Incels lose it (even more so than usual) after woman jokes about the “aborted girlfriend” meme

Katiekitten420

I don’t get why the two words pro life in of them selves are worth more than the actions people take

To reiterate what Kupo said, taking a label that signals affiliation with a violently patriarchal political position is an action. We don’t have to trust your pals’ reasons for taking that action just because you, in your admitted ignorance, believe their reasons benign.

I also don’t understand why not being Pro choice personally adamantly in public means you want there to be restrictions

How many people have to tell you that effects count infinitely more than intentions before it actually gets through to you?!?

They think it is personal not social or political

They engage in social activism on a political issue, but consider it personal. Well, howdy there, massive contradiction. How are you today?

@ Katiekitten

I feel for you I really do; it’s awful when we have to accept that people we love are flawed. But perhaps consider this:

People here have explained how even the most subtle *seemingly* non judgmental moral pressure can have an insidious social effect. Like even ‘necessary evil’ implies that it is still an evil.

Now consider your own position. You’re a really bright women. Intellectually you know access to abortion is a good and necessary thing. But deep down are you still finding yourself thinking that it is somehow ‘wrong’?

What does that matter, you may think. You’d only apply that standard to yourself not others. But here we are, where you have, and I’m sure completely unintentionally, introduced that same subtle pressure as mentioned above; and so the cycle continues.

Now the people here are perhaps more resistant to such pressures, but a lot of the people you encounter may not be. You’ve mentioned you’re popular, so people will be influenced by you and follow your cues. And it becomes an ever expanding web.

Anyway, just some thoughts; everyone else has put it better anyway.

WWTH, when you put it bare like that, I can’t disagree. As you say if circumstances were different then maybe that point of view would not be problematic necessarily. Like it would be in some cases and maybe it wouldn’t be in some other cases. But with the travesty of our current administration and the new Supreme Court pick coming up you are just completely right. In this specific instance(and other ones that I’ll elaborate on when I get home)i was completely mistaken partially because I did not add the variable of us being in The Darkest Timeline right now period and partially because of things I was just ignorant about.

I believe like you seemed to imply maybe if abortion was absolutely guaranteed to be legal and government subsidized and insurance covering it and no waiting periods and all that dumb shit they do to keep people from getting abortion my mother’s and her friends opinions would not be hurtful because as I said they do believe it is personal. Not brought up to people you aren’t close to.

So in the hypothetical situation I just made up then it wouldn’t really be hurtful right?(if not right, please tell me) They would just be beliefs. I And I honestly don’t know what the Catholic Doctrine properly is about different sins but my mother believes that pretty much yes sins are equally sinful. Like yes murder and swearing are equal they’re both sins, but morally speaking murder is worse than swearing because you are killing a person it’s not worse because it’s a worse sin, does that make sense?

And I honestly don’t get why if you are of the Catholic faith(which I no longer am) why loving a sinner but not loving their sins is a Bad Thing unless you’re just objecting to the cliche? Jesus said that’s what you should do, and most people I know agree even if they aren’t not religious at all and don’t believe Jesus had any divine connection to anything he was still pretty good guy and a incredible philosopher and had the right idea about a lot of things.

Also, where the hell in the Bible does it even say that abortion is a sin? Because I’m pretty damn sure it’s nowhere. See: page 2. https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/07/17/incels-lose-it-even-more-so-than-usual-after-woman-jokes-about-the-aborted-girlfriend-meme/comment-page-2/#comment-2145792

You may be right Catalpa I am literally not sure. I honestly do not know if the Bible States explicitly that abortion is a sin. I also want to be clear that even if it is I could care less that’s why I left the Catholic Church well among multiple reasons. But people who are Catholic bring up when things are sins I think(I can ask my mom when she wakes up before I go to bed)so they will be aware they sinned and can repent if they so desire? I could be wrong there too and I think there’s more to it but I think that’s a part of it. And yes they’re equal but they’re still sins in God’s eyes to my mother but if you’re sorry and want forgiveness God will forgive you.

I don’t follow these standards anymore I haven’t since I was literally a freshman in high school no the year before that. But that’s what they believe and I don’t see how that’s harmful as long as they’re not proselytizing. It’s not like my mom’s going to walk up to random people or even acquaintances and tell them that they are sinning that would be absurd. I assume she does it can people she’s really close with because she’s religious personally and wants them to be forgiven. Like I said I’m asking and making speculation from my mother’s actions and words. I’m not personally Catholic and I stopped when I was literally 13 so it’s hard for me to fully understand the mindset I’m about to get on the subway home so now is when I’m going to start reading from the beginning. It’ll give me something to do on this long-ass subway ride.

Again I was very agitated previously and emotional because I was a little bit unwell. I think if I read everything now when I’m more stable and rational maybe I will understand better because I feel like I’m missing something vital. Like it is within my reach but so far I’ve completely missed it. That’s exactly how I feel right now. Cuz before people have given me excellent advice here on many thing family my polyamorous relationship(which by the way everyone who gave me advice about that thank you very much it was good advice and things are working lovely.)

So obviously everyone’s agreeing I must be wrong or at least mostly wrong so I’ve grasped some parts but there’s an important piece like a concept or something that I’m missing and I’m hoping going back over everything while I’m rational and calm will let me figure it out. I hope everyone’s having a lovely weekend so far and I honestly appreciate the persistence of the people who has been trying to fix my ignorance on this topic. I am sorry for my animosity the other day I was honestly somewhat unstable I get like that. So I apologize again

To give a personal anecdote of ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ – so i have not come out to my Very Religious Sibling when this conversation happens. They are Catholic. I mean, we’re all Catholic but most in my family are lapsed. But not this sibling!

So I’m talking about how Orson Scott Card is a hypocritical asshole who deserves to see his films tank, because you don’t get to be all ‘homosexuality is a sin!’ And then be upset at a planned boycott of your movie because of that.

You have free speech, and so do I, Orson Scott Card. My money will speak, and it says ‘fuck you, maybe you should read this fucking book called SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD. Where we learn to see the humanity in everyone, to find common ground so we understand that even if something is truly alien to us, they still have value.’

(I guess i missed the ‘no homo lol’ in an appendice, or something.)

So we are having this discussion, and they ask if he’s reeeeeally homophobic, or just against gay marriage. Then they use this phrase. And let me tell you how it felt: enraging.

This was years ago, and it still hurts. Our relationship has never recovered, because anything i send going “hey, here are reasons why i was so angry about this, and it took me years to then come out to you” they tell me feels like i’m attacking them.

(This was at their invitation to me to explain why i was still angry. It didn’t last long, because what was the fucking point?)

So fuck it. I can’t improve that relationship, and it makes me feel like i don’t even want to visit my family. I used to call and talk to this sibling for hours every week, and now i haven’t phoned them in years.

I wonder if they’ve noticed? I wonder if they understand what a betrayal (paraphrasing the stupid weasle words into what they are actually saying) –

“i think what you’re telling me about yourself is something that you should feel ashamed of, and beg some man in a dark box for forgiveness from an imaginary dude in the clouds i value more than you.”

Or

“if i didn’t know you personally, i would think how you are going to hell for this thing that you can’t change. I do about people i don’t know personally! And people in my community who don’t have our personal connection think it about you.”

Is.

Also fuck ‘this is just a test god has given you! If you never form a non-hetero relationship, you’re totally fine! Sorry god apparently decided to make you want that relationship with someone that he then denied you, hey look at my mixed fiber outfit lol lol we have fun.’

As soon as something is labelled a sin and then enforced by a community as such, it makes people feel ashamed of things that they really don’t need to be ashamed of.

I don’t need fucking forgiveness for being alive. If god made all of us in his image, i guess he’s a little bit queer because sure as shit people are.

I think the ‘important piece’ you might be missing is this – People don’t need forgiveness for getting other life saving surgery, so why do they need it for abortion? (To pull it back on topic here.)

They don’t. They don’t need forgiveness from anyone about this choice they made, for themselves. For their family, if they have one.

They don’t need the shame attached to this, because they haven’t done anything wrong.

Something can be enforced through religion, as these views are, and have more or less impact depending on how large a presence the church is in a community.

Ireland, for instance, is seeing a shift away from the Catholic church being a powerful arbiter of morality.

The evangelicals in the states are gaining power in this, our darkest timeline.

Good on your mom for writing to the Vatican. Their attitude towards contraception needs to change to help the world.

I don’t know if she can make the final step to understand why considering this a sin is bad. I hope you can, because that might help more in the long run.

Dammit, i need to stop writing out such long ass screeds. This is getting ridiculous.

Personal story time… Done! Phewph.

@KatieKitten

None of us thinks that you are stupid, or at least I don’t and I don’t think anyone else does either. However, social pressure, social brainwashing in the form of social pressure and gaslighting is insidious and deep. We’ve all had more than our share and we’ve all had to dig those ugly things out.

For example that whole dogwhistle “I don’t see color” thing. It is bullshit because anyone born and bred in the US has been trained to see color and nothing but color and the tiny micro-judgments and assumptions that get made are often invisible to the people making them.

Someone once said that sexuality and all of its corollary activities is the only physical thing that can be socially controlled without killing the person – and thus sex became a sin. (I of course thought about all of the guilt people get about eating and weight but we will leave this partial example aside for a moment except to note that women get the disproportional load on this one too.) You don’t breathe; you die. You don’t drink water; you die. You don’t eat; you die. But if you don’t have sex, you don’t die. So sex can be easily used as a pressure point to socially control people. And whose sexuality is most controlled? Women. We are responsible for not only our own sexuality and all of its consequences, but for the sexuality of the people we are sexual with – especially if they are men. I find that lesbians are still mostly invisible in this culture and that is a whole other area of discussion but women tend to bear the disproportionate burden of these things, from date rape to pregnancy and everything in between. And many things outside of that arbitrary range.

One of the places this is most obvious and most insidious is women’s control of their own reproduction on every front. KatieKitten, you aren’t the only one who was trained in internalized misogyny – we all were. This is insidious and invisible. The idea, that abortion is a “sin” except in very narrow circumstances and that women are to be at the very least socially pressured and judged? This is a very harmful and insidious idea. Women don’t have reproductive choice, freedom or safety in this area or any other.

Worse, because of internalized misogyny and how it operates in groups or culture, anyone of us cis or trans can be pulled out of the group, castigated, pilloried, judged and left for dead. And the rest of us often feel so unsafe and so slimed by the misogyny that we’ve all grown up with that we essentially do the “not like the other girls” thing and let the public shaming begin. The kind of thinking you are putting forth? This is that kind of thinking – and it isn’t your fault. We all got and continuously get a bellyful of it everyday. We are asking you to think about this. And it isn’t easy. I’m trying to point out other areas of reproductive injustice and not having much luck because of the this.

Example, look at Monica Lewinsky. Who took her side during that? Even the big name second wave feminists were lining up to comfort and support the president. She was 22 and we all heard those tapes, she talked about the leader of the free world and their relationship like he was a frat boy who didn’t call often enough. She didn’t see the reality of her situation because she was so young and because of the power differential. The jury is now in, her life was ruined because of an indiscretion when she was twenty-two. Worse, I don’t think it was only the sex that did Monica in, but that she wasn’t thin enough to make the grade as bombshell. And so society destroyed her utterly. Is this the kind of world any of us can live in?

@Catalpa
Here is one more link for you. Not only is the article I linked good, but several others are, if you are still reading. Her model of what happened in Australia when corruption, money and abuse were taken out of the system is great as well. (Adoption by the Numbers)

http://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/birthmother-gaslighting-manipulation-by-the-adoption-industry/

@Cyborgette – Was it you several weeks back?

Okay the reason I haven’t posted anything yet is because I wanted to speak to my mother honestly beforehand because I’m feeling kind of resentful in a way. Since some of this is opinion and some is factual I can’t really get angry for her stating her opinions to me even if they’re problematic but I resent that she was perfectly aware how ignorant I was about actual pregnancy like what being pregnant is like. She could have informed me but for some reason chose not to. She said that firstly I insisted I would never have kids since I was in high school which to be fair is true she didn’t see why it was necessary she said if I seemed like changing my mind she would have told me before. That seems plausible to me I guess but I don’t know I still feel sort of misled by her. Also I decided to write my dropper post down on paper first because like I said I’m not comfortable with computers and stuff and I really want this to be coherent and sensible if not concise because I’m not capable of that LOL.

Thank you very much for that story Rhuu! That was a very good example of why people don’t like that phrase like I said I can be overly naive and immature and I feel that if you use that phrase you shouldn’t be using it to be full of s*** and essentially facetious. But it seems like honestly that’s how the great majority of people use it completely unlike Christ himself meant it he talked about but he honestly in the case of Mary Magdalene and many other times believe you should love the sinner but it seems most people say it in a completely different way that Jesus didn’t mean it all. As I previously said I honestly don’t even believe in the concept of sin anymore and haven’t since I was a young teenager. But if someone does believe in it then they should do like Jesus did or I feel like they’re honestly just being a straight-up hypocrite.

To be fair to my mom when I told her I was bisexual she really didn’t care I I think my mom is in a weird place mentally right now. She was raised very Catholic it’s interesting that you mention Ireland because my mother was conceived there but born here in the US. Both of her parents lived there and immigrated here. So as you say especially since we’re talking like over 50 years ago my mom is almost 70 the Catholic church had a ridiculous amount of power there as the Arbiter of morality and I guess she was very strongly influenced by it when she was young. Because she seems to be often conflicted in the last say decade or so between what the Catholic Church says and some opinions she holds. I would say the LGBT part is the biggest her best friend is flamboyantly fabulously gay. So like I said if anyone is interested I have come to a lot of conclusions with everyone’s help and input and information and I will make a conclusive post when I get home. Hope everyone had a good weekend the weather was miserable in NYC though. Hugs to all.

I guess I’ll just have to see past the mixed fibre outfits they wear while working on the Sabbath to the person within, right? :/

Yeah, but that’s okay because you can feel superior to them while looking past their sins and loving them anyway, even though they’re degenerates. 😉

AuntieMameRedux – may I take it as established that my husband and I are not, in fact, genocidal monsters for having adopted two five year old Black boys from foster care in Oakland, California? Because I would like to know, if that is the case.

Also, KatieKitten – you are getting some astonishingly good advice here. I encourage you to note it down, so years from now you can look back and think, ‘what a lot of good advice I got back then! Certainly came in handy.’

Echoing what Kupo said. This is all a lot to take in, and it is understandable that it will probably take a while.

Hope you’re having a good day.

My mum had a baby a few years before me but was denied a cesarian, she was drugged up on pethadine and the baby died a few hours after birth. Mum was not allowed to see or hold the baby, and she was still in hospital when she was buried. My father blamed her for it saying she was stupid and didn’t know how to push. Mum has terrible problems now with a bladder prolapse from this botched delivery and has to wear a diaper.