By David Futrelle
There comes a time in every Jordan Peterson fanboy’s life when he starts to think about settling down with a high quality female for mating purposes.
And so one such fan recently turned to the Jordan Peterson subreddit to ask his fellow lobsters (yes, they call themselves that) to ask for some help with his mating math. At what age, he asked, should a man who is “progressing up the hierarchy ” allow himself “to be peeled off by a female” seeking marriage?
jtillery32 laid out his dilemma, noting first that
JP has often said women mate across and up [the] competence hierarchy. … Which is patently true. The problem that leaves me (and I’m sure a bunch of other lobsters vying for position) with is wondering when the appropriate time to allow yourself to be peeled off by a female.
Get out your calculators and lobster bibs, people, because things are going to get messy!
Essentially the question is this: if a man is progressing up the hierarchy (status, financial, getting into shape, etc), would it be in his and his future wife’s best interest to wait on settling down until he believed he was at his peak?
Because god forbid you marry some HB 7 you merely love and want to spend the rest of your life with when, if you had waited a few more years, you could have had yourself an 8 or 9 who was more interested in your money than your personality?
A good example of this problem is a 21 year old man who is handsome, articulate, athletic, in college, maybe works as a bartender and probably has pick of the women that attend the school or in some proximity, maybe from ages 18-25 VS the same man, 9 years later who is now in better shape, more handsome, more confident, more wise, financially “minted”, and has a much larger pool to choose from, maybe 21-35 year old women who are of higher quality (that sounds like a cut of beef) by nature of hypergamy.
Sounds a bit like that famous (if recently somewhat tarnished) “marshmallow test” where you offer a kid either one marshmallow right away or two if they’re willing to wait ten minutes. But with hot ladies instead of marshmallows. A whole pool of high quality hot lady marshmallows.
It would seem that if that 21 year old man was to marry someone at that age it would have been a grave mistake as he would have been able to have a higher quality partner had he waited 9 years.
Seriously, why settle for a One Marshmallow Stacey if you could wait a little and snag yourself a Two Marshmallow Stacey?
I would love an actual wise answer here and not some “well when you know she’s the right one when you just know” BS.
Fuck love, we’re all about Marshmallow Stacey Maximization here.
That sounds callous, but the reality is that you really can fall in love with many people and some people do multiple times in their lives, and could probably have successful marriages with more than “the one”.
Obviously this dude who rates women like cuts of beef has a great understanding of what makes for a successful marriage.
When should a man who is trying and succeeding to better himself in every way let himself be peeled off into marriage? And does preemptive peeling lead to resentment?
Dude, I suspect that with you EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING IN THE WORLD LEADS TO RESENTMENT. Waiting. Not waiting. EVERYTHING.
You see this a lot in professional athletes, and people who are aggressively climbing the hierarchy. The superstar dated and married the best girl (smartest, funniest, prettiest) at the high school, but now he’s the quarterback of an nfl team and has his pick of the best girls in the world. It’s a common theme among meteoric rises in men and I haven’t seen a good answer for it. Be loyal to the person who loved you before the status or keep aiming up to someone better?
And plenty of these “superstars” do in fact stay loyal to what you would see as sub-optimal partners. Because, you know, love?
I hate to tell you this, dude, but if this is really the way you think about relationships, you are NOT the great catch you think you are. You’ll make yourself miserable no matter who you marry — if you can find anyone gullible enough to marry you in the first place.
And the chances are good that nine years from now you won’t actually be “in better shape, more handsome, more confident, more wise” with “a much larger pool to choose from,” You will probably be earning more money. But you’ll also be nine years more bitter and resentful, and that’s not an attractive look for any man.
Don’t get married now. But don’t get married nine years from now either — at least not until you clear your head of this utterly toxic way of thinking.
Unfortunately, this being the Jordan Peterson subreddit, none of the commenters offered him the blunt advice he so desperately needs — though a few did warn him that by waiting too long for the “perfect woman” he might end up old and resentful and alone. (Might? Almost certainly will.)
He also got this less-than-optimal advice, from someone calling himself liberal_hr.
I agree that you should wait until your reach your maximum potential peak and then start looking for potential females.
There is just too much of a risk of you falling head over heels for a female and settling for less than you deserve.
Given that he literally deserves no one, I find this a little hard to believe.
And then there was NoelTrotsky, whose advice was somehow even worse:
It would be interesting to apply economic game theory to this problem. I’d bet that a young man’s best move would be to marry an older rich woman while young , take the help up the ladder, have kids, then leave at about 35 and marry young for a second round. Why not increase your odds with several marriages of significant lengths?
So, in other words he should act like a male version of every “Red Pill” dude’s caricature of a calculating, mercenary hypergamous woman who would drop any man she was with if in a second if she had a chance to “branch swing” to a higher-status man?
It’s almost as if the Red Pill notion of female hypergamy is less a reflection of how women actually behave in the real world than a projection of every Red Pill dude’s not-so-secret desire to trade up to a Victoria’s Secret model.
Jordan Peterson really brings out the worst in people, huh?
“I’d bet that a young man’s best move would be to marry an older rich woman while young , take the help up the ladder, have kids, then leave at about 35 and marry young for a second round. Why not increase your odds with several marriages of significant lengths?”
My advice would be not to do that. A rich woman, one who has resources of her own, might object to being thrown over after twelve or fifteen years of wedlock and might take (effectual) steps to make sure it doesn’t happen. Either that or she might take an equally effectual post-nuptial revenge. She isn’t going to be content with being a piece on her husband’s gameboard — her money is going to make her into a player in her own right, and if he decides to enter the lists against her, there’s no guarantee her husband will win.
Why not go the traditional route? Marry some young dumb thing who looks up to you and who’d never doubt that you have her best interests at heart. Once you’re married, be consistent about keeping her in the dark. Never let her even guess at how much money you make. With a view of her future privation always before her, get her accustomed to making do with little. When you dump her, chances are she’ll be so heartbroken she won’t make a fuss, and if you see to it that she has no finances to fight back with, the operation (meaning the separation) should go as smoothly as such things can.
Happy to have been of help. The life of a lobster is not an easy one.
No, no, no; you’re making the cardinal error of assuming that a woman is a person, and can do something – anything – as well as a man.
To these fuckstains, there’s no way she’d be able to do anything to the ex who dumped her, because she’s just a woman.
My sister plays professional poker as a hobby, and she says it’s really easy for her to get to Day 2 of the tournaments because so many of the male players assume that because she’s a woman, she’s an incompetent poker player. They think there’s no way she can be running the odds in her head on the fly, reading their tells, or using a strategic betting strategy, so she demolishes most of them easily. By Day 2, however, most of the idiots have been weeded out, so things get a bit trickier.
Still, that sort of unexamined misogyny is rampant, in both pro poker and real life.
“Will you bore a little faster?” said the incel to the prof
“There’s an MRA behind us and he’s starting to go off.”
See how eagerly the lobsters and the ‘gaters all advance.
They are waiting for the red pill – will you come and join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?
“You can really have no notion how delightful it will be
When the women are redistributed and the best will be for me”
But the prof replied “I doubt it!” and thought it best not left to chance—
It would have to be compulsory or else no one would dance.
Would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join the dance.
Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join the dance.
“What matters it how far we go?” his incel friend exclaims,
“Edgelords rank over Chads, you know, when we achieve our aims.
The further off from humanity, the more I get to rage —
Don’t brush us off, almighty prof: we’re both on the same page.
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?
@Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Oh my goodness (Or as I really prefer to say “oh my Goddess”..hope that’s ok) yes I think we could be distant cousins! That’s so awesome and I love your nym too! I was actually inspired to take this one by David’s excellent post on the incel creeps and yoga pants. What those creeps said really upset me. I’m a cis-het woman and present as traditionally feminine and “girly” and have the body type that they associate with “Staceys” but was influenced in college by a brilliant sex-positive feminist professor and mentor. I wear yoga pants, leggings and tights without a skirt a lot but only in venues where appropriate. I work in an upscale hair salon where dressing a little edgy helps us cultivate the image our clients enjoy and expect. So I wear yoga pants or just tights and heels and a top but it’s part of my style and self-expression and sure as **** NOT for some creepy guy’s jollies. No one will make me into a commodity. I have learned to demand absolute control over my body and my personal space regardless of how I dress. This post too, like the one on yoga pants, really gets at the issue of the commodification of not just our bodies but our identities. So I guess I chose this nym as an act of resistance. 🙂 So many brilliant commenters here articulate better than I could the surrounding issues and I love reading what all of you have to say! So sorry to go on so long and thank you for welcoming me!
@Dvärghundspossen
Oh thank you so much for the welcome package I love it!
I have a kitty at home, Mittens, and she is my best friend and princess.
@Kupo
Thank you so much for the welcome!
I really do love reading the discussion here!
So many of you (WWTH, for instance but really others too) in your posts remind me of my Women’s Studies professors in college. I miss them dearly.
@Gaebolga: I have no idea how poker tournaments work, but is there any way she can “cash out” at the end of the first day or whatever and make a modest but nice earning with that? Or do you have to win the entire thing to take home anything? I just loved the idea of someone being able to run a hustle just by effortlessly being themselves, not even trying to have an “amateur” persona, just letting the mark’s prejudices fill one in for them.
Also, kudos to everyone writing in this thread, this thread has probably the best collection of comments on the site.
Misandry achievement unlocked!
http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/AJ-Lee-Victory-Celebration-On-WWE-Gif.gif
@WWTH
Oh you just make my day! I just love her and her spirit!! And I love *your*….well, triumphalism! So uplifting! Who is she? (Sorry, don’t watch much wrestling or MMA…this little goddess is a ballet girl and also does…haha, watch out creepy misogynists! …capoeira) But I love the little black bottom she has on with the ring in the side…so stylish!…. and have one just like it that I wear at work and going clubbing or to a party. 🙂
The incel marriage strategy reminds me of a gaming mechanic in (I think) MMO Asheron’s Call.
If your character died, you’d lose a random expensive piece of of equipped armor or weapon.
The players managed to reverse engineer the algorithm. Players then wore a piece of “Death Jewelry”, which would be selected by the game to sacrifice if your character died.
I think to the incel, wife #1 is valuable, but easy to cut loose if a potential hot wife #2 appears and you want to go to upgraded Marriage v2.0.
Mammoths on Twitter have probably seen this already; an article about “toxic femininity” that’s clearly inspired by JP rhetoric. I’m sharing it here after reading wwth’s post upthread, which highlights, inter alia, the sheer impossibility of the tightrope women are expected to tread when it comes to acceptable femininity. This extract in particular:
(I’ve screencapped and shared from Saeen’s tweet; don’t want to share directly from the source because ew).
Please explain that to all the dudes replying to this woman.
https://twitter.com/biscoffbabe/status/1016399886584041476?s=19
(Kinda gross that they managed to not even get over that low of a bar.)
@ChimericMind to make money in a poker tournament you have to reach a certain point in the tournament before you make any money. For example the World Series of Poker Main Event is currently underway in Las Vegas. To make any money in the tournament you had to finish 1182nd or better, out of 7874 players. The smallest prize was 15 thousand dollars, and the entry fee to the tournament was 10 thousand dollars.
@Mish
Oh that is DEFINITELY inspired by Peterson. I saw that fucking video where he strongly implies that women seek to be homemakers by default, a trait that is biologically determined.
To those who are blissfully unaware, Peterson essentially defends workplace sexual harassment because women purposefully put themselves in display for men. According to him, lipstick is supposed to emulate women’s lips turning red during sex and solely for the purpose of attracting guys.
@ChimericMind:
As tim gueguen said, you start winning money after you reach a certain point. My sister – being the genius that she is (and I do mean that literally) – never pays to enter tournaments; she only goes to the ones you can win your way into, so the only cost is her time…and since she enjoys poker, it’s not much of a cost. I’d say she wins money a little less than half the time, which means she usually makes about $20,000 a year on her hobby (although she did win $40k in one tournament a couple years ago).
It’s a testament to the tenacity of the misogynistic filter that the chucklefucks she plays against still think she’s incompetent even after they see her poker face; she’s like a statue. She’s been kicking my ass at poker since she was 7 and I was 12.
Mish, thank you for posting this. It’s horrible but I needed to see it.
It’s hard for me to say how deeply angry this makes me. It enrages me. How dare they. I can and will dress any way I want. I don’t “invite” anything. I feel amazing when I dress the way I do. I’m not inviting or demanding anything from men other than that they treat me like an independent human being.
Has anyone seen those “tights are not pants” so-called “manifestos”, which is really just sexist slut-shaming? (Like this: http://tightsarenotpants.com/manifesto) Oh I just hate hate HATE that so much.
I don’t care what some body-shaming creep incel thinks are or aren’t some particular piece of clothing. I put my outfit together each day with a lot of thought and it is a relection of my creativity. If our clients are greeted by a someone with a stylish, and, yes, a little edgy, look all I am trying to convey is that our salon has an energy and vibe to it — a vibe that is behind us helping them look their absolute best.
If I have so much power how come I have to be afraid of some creep getting all up in my space or touching me or worse just because I am trying to take FIVE MINUTES to go get a cup of coffee. YES, I wore tights and NO skirt or shorts or anything else but it was with a fitted black top that my best friend got me for my birthday last month and that had great memories in it besides looking good and it was with EXTREMELY cute black strappy heels with rhinestones on the buckles that matched my the accents in my neckband and earrings perfectly 🙂 (Mittens, my kitty, liked them because she batted at them when I hugged her goodbye this morning so THERE body-shaming creeps) And yes, they were sheer tights but I had on fishnets over them (because you can actually layer tights, did you know that?! :)) so I looked just fine and perfectly presentable…yes, even when I step next door to get my coffee from the coffee shop beside us, so everybody else can go to hell. No I’m not wearing a skirt over this, asshole, you guessed right. Get over it creep. This is MY creativity and my artistry and my style. Why do I feel I even have to explain and justify this?
“Toxic feminity”…who the fuck? Who and what the ever living fuck? I’m not asking anything from any man other than to leave me alone (unless he’s cute). But that’s my right and it’s not any more than any man would automatically get.
Oh wow everyone I am so sorry to go off this way. This just struck a chord in me.
@Diego Duarte
Your point, on the other hand, strikes a positive chord in me. Very prescient observation! I’m glad you brought that up. So relevant to my life….as if I only create my outfit each day “for” some man I don’t even know!
@Mish
Love your nym my dear! I’m a proud cat lady!
If men are so fragile that it emasculates them to look at a woman they find attractive without sexually assaulting her, maybe they just aren’t suited to the demands of the working world and should just stay home where it’s safe and quiet and no toxic female boobs and butts are around?
I also kind of doubt they’d keep their position that it’s not okay to turn a man on if he’s not allowed to act on it if it were a gay, bi or pan man saying that men who look sexy in their presence deserve to be harassed? If boners make men uncontrollable rape monsters, then men should be careful how they dress too, right?
This is why I like you WWTH. 🙂
I wish I could state things that way. I want to go back to school! 🙂
I’m going to have to think of a way to work “Toxic Femininity” into my nym, because that’s just too hilarious not to ridicule to the Gods.
Aww. Thanks, StaceySmartyPants!
You don’t have to go back to school though. Just argue against enough whiny sad boner trolls on here and you’ll have a whole grab bag full of refutations ready to go right off the top of your head. I’ve been commenting here long enough to have heard all the talking points a million times.
No, thank *you* WWTH!
I am starting to love it that I might be just exactly the kind of woman that makes the sad boner trolls (that’s hilarious) the angriest, maybe? Yay!
Problem with that being, we don’t get many trolls anymore. It seems they finally got the message that even though they may think they’re alpha lions, kings of the online jungle, around here they’re just some little balls with bells in them. bat bat tinkle meow!
Toxic masculinity is named that way not only because it is harmful to women, but also because it is harmful to men (and nonbinary folks). The toxicity hurts us all, in different extents and aspects.
What exactly about “toxic feminity” as described is harmful to women? I mean, I guess at a stretch you might argue that wlw women may also end up with
sad bonersurges that they tragically can’t immediately satisfy with the nearest object of their lust regardless of the object’s consent. But women weren’t actually taught that their sexual satisfaction should superceed the bodily autonomy of other people, so I doubt that many women would even think about how Evil Temptresses are to blame for forcing them to think about sex by daring to exist with a body.I apologize to everyone for writing such a long post that might have sounded mean. I was upset and I am so sorry for ranting like that. Everyone here is very nice and so so smart and I didn’t mean to ruin the vibe.
But thank you all so much because reading all this has just made me even more determined to be who I am. I’m resolved to channel how I feel into my creativity. I *will* dare to exist with *my* body and it will be more than that….it’s my palette and my sketchbook.
And that certainly isn’t toxic for *me*.