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Lobster math: Jordan Peterson fans calculate optimal age for men to marry to obtain highest quality females

I have completed my calculations. Let us commence the mating process

By David Futrelle

There comes a time in every Jordan Peterson fanboy’s life when he starts to think about settling down with a high quality female for mating purposes.

And so one such fan recently turned to the Jordan Peterson subreddit to ask his fellow lobsters (yes, they call themselves that) to ask for some help with his mating math. At what age, he asked, should a  man who is “progressing up the hierarchy ” allow himself “to be peeled off by a female” seeking marriage?

jtillery32 laid out his dilemma, noting first that

JP has often said women mate across and up [the] competence hierarchy. … Which is patently true. The problem that leaves me (and I’m sure a bunch of other lobsters vying for position) with is wondering when the appropriate time to allow yourself to be peeled off by a female.

Get out your calculators and lobster bibs, people, because things are going to get messy!

Essentially the question is this: if a man is progressing up the hierarchy (status, financial, getting into shape, etc), would it be in his and his future wife’s best interest to wait on settling down until he believed he was at his peak?

Because god forbid you marry some HB 7 you merely love and want to spend the rest of your life with when, if you had waited a few more years, you could have had yourself an 8 or 9 who was more interested in your money than your personality?

A good example of this problem is a 21 year old man who is handsome, articulate, athletic, in college, maybe works as a bartender and probably has pick of the women that attend the school or in some proximity, maybe from ages 18-25 VS the same man, 9 years later who is now in better shape, more handsome, more confident, more wise, financially “minted”, and has a much larger pool to choose from, maybe 21-35 year old women who are of higher quality (that sounds like a cut of beef) by nature of hypergamy.

Sounds a bit like that famous (if recently somewhat tarnished) “marshmallow test” where you offer a kid either one marshmallow right away or two if they’re willing to wait ten minutes. But with hot ladies instead of marshmallows. A whole pool of high quality hot lady marshmallows.

It would seem that if that 21 year old man was to marry someone at that age it would have been a grave mistake as he would have been able to have a higher quality partner had he waited 9 years.

Seriously, why settle for a One Marshmallow Stacey if you could wait a little and snag yourself a Two Marshmallow Stacey?

I would love an actual wise answer here and not some “well when you know she’s the right one when you just know” BS.

Fuck love, we’re all about Marshmallow Stacey Maximization here.

That sounds callous, but the reality is that you really can fall in love with many people and some people do multiple times in their lives, and could probably have successful marriages with more than “the one”.

Obviously this dude who rates women like cuts of beef has a great understanding of what makes for a successful marriage.

When should a man who is trying and succeeding to better himself in every way let himself be peeled off into marriage? And does preemptive peeling lead to resentment?

Dude, I suspect that with you EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING IN THE WORLD LEADS TO RESENTMENT. Waiting. Not waiting. EVERYTHING.

You see this a lot in professional athletes, and people who are aggressively climbing the hierarchy. The superstar dated and married the best girl (smartest, funniest, prettiest) at the high school, but now he’s the quarterback of an nfl team and has his pick of the best girls in the world. It’s a common theme among meteoric rises in men and I haven’t seen a good answer for it. Be loyal to the person who loved you before the status or keep aiming up to someone better?

And plenty of these “superstars” do in fact stay loyal to what you would see as sub-optimal partners. Because, you know, love?

I hate to tell you this, dude, but if this is really the way you think about relationships, you are NOT the great catch you think you are. You’ll make yourself miserable no matter who you marry — if you can find anyone gullible enough to marry you in the first place.

And the chances are good that nine years from now you won’t actually be “in better shape, more handsome, more confident, more wise” with “a much larger pool to choose from,” You will probably be earning more money. But you’ll also be nine years more bitter and resentful, and that’s not an attractive look for any man.

Don’t get married now. But don’t get married nine years from now either — at least not until you clear your head of this utterly toxic way of thinking.

Unfortunately, this being the Jordan Peterson subreddit, none of the commenters offered him the blunt advice he so desperately needs — though a few did warn him that by waiting too long for the “perfect woman” he might end up old and resentful and alone. (Might? Almost certainly will.)

He also got this less-than-optimal advice, from someone calling himself liberal_hr.

I agree that you should wait until your reach your maximum potential peak and then start looking for potential females.

There is just too much of a risk of you falling head over heels for a female and settling for less than you deserve.

Given that he literally deserves no one, I find this a little hard to believe.

And then there was NoelTrotsky, whose advice was somehow even worse:

It would be interesting to apply economic game theory to this problem. I’d bet that a young man’s best move would be to marry an older rich woman while young , take the help up the ladder, have kids, then leave at about 35 and marry young for a second round. Why not increase your odds with several marriages of significant lengths?

So, in other words he should act like a male version of every “Red Pill” dude’s caricature of a calculating, mercenary hypergamous woman who would drop any man she was with if in a second if she had a chance to “branch swing” to a higher-status man?

It’s almost as if the Red Pill notion of female hypergamy is less a reflection of how women actually behave in the real world than a projection of every Red Pill dude’s not-so-secret desire to trade up to a Victoria’s Secret model.

Jordan Peterson really brings out the worst in people, huh?

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JoeB
JoeB
2 years ago

Read a good post/thread somewhere (want to say twitter) on lobsters having basically made a deal with the devil for immortality. They don’t age they just get bigger and bigger with time until molting is just too physically taxing and they die from bacteria/parasite accumulation or being straight up squeezed to death by their own exoskeleton.

Yay Lobsters!
Yay Nature!!!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Do these guys want gold digging wives?

To extent this has already been answered, but this question does get right to the root of the entitlement of MRA/red pill/JP fanboys and why they end up so bitter and angry.

They want all the privileges of patriarchy and none of the responsibilities. This why MRAs claim to hate traditional gender roles, but they also hate feminism and get angry when anyone else actually works towards dismantling gender roles. I’m not defending traditional conservative religious types because they’re awful too, but at least their worldview is a little more realistic. They understand that their are tradeoffs in patriarchy. If women are going to get married young, stay home and never use birth control or get an abortion, then the men have to provide financially for women and children.

MRA types on the other hand, don’t get that at all. There’s not a woman on earth who doesn’t work outside the home because her only job is servicing her man and raising white babies, but doesn’t need any money to survive and raise the children. There’s not a woman on earth who is chaste and virginal, yet acts like a porn star in bed when she finally meets the correct MRA type man. There’s not a woman on earth who has a Barbie doll body, perfect hair, stylish clothes, and always looks perfectly “naturally” made up but without spending any time and money getting that look. There’s not a woman on earth who dedicates herself to becoming a trophy wife but wants to end up with a man who isn’t wealthy and powerful. Not only that, but they want a woman who doesn’t age.

And not related to dating and marriage, but they also want to be treated like supremely rational and intelligent beings, but they also don’t think they need to craft any logical and coherent arguments when they debate and they don’t think they need any education beyond YouTube videos telling them what they want to hear.

They want to be treated like gods for no reason but their gender and they want a woman who doesn’t exist anywhere but maybe the most pandering subset of anime. Not only want it, but feel entitled to it. Of course they’re angry all the time. They hold out hope they’ll magically turn into Brad Pitt or George Clooney when they age and then they’ll find the living waifu of their dreams, but deep down they know it isn’t happening. What else is there to do but express their impotent rage online?

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

It’s quite illustrative when you compare this post to the previous post from Andrew Angelin. Really, the complete lack of respect for women’s basic humanity and autonomy is present in each; Angelin is just far more overtly hostile, while Peterson just slaps a mortarboard on it and calls it “academic”.

It just galls me that people fall for this guy. I mean, it’s one thing for you just to be your garden-variety misogynist and graduate from harassing Zoe Quinn on Twitter four years ago, supporting Trump three years ago, Milo two and then come to this Kermit-voiced dillhole and find him to be useful cover, but it’s something else to be a fourteen- or fifteen-year-old kid coming into his own, looking at this own identity and thinking that this obvious snake oil salesman is some kind of father figure. Because as much as I am just as susceptible to being taken in by a convincing story, the one thing that sets off red flags for me is when somebody tells me exactly what they think I want to hear based on who I am, and then the action items don’t take any work on my part.

That’s what makes Peterson so appealing to the YouTube generation: he’s a fatherly quote-unquote scholar who’s telling you “Yeah, all that contempt you’ve been building up for the women who haven’t thrown themselves at you and call themselves ‘feminists’ and those Black Lives Matter protesters that made you feel bad once and those trans people that call you a bigot and those… all that contempt is exactly what you should feel and you don’t have to question yourself at all. Just clean your room and pet a cat every so often and keep on consuming.” It’s almost perfect in its marketing: an action item that is just common sense boilerplate self-care, and zero challenges to the audience’s cultivated identity or comfort level. Nirvana can be achieved without leaving the bedroom. How goddamned convenient!

I was thinking about my own political trajectory just this morning and I realized that I’ve gradually been moving further and further left as time has gone on. Without a doubt, a large part of it is reactionary in the face of right-wing malfeasance: watching your teachers and school support workers get screwed over by the government as a fifteen-year-old kid tends to crystallize your politics pretty quickly. But it was far more moderate when I was younger and still had some faith in media and the capacity of the average person to learn based on past decisions. Mike Harris’ Premiership, Bush’s re-election in 2004, Stephen Harper, followed by Rob Ford, Donald Trump and now Doug Ford has only laid bare that people cannot be relied upon to account for their own mistakes, nor can they adequately resist a reassuring fiction. They will vote for the bullshit artist that lets them keep doing what they’re doing every time.

But blame for their rise can’t rest on them alone: they can only succeed in the absence of a robust opposition that offers an alternative to the snake oil and that’s what’s had me questioning whatever centrism I used to hold. Because in each of the cases I mentioned above, the rise of the right-wing grifter came after decades of ineffective and milquetoast “centrist” governance. 13 years of austere Liberal rule at the federal level topped off by a Sponsorship scandal gave us the Harper Tories. 15 years of status quo and political gamesmanship on the part of the provincial Liberals have given us Premier Doug Ford. Eight years of David Miller struggling against amalgamation gave us Rob Ford. And in the face of Donald Trump telling people that he could “make America great again,” what was Hillary’s response. “America’s already great”? Great for who?! Nobody in the Democratic coalition except maybe a handful of Manhattanites. Talk about being out of touch….

If I have one worry going forward, it’s that tepid leadership under Trudeau will yield an even worse Tory government in the future. It won’t be Scheer and it probably won’t be for another decade, but for all we know, the Jordan Peterson acolyte of today could be a Tory leadership hopeful of tomorrow playing off centrist failure to change anything.

And that scares me.

That said, the one thing Trudeau has as his major legislative achievement is marijuana legalization and that just might make him popular enough with young people to secure victories in the coming years. Time will tell.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

when the appropriate time to allow yourself to be peeled off by a female

Ah yes, the banana of bachelorhood. A magical potassium-rich wonderland…

FANTASY: …of nonstop career advancement, lifting, and partying.

REALITY: …of higher tax brackets, meaningless sex, no unemployment cushion, and being 100% responsible for household maintenance. Thus not having as much time to focus on climbing the career ladder as he thinks he will, unless he’s fine living with dirty dishes, wrinkled shirts, takeout containers, and a Superfund bathroom for the next twenty years.

(It’s been said before, but men benefit significantly from marriage, especially financially).

@ellesar – Yeah, that sentence is really revealing. Hot gold digger > unconditional love? I don’t know why these guys are so outraged and surprised when they reduce human relationships to the exchange of commodities, and then find themselves viewed as a commodity. He’s literally saying he plans to purchase beauty with his future earnings.

Maybe that’s why they’re so salty about child support and alimony. They don’t think they should have to keep on paying once the dewy youthfulness is gone.

@Catalpa

I really love how these Peterson cultists were all cheering for “enforced monogamy” to solve the problem of angry entitled dudes deciding to kill people, and now talk about how they should definitely ditch their current partner the second a hotter one becomes available. Super logically consistent there, dudes. Truly you have a staggering intellect.

I guess the “logic”, if you can call it that, is that women are a resource, and monogamy only applies to resources, not owners. A gallon of milk or a car doesn’t just up and go find a new owner. But an owner can decide at any time to trade in a high-mileage car or a jug of sour milk for a new one.

I think maybe we ought to up their optimum marriage age to “5 billion years from now, when the sun engulfs the earth”.

@Surplus

Tell them that and these guys’ll just hold out for Aleph-zero Marshmallow Alice. Who, mind you, doesn’t hold a candle to Small Veblen Ordinal Vanessa … ok, they’re still screwed

I can’t even wrap my mind around the huge opportunity cost of being with Graham’s Number Gertrude. That’s a lot of s’mores.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

@K

I’m glad that Furie is fighting the good fight. It’s a shame that he has to do so, though. It’s shitty enough when people steal and repost your art online, I can’t imagine how much worse it is to have your artwork appropriated by a bunch of fascists into a hate symbol.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

@Mogie

I think you’re on to something with this Elon Musk and Peterson fanbase comparison. I disagree with some of the opinions here, which seem to put the Musk fanbase on a more intermediate ground, given that he’s following is almost entirely libertarian and he’s already on his way to becoming Trump.

Remember when he announced a registry of fake news journalists as retaliation for investigate reporting calling him out on preventing his workers from unionizing?

And there’s also a lot of pure, undiluted truth into what WWTH just said as well, which can be of use when looking into these fanbases, which nearly always seem to stem from libertarian circles.

It’s certainly not a coincidence that the same men who form the most vocal bit of the anime fanbase, the gaming community, comics fanbase, and libertarian circles intersect into this huge Venn diagram which includes the most toxic and reactionary political movements.

Personally, I feel that the reason why personalities like Trump, Musk and Peterson seem to resonate so strongly with Millennial libertarians is that they seem to offer what they have been advertised their entire lives.

Our generation has been bombarded with entertainment moreso than any other previous generation. And given that a lot of that entertainment was geared towards legitimizing gender roles and expectations, whilst romanticizing power and violence, it has fostered socially regressive views to levels never before seen.

These men were brought up to believe they were entitled to a beautiful partner, who would be entirely subservient to them, and they were also brought up to believe that they could conquer any obstacle through sheer effort or strength of character, only to find out neither of these was true.

It also doesn’t help that they are mostly White men and were afforded privileges that others did not have whilst growing up. So they’ve become entirely convinced that they are entitled to everything without having to better themselves.

And after that perceived slight of having “everything stripped away from them”, along come personalities such as Musk, Trump and Peterson who represent the übermensch they’ve wanted to be their whole lives, and who tell them that this status can easily be gained, if they just trample all over the disenfranchised.

In short, I feel that the reason why these fanbases are overly toxic to people who criticize these Musk, Trump or Peterson, is not because they actually believe them to be flawless, but because they represent the idealized version of what White men could be were it not for the pesky minorities and lefties: successfully wealthy, “intelligent” men, married to “beautiful” women.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

I was browsing YouTube late one night
When I came across a guy, talking shite
He sounded like Kermit and made no sense to me
But he’s very big on forced monogamy

He’s done the maths
He’s done the lobster maths
The lobster maths
It was a Reddit smash

He did the maths
Although it seems quite crude
The lobster maths
Is this even peer reviewed…?

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

@Weirwoodtreehugger: You so hit the nail on the head with that one. There’s such a thing as a realistic conservative, in that his values might be fucked up but at least he’s got an internally consistent picture of what he wants life to be like and what he wants women to be like. The people David mock on this blog, on the other hand, not so much…

Fishy Goat
Fishy Goat
2 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw, Scildfreja Unnyðnes *standing ovation*

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

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StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@Scilfreja

I just wanted to say I have really enjoyed your intelligence and writing style as I’ve read through the archives (that goes for many others here too actually). This post was the first I commented on so I was a little nervous.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved,

Aw, thank you <3 It means a lot to me! I spend a lot of time editing my posts to make sure they say what I mean them to say. Which is to say, sometimes I get it close to correct. Welcome, I'm glad you're posting!

@WWTH, I totally agree with you. All I'd add is to emphasize that MRA's really just want to be told how smart/correct they are. They want to be valued and vindicated. For a lot of dudes, being "valued" means "gaining the rewards of society" – wealth, status, hotwife, etc.

It's in the name, Return of Kings. They think they're all kings, rightful rulers by divine providence. It's the womz what’ve stolen what’s rightfully theirs.

All easier to do than to look at the pain and hurt inside and evaluate it all honestly.

@Diego, I think also you are right! The intersection point between Libertarians, MRA’s, Fascists, GamorGate, etc, is in the inability for a certain subset of mostly-white-men to get the fuck over themselves. They were told they were kings, and find the world doesn’t treat them like royalty, so instead of just dealing with that they throw their tantrums. And because they’re at the peak of the social hierarchy, the world shudders with their punch-drunk ambulation.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants
Buttercup Q. Skullpants
2 years ago

@Scildfreja

It’s in the name, Return of Kings.

Did anyone keep the receipt?

@Diego

Well said. Part of me thinks that Trump’s piggish behavior is an essential part of his appeal to white supremacists. Trump ascending to the Presidency is “proof” to them that even the worst white man is better than the best woman and the best black man. Trump is a total POS, inferior in every way, and yet he holds the same office as Obama, buoyed and protected by a thousand arcane rules, conventions, and institutions designed to insulate him from the consequences of being such a POS. The right loves to watch him getting away with stuff Obama and Hillary couldn’t.

@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved

Welcome! Love your nym. Maybe we’re distant cousins?

Pull up a chair, and help yourself to a welcome package from the sidebar.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
2 years ago

I think the most striking thing about this is that it’s deeply embedded in the question’s basic assumptions that men accrue value, women can only lose it as they get less young and taut.

He doesn’t have a concept of a couple getting better together, both getting more educated, earning more, becoming more self-aware, working together to achieve goals. It’s about becoming your ‘best self’ and then snagging a woman too young and naive to realize how shoddy your best self is.

And I mean, that’s BEFORE we talk about love.

They should read more Victorian novels. The young man is supposed to fall in love, and then work feverishly to become a successful enough fellow that he can hold up his head when he asks her papa for her hand.

Podkayne Lives
Podkayne Lives
2 years ago

9000 hours of his videos.
9000 hours.

That’s more than two years if you devoted twelve hours a day, seven days a week to watching Jordan Peterson videos. And just typing that, I feel my whole body cringing in boredom and weariness. It sounds like something that would happen to you in 1984. If you really pissed off Big Brother.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

I can’t even wrap my mind around the huge opportunity cost of being with Graham’s Number Gertrude. That’s a lot of s’mores.

Finite, unlike those ordinals, and not even particularly impressively big by finite standards (consider e.g. TREE(3) Marshmallow Theresa). 🙂

Maybe the only way out would be to terminally baffle them with Continuum Hypothesis Constance, whose exact ranking is not only unknown, but known to be formally undecidable.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

@StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
Welcome! Pull up a hard chair and join us in our scented candle burning ritual

Edit:

That’s more than two years if you devoted twelve hours a day, seven days a week to watching Jordan Peterson videos

Which you’re required to do for proper “context” before commenting or refuting.

Yamara
2 years ago

A whole pool of high quality hot lady marshmallows

You mean like most eligible princess in Arendelle?

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Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

Which you’re required to do for proper “context” before commenting or refuting.

No, I’m pretty sure you have to read his books as well before you are so much as allowed to comment on the color of his shoes, much less his easily debunked reactionary views.

@Scildfreja

Hey Scildreja! Welcome back (not sure if you went away or if I kept on missing your comments, but I’m going to welcome you back regardless)!

You’re precisely on point with all this aggrieved entitlement. I’ve spent years arguing on a facebook page against libertarianism, and one of the regulars once said something that stuck with me:

“Libertarians are guys born on third base, who think they’ve hit a third.”

That phrase can be largely applied to the entire manosphere. These people were born to privilege and were able to get away with consuming entertainment their whole lives, without having to amount to anything. So, when their time came to go out into the world they found their skills lacking, in nearly every field.

Of course, rather than questioning their life choices and trying to improve themselves, they just stuck with blaming everyone else. Especially those women and POC who stole their dreams of financial stability and a hot, subservient wife.

@Buttercup Skullpants

Nice read. It’s certainly not incidental that many of the forms of entertainment these people watch hinge upon that premise: no matter how good or exceptional women or POC are, the White man is always supposed to rule over them.

Plenty of shows and anime, in particular, sell that concept over and over again. Lonely guy, living by himself, finally settles with hot girlfriend who happens to be an alien/super robot/super heroine/inter dimensional being/goddess/demon/etc etc ad infinity, and who also happens to be entirely into him and subservient.

The message is etched into their minds: no matter how bad they are or how good she is, she’s still supposed to be subservient.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

@StaceySmartyPants: Here’s your welcome package! Enjoy!

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
2 years ago

Ok link fail… I’ll just copypaste the url in here then and hope that works better: https://artistryforfeminismandkittens.wordpress.com/the-official-man-boobz-complimentary-welcome-package/

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

@Diego Duarte

Which you’re required to do for proper “context” before commenting or refuting.

No, I’m pretty sure you have to read his books as well before you are so much as allowed to comment on the color of his shoes, much less his easily debunked reactionary views.

It is a common misconception that peterson’s comments need to be taken in the context of the rest of his work. You can learn every word he’s ever said or written and be able to repeat it on demand, but you still won’t have the right context, which is that you must accept peterson as your lord and savior. Once you’ve done that, you’ll understand his sayings.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

Dvärghundspossen

It is a common misconception that peterson’s comments need to be taken in the context of the rest of his work. You can learn every word he’s ever said or written and be able to repeat it on demand, but you still won’t have the right context, which is that you must accept peterson as your lord and savior. Once you’ve done that, you’ll understand his sayings.

And the worst part of it is that Peterson’s rants are 10,000 worse when put into proper context. Take his “enforced monogamy” bullshit.

By itself, the concept of enforced monogamy is problematic, but it could be interpreted in many different ways (each one still as problematic as the next).

But put that “enforced monogamy” in the context of expressing his support for a group that want to enslave women and reduce them to the status of property, and it immediately becomes a dumpster fire. Worse yet, throw in the fact that he called for enforced monogamy in the aftermath of a terrorist attack, and in support of people going ER and it becomes entirely indefensible.

Peterson himself is aware of this and that is why he always engages in platitudes or vague statements. He throws out random general statements, which by themselves might be entirely true, but he always does it in a context that implies that the societal differences between men and women are biological, instead of cultural.

So that forces the other person to either try to refute his earlier statement, making them seem unhinged and overly emotional, or to try to decrypt whatever the fuck he’s trying to say, at which point he’ll complain he’s being misrepresented.

Personally, I think these people know full well Peterson is full of shit. They just hang on to him for dear life because they know they can quickly deflect. This is a sort of reactionary movement they can sell to everyone, as opposed to Nazism, which is too blatant to be palatable to most people.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

I’d bet that a young man’s best move would be to marry an older rich woman while young , take the help up the ladder, have kids, then leave at about 35 and marry young for a second round. Why not increase your odds with several marriages of significant lengths?

My advice would be not to do that. A rich woman, one who has resources of her own, might object to being thrown over after twelve or fifteen years of wedlock and might take (effectual) steps to make sure it doesn’t happen. Either that or she might take an equally effectual post-nuptial revenge. She isn’t going to be content with being a piece on her husband’s gameboard — her money is going to make her into a player in her own right, and if he decides to enter the lists against her, there’s no guarantee her husband will win.

Why not go the traditional route? Marry some young dumb thing who looks up to you and who’d never doubt that you have her best interests at heart. Once you’re married, be consistent about keeping her in the dark. Never let her even guess at how much money you make. With a view of her future privation always before her, get her accustomed to making do with little. When you dump her, chances are she’ll be so heartbroken she won’t make a fuss, and if you see to it that she has no finances to fight back with, the operation (meaning the separation) should go as smoothly as such things can.

Happy to have been of help. The life of a lobster is not an easy one.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

bekabot wrote:

She isn’t going to be content with being a piece on her husband’s gameboard — her money is going to make her into a player in her own right, and if he decides to enter the lists against her, there’s no guarantee her husband will win.

No, no, no; you’re making the cardinal error of assuming that a woman is a person, and can do something – anything – as well as a man.

To these fuckstains, there’s no way she’d be able to do anything to the ex who dumped her, because she’s just a woman.

My sister plays professional poker as a hobby, and she says it’s really easy for her to get to Day 2 of the tournaments because so many of the male players assume that because she’s a woman, she’s an incompetent poker player. They think there’s no way she can be running the odds in her head on the fly, reading their tells, or using a strategic betting strategy, so she demolishes most of them easily. By Day 2, however, most of the idiots have been weeded out, so things get a bit trickier.

Still, that sort of unexamined misogyny is rampant, in both pro poker and real life.

Marshmallow Stacy Maximal (formerly Bluecat)
Marshmallow Stacy Maximal (formerly Bluecat)
2 years ago

“Will you bore a little faster?” said the incel to the prof
“There’s an MRA behind us and he’s starting to go off.”
See how eagerly the lobsters and the ‘gaters all advance.
They are waiting for the red pill – will you come and join the dance?

Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?

“You can really have no notion how delightful it will be
When the women are redistributed and the best will be for me”
But the prof replied “I doubt it!” and thought it best not left to chance—
It would have to be compulsory or else no one would dance.

Would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join the dance.
Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join the dance.

“What matters it how far we go?” his incel friend exclaims,
“Edgelords rank over Chads, you know, when we achieve our aims.
The further off from humanity, the more I get to rage —
Don’t brush us off, almighty prof: we’re both on the same page.

Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Oh my goodness (Or as I really prefer to say “oh my Goddess”..hope that’s ok) yes I think we could be distant cousins! That’s so awesome and I love your nym too! I was actually inspired to take this one by David’s excellent post on the incel creeps and yoga pants. What those creeps said really upset me. I’m a cis-het woman and present as traditionally feminine and “girly” and have the body type that they associate with “Staceys” but was influenced in college by a brilliant sex-positive feminist professor and mentor. I wear yoga pants, leggings and tights without a skirt a lot but only in venues where appropriate. I work in an upscale hair salon where dressing a little edgy helps us cultivate the image our clients enjoy and expect. So I wear yoga pants or just tights and heels and a top but it’s part of my style and self-expression and sure as **** NOT for some creepy guy’s jollies. No one will make me into a commodity. I have learned to demand absolute control over my body and my personal space regardless of how I dress. This post too, like the one on yoga pants, really gets at the issue of the commodification of not just our bodies but our identities. So I guess I chose this nym as an act of resistance. 🙂 So many brilliant commenters here articulate better than I could the surrounding issues and I love reading what all of you have to say! So sorry to go on so long and thank you for welcoming me!

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

Oh thank you so much for the welcome package I love it!

I have a kitty at home, Mittens, and she is my best friend and princess.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@Kupo

Thank you so much for the welcome!

I really do love reading the discussion here!

So many of you (WWTH, for instance but really others too) in your posts remind me of my Women’s Studies professors in college. I miss them dearly.

ChimericMind
ChimericMind
2 years ago

@Gaebolga: I have no idea how poker tournaments work, but is there any way she can “cash out” at the end of the first day or whatever and make a modest but nice earning with that? Or do you have to win the entire thing to take home anything? I just loved the idea of someone being able to run a hustle just by effortlessly being themselves, not even trying to have an “amateur” persona, just letting the mark’s prejudices fill one in for them.

Also, kudos to everyone writing in this thread, this thread has probably the best collection of comments on the site.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

So many of you (WWTH, for instance but really others too) in your posts remind me of my Women’s Studies professors in college.

Misandry achievement unlocked!

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/AJ-Lee-Victory-Celebration-On-WWE-Gif.gif

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@WWTH

Oh you just make my day! I just love her and her spirit!! And I love *your*….well, triumphalism! So uplifting! Who is she? (Sorry, don’t watch much wrestling or MMA…this little goddess is a ballet girl and also does…haha, watch out creepy misogynists! …capoeira) But I love the little black bottom she has on with the ring in the side…so stylish!…. and have one just like it that I wear at work and going clubbing or to a party. 🙂

Birdie Bird
Birdie Bird
2 years ago

The incel marriage strategy reminds me of a gaming mechanic in (I think) MMO Asheron’s Call.

If your character died, you’d lose a random expensive piece of of equipped armor or weapon.

The players managed to reverse engineer the algorithm. Players then wore a piece of “Death Jewelry”, which would be selected by the game to sacrifice if your character died.

I think to the incel, wife #1 is valuable, but easy to cut loose if a potential hot wife #2 appears and you want to go to upgraded Marriage v2.0.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

Mammoths on Twitter have probably seen this already; an article about “toxic femininity” that’s clearly inspired by JP rhetoric. I’m sharing it here after reading wwth’s post upthread, which highlights, inter alia, the sheer impossibility of the tightrope women are expected to tread when it comes to acceptable femininity. This extract in particular:

comment image

(I’ve screencapped and shared from Saeen’s tweet; don’t want to share directly from the source because ew).

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Every woman has the right to not be touched if she does not wish to be.

Please explain that to all the dudes replying to this woman.
https://twitter.com/biscoffbabe/status/1016399886584041476?s=19

(Kinda gross that they managed to not even get over that low of a bar.)

tim gueguen
2 years ago

@ChimericMind to make money in a poker tournament you have to reach a certain point in the tournament before you make any money. For example the World Series of Poker Main Event is currently underway in Las Vegas. To make any money in the tournament you had to finish 1182nd or better, out of 7874 players. The smallest prize was 15 thousand dollars, and the entry fee to the tournament was 10 thousand dollars.

Diego Duarte
Diego Duarte
2 years ago

@Mish

Oh that is DEFINITELY inspired by Peterson. I saw that fucking video where he strongly implies that women seek to be homemakers by default, a trait that is biologically determined.

To those who are blissfully unaware, Peterson essentially defends workplace sexual harassment because women purposefully put themselves in display for men. According to him, lipstick is supposed to emulate women’s lips turning red during sex and solely for the purpose of attracting guys.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

@ChimericMind:

As tim gueguen said, you start winning money after you reach a certain point. My sister – being the genius that she is (and I do mean that literally) – never pays to enter tournaments; she only goes to the ones you can win your way into, so the only cost is her time…and since she enjoys poker, it’s not much of a cost. I’d say she wins money a little less than half the time, which means she usually makes about $20,000 a year on her hobby (although she did win $40k in one tournament a couple years ago).

It’s a testament to the tenacity of the misogynistic filter that the chucklefucks she plays against still think she’s incompetent even after they see her poker face; she’s like a statue. She’s been kicking my ass at poker since she was 7 and I was 12.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

Mish, thank you for posting this. It’s horrible but I needed to see it.

It’s hard for me to say how deeply angry this makes me. It enrages me. How dare they. I can and will dress any way I want. I don’t “invite” anything. I feel amazing when I dress the way I do. I’m not inviting or demanding anything from men other than that they treat me like an independent human being.

Has anyone seen those “tights are not pants” so-called “manifestos”, which is really just sexist slut-shaming? (Like this: http://tightsarenotpants.com/manifesto) Oh I just hate hate HATE that so much.

I don’t care what some body-shaming creep incel thinks are or aren’t some particular piece of clothing. I put my outfit together each day with a lot of thought and it is a relection of my creativity. If our clients are greeted by a someone with a stylish, and, yes, a little edgy, look all I am trying to convey is that our salon has an energy and vibe to it — a vibe that is behind us helping them look their absolute best.

If I have so much power how come I have to be afraid of some creep getting all up in my space or touching me or worse just because I am trying to take FIVE MINUTES to go get a cup of coffee. YES, I wore tights and NO skirt or shorts or anything else but it was with a fitted black top that my best friend got me for my birthday last month and that had great memories in it besides looking good and it was with EXTREMELY cute black strappy heels with rhinestones on the buckles that matched my the accents in my neckband and earrings perfectly 🙂 (Mittens, my kitty, liked them because she batted at them when I hugged her goodbye this morning so THERE body-shaming creeps) And yes, they were sheer tights but I had on fishnets over them (because you can actually layer tights, did you know that?! :)) so I looked just fine and perfectly presentable…yes, even when I step next door to get my coffee from the coffee shop beside us, so everybody else can go to hell. No I’m not wearing a skirt over this, asshole, you guessed right. Get over it creep. This is MY creativity and my artistry and my style. Why do I feel I even have to explain and justify this?

“Toxic feminity”…who the fuck? Who and what the ever living fuck? I’m not asking anything from any man other than to leave me alone (unless he’s cute). But that’s my right and it’s not any more than any man would automatically get.
Oh wow everyone I am so sorry to go off this way. This just struck a chord in me.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

@Diego Duarte

Your point, on the other hand, strikes a positive chord in me. Very prescient observation! I’m glad you brought that up. So relevant to my life….as if I only create my outfit each day “for” some man I don’t even know!

@Mish

Love your nym my dear! I’m a proud cat lady!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

If men are so fragile that it emasculates them to look at a woman they find attractive without sexually assaulting her, maybe they just aren’t suited to the demands of the working world and should just stay home where it’s safe and quiet and no toxic female boobs and butts are around?

I also kind of doubt they’d keep their position that it’s not okay to turn a man on if he’s not allowed to act on it if it were a gay, bi or pan man saying that men who look sexy in their presence deserve to be harassed? If boners make men uncontrollable rape monsters, then men should be careful how they dress too, right?

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

This is why I like you WWTH. 🙂

I wish I could state things that way. I want to go back to school! 🙂

Bina
2 years ago

I’m going to have to think of a way to work “Toxic Femininity” into my nym, because that’s just too hilarious not to ridicule to the Gods.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Aww. Thanks, StaceySmartyPants!

You don’t have to go back to school though. Just argue against enough whiny sad boner trolls on here and you’ll have a whole grab bag full of refutations ready to go right off the top of your head. I’ve been commenting here long enough to have heard all the talking points a million times.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

No, thank *you* WWTH!

I am starting to love it that I might be just exactly the kind of woman that makes the sad boner trolls (that’s hilarious) the angriest, maybe? Yay!

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Problem with that being, we don’t get many trolls anymore. It seems they finally got the message that even though they may think they’re alpha lions, kings of the online jungle, around here they’re just some little balls with bells in them. bat bat tinkle meow!

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Toxic masculinity is named that way not only because it is harmful to women, but also because it is harmful to men (and nonbinary folks). The toxicity hurts us all, in different extents and aspects.

What exactly about “toxic feminity” as described is harmful to women? I mean, I guess at a stretch you might argue that wlw women may also end up with sad boners urges that they tragically can’t immediately satisfy with the nearest object of their lust regardless of the object’s consent. But women weren’t actually taught that their sexual satisfaction should superceed the bodily autonomy of other people, so I doubt that many women would even think about how Evil Temptresses are to blame for forcing them to think about sex by daring to exist with a body.

StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
StaceySmartyPantsTwiceRemoved
2 years ago

I apologize to everyone for writing such a long post that might have sounded mean. I was upset and I am so sorry for ranting like that. Everyone here is very nice and so so smart and I didn’t mean to ruin the vibe.

But thank you all so much because reading all this has just made me even more determined to be who I am. I’m resolved to channel how I feel into my creativity. I *will* dare to exist with *my* body and it will be more than that….it’s my palette and my sketchbook.

And that certainly isn’t toxic for *me*.