By David Futrelle
If you spend a lot of time on Twitter, you probably know about The Ratio, the closest thing we have to an objective measure of the Extreme Badness of any particular tweet. If someone gets many times as many comments on a tweet than retweets and likes, chances are good that most of those comments are telling them that they’re full of crap. The higher the ratio of responses to retweets/likes, the worse the tweet.
Yesterday I ran across the most extremely ratioed tweet I’ve ever seen, posted by a Chicago radio personality — John Willians of WGN — doubting a story of street harassment tweeted out by Amy Guth, also a radio host on the same station. By the time I saw it, the tweet had gotten more than a thousand responses — and only 2 retweets. Reading it, I think you’ll see why.
https://twitter.com/wgnkingjohn/status/1006715276057030656
It probably didn’t hurt that Guth tweeted out a bit of a challenge to her Twitter followers:
Women of internet: my colleague keeps insisting I can’t possibly be telling the truth re instances of street harassment and other comments from strangers. Pls feel free to @ him as many stories of street harassment or commentary from strangers as you’d like to share. Thanks! https://t.co/jV6siaOpR8
— Amy Güth (@amyguth) June 13, 2018
The two evidently discussed the matter on his show yesterday, which I unfortunately missed. I’m sure he learned a thing or two.
And he could learn a lot more from the hundreds of women (and a smaller percentage of men) who responded to his tweet with pointed critiques — and stories of the street harassment. I’ve collected some of the responses that stood out the most to me; you can also plunge straight into the giant thread yourself here.
The critiques were appropriately blunt.
And then there were the stories — story after story, weird and horrible and utterly believable. (I’ve blacked out the names for all the story tweets because, you know, this is the internet.)
An appalling — if not surprising — number of respondents said they started getting creepy come-ons and other varieties of sexeual harassment when they were still children.
Horrifying. And there are so, so many more in the thread itself.
Dudes, if at this point — after #metoo, after Trump’s “pussy grabbing” tape, after countless public revelations — you still doubt that street harassment happens, it’s because of one or more of these things 1) you’re not talking to women, 2) you’re not listening to women, or 3) you give off such a creepy, Men’s Rightsy vibe that no woman feels comfortable telling you about the harassment she’s had to deal with. Fix yourself. Start by reading this whole thread on twitter.
Now I understand why I never stay around here.
Everyone misses my point.
Yes; It’s up to the men to change.
I KNOW THAT!
Here’s where I’m coming from….frustration.
It’s not enough to demand that laws change and that men change. We ALSO need something for women to do WHILE THEY DO THE FORMER BECAUSE WOMEN ARE STRONG AND RAPE AND HARASSMENT ISN’T GOING AWAY OVERNIGHT!
I’m sick of “Woman = Victim”. I see all these shows with all these “Action Girls” and….while I’m aware they’re fictional….I still look to that as inspiration for women & girls.
I guess my vision of Feminism isn’t yours. Mine has gals undoing eons of Patriarchal programming and putting guys in their place. Mine has women aspiring to be the equivalent of Rey, Furiosa, Xena, Pam Bouvier, Wai Lin, Pre-“Other M” Samus Aran, etc.
But it doesn’t have to be literal. I’m not saying women have to be violent at all.
I’m NOT saying the onus is not on the guys or The System to change. THEY MUST CHANGE AND WE MUST WORK TO CHANGE THAT MORE AND ANYTHING!
In the meantime, while working on that, women need to indulge in their RIGHT to enjoy parties, walk down the street, etc. Gals shouldn’t be helpless. No more gals feeling violated because some slug groped and wolf-whistled. They need a defense of some sort so they don’t feel vulnerable and violated.
Gals deserve to be happy, confident and secure.
I’m sorry for my tone but I’m FRUSTRATED!
I’m female.
I was bullied as a kid.
Injustice is a huge berserk button for me.
I have issues upstairs.
I can’t communicate ideas well.
I agree that non-violence and de-escalation is best. I agree 100%.
I agree that it onus is on the GUYS to change.
I apologize for the insults, condescension and being a hard-headed.
Obviously we’re talking from two different trains of thought and two different visions of things.
I come here to comment and be “One of the gang” but I never truly “belong”.
I’m always wrong. I try to explain what I really mean but it comes out wrong.
I am NOT saying the onus is on the woman.
But everyone sees it as that.
Is it wrong for women & girls….while they fight to change the laws, raise awareness and demand that THE GUYS CHANGE to find a way to fend off advances on an individual basis (ideally non-violently)?
Must gals just “take it” until the system changes?
I refuse a “Yes” answer.
I’m sick of helplessness.
I also feel excluded here. Again and again I come and comment and make friends and be part of the gang but my ideas and everything else is beneath everyone and everything despite the fact that I’m on your side!
@SpukiKitty
We’re not singling you out or trying to exclude you, but if you want to get along with us and make friends and be one of the gang you need to understand that no one is going to treat you differently from every one else, and we will call out anyone who posts something problematic. I’ve been called out before myself. The key is to understand that it’s not about making you feel bad, it’s about challenging ideas. It’s about educating and promoting feminism.
Don’t double down and defend ideas that are called out. Listen and learn.
If you wish to be “one of the gang”, a few good options to help you in that endeavor would be to not automatically insult and belittle someone who disagrees with you, and to not claim that your points are being constantly misrepresented while simultaneously misrepresenting what everyone else is saying.
No one is saying that women and girls should just “take” street harassment and be helpless. We’re saying that each individual and circumstance is different, and there is not a single “correct” response to street harassment that is one size fits all. Women should be able to use their own best judgement when it comes to how they respond, and should not be judged for how they do so. If a woman decides to keep her head down because she doesn’t want to risk being attacked or if she doesn’t have the damn time to give the asshole a response or can’t talk back because her social anxiety is flaring up or because Saturn is in retrograde or any other damn reason, then that’s her choice. It’s not her responsibility to respond “correctly” when men are the ones who are behaving appallingly.
If a woman wants to holla back, that’s her choice too, and she should feel free to make it. But she should not feel OBLIGATED to do so.
@piperzoso:
My personal favorite are the men who tell me to smile. No, because men like that are the reason I’ve had Resting B*tch Face since age 4. It’s unsettling to have older men call you “pretty” at that age. It really is.
But wait, there’s more! Even if if you do comply, they may then critique the genuineness of your reaction: “No, a real smile.”
@kupo
I understand.
I just feel helpless and hate seeing other women feel helpless.
I read these accounts from these women an girls and they always remark on how wrong they felt, how violated and helpless they felt and it makes me feel the same way.
I then hear about a woman who put one over on a harasser and I smile.
I understand that it’s best to not make a scene.
I understand everything everyone is saying. I agree.
I just hate seeing women “just taking it”. How long must she just “take it” before reforms in our laws and how we raise our sons is made.
In a world where fiction involving butt-kicking women are big hits I just can’t see gals “just taking it”.
I’m sorry. But there needs to be a way were the gal comes out safe AND retains her strength, status and dignity.
Nature made women….like all mammals, to have defenses.
Why must the female half of the human species be so helpless? It makes no sense from a biological and natural standpoint.
Why are we such outliers? Sure; Females get raped and stuff in other species but females in those same species are also capable of thwarting attacks.
I just hate being helpless. How long must women continue to demand being treated like human beings? Why aren’t sympathetic men popping up everywhere and speaking out?
Yes; There are good guys out there, like David. However; There’s a lot of otherwise good guys who are too chicken to speak out or in denial.
Maybe we women need to tell the scared guys that it’s okay to speak out against misogyny and that they’ll boost their “manliness” if they did so.
@ spukikitty
You’re quite right that these sorts of men are often just cowardly bullies; and indeed some may well slink away when confronted. The problem is *you can’t tell*. They could be just as likely to try to save face by resorting to violence. Heck, just consider what happens to some women when they turn down a date.
Now I fully appreciate I’m coming at this from a personal safety perspective, not a societal one. I’m also well aware that harassment by can cause significant mental harm. Ironically, knowing about the (lack of) practical options can often mitigate against that (it helps alleviate the feelings of guilt or inadequacy at not retaliating).
I very much share your aspirations of women, generally, being able to stand up to men. Teaching women to fight is my main hobby. But I have a duty here to only offer practical advice (as I see it). I’m not suggesting women *should* follow it. It’s not my place to dictate to any woman how she should personally respond; but I do feel an onus to at least highlight some of the factors to bear in mind.
ETA: ninja’d quite a bit
@Catalpa
I understand and I understand each case is different.
I realize how snarking back at the guy can make it worse.
Perhaps it’s best for her to walk away and not respond….while rolling her eyes with head held high, thinking “Can you believe this goofy guy?”….thus showing the guy that his attempt at intimidation is futile.
Perhaps defense is mental. When the stuff is happening, just think to yourself how weak, unhappy, insecure, powerless and ineffectually he is and that he’s a clown.
I’ve been called out before, too (here, and other places). It’s not fun but I did my best to drop the reflexive defensiveness and just listen.
What I never, ever did was say shit like “sorry, sweetie”, or “hey, idiot”. No-one here deserves to be addressed like that – least of all kupo. It’s not my call but personally I think you owe kupo an apology.
Spuki, you came in here already on the defensive (“it’s too negative here”) and listed suggestions for dealing with harassment as if no-one had ever thought of them before. Women have been trying to work out how to deal with this shit forever.
None of us are just “taking it”. We’re handling as best we can given our different situations. It just gets exhausting when all the focus seems to be on how we should be and what we should do.
Yes, but it’s fight, flight or freeze. Flight and freeze are just as valid as fight. My dog is always trying to chase rabbits, I’ve seen a rabbit freeze and become totally invisible to her. Now, my dog is actually kind of wimp even though she’s largeish. If a rabbit decided to act with aggression towards her, she’d probably back right down. But the rabbit can’t now that. It sees a larger animal barrelling towards it, it runs. It sees a large animal in the vicinity it might freeze in hopes of becoming invisible to the larger animal. Are the rabbits wrong for not trying to fight my dog? Flight and freeze are both sensible strategies. Defense is about survival, not teaching the predator a lesson. If a creeper is around me, I’m going to follow my instincts. If they tell me to get away, I’ll do that. If they tell me to ignore him to deescelate, I’ll do that. Occasionally, I’ve told them to get the fuck away from me. But only when I’m in a situation where I have reason to believe I might be able to escape or get help if necessary.
If someone wants to tell off every harasser, great! But there’s no shame in deciding you don’t have the time or energy to do that and there’s nothing wrong with paying attention to a fear response either. We have those responses for a reason.
I believe yes defense is mental. to care that you must win against the harasser or assault it’s means that you are playing their game. I learned from what happened to me, it means nothing to me now what the people who assalt or harass or bully me thinks. I tortured myself worrying what they think, what my colleagues who know what happened will think – and this effected me so badly for many years. this means I learned thst really what matters is that i survived – inside and outside. now when people insult or try to harass me, I try not to give any reaction not because I care about them, but because I care about myself. I know if I can walk away to some safe place or if I can keep my words and thoughts inside I limit what damage they will do to me. this is my method. obviously I am not a woman – so what harassment I received is less but I believe it is more than most men because of my nature. but also it is only men who every sexually harassed or assault me – which I think also shows that this is where is the problem. with toxic masculinity.
Off-topic, but WTF? Can’t wait to hear his reasons… https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018/06/15/uk-law-to-ban-upskirting-photos-blocked-by-conservative-lawmaker.html
@Mish
I do owe kupo an apology.
I’m sorry, kupo. I’m sorry for the insults. The “sweetie”, the “idiot”, everything.
I’m sorry that I hurt you.
I understand what everyone is saying now.
You’re not saying “be helpless and take it”, you’re saying that retorting back isn’t always safe and sometimes it’s best to pretend they’re not there and ignore them. Ignore them, they want a response.
After the fact, find a way to deal with it, like that gal who contacted those catcalling construction worker’s workplace.
Sometimes the best way to fight back is activism.
It’s also important to demand that non-jerk guys speak out against misogyny and that it’ll be the ultimate mark of manhood if they do so.
Anyway; I apologize for being a sludgeface, here.
Oops, too late to edit. Anyway, at least everyone seems to be calling him out on it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/tory-mp-christopher-chope-blocks-progress-of-upskirting-bill
@ rabid rabbit
He doesn’t have any reasons. He’s a known contrarian and obstructionist. He’s done this many times before. He’s admitted that he doesn’t even know what an upskirt is (and for legal reasons I totally believe him of course).
I’m rather embarrassed as he’s a barrister. I have taken some steps, useless as they may be in practical effect, to at least ensure he knows people are not pleased.
*hugs*
I’ve been lurking here off and on a better part of 6 years now. These types of conversations always stir up very strong feelings. Come back and post again tomorrow; you’ll probably be in a better headspace.
And *hugs* again.
And not to argue, but
@WWTH
We were just talking about how men don’t believe white, middle-class CIS women about harassment, so why would they be any more believed about rape?
Don’t have to spend time and money on a class to learn self defense. 99.999999% of self defense is actually just learning situational awareness, which takes no money and little time.
Also, on the money front, it’s worth checking out if any local dojo’s offer free monthly self defense classes as a way of giving back to the community, as some do. 🙂 No, you won’t become a ninja, but if you can, learning some basic ways to break holds or whatnot is always good.
There’s a lot of things that you can do on your own. For example, a lot of women freeze up and can’t yell during an attack. Yelling in a dojo can be great way to learn this skill, but yelling at home can help. Also, doing any little thing to boost your confidence can help with this. I’m not saying that everyone can, but for many women this is a learnable skill at home.
@Alan
A lot of street harassment is about dominance displays, but a lot of street harassment is actually an interview to see if someone is submissive and therefore a good target for a crime. (Often rape). I’ve lived in one if the more violent cities in the US. I can think of more than once where submissive behavior in my part ESCALATED the situation.
Of course, the opposite has happened as well, where being submissive deescalated the situation, and where being aggressive almost certainly would have escalated it.
There is no truth. Which I suspect is your point, so I’m just quibbling. 😉
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee & Valentin – Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Makes sense on all counts.
I’m also thinking of the idea of “inner self defense”, a way of changing one’s mindset so that if you do survive….but it involved a terrible assault….that it doesn’t affect your psyche much.
It’s awesome to survive but it’s a bit of a bummer when you must survive with PTSD. *ugh*
Sadly; “Inner Self-Defense” borders on that crummy adage about “Sticks & Stones” and I’m aware that, while “Don’t let them or their actions have power over you” may sound like great advice on the surface, not everyone can manage pulling it off.
Well; Hopefully they’re will be a Blue Wave in November and the GOP will be greatly weakened. Muller’s been digging up some dirt on Trump, Pence, etc. and Manafort’s now in prison. The #MeToo movement is a thing and folks are slowly waking up.
When the whole Trumpster Dumpster Fire is finally out, we can work on going forward with the ERA, creating a comprehensive curriculum against all forms of bigotry and bullying and stressing the importance of kindness and reciprocity.
In fact; For those who have Antisocial issues (who may be sociopath or whatnot) we can teach them to manage it by being kind to others. Sociopaths only understand “Self” and “feeling good”. If taught to be kind, even for selfish reasons (‘People will love you’) I’m sure it’ll suffice.
ETA:site’s acting funky and I was ninja’d somewhat.
@SpukiKitty
Apology accepted
@ dawnpurityseeker
That is so true. I did wonder whether to address that; but I didn’t want to derail by turning this into a self defence seminar.
I take it though from your post that you’re familiar with MacYoung’s “Five stages…” model? I’m a big fan of that myself.
@Alan Robertshaw & Valentin
I also owe you guys an apology as well.
@Rabid Rabbit
Glad he’s being called out. What a childish person. I don’t know exactly how British Law works but they need to find a way to disbar that guy if he’s being that ridiculous.
In speaking of “ridiculous judges/lawyers”, The judge that presided over the Brock Turner case got his butt kicked off the bench. That’s good.
@DawnPurityseeker
Hello. I’m glad to meet you.
@Alan
Yup. I don’t always agree with everything he says, but his blog has literally saved my hide. Mostly because he often confirmd what I already knew, and what was trying to be trained out of me by dicks wanting an easier victim.
For people who aren’t familiar with Marc McYoung;
Crime is a Process.
The 5 Stages of Violent Crime .
@ spukikitty
Oh no need to apologise. I understand where you’re coming from; and I don’t disagree with your underlying philosophy. It’s just such a tightrope women are expected to navigate. I wish there was a guaranteed one size fits all solution; but such a thing doesn’t exist unfortunately. All we can do is allow individual women to navigate that tightrope in a manner entirely of their own choosing, and support them in whatever decision they make.
ETA: @ dawnpurityseeeker
You’re very much echoing my own thoughts there.