By David Futrelle
If you spend a lot of time on Twitter, you probably know about The Ratio, the closest thing we have to an objective measure of the Extreme Badness of any particular tweet. If someone gets many times as many comments on a tweet than retweets and likes, chances are good that most of those comments are telling them that they’re full of crap. The higher the ratio of responses to retweets/likes, the worse the tweet.
Yesterday I ran across the most extremely ratioed tweet I’ve ever seen, posted by a Chicago radio personality — John Willians of WGN — doubting a story of street harassment tweeted out by Amy Guth, also a radio host on the same station. By the time I saw it, the tweet had gotten more than a thousand responses — and only 2 retweets. Reading it, I think you’ll see why.
https://twitter.com/wgnkingjohn/status/1006715276057030656
It probably didn’t hurt that Guth tweeted out a bit of a challenge to her Twitter followers:
Women of internet: my colleague keeps insisting I can’t possibly be telling the truth re instances of street harassment and other comments from strangers. Pls feel free to @ him as many stories of street harassment or commentary from strangers as you’d like to share. Thanks! https://t.co/jV6siaOpR8
— Amy Güth (@amyguth) June 13, 2018
The two evidently discussed the matter on his show yesterday, which I unfortunately missed. I’m sure he learned a thing or two.
And he could learn a lot more from the hundreds of women (and a smaller percentage of men) who responded to his tweet with pointed critiques — and stories of the street harassment. I’ve collected some of the responses that stood out the most to me; you can also plunge straight into the giant thread yourself here.
The critiques were appropriately blunt.
And then there were the stories — story after story, weird and horrible and utterly believable. (I’ve blacked out the names for all the story tweets because, you know, this is the internet.)
An appalling — if not surprising — number of respondents said they started getting creepy come-ons and other varieties of sexeual harassment when they were still children.
Horrifying. And there are so, so many more in the thread itself.
Dudes, if at this point — after #metoo, after Trump’s “pussy grabbing” tape, after countless public revelations — you still doubt that street harassment happens, it’s because of one or more of these things 1) you’re not talking to women, 2) you’re not listening to women, or 3) you give off such a creepy, Men’s Rightsy vibe that no woman feels comfortable telling you about the harassment she’s had to deal with. Fix yourself. Start by reading this whole thread on twitter.
@Dvärghundspossen Nope. All we can do is chip away at the crap, both within and without.
@SpukiKitty:
Yes, the HTML uses the word “blockquote,” or you can select the text and press the “quote” button (it’s at the top of the comment box, right under “Leave a Reply”).
@kupo – I didn’t get that from most of the links, except for the “hrdailyadvisor” one: it seemed victim-blamey and lined with corporate slime, but perhaps that’s my bias against LinkedIn-like blogs talking.
I had a more general/on-topic comment that I’ll post separately.
I’ve read this site for years but never commented. As a man (medically verified) I’ve never seen it myself but friends of mine have. There are 2 elements that my friends have mentioned. One is that it’s a private affair between 2 individuals and shouldn’t be entered into. The second is most guys are worried they’ll be attacked by the dick who’s doing it. Frankly we’re just frightened to get involved. Both are bullshit and chicken shit answers but it’s another prospective I’ve heard from my peers that should be considered. I just hope if the time comes I’ll have the confidence to say something but deep down I know both of those things enter my mind from time to time.
To add to the general comments, I think some people define sexual harassment too narrowly (for the various reasons stated above: denial, don’t want to admit they’re part of the problem, don’t want to see women and/or people unlike them as human, etc.)
Things that convey “I don’t think you’re sexy” can be sexual harassment too, as people already expressed. It’s about the power dynamic.
A couple of years ago, I was walking down a small street – it was fairly dark – and some teenage-sounding guys in a car yelled at me, “Nice legs… just kidding!” THEN they swerved the car as if to hit me, and I jumped. The former I’d acknowledge as a joke, if a stupid one, but I don’t appreciate threats of vehicular homicide. I’m strange that way.
Oh yes, and I was walking back from the local library when two guys (again young) were walking in my direction. One said to the other, “I’m bored, what should we do?” or the like; the other answered, “Oh, let’s rape somebody.” He looked at me and they both started laughing.
I don’t know whether the rationale was “let’s say something shocking in front of this female person” with or without “it’s funny because she’s not good-looking,” but I remember feeling nothing at first, and then a wave of anger. Fear I can sort of deal with, but I really hate being that angry. I used to get angry too easily – I still do – and mostly for unjustified reasons, so getting angry brings up all these self-hating feelings.
So I was really angry, but I couldn’t think fast enough to DO anything. I just muttered “fuck off” in their direction – they’d already gone the other way and couldn’t hear me. If I could take the slap I gave my cousin once for telling me to stop crying, and transfer it to them, I would. But we live in a non-slap-transferring universe.
Anyway. Just let it be known that I am a very angry person and will SWEAR QUIETLY if provoked.
@epitome of incomprehensibility
Thanks a billion bunches.
I was re-editing and was writing “blockquote” but it came out wrong (there must’ve been a tiny typo I initially didn’t spot) so I tried “quote” assuming the program changed (rather than me goofing).
@epitome of incomprehensibility
Really? Because every single one of those was about what women need to do to stop harassment. A man gropes you? Physically assault him and take his photo! A man catcalls you? Hand him a card! These all put the onus on women to solve the problem of men behaving badly.
Not to mention they’re just terrible advice. Do not escalate things in a dangerous situation. And the type of man who doesn’t respect your boundaries is dangerous, always.
@epitome of incomprehensibility
I admit I mostly skimmed these before posting and do not subscribe to the more problematic elements of one of those. Sorry about that.
Dear, Kupo;
Here’s an idea: Women shouldn’t be confined to “Damsel In Distress” and be helpless or not fight back. Sorry, sweetie. Women are not weak and can kick ass. Women have issues with this due to “freezing up” because we’ve had millennia of programming that says “Men are rhinos. Women are jello”.
Men may have an advantage but they’re still humans, not Lions.
While I definitely feel we should demand stronger laws and teach guys not to be gross machopigs, I still think that gals should try to empower themselves and defend themselves.
I hate hearing people get mad about gals learning self-defense.
Okay; I GET why they’re mad (they feel it excuses not teaching guys not to be giant space-slugs to gals) but….like that little girl in that cheesy, cringy, incredibly ethnic-stereotypey taco shell commercial….”Why can’t we have both?”….
Fight to change laws, hold harassers and rapists accountable, teach guys not to be pigs.
AND
Gals learn how to fight back and not be terrified an helpless. Rape culture isn’t going away overnight so it makes sense to do something in the meantime.
***********
NOTE 1: I use ‘guys’ & ‘gals’ to denote males & females in general of any age rather than differentiate between men/boys & women/girls all the time. Also; Misogynists don’t deserve to be called ‘men’.
NOTE 2: Yes; I’m aware and acknowledge transgender people. I am aware that guys can be victims as well and gals aggressors (though it’s rarer).
NOTE 3: Finally; I hate the term “Men’s Right’s Activist/MRA” because these guys are not fighting for rights but, rather, privileges.
* “MRA” should only apply to those “Early MRA/Men’s Drum Circle/Iron John/’Rethinking our masculinity'” folks who were in many ways the OPPOSITE of goofuses like Roosh, Heartiste, Elam or whatever. “MALE SUPREMACIST”, IMHO, is the term to use because that’s what they are.
* Same with “Manosphere” due to the presence of “Man”. We need a new term for this thing….I came up with “Machosphere”. The machopigs of The Machosphere. If you can come up with a better term, then brainstorm.
What do you think of reclaiming that Red & Blue Pill stuff? After all….it was stolen from a movie series created by two women and these hate-fans have the pills meanings switched. I feel reclaiming can take away it’s power.
I even think “Pepe The Frog” should be a mascot for the Left. He’s a groovy stoner guy created by a Progressive cartoonist.
Unlike many people, I can envision Pepe as a laid-back hippie stoner figure. Make his shirt tie-dyed with a peace sign. Besides; The bigots already have their “Groyper The Frog/Toad/Thing”.
It’s a shame not many were on board for the “Reclaim Pepe” thing. It would have been a great F.U. to the bigots and take away the power of a symbol, re-purposing it for good (especially since it wasn’t the hatenik’s mascot to begin with! Matt Furie deserves his froggie!).
It’s good to have a symbol or mascot to rally around. It unifies.
On the pile of men refusing to believe women, we have the reactions to today’s news that Chris Hardwick is an abuser.
On the one hand, it wasn’t really abuse, just a messy relationship. On the other hand, Chloe Dykstra had it coming because he threw up some red flags at the very start and she dated him anyway. Well, both those things can’t be true at once. If it wasn’t abuse, how can she be blamed for not recognizing that he would abuse her? All the facepalms.
The men who disbelieve women who say they’ve been harassed or abused always seem to be the same men who blame any woman for being victimized by men for not always recognizing the same misogyny that they themselves walk around completely not noticing.
Women can absolutely empower themselves and defend themselves. And no where did I say I was angry about women learning self defense. Hell, none of those articles even suggested that women should learn self-defense. They suggested that the correct course of action for women facing harassment is to escalate the situation.
Thing is, there’s a difference between women choosing for themselves to take up self-defense and telling women they need to do so or continue facing constant, non-stop harassment from men.
Do you see the difference, here?
Nobody objects to women defending themselves if they are able and inclined to. But not everyone is physically or psychologically able. Not everyone has the time and/or money to learn self defense. That’s why it’s a problem to issue demands that women learn self defense.
It’s also important to remember that it’s not infallible. If someone has a gun or they blitz attack you, all the training in the world might not help. It’s also not applicable when it comes to coercion, workplace harassment, roofies and all sorts of other situations.
It’s also important to remember that some women are more likely to be believed than others. Black women, trans women, homeless women, sex workers etc. if they kick the ass of a guy who gropes them, there’s a good chance they’ll be arrested for assault. A white middle class cis woman might be praised and treated like a hero for successfully fending off an attack, but not every woman has that privilege.
ETA: Ninja’d on some of my points!
@Kupo
I do understand where you are coming from. I do agree that it’s best not to escalate the situation.
That said; I don’t want to see a gal just cower away when some sausagehead starts slobbering at her.
Perhaps she should look at the guy with bemusement, keep her head high and say to herself “What an insecure idiot” and acknowledge he’s a joke as far as “manhood” goes.
@weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee
I understand. I know self-defense isn’t fool-proof. Heck; I remember hearing a case where a guy managed to kidnap, rape and murder a gal and she was a self-defense instructor!
I know not all women are “fighters”.
I’m not even saying “Spend a bunch of money to learn a bunch of self-defense stuff” or “Beat up the guy attacking you”.
Heck; Ideally….if fighting can be avoided, that’s the best case scenario.
I am also aware of gals getting in trouble for defending themselves.
I’m well aware of the POC woman who got arrested for scaring off an abusive guy with a gun despite invoking the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law.
I’m aware of kids who slug their bullies only for they….not the bully….getting detention or worse.
That said; There’s got to be a way to defend oneself. We can’t be 100% helpless. We can’t just “take it” anymore.
What if that’s how she wants to respond? You’re seriously taking away her agency and telling her that you feeling good about her reaction is more important than her safety and ability to address it the way she sees fit.
And it’s ableist af to assume every woman even can do what you demand of them. I don’t process situations well in the moment. My default response is going to be to avoid conflict. So I’ll probably just avoid eye contact or look for someone nearby who looks like they might help. The very last thing I want to do is to give that asshole a reason to put his hands on me. But that’s apparently not acceptable to you.
In your first post, 80% of the links you provide are only examples of how women should respond to sexual harassment (the stop sexual harassment site seems more balanced at a first glance), and you say
Which implies that, yes, the solution to sexual harassment is for more women to yell at their harassers, for women to make the harassment stop.
Not a super big fan of that theory. Are women helpless? No. Are women personally responsible for learning whatever magical response will make each particular harasser stop (and not make them decide to escalate the harassment to physical violence)? Fuck no. Women should react in a way that they are most comfortable with, the way that feels most likely to get them out of the situation unscathed. It’s not the responsibility of the victims to put their safety on the line to teach the harassers to not be dicks.
I’m certainly not averse to kinetic solutions; and some people here know my obsession with self defence *but*, I would very much not recommend any of the approaches in these articles, tempting as it might be to teach these blokes a lesson.
People have already covered the societal issues, so I’ll just address the tactical side.
Here’s the preferred ‘hierarchy of responses’ we teach in self defence:
Avoidance
Evasion
De-Escalation
Pre-emotive strike
Defence
Note that winding the assailant up further isn’t in there. Now I don’t want to suggest women are weak little flowers who can’t/shouldn’t stand up for themselves. I know from many examples that’s not the case; but this is totally gender neutral advice. We advise the guys exactly the same.
A lot of street harassment is just a dominance display. It’s to make the assailant feel powerful, or boost his status to an audience. The guy equivalent is the “What you looking at?” challenge in the pub. That’s pretty common, but we certainly don’t advise any sort of clever comeback or humiliation. Quite the contrary, the safest thing to do is often a public display of submission.
So I wish there was some advice I could give to women on how to eviscerate these guys verbally so the woman feels better and leaves the encounter as the ‘winner’; but SD isn’t about salving egos; it’s about getting home safely. And if that’s your aim then, frustrating as it is, sometimes the best reaction is no reaction at all.
I like what wwth said about for black women, sex workers, trans women this is different and more dangerous than for cis , white middle class women. And secondly what kupo said about this is abelist. honestly – I think in most situations like this for most women or people who are feminine, to esculate or do these things is a) impossible or b) very bad idea and will make things worse. it us simply not practical and again, like always, takes blame from real aggressor and put a blame onto the victim.
SpukiKitty,
The thing is, you’re talking like women have just never thought up methods of dealing with harassment. Most every woman does have their method. We all have our methods of trying to avoid rape too. Not every woman has the same methods, but we pretty much all have them. We have to. When people say what we “should” do in these situations, it’s based on a faulty assumption. Harassment does not exist because women haven’t figured out how to deal with it. It exists because men are allowed to harass with impunity.
@kupo
Hey, Idiot….
I know not all women are “fighters”.
….Can’t you read?
Why must you nitpick? Why must you assume I’m saying all women must be Xena?
Also; Why are such a nit-picker? Why must you argue?
Sorry sweetness but the human female deserves to regain her true nature as it was in prehistory!
Heed the lesson of the mighty she-bear! Even she has a chance when up against an otherwise bigger and brawnier male bear.
It’s this way for mammals.
Humans are mammals.
Perhaps I’m not communicating well. I’m not saying she has to hit him or insult him. I’m aware that not all women can fight.
I want women to undo the lie programmed into their subconscious since Patriarchy was invented that states that human males are so infinitely stronger than women that a big tall woman could be easily over-powered by a short scrawny guy.
I’ve heard of big sturdy….even athletic women….being overpowered by short scrawy guys. I’m talking guys that look almost emaciated who probably have less mass than the woman yet, rather than the woman having a chance against a guy who’s only SLIGHTLY stronger than her, he manages to overpower her like he’s a WWE guy! WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
Okay. I get it. Sometimes it’s best to ignore them and not escalate the situation.
Yes; I’m aware that some people are physically disabled.
I apologize if I’m a bit obtuse.
What do you want me to say? Women are weak, cannot fight, are helpless and must depend on others to save her?
Nature gives each animal a means to defend themselves. Female humans are a part of this list. When Ms. Paleolithic and her children were threatened by a prehistoric critter, did she sit there and go “Golly! I wish my Mr. Paleolithic was around so he can protect me! Oh, Og! SAAAAVVVE ME!”
NO! She did WHAT EVERY FEMALE MAMMAL DOES! She defends herself and her young! It doesn’t work 100% of the time but she still did it.
I’m not saying use violence. In fact; Non-violence is ideal.
But a gal shouldn’t go through life being helpless and resigned….when they should speak out!
What should I say TO PLEASE YOU? WHAT CAN I SAY OTHER THAN “SHUT UP AND TAKE IT BECAUSE WOMEN ARE WEAK (A LIE)” THAT IS SATISFACTORY?!
I’m just frustrated.
Even when I try to explain away any misconception you may have, it’s never enough.
Okay….I got an idea…..
What do you want women to do in the meantime?
@SpukiKitty
You can hate the term Men’s Rights Activist as much as you want, that doesn’t change the fact that they call themselves that. If you try to change the terminology you just make it easier for them to pretend that they aren’t the problem.
“Oh, no, it’s not Men’s Rights Activists who are the problem it’s male supremacists…we just want equal rights! Even those horrible feminists agree!”
If the gardening tool identifies itself as a spade you have to call it a spade. If you call it a small triangular shovel it’s just going to confuse people trying to figure out what you’re talking about.
QFT
Also, the fact that these conversations always lead to advice to women on how to avoid or respond to it and I’ve yet to see a plan for how to, for example, get curriculum added to schools to help boys understand from an early age that this behavior is unacceptable, says a lot about how our society views the problem – as a women’s problem, not as a societal problem.
Spuki it is not necessary to use ablist slur or insult eachother.
Kupo logically pointed something you missed – there is no reason to disrespect her.
@Spukikitty
Cool your damn jets with the insults and condescension, would you?
Why are you trying to put the focus on what WOMEN should do when MEN are the ones doing the harassing?
@Alan Robertshaw
But if we give the asshole what he wants, he’ll continue.
Yes; De-escalation is great but being submissive is what he wants.
How about walk way with a smirk and head held high as if to say “Nice try”. After all. He’s the wimp.
Women are strong.
Men are only a little bit taller and stronger. Their just humans, not bull elephants. There’s got to be a time when gals rise and show guys that women are just as strong as men in one form or another.
We NEED TO UNDO ALL THOSE LIES AND PROGRAMING that destroyed the female Homo Sapien Sapiens’ ability to defend herself from danger.
If men can fight so can women. That is NATURE. HOW NATURE MADE US.
Like you said; These weak inferior males who are not men pull this shit to show dominance. Don’t give them what they want.
The AGE OF FURIOSA IS NOW! NO MORE SUBMISSION!
I’m sick of seeing The System refuse to change! If the System refuses to change then SISTAS MUST DO IT FOR THEMSELVES!
Fight to change the system but at the same time be assertive. Make the weaker male think twice about harrassing the stronger woman.
Yes; It’s wise not to get snarky and not escalate the situation but the weak bully male shouldn’t have his dominance validated. Never give the bullies what they want and they will eventually stop!
@SpukiKitty
1) Insults are really unnecessary. You’ve broken the comments policy in at least two ways here, both by insulting me and by doing it in an ableist manner.
2) It’s not not picking when I’m taking issue with the main focus of your post (i.e. the idea that it’s women who need to change because men are behaving poorly.
The only thing that’s teaching them is to pick more vulnerable victims.
And yes, while there are plenty of individual women who could win a fight with an individual man, even “winning” a fight does not mean that you get out uninjured. Often a fight, a real fight, causes injuries to both parties. So even if a woman wins, she still might end up in a hospital. (Not to mention possible legal ramifications, and that’s assuming that the fight is fair and the harasser didn’t have a weapon.)
In pretty much all cases, avoiding a fight is the correct choice. And no amount of RAH WOMEN STRONG AND POWERFUL rhetoric is going to change that.
There are dozens and dozens of more effective (and safe) ways to combat street harassment that do not include literally putting women’s bodies on the line.