposes of abhorrent things, they’re getting nothing but scorn from me. I don’t give a shit about how much they TOTALLY don’t agree with all the abhorrent shit the group stands for and does. They still decide to be a part of that group, which says to me that they’re not so different from the others, they just apparently care more about optics than some of the others. And anyone who wants me to admire that shit can kiss my ass.

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Katiekitten420 – I don’t know if bringing my personal experience into this will help, but I understand getting defensive when criticized. I don’t respond well to criticism either, and it makes me stressed out… especially at work, where both my bosses have questioned my diligence and mental capacities (albeit when under stress themselves) when I’ve made simple mistakes. Then, when they make legitimate critiques, it feels like an attack, so I have to work harder to calm down the defensive reflexes. It can be a vicious cycle.

But from what I read here, no one’s not attacking you.* This is important. They’re attacking the idea that a so-called pro-life stance is benevolent. The words “pro-life” might sound good, but they’ve been used to limit women’s freedoms.

You were also defending your mother’s friends, which makes sense. They’re probably good in many ways. But it doesn’t mean that people will accept that they’re right to use the term pro-life. Personally, I don’t know whether they spread harmful myths about abortions. They could be. Even then, you don’t have to hate them. My mother has some homophobic ideas, as I wrote, but I don’t hate her. It does distance me a little from her, unfortunately.

*There was one comment from a non-regular commenter about not wanting to “hold your hand through this” (paraphrasing) that sounded harsh to me, but it wasn’t the majority. Anyway, I’m sorry that you were upset.

speed0spank
speed0spank
2 years ago

This is getting…frustrating. You seem to be beating around the bush a lot and then acting very shocked when people read your words for context.

They just think you should take every reasonable precaution against unwanted pregnancies.(and let’s be honest, a lot of people don’t come close to doing that, especially if they are college-age or younger. Isn’t it better to use protection than to eventually kill a zygote? And if not, why?)Obviously if the mother’s health or life is in danger abortion is perfectly reasonable and not immoral in their eyes.

You continuously defended these people who are run of the mill judgemental, that think any abortion outside of their strict idea of what is right and good is immoral or bad. They clearly don’t think women can make good choices for themselves. This is ignoring the part about young people being soooo irresponsible.

They realize that there’s a lot of nuance and shades of grey and like Susan some women just get it into unfortunate situations where abortion is the only truly reasonable course of action. For example if you get pregnant and you truly can’t afford to raise a baby. My mother for example think that was a horribly unfortunate situation but she wouldn’t think that the woman should have a baby that she can’t feed or clothes or raise well because she can’t afford to.

Again, they understand abortion when it fits their narrow view of unfortunate circumstance.

Don’t assume their motivations and actions are the same or even always similar to the majority of people who call themselves pro-life. Technically politically yes they are pro-choice. But personally and morally they are pro-life and the people I’m speaking of view this as a substantial part of who they are as a person. So I honestly don’t understand what people here think they should refer to themselves as if not pro-life because by truest definition of the words that’s exactly what they are and much more so than the people who claim the term so often for themselves in my opinion.

This has been explained many times but I feel like humanitarian would be much better fitting than trying to take the name of an extremely well known political movement, and then getting confused when people think they’re part of a very well known political movement.

Also apparently my personal experience is just unusual in the situation because as a teenager yes I definitely saw many people get pregnant through carelessness and I’m horny so I don’t want to take 2 minutes to get a condom. Like this is something I saw happen many times not two or three so if that’s and carelessness is not one of the larger causes of teen pregnancy then that is very happy making but remember I’m talking like 15 to 20 years .

This just had me confused because I don’t know how you can possibly know the personal circumstances of so many people, what they’re thinking in their brains unless you were in the room watching them have sex and listening to their conversations leading up to it. Shit, I had no idea how many people in my school were on birth control or what method of contraception they used. Maybe my close friends would share that info with me but enough people for me to judge young people as a whole? Nah. This is also the fault of parents/schools/ government for not making contraception easily available to young people. Telling young people not to fuck when everything in their hormone filled bodies is telling them to fuck is not a failing on the kid’s part. When I lost my virginity it was a fucking mission impossible scenario just trying to get my hands in a single condom.

Whether it is immoral I think is completely ambiguous up to you and your morality and if you do find it immoral that’s irrelevant to anyone but you. Example, I’m on the fence about it. I honestly am not sure whether I think it’s even a bit immoral. I’m also on the fence about the mice when they’re in your house chewing holes in your stuff, is killing them immoral? I mean I honestly am not sure they’re living creatures, they are happy in they’re little rodent lives I assume and when they come in our space a lot of people literally and in this case I am using the right word straight up murder them sometimes they torture them first. If you don’t believe a glue trap is a form of torture I don’t know what to tell you you’re just wrong.

And it’s kind of inherently a moral position or judgement to compare abortion to purposefully killing a thinking, feeling animal in my opinion. If you think torturing it would be wrong, how would murdering it not be wrong? You may disagree that it’s a moral judgement but…that’s how I see it.

Anyway, you can make moral judgments without specifically saying THIS ACTION IS IMMORAL. We make tons of moral judgements all day every day in ordinary conversation.

Dear lord please let the formatting on this be okay.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Whoops, I lost my temper and used some swear words. Now my comment is just going to be read as an attack and completely ignored. Or possibly used to ‘prove’ how the commentariat is unfair and mean. Darn.

Oh, well. Trying to be polite and civil and charitable and clearly explain what the issue is while providing analogies to try to make the point more easily digestible also didn’t manage to make a single dent in things either. So I suppose there’s just nothing that can be done. The only thing that will be acceptable is “Oh, of course your loved ones are perfect and would never cause harm, not even unintentionally! Pro-life people (the ‘real’ ones of course) are great! No need to examine any of your personal views any further!”

A. Noyd
A. Noyd
2 years ago

Katiekitten420

I was a lot like a super huge amount more ignorant on the topic of pregnancy in general not just abortion then I ever suspected. I had no clue that a normal pregnancy was like dangerous!

Mmhmm. Maybe ask yourself a bit more about just how you came to be so ignorant of the realities of pregnancy. Could it possibly have something to do with the sort of education (or lack thereof) you got from your mom and her circle of #not-all-pro-lifers?

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

It gets worse. What happens when such pregnancy myths are internalized by a woman, and then she has a pregnancy that proves difficult, or discomforting, or even takes a dangerous turn?

She’ll self-blame, thinking it’s something wrong with her rather than the information she had…

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

@KatieKitten420 – You know what? I’m out. I don’t know how to explain this to you, you clearly aren’t ready to hear any of this.

You ask us to show you where you say ‘these things’ and to ‘not put words in your mouth’… Where? Seriously, I am QUOTING YOU. Everyone is quoting you. I even gave you the page number!

Words mean things. What you say *means things*. It might not mean what you thought it did, because we are all coming at this from a different perspective. But if someone is interpreting what you said in a way that it seems like everyone else agrees with, then perhaps your meaning is not coming through.

Or, perhaps, you’re just wrong.

If you want to continue the conversation, I am going to need you to quote me (or anyone) where we ‘put words in your mouth’. (Or, really, anything you want to reply to.) And then explain what you mean, or how you think we twisted ‘my mom thinks abortion is morally wrong but doesn’t want it legislated’, because as multiple people have said… Social stigmatisation WORKS. That’s why we do it.

Blockquote but either using the button in the reply window (you’ll have to have javascript enabled) or by typing [blockquote]TEXT[/blockquote] replacing the []s with s.

Otherwise, I am tapping out on this, I was *hoping* my comment where I quoted you specifically and gave resources would give you something to engage with.

Instead, I get a single run on sentence about how we are so mean to you. You have got a lot of our time, and you aren’t listening, and it is very frustrating.

Because right now, it looks like you’re angry that people keep telling you that Words Mean Things, and that you can’t just wave a magic ‘intent’ wand over your words and have us all skip away happy into the sunset.

This shit is serious.

Pro-choicers and forced-birthers aren’t going to be friends dancing in a meadow, because one side sees people with uteri as fully functioning people with control over their own bodies, and the other does not.

It might be time for you to step away from this thread now, and think about what was said and how you reacted.

Re: Catalpa – I KNOW. I haven’t sworn, but I feel like I have been brushed off as well. aaaaaah

Re: A.Noyd – that is why I linked to a bunch of sex-ed. I’m pretty concerned with how much KatieKitten knows, especially if she thinks the only thing that can go wrong with pregnancy is morning sickness which is also nbd.

A friend had extreme morning sickness her entire pregnancy. Also, your sense of smell ramps up to 11, so if something that would upset her stomach was anywhere around her, she knew.

It was not a good pregnancy, and not a good time for her. And she wanted the baby.

Re: Surplus – There’s also the problem of postpartum depression, where someone who has given birth is just depressed. It is so stigmatised, because didn’t you want this baby? Parents are happy and bubbly and run around in fields with their kids who are perfect!

*deep sigh*

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

No I actually am not feeling agitated anymore I was having a bad day the other day and this on top of a lot of other things got me more upset than I should have been. Like I said I completely understand the hostility especially for people whose lives it’s very strongly affected but I don’t get why the two words pro life in of them selves are worth more than the actions people take and I also don’t understand why not being Pro choice personally adamantly in public means you want there to be restrictions when I specifically stated that is something they have petitioned the Vatican about because they don’t want restrictions. They realize that doesn’t stop abortions it just makes women die and harm themselves within the ocean when that’s what they believe how are you saying that they are for restricting abortion when they quite explicitly stated that would just kill more women. I said this like you said I can scroll back and see what I said and I said this earlier but I don’t know how to make the little block thing. And honestly I appreciate the links you shared and the information you’ve given me I have no anger or hostility toward you but it really seems to me that you are cherry picking. Why not mention the part that I just stated along with what you put in the little box. This is a personal issue to my mother and everyone. They wouldn’t really bring it up in public at all they would think it was inappropriate in most cases. They think it is personal not social or political

And yes I do know what the people in my high school did that was the first time I was popular and I literally had hundreds of friends and I know when a good half of them lost their virginity and how in the circumstances surrounding it. That’s a thing teenagers tend to share at least that’s how it worked for me. You can think I’m a liar if you like but yes I spoke to about Id estimate between 100 + 200 teenagers in high school and college about the circumstances under which they lost their virginity. Hell lets even round it down to a hundred so I’m positive. Yes because as you say getting condoms could be an adventure and very difficult some people were very horny and just didn’t bother. That happened often enough.I don’t know why you’re telling me that it didn’t happen.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Okay thank you for teaching me the block quotes thing I’m going to use it in about half an hour. I’m working on and off right now and like I said I overreacted earlier. No one especially anyone who gave me information do I have any hostility or anger to I have thanks and gratefulness to you. I’m getting very I don’t know what the word is extra LOL maybe because I’m just so utterly confused. Thank you again everybody not just people who are nice

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

No-one here is going to find forced-birthers admirable. Holes. Digging. Stop.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

This is a personal issue to my mother and everyone. They wouldn’t really bring it up in public at all they would think it was inappropriate in most cases. They think it is personal not social or political

If they don’t bring up their views in public, then how do you know about them?

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

One of them is my mom 2 practically raised me and I went to church with the others for years till I started High School and had dinner with them on Sundays until I decided that organized religion just didn’t really work for me. When I started High School me and my mom had a huge drag Down fight because I refuse to go to church anymore cuz I thought the Catholic church had caused far more harm than good

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Ah, so women shouldn’t be told that abortions are immoral by random people on the street, but being told such things by their family and the members of their close social circle is totally fine and definitely won’t cause any kind of social pressure on them. Yes, that makes complete sense.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
2 years ago

@KatieKitten

I started writing this post and then stopped and then started again. First, really? You’ve never heard of pregnancy related health problems, sometimes severe? You’ve never heard of death during childbirth? Hint, this still happens. You’ve never heard of post-pregnancy related problems, including as a poster above mentioned post-partum depression but also what is still called childbed fever – and yes, still kills people.

These are the bad ones, but even a pregnancy that falls into the normal range can still be difficult and I find it hard to believe that this is just unknown to you. Which is why, among other reasons, I shut up.

But the circumstances of one hundred to two hundred people who lost their virginity? And whether or not they used birth control based on how “horny” they were? I think that my BS detector just broke.

Listen KatieKitten, if you want to be pro-life, be that. You will have a lot of company – even if it is woman hating company. But beware because you are a woman and based on your posts a young woman. Women get judged and punished for everything, everything. There might come a time that the shoe is on the other foot and you find all of the judgment women face turned against you.

It seems what you really want is for us to agree that abortion really is killing cute little babies but under very, very limited circumstances, it might be the lesser of evils. Well, we can’t do that and people have explained extensively, cogently and kindly why that is and what the benefits are to you to examine what you think and why. Why are you so unwilling to do that?

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

I don’t get why the two words pro life in of them selves are worth more than the actions people take

They take the action of aligning with a group whose sole purpose is to restrict the rights of people with uterine. They take the action of calling themselves pro-life. They take the action of calling abortion wrong except in very specific circumstances which are a) personal and b) none of their god damn business.

and I also don’t understand why not being Pro choice personally adamantly in public means you want there to be restrictions

They tell others, to the point where you know extremely specific details of ten (!) different women’s views on the topic and it has obviously very heavily influenced your views. Influencing people’s views towards believing a pregnancy is a life, towards believing it should only be used in a specific subset of situations they deem worthy, while never taking the care to ensure you even understand what a pregnancy entails, those actions place social restrictions. This keeps getting explained and keeps getting ignored.

And, once more, having a stance that abortion is only okay in some circumstances is not and will not ever be a feminist stance. It is inherently misogynistic. There is no part of that stance that I or many others here will agree with.

My bodily autonomy is infringed upon when people like your friends (and no, they’re not special or unique; all the “pro-life” people I’ve heard argue their side say these exact things) continue to voice their opinions of other people’s choices, especially when they attempt to make it seem like they really do care about the welfare of the pregnant person.

You’re not going to convince us your friends are somehow progressive or worthy of admiration for this view of theirs. Are they worthy of admiration for other things? I don’t doubt it for a second. But that’s not what you’re here asking us about.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

And really forced birthers okay at least that is not even really like anything I said I have no desire to have children my mom couldn’t care less. Honestly she thinks the world is overpopulated. None of these people want to force anyone to have babies at all! I don’t even understand where you got that from! Everything else that people have disagreed with I sometimes feel like they cherry-picked things but they’re not just out of the blue but that forced birthing statement I have no clue where you even derived it from any of my words. And also I actually asked my mom(I live with her) when I woke up a little about this cuz she was running out the door she said immoral isn’t the word she would use about abortion she would say it’s a sin yes but swearing and working on the Sabbath and many things that she does are also sins. By her faith humans sin as part of their nature, they can’t help it. Of course since it’s considered part of being a human it doesn’t make you a bad person. I actually don’t believe in the concept of sin since I was 14. But point being never once have I said anything even has an implication of forcing people to have babies. My mother and I assume the other people I spoke of would find that repugnant.

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

Katie I promised myself I wouldn’t reply unless you quoted me, but this was (I think???) directed at me.

Pro-life sounds good.

It is not good.

Therefore we call it what it is, forced-birth. That is what it is. Denying abortions means forcing a birth.

This is another point where Words Mean Things, and I refuse to say something that sound good when it drives people into poverty, along with all the other horrible consequences of a denied abortion.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

And really forced birthers okay at least that is not even really like anything I said I have no desire to have children my mom couldn’t care less.

Forced birth is the description the left uses to describe the same position the right describes as pro-life: that a woman should not terminate her pregnancy (which they usually hand wave away the “sometimes there are exceptions” point), and, whether through legal, physical, or psychological force, should be made to give birth.

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Okay to be clear I already accepted that I was clearly ignorant and misinformed in a lot of cases so I don’t understand why you would just say I’m lying. I have no reason to lie about that specific inane tiny thing that has almost nothing to do with the conversation. Maybe this is not typical I have no idea but yes it was my high school and college life. We were very very open about sex. Yes I did know the circumstances of how most of my friends all through high school and college lost their virginity I don’t understand why that is so unbelievable. I also think their actions were perfectly reasonable I did the exact same thing more than once.

I’m not stating that why all or most or even a significant percentage of abortions happen from those events because I have no idea of the statistics involved. But yes I do know many people who definitely were very careless early on in their sexual experience. If you think that’s a lie, do you. I was just trying to use it as an example to explain why I believe what I was told.

And like I said I have literally only known 2 pregnant women well in my whole life. I’ve known a third woman somewhat so I honestly do not know the effects of pregnancy on a person that is also just true and if you don’t want to believe that that is also fine. I have always been scared of the responsibility of another life so I actually actively avoided reading articles and information having to do with pregnancy I was going to say I just wasn’t interested but now that I think on it I definitely purposefully avoided articles in Cosmo and other inane magazines like that when stuff like that. If you’re going to tell me I’m ignorant or wrong or even messed up in the specific ways for believing some of these things that I have come to understand but if you want to call me a liar you’re just wrong I’m sorry but you are you can believe it all you want it has no effect on me but I’m not lying and I don’t understand why you would think I am if I was lying how could I get information that you make me less ignorant about this?

What really shocked me here is that people have seen me commenting here for literally I think 4 years and I’ve said tons of ignorant things but no one is doubting that I’m truly asking and good face and the truly want to know but now people are obviously not believing that and thinking I’m literally lying and trolling and stuff. Why? Why would I do that after 4 years of really enjoying the community here and never doing that before like what motivation could I possibly have?

Hippodameia
Hippodameia
2 years ago

No, it’s exactly what you’re here promoting and demanding that we find admirable. You’re just trying to dress it up as something more palatable.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

I find the “Oh, it’s a sin, but that doesn’t mean it’s like, super bad or something!” thing to be such a cop-out when people get called out on being prejudiced against other people’s personal choices that are none of the person’s damn business.

“Oh, being gay is a sin, but, you know, so is lying.”
“Oh, abortion is a sin, but so is working on the sabbath.”

You know why? Because I never see anyone go “Oh, murder is a sin, but so is swearing, so, really, murder is no big deal! Everyone sins, after all!” If the category of something being a ‘sin’ is meaningless, then there’s no point in bringing it up in the first place. And if there’s a sliding scale of badness of ‘sins’, then it’s a weasel phrase that’s used to avoid consequences and have plausible deniability of putting the sin on the low end of the badness scale.

It’s basically the equivalent of “Oh, I was just being ironically racist/sexist/bigoted!”. Around people who are genuinely racist/sexist/bigoted, the irony is suddenly dropped (and the ‘sin’ is one of those bad ‘burn in hell for eternity’ ones), and around people who are progressive and potential consequences for being bigoted loom, it’s suddenly ‘don’t get so worked up, I was just being ironic, I don’t really think that!” (‘oh, no, I don’t think that people should be punished for the ‘sin’, there are plenty of sins that I do too!”)

Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
Rhuu - apparently an illiterati
2 years ago

I swear if I hear “hate the sin, not the sinner” ONE MORE TIME…..

Katiekitten420
Katiekitten420
2 years ago

Thank you Kupo I honestly didn’t know what that I meant I thought forced birthing referred to the quiverfull type of people. What you just told me about is repugnant and I think most people would find it so including my mother. Yes she thinks abortion is definitely not ideal but she also wouldn’t want a woman to suffer through something that she truly didn’t want that would result in a baby that she resented. The woman has three degrees one of which is a PhD she’s not stupid. And like I said she’s completely aware that making any more restriction we just put more life in danger why is that part not important when the two words pro-life(and the way she describes it as she is pro-choice politically but pro-life personally just by the way) are so intensely important but her actual wants for women to not die or be hurt are completely irrelevant or at least that’s how it seems I’m really not trying to be snarky or obnoxious.

Okay I’ve decided what I’m going to do now is reread everything people have said and some of the links here and things I found myself and when I get home I will write something coherent and hopefully reasonable. And no I don’t want anyone to agree with me that as someone said abortion is bad accepting very specific cases. Because I’m not claiming that. Even from the beginning I specifically said I was not sure. Now about 100 posts ago give or take 10 I definitely stated I definitively believe that there is nothing immoral about abortion. I’m honestly appreciative and glad about the things that I have learned from people but I do feel like because this topic is so incredibly vital especially right now with our travesty of a government people occasionally have knee- jerk responses or it is completely possible I misunderstood certain cases which is why while I’m working I’m going to go back over every comment now that I’m not emotional or agitated and can take things in easily. As I’ve said before I ask questions here because I think the people here are intelligent and informed so if I believe that then now that I’m in a rational mood I think it’s a good idea 2 go back and read everything again because I feel like this is escalated to a point it shouldn’t.

This is not what I intended at all and I’m honestly a bit confused as to how it got this ugly. I apologize for the part I had in that because it’s not what I wanted at all I wanted information but I’m not rational sometimes I guess that was not a day I should have brought that up. I hope there won’t be no lingering animosity in the future.