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Reddit’s Trump fans praise Putin, mock talk of Trump treason — then attack Hillary for colluding with Russia?

It’s always “Lock Her Up” time in Reddit’s The_Donald

By David Futrelle

Never doubt the ability of Reddit’s The_Donald — the site’s biggest hangout for meme-loving, conspiracy pushing Trump stans  — to turn the worst debacles into wins (in their minds at least) for our illegitimate president.

But today was something special, even by their standards. On a day that even some GOP Senators came close to calling Trump’s shameless behavior in Helsinki treasonous, The_Donald’s regulars praised Putin even more effusively than their boy Trump for what they saw as the rousing success of the faux summit.

And then they turned around and accused Hillary Clinton of collusion with Russia.

Here’s the top post in the subreddit at the moment, inspired by an evidence-free accusation from Putin during the joint press conference today.

THIS FUCKING TIMELINE: PUTIN ACCUSES HILARY CLINTON OF ACCEPTING $400 MILLION IN ILLEGAL RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS DURING THE NEWS CONFERENCE!!!CROOKED HILLARY (i.redd.it) submitted 9 hours ago by MamemooKEK 1133 comments

The_Donald’s regulars expressed their faux outrage:

0fficerNastyAdmonished Deplorable 53 points 9 hours ago  Imagine my shock. Hillary colluded with Russia.

N9neRhymesAMERICA FIRST 21 points 9 hours ago  Hillary Comrade Clinton

CmonPeopleGetRealNo Steppy 12 points 6 hours ago  Holy shit, did Trump just bait all of the World and US fake news into calling his meeting with treasonous for not trusting our Intel agencies over Putin only to have them have to immediately follow up the story with reports of actual treason committed by the intel agencies in laundering money for Crooked?

Meanwhile, some suggested literally colluding with Russia to get Hillary sent to Russia for a show trial:

bitchalotCA 96 points 9 hours ago  If the Russians ask to extradite her to stand trial, do we hand her over?

Greyreign 319 points 9 hours ago  LOCK HER UP (in Siberia)

Others, in the same thread, praised the great collusion cooperation between Trump and Putin.

jomamasophatCA 66 points 9 hours ago  These are Men. They are done fucking around with the Clinton cancer on the globe. They are well aware of communism's ills, and not playing that game either. Fuck globalism, fuck the deep state, fuck the media trying to start fires around the globe faster than Trump can put them out. I love seeing these two bad-ass motherfuckers getting along. Real recognizes real.  permalinkembedunsavereportgive goldreply  [–]River_26 7 points 8 hours ago  Agreed. Been waiting for a comment like this.  permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive goldreply  [–]Automatiic 2 points an hour ago  " I love seeing these two bad-ass motherfuckers getting along. Real recognizes real. "

bingbong876 31 points 9 hours ago  I've ALWAYS said this. Why are the democrats always trying to piss them off and blame them for everything. Bush Jr was on good terms with them and Reagan ended the cold war. If we were allies with Russia, NO ONE could fuck with us. We could have fair trade with them and get cheap oil (supplemented by our own oil to ensure that Russia can't hold energy over our heads) and they can get REAL cars lol. A Russia - Japan - South (and maybe North) Korea alliance would be amazing. We could tell europe to go fuck themselves and watch them implode from the imported "women and children" "refugees"

Nice racist kicker there, dude.

Someone called Drooperdoo added:

Trump and Putin nailed it. They called the Deep State's bluff, and the Deep State is panicking. These delusional Narcissists actually want the President to participate in a narrative designed to de-legitimize his own election. And they were willing to alienate Russia and risk WWIII to pressure Trump to do it.  Bravo, President Trump! You advanced the cause of world peace, while, at the same time, defending the real Constitutional Government against the fake ("Council on Foreign Relations") Shadow Government.

Elsewhere in the subreddit, The_Donald’s regulars mocked those who’ve accused Trump of treason today:

reeeason!😭 SALTY TEARS

Irony isn’t just dead; it’s been run over by a steamroller.

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PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
3 years ago

Fucking assholes. Stupid, illogical assholes.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Reagan ended the cold war?

I guess that chap wasn’t born yet when the Soviet Union collapsed? Because that was not during the Reagan administration.

It’s also just such an incredibly simplistic view to take. There are a lot of different reasons the USSR collapsed.

I know the point of the post is more the ridiculousness of alt righters wanting to sacrifice their own rights and security to own the libs, but I just can never get over how terrible at history reactionaries always are.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
3 years ago

WWTH

Of course they’re bad at history, even if they can spout the oft used doomed to repeat it quote.

But did anyone else feel like Billbong876 was basically trying to name the next axis alliance with us on the bad side?

Bonus question. When exactly did the US morph into the evil empire? Trump is a late stage symptom of tyranny. How many early ones did we miss?

Miss Cobalt
Miss Cobalt
3 years ago

It never ceases to amaze me how talented some guys are at pulling stuff out their asses

William Hooper
William Hooper
3 years ago

Truly,Miss Cobalt !!
What’s Equally striking to me is that the Alt-right,assorted Wing Nuts,and Developmentally Disabled,Paranoid Others are so lacking in Creativity….Same Tired,Antique Slogans : “Lock Her Up !” is as Quaintly Obsolete as New World Order,Soros !!,or R.F.I.D. chips.
Poor Losers Desperately Need a New Litany !!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Look, 17 US intelligence services say Russia did rig the US election; but Putin says they didn’t. And as the person who ordered the rigging of the US election, he’s in the best position to know.

solecism
solecism
3 years ago

@AuntieMameRedux:

Bonus question. When exactly did the US morph into the evil empire? Trump is a late stage symptom of tyranny. How many early ones did we miss?

I guess it depends on your perspective. Let’s talk Manifest Destiny, continent-wide genocide, enslavement of millions of people for 250+ years–that all sounds pretty evil empire to me. Not to mention theft of Hawaii from its people.

Oh, outside our own borders (once they were established)? How about our long history of destabilizing democratic governments and supporting strongmen through the Americas? All of these people fleeing their homes in Central America for a few generations now are our covert foreign policy chickens coming home to roost. A lot of that was justified as cold war politics, but often was simply self-interested economic exploitation and extraction of other regions. Throw in NAFTA and other neoliberal policies and the resulting massive displacement of subsistence farmers in Mexico who couldn’t support themselves anymore, well. And of course, our actions justified by 9-11 and the ongoing detention of people for more than a decade now…the list goes on.

When everyone identifies us as the sole surviving superpower, how do we not actually entrench ourselves further in corruption, exploitation, and whatever it takes to hold on to our power and privilege?

Perhaps I am overly pessimistic. But having finally gotten a glimpse of our shadowed history that isn’t taught in our schools, I can’t forget that our national ideals are rooted in blood and violence.

@WilliamHooper:

Could we just not with the ableism, please?

Christopher Green
Christopher Green
3 years ago

Conflicted.
I loathe Trump, and do believe he is financially compromised by Russian operators… I consider Putin a dead-eyed psychopath, but also a skilled national leader.
That said, I am glad to see us step away from our intensely confrontational behavior over the last decade.
Forget the morality of anything; Russia was NEVER going to allow us to overthrow Assad or “liberate” Crimea, because those are THE ONLY major naval bases they have on the Mediterranean and the Black Sea.
Throw in our positioning of ‘first strike’ systems on their border, and we are lucky this wargaming hasn’t started a larger war with the other major nuclear power in the world.

William Hooper
William Hooper
3 years ago

@solecism:
Sorry,but I can’t think of these Reddit Morons more charitably than as Severely Developmentally Disabled_However,I suppose we could replace “Disabled” with Lacking.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@William Hooper

However,I suppose we could replace “Disabled” with Lacking.

It isn’t a case of “maybe”. Don’t be an asshole.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Christopher Green

That said, I am glad to see us step away from our intensely confrontational behavior over the last decade.

Er, you mean you’re happy that the intensely confrontational behavior is directed at allies and trade partners instead?

Kevin
Kevin
3 years ago

They just can’t handle the cognitive dissonance from realizing the Orange Oaf is being operated like a glove puppet by Vladimir Putin’s hand up his a**e.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

@AuntieMamRedux : Obama was already a pretty big giveaway. Not that he was an evil dictator, but his foreign policy leaned even more heavily into autoritharian crap than Bush, even tho he was supposedly democrat.

When supposedly left wing leaders continue and intensify the work of the would-be dictators, then it’s time to panic.

Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
3 years ago

I’m afraid.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
3 years ago

Yeah, I’d say that the taking of Hawaii was probably the first truly major step towards the U.S. becoming an evil empire. There was no anti-communism angle yet. There was no “we’re protecting it from the OTHER empires” bullshit that got a massive workout in the Spanish-American war that immediately followed. It was just a straight-up “this functional, internationally-beloved and well-connected nation isn’t having its government completely run to the whims of U.S.-based corporate interests, so fuck ’em.” And when Grover Cleveland got in for his second (non-consecutive) term of office, he was appalled and tried to get this fixed. The corporate-owned Congress then stalled him the hell out for four years until they could get one of Their Guys back in the Oval Office, and Hawaii was now part of the U.S. permanently. Theodore Roosevelt’s unexpected Presidency may have tried to shift away from the “evil” part, but it ramped up the “imperial” part even further. So things then got nastier and nastier with things like the 30-year occupation of Haiti designed to fuck it over as powerfully as possible, or the way that American oil interests gleefully took over from the oil interests of the fading British Empire following World War II (who had done much to render so much of the world into a dysfunctional mess as a matter of official operating procedure), and we end up inheriting the legacy of the worst crimes of European empires.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/984887612fe3ed21795cc679c785c553

When I saw this foto, my first reaction was… not disgust, tho it is disgusting… not fear, tho it is frightening… not rage, tho it is enraging…. No, my instantaneous reaction was, “I’ve seen this before, a long time ago when I was researching a history question….

comment image?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=3c476c52d914b2496d839d737d441210

(fyi, that’s Neville Chamberlain “appeasing” Adolf Hitler)

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

hmmm… well, that doesn’t appear to be working at all!?!?!

John Fleming
John Fleming
3 years ago

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

– Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Hold my beer!

– /r/The_Donald

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

You need to start the links with an http, without the s, because wordpress is a bit archaic. You also need a url that ends with an image file extension, like .jpeg, for it to recognise it correctly. Both your image links are unsuitable, unfortunately.

I wonder if this place supports img tags, though…

[img]https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/984887612fe3ed21795cc679c785c553][/img]

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

Hooray, my post got eaten. I wonder if it is linked to the editting magic this place has nowadays, becasue my eaten posts usually reappear after the edit window has expired.

Anyway, no. The mamoth hates your images. No inlining for you.

solecism
solecism
3 years ago

@ChimericMind:

Yeah, I forgot to include Haiti. Thanks for bringing that up.

Not just our occupation but how we orchestrated the giant multimillion dollar fine/compensation Haiti had to pay to France for loss of property when those uppity people had the nerve to free themselves. Haiti’s desperate poverty as a free nation is a direct result of the USA leading the other countries to refuse to recognize its sovereignty unless France was reimbursed. Worse than anything the IMF has ever leveraged on a country.

Miss Cobalt
Miss Cobalt
3 years ago

Christopher Green

“I consider Putin a dead eyed psychopath and also a skilled national leader.”

Scary how those 2 things dovetail

Kereea
Kereea
3 years ago

The Hillary story is that Putin has accused a former Russian (now UK citizen) dissident of paying her campaign and claims Trump might look into it if Putin lets him look into the 12 hackers. Despite the guy being in the UK and not under Trump’s control at all.

So…it’s not Russian money. Its ex-Russian UK money. If it even existed.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

This breakdown in cognitive dissonance is interesting to watch unfold. On some level, they realize that all they have to do is toss out “whataboutisms” in feeble attempts to discredit or have their ideological opponents wringing their hands about hypocrisy. It doesn’t matter if they say “We should be friends with Russia” in one statement and “Hillary was with Russia the whole time!” in the next because anonymous users can belch any position out at any time and there’s no accounting for them. This is the 4chan/Reddit model and just yesterday, I witnessed it in meatspace.

I’ve mentioned my coworker before (we’ll call him Dan). Now, Dan is three years younger than me (I’m 33) and grew up on the internet pretty much as I have, but he’s more into online gaming than me and clearly stews in those environs. He’s always been one of those “soft” anti-SJWs (plays concern troll about calling out slurs, made a big deal about that “Count Dankula” guy, thinks Anita Sarkeesian was terrible), but every time I push back, he always responds with an ironic over-the-top answer, like “Hillary Clinton clearly eats babies!”. It’s never something real. The closest I get to real is his obvious hatred for Islam (he was born in Iran). I can appreciate his disdain for the current regime, but I keep pointing out that not every Muslim is a fundamentalist, nor does every Muslim follow every verse of the Qur’an. And every time I affirm my commitment to humanitarianism in light of refugees, his response is always “You should try living in Iran for a few months. Then you’ll see how cruel humanity can be.” As if hardship or cruelty will burn the humanity out of me or something.

“Canada can’t save the world!” he says. “We should limit immigration.” Again, I have no idea if he really means that or if he’s just trying to get a rise out of me. I suspect he really believes that, given his hostility to Islam, but he never actually gives me a straight up “this is what I believe” answer.

Recently though, our conversations have been veering into conspiracy theory territory. He’s brought up Seth Rich on multiple occasions, justifying the conspiracy with “What, you think she’s not capable of that? Her email said ‘Make an example of him!'” And every time, I have to defend Hillary Clinton from repeatedly-debunked accusations. Then he says “Why do you like Hillary Clinton so much?” And I say “That’s the thing, I’m not a big fan of hers! She has really problematic ties to Wall Street and her role in the coup in Honduras was indefensible! There’s legitimate stuff to criticize Hillary Clinton on, why does it always have to be conspiracy nonsense?!”

…”Hillary Clinton eats babies!”

But the one that really had me nervous was he dropped in that white people in South Africa are being killed by a racist government. This one I couldn’t let pass, because that’s Lauren Southern-level conspiracy crapola there. I pointed out that these farm attacks are happening all over the country, the victims are black and white and that the Afrikaner congress agrees with the ANC that there’s no element of racism to these. Again, his justification was something half-remembered about some guy saying “Kill whites” somewhere. I asked if it was Jacob Zuma and he couldn’t say for sure, but some South African politician said “kill whites” or something.

A Google Search lead me to Jacob Zuma singing some anti-Apartheid song ten years ago.

In fairness to Dan, I think this is just something he heard while gaming or watching some Twitch stream somwhere and he didn’t know its source, but he really wants to believe that black people (or Muslims or Asians) are just as racist as white people, so everyone should stop talking about it. Personally, I think he’s so immersed in the post-irony internet that he just wants to say all the swears he wants without social consequence. Because he’s one of those “all politicians suck” kinda people who doesn’t vote.

I just wish I didn’t have to be in the cubicle next to him.

Sheila Crosby
3 years ago

I’ve been convinced for over a year that Putin had Trump by the balls one way or another. For the last month or so I’ve felt it had to be something worse than the pee-pee tape – something that would mean instant jail for Trump – simply because Trump seemed to eager to oblige Putin.

Looking at Trump’s happy face in Helsinki I’ve changed my mind. I think the most likely explanation is that he’s been bribed. I think Putin promised to make Trump the dictator of the USA so he can run it as a kleptocracy like Russia.

I hope I’m wrong.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

I personally doubt whether the Russians have any hold over Trump; I don’t think they need any. I think it’s much simpler than that.

Trump’s narcissism won’t allow him to think anything other than that he won the election entirely on his own. The thought that he might have needed assistance is anathema to him.

And all Putin had to do was massage Trump’s ego “Why would we need to rig the election big fella? A great guy like you had it in the bag anyway.”

Juniper
Juniper
3 years ago

The thing that bothers me about people who say “America’s always been evil,” and then bring up Native American genocide, slavery, Hawaii, etc., which are all definitely very evil things America did, but it seems like when people say, “America’s always been evil,” it’s used as an excuse to throw up their hands and not even try to make America any better. If we’ve been just totally evil during our entire history, then why would we expect that to change?

I hear “America’s always been evil” most from people who either don’t vote, or do protest votes for third parties, because the system has always been rigged, both major parties are equally bad, so voting really doesn’t matter anyway.

It actually reminds me of this Trump interview I saw where (I think it was Bill O’Riley) said “but Putin’s a killer,” and Trump said, “well, we’re killers too.” That’s a sentiment that I’ve also seen on the far left, that America is just as bad as Russia or China, and if we think we’re any better, we’re fooling ourselves.

I can see how believing that takes a certain weight off one’s shoulders.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

Test

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@katamount;

he never actually gives me a straight up “this is what I believe” answer.

For the right wing, especially the “Hillary eats babies” igno-right, it’s NOT “what I believe”, it’s THE TRUTH. And “what I believe” is what the truth is.

Analysis, research and evidence are irrelevant, because those are left-wing tools to create fake news. They get their truth from the dumpster, from Faux Nooz, and from their preachers, and they are fundamentally opposed to checking ANYTHING out.

Honestly, if there was one thing I could convince conservatives to change, it would be to stop their virulent hatred of LEARNING.

solecism
solecism
3 years ago

@Juniper:

The thing that bothers me about people who say “America’s always been evil,” and then bring up Native American genocide, slavery, Hawaii, etc., which are all definitely very evil things America did, but it seems like when people say, “America’s always been evil,” it’s used as an excuse to throw up their hands and not even try to make America any better. If we’ve been just totally evil during our entire history, then why would we expect that to change?

I can see why it feels this way to you, and I am sure plenty of people who point out our failings are coming from a position of fatalism and both-sides-are-equally-bad-ism. But not everyone.

Here’s the thing. White supremacy got Trump elected. White supremacy is the foundation of the United States. White supremacy rooted in violence and plunder of black and brown bodies. It is a dynamic that is alive and well today, and has always been there. Just that some of us are actually noticing it for the first time. We need to acknowledge the cost of our “freedoms.” We need to reckon with our ugly history and ugly present. Until we incorporate that reality into our understanding, our national mythbuilding and ideals are pretty fucking hollow (and always have been). Sure, we have done some good and great things. Not to dismiss that. But we can’t sweep the rest back into the shadows and focus only on the feel-good moments.

So when some people exclaim about how did it come to this? How did we lose our way? We’re not like this. Actually, we are. We always have been. Us white folks have had the privilege of blinders and benefiting from the violence without having to see it enacted. We can’t do better until we acknowledge the wrong we are doing and have done, even if only by being passive and ignorant beneficiaries of that violence and plunder. Otherwise, we’re just harking back to a fantasy past era much like yon conservatives with the halcyon 1950s.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

@Juniper

but it seems like when people say, “America’s always been evil,” it’s used as an excuse to throw up their hands and not even try to make America any better.

Nailed it. It’s apathy more than anything else. Weird Eddie has it right when it comes to the MAGA-hued fever swamps of Fox and Breitbart, but I’m worried that there’s a lot more Dans out there who are knowledgeable and tech-savvy, but are so jaded to the political system and so removed from the broader humanity that they will entertain ideas that leave them unchallenged and comfortable.

That’s part of why Jordan Peterson is so popular with that set: his “Antidote to Chaos” doesn’t require any long-term investment of time and doesn’t require fundamental change. On the contrary: opposing change without leaving the house is his ideal solution. We don’t offer comfortable solutions. We offer hard and often bitter truths that require fundamental and structural change of society, change that will take decades to accomplish.

Dan just wants to keep on gaming and say the “R” word without me pushing back. Sadly, that leaves him vulnerable to the allure of the fever swamps, which pander to his comfort.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ Alan Robertshaw:

Additionally, there’s the trump hotel Moscow project on the table, and I believe the dumpster is coddling Putin to try to make that deal happen. For the bigot-in-chief, it’s always

Number 1: Me
Number two: My money
and there is no number three

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago
DanHoan
DanHoan
3 years ago

I just saw yesterday on twitter that the QAnon twitter is now pushing a new narrative that Bill Browder (the man behind the Magninsky Act) stole money from Russia (which Russia framed him for) and then he used this money to finance Hillary’s presidential run.

Which, timeline wise makes literally no sense at all.

But this it the kind of shit these people believe.

Chris Oakley
Chris Oakley
3 years ago

Off topic, but the Mandalay Bay casino is suing 1000 victims of last October’s Las Vegas shooting:

Addicting Info: Las Vegas Casino Stoops To New Low

Who?
Who?
3 years ago

The problem is not that there was always evil thinks that America has done. I would have problems suscriping the sentence “America is evil” even now.

I can say from a German PoV the USA was a trusted friend, that was helpful that we trusted perhaps to much. This is gone or nearly gone now. America is a problem or even an enemy.

And it was always bad is not an excuse. We don’t live in a perfect world, the question should always be can some thinks chance for the better. And the answer should be yes.
Now in the USA we are going backwards. (Trump is trying to make the country a shitier place he is trying to make the whole world a worse place)
But even if it is hard to hear it now, there is a world after Trump and this is worth having hope for. Even if I will take a generation to repair everythink that gets broken now.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
3 years ago

bingbong876 blathered:

If we were allies with Russia, NO ONE could fuck with us.

Hmm…it seems like there’s something missing from that assessment.

Some country with a military that has almost twice as many soldiers than ours.

A country that’s the second-largest economy in the world.

A country with more than twice the population of the US and Russia combined.

…what was that country’s name again?

Oh well, I’m sure someone who freely chose to name themselves bingbong surely couldn’t have overlooked a screamingly obvious blindspot in their vision of a global hegemony of fuckheaded evil….

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

Well, ok… *POOF*

and my fotos appear!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

we have the dumpster shaking hands with Putin, and below, Neville Chamberlain shaking hands with Hitler….

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Katamount

Hillary Clinton eats babies

Its all a bit 4chan, isn’t it? Just being a bigotted authoritarian-supporting fuckhead ironically. No actual strongly held beliefs or principles beyond childish ‘fuck everyone else and the things they like’ nihilism.

Guy probably couldn’t argue in good faith if you paid him.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
3 years ago

@Gaebolga

You wouldn’t mean a country with plans to modernize the ancient Silk Road and develop major new sea lanes would you?

@Weird Eddie

And us fresh out of Churchills and Roosevelt’s and a population ready to unite and do its bit.

@solecism

Regarding our sins in the Americas, my son recently spent a year living in Bogata teaching English. He told me that the slang for us is El Norte, said with as much contempt as it sounds. He also said that we should ideally be united allies, same landmass, broad culture and history in common. I’m personally not sure they’d have us but still interesting.

For those who spoke of hope even in these dark times a huge thank you and right on. We need a coherent platform and effective and efficient resistance. I know other people in our historical position have struggled with the same thing but we have to try.

The fact that the actual planet is groaning beneath our demands doesn’t bode well for this war cycle and I fear that it will be more than a generation in repairs if we fuck up as badly as I fear we might.

That aside? Where should we start? I’d say the November elections but we need plans a and b for after the possible outcomes too. Because clearly we can’t just depend on our democracy any longer.

Oh and if anyone is up to inventing an entirely new economic system and a transition to it, that would be good too. Joking and serious here.

And I’ll leave you all with two more cliche (but good) quotations. Because of my grandfather, I know them all.

The only thing to fear is fear itself.

If you’re going through hell, keep going.

Those here who spoke of hope and determination are right. Thank you.

Miss Cobalt
Miss Cobalt
3 years ago

Auntie Mame Redux

See Richard Wolff on worker cooperatives

solecism
solecism
3 years ago

@AuntieMameRedux:

Oh and if anyone is up to inventing an entirely new economic system and a transition to it, that would be good too. Joking and serious here.

Right there with you on this. We are hampered by our collective lack of imagination. I’m all for hope and hard work toward a better future. But people need to be inspired by a vision of transformation, a model of how things can be fundamentally different. It feels like a bit of a chicken and egg problem.

Makes me think of Octavia Butler’s Earthseed religion in her Parable books. And in terms of alternative economics, I was really impressed with Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars trilogy.

AuntieMameRedux
AuntieMameRedux
3 years ago

@solecism

I love Octavia Butler! I started rereading the Parable books and laid them down but I’m picking them back up again.

I agree with you on the lack of imagination but I think that we’ve done/this has been done to us as a society. I talk to my son about this a lot. We’ve implicitly and explicitly told people that late capitalism is the pinnacle and that we can’t do any better. Even hoping for better is seen as the mark of an immature idealist who can’t or won’t accept reality. This among other things has robbed people of imagination and hope.

Absolutely tying research and development and science to capitalist goals has also limited people. And putting financial incentives and paying patents into the universities is forcing the direction of research in all fields. This didn’t used to be the case or at least not wholly the case.

But could we use some of the lessons of capitalism to efficiently and ethically manage and distribute resources? Could we give people security and other things to do other than work for survival or the next consumer desire? Could some of those manufacturing efficiencies and robots we keep hearing about help us in terms of a labor pool while we let our population stabilize in a natural way? Can we make choices about what and how much we manufacture while we try and heal the planet? It’s been frustrating me for years that these and so many other pressing questions aren’t even on the table. And anyone asking them is dismissed as an idiot who doesn’t understand the corrupt way the world really works. This. We’ve been forced to accept corruption as the only possibility. Humanity is far from perfect, I understand. I know desperation can bring the worst in people, but it also brings the best. For every historical conflagration there were and are always people who tried for better both famous and unsung.

I’ve also toyed with the ideas that we need things to replace war and religion as a controlling and corrupting force on a psychological and emotional level but how and what?

I have the Mars books on the shelves and read them decades ago. I will have another look. Thank you.

Citerior Motive
Citerior Motive
3 years ago

Trump’s behaviour is phenomenally disloyal and definitely grounds for impeachment and potential criminal charges, but according to you guys’ constitution to be guilty of treason he has to wage war against the United States. I’m unsure how broadly the courts construe that language, though. Would collusion with an unfriendly but not belligerent foreign state qualify?

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

Lock Trump up first, go through due process second. And if he objects, counter with “sauce for the gander”.

Juniper
Juniper
3 years ago

@solecism

Yes, white supremacy has always been a big terrible thing in America. I totally agree with that.

But I guess, from my POV, it looked like for a bit there we were getting better. I remember a time when Republicans tried to pander to Latino voters. The Bushes would show up somewhere and speak a few lines in Spanish and talk about how much they like guacamole.

And when Obama won, racism wasn’t over, but a guy named Barack Hussein Obama became president! Wow! I had hoped we’d have a black president in my lifetime, but I didn’t think it would happen that soon! I remember the sci-fi movie trope of black president = this is set in The Future! Where’s my flying car?

And I remember that after Obama was elected (and re-elected) the GOP did some soul searching and some of them said they need to do more to win over minority voters. They said they wouldn’t survive much longer being the Whites Only party, and maybe Marco Rubio was the future of the Republican party.

But somewhere along the way they decided that instead of being less racist and trying to bring POC over to their side, they would double down on the white supremacy. Instead of trying to win over black and Latino voters, now their strategy is to suppress their vote. (This kinda ties into the comment I made on the other thread about the Republican party getting increasingly anti-democratic and willing to cheat instead of getting votes fair and square.)

I just hope that all the work that people did during the last century to make this country *less* evil and more democratic isn’t going to be undone.

solecism
solecism
3 years ago

@AuntieMameRedux:

We’ve implicitly and explicitly told people that late capitalism is the pinnacle and that we can’t do any better. Even hoping for better is seen as the mark of an immature idealist who can’t or won’t accept reality.

I feel ya on this. There’s that Winston Churchill quote: “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” When I try to recall it on my own, I always get confused about whether the quote is referring to democracy or capitalism. And I think that’s at least partly because we’ve done a helluva a job conflating these 2 things.

My libertarian-identified ex likes to use that quote when arguing against alternatives to capitalism. That might also be a contributing factor too. Regardless, it’s annoying as fuck to talk about how exploitative our current societal structures are and have someone whip out a fatuous platitude like that quote to shut down even the beginning possibility of an exploration of alternatives.

Last time he used that quote, I pointed out that he himself had not actually researched the configurations of all known societies both current and historical to demonstrate that, indeed, what we have is the best of the worst. That he was talking out of his ass, and I was pretty sure that if we bothered to look, we could find at least one example of a more egalitarian, more just society that had existed for at least a little while. And thus, it is within our human capacity to achieve again. He actually conceded the point, and more importantly, probably won’t spout that particular quote at me any more.

It’s been frustrating me for years that these and so many other pressing questions aren’t even on the table. And anyone asking them is dismissed as an idiot who doesn’t understand the corrupt way the world really works. This. We’ve been forced to accept corruption as the only possibility.

Sing it. I agree 100%. How we frame our questions shapes our available options.

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

How we frame our questions shapes our available options.

This. When I’m feeling lousy I try to remind myself that everything we do, whether great or small, to push the Overton window in the direction of equal rights and away from fascism, is a tiny part of helping to keep the good stuff thinkable, conceivable, potentially realisable, and to keep the evil shit unthinkable or at least unacceptable.

Who?
Who?
3 years ago

First of, there was a German newspaperarticle, which talked about treason. They agred that it wasn’t tecnical treason because the USA and Rusia are not at war with each other. Not tecnically (so not for the law) is the most important fact. Betrayel of the USA, yes.

The hardcorecapitalismen of the USA is not the only form of democracy. Look at some of the European countrys. A socialist is a democrat in most cases.