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Incels debate Texas school shooting: Is Dimitrios Pagourtzis too handsome to be /ourguy?

School shooting suspect Dimitrios Pagourtzis

By David Futrelle

In the wake of today’s school shooting in Santa Fe — which left ten dead and another ten wounded — the mood on Incels.me is unusually subdued. On the highly active forum for self-described “involuntary celibates,” school shooters and other mass murderers are celebrated as heroes, with Elliot Rodger, who killed six in Alta Vista, California in 2014 as an act of “retribution” against women for rejecting him, regarded as a veritable incel saint.

But nobody on Incels.me is hailing the Santa Fe shooting suspect, 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, as the second coming of ER.

In part that’s because, less than a month after a horrific act of mass murder in Toronto by a self-desctibed incel brought their community more media attention than ever before, users and mods alike are worried that any excessive displays of enthusiasm might lead to their forum being shut down.

And in part that’s because a lot of the regulars on Incels.me aren’t convinced that Pagourtzis is ugly enough to be a true incel.

Oh sure, there are some who are celebrating Pagourtzis’ alleged gun rampage as an act of heroism in the war against “normies.”

“THE INCEL REBELLION HAS ALREADY BEGUN!” cried one commenter, quoting from the Facebook message posted by Alek Minassian shortly before, police say, he deliberately ran down pedestrians in downtown Toronto, killing ten.

“[L]et us pray for the victims and their families,” another commenter in the same thread wrote sarcastically. “Hopefully they will suffer immensely.”

“A nice surprise for my Friday,” wrote a commenter in another thread devoted to the shootings.

“Fucking based,” added another in the same thread. “I hope the normslime suffered as they drew their last breaths.”

“Very good news” agreed a third, “guy might not have looked traditionally incel but he did rack up a nice score.”

In yet another thread, a commenter took pleasure in imaging the teenage girls likely killed in the rampage. “Take that hypergamous sluts,” he declared.

But not everyone was quite ready to canonize Pagourtzis as the newest incel saint. For one thing, he’s not dead, a fact that led some on the board to mock him as a “pussy” too cowardly to end his rampage with a dignified suicide.

But the real sticking point for many on Incels.me was that, in their minds, Pagourtzis is simply too conventionally attractive to merit the incel moniker.

“He looks like a high tier normie,” noted one ambivalent commenter, ” but maybe he is a mentalcel.” (That is, someone whose romantic and sexual woes are allegedly caused by their mental problems rather than their looks.)

“This dude has chad looks,” complained another in the same thread. “Just look at his masculine frame, lose big forearms and big wrists and pretty face. Next to him I look like a piece of shit with my skinny fat, manlet body, ugly face, small forearms and wrists like twigs!”

“If I was that good looking I would have never heard of this site,” sniffed a third.

Still, not everyone on Incels.me is convinced that Pagourtzis is a “high tier normie,” much less one of those hated Chads.

While the alleged shooter isn’t ugly, one commenter noted, he’s also “not a Chad which means he may as well have been ugly. Women make no distinction between a 1/10 and a 5/10. You’re either hot or not.”

Others said they suspected he was a “manlet” — that is, too short to catch the eye of Chad-obsessed Stacies.

Still others detected what they saw as a fatal flaw in his facial structure that would forever disqualify him from female attention. “NEGATIVE CANTHAL TILT,” one commenter thundered. “1 flaw = ITS OVER”

What on earth is “negative canthal tilt,” you may wonder — at least if you’re not an incel or a plastic surgeon. It means that your eyes droop a little at the outer corners. NCT has become something of an obsession with incels trying to find flaws in their own appearance because they refuse to believe the real flaw is in their personality.

Trust me, fellas. The real problem isn’t your looks. It’s literally everything else about you — as your reaction to this tragedy makes very clear.

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weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Uh oh, fellow Stacies and Beckies. I think our Chads our being stolen by Brads. Brad Pitt maybe even

comment image

Good news for incels I guess.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

Also, he was a ham:

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ scildfreja

Far as I’m concerned he can go walk into the sea

So it was you that threw him in the Hellespont. We’ve told you before about abusing your time travelling abilities.

Brandy Turing
Brandy Turing
2 years ago

WWTH, that was reported in the New York Times yesterday, but it wasn’t an official conclusion from the authorities. It was a statement made by a fellow student.

Kole Dixon, 16, a sophomore, said he was standing outside history class when the fire alarm suddenly went off. He sprinted out a side door, and heard gunshots in rapid succession over the sound of the fire alarm.

When the shooting stopped, Mr. Dixon said that friends told him that the gunman first entered an art classroom, said “Surprise!” and started shooting. The suspect’s ex-girlfriend was among the people shot in that classroom, he said.

Kevin
Kevin
2 years ago

@ Scild

You’re right, Byron could be a prize arse. Sometimes I wonder what attracts people to his type.

Kereea
Kereea
2 years ago

I’ll admit, I wondered if they’d embrace him. Dude was on the football team. Aka the kind of Chad they usually hate.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Thanks, Brandy Turing.

In this case, I’m deferring to the student over the authorities because the authorities are so often reluctant to connect mass violence with misogyny. Even though mass shooters are much more likely than the general population to have a history of committing partner violence.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Welcome back, Scild. Glad you’re feeling more chipper. 🙂

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Byron was such an incredible ass that his daughter was raised as a mathematician so she would be nothing like him (and I’m glad she was, as I’d have to find a different skillset had she not invented the field I’m in).

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

@Kevin:

Intermittent reinforcement?

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
2 years ago

@all

Oh yes. Byron was a dick, no question. Might be why I thought of him in relation to this.

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

I liked Kate Beaton’s take on Byron.

http://www.harkavagrant.com/history/shellyfinal.png

Citizen Justin
2 years ago

Brit here. I was reading the Daily Mail today at work (yeah, I know, I know, it was the only paper in the canteen, OK?) and the picture for the article was the same one as the one for this entry on We Hunted the Mammoth, except he’d had a white ‘Hillary 2016’ hat photoshopped onto him.

However, it is likely that this was simply (very) sloppy sourcing on the part of the Daily Mail, rather than out of malice towards Hillary Clinton or the Democratic Party.

piperzoso
piperzoso
2 years ago

“Very good news” agreed a third, “guy might not have looked traditionally incel but he did rack up a nice score.”

Life must not be anything more than one extended video game playing session for these “incels.”

Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
2 years ago

@Dormousing:

I do have a rhetorical question. If women were to be doled out to men like any other resource, and forced to have sex with the man they were assigned to …

They could be GIVEN a sex slave… they could be given PornHub’s current #1… and I guaran-fuckin’-TEE YOU they would find something ELSE to bitch about.

Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
Bananananana dakry: Short-Haired, Fat, and Deranged
2 years ago

The more and more I see about these incels whining about things like bone structure and canthal tilt, the more and more I am astounded by the mental gyrations these guys go through to blame their troubles on everything but the selves behind the bone structure and canthal tilt.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

@Dormousing, @Weird . . . Eddie

I do have a rhetorical question. If women were to be doled out to men like any other resource, and forced to have sex with the man they were assigned to …

They could be GIVEN a sex slave… they could be given PornHub’s current #1… and I guaran-fuckin’-TEE YOU they would find something ELSE to bitch about.

And I guarantee you that they would also COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PORNHUB SEX SLAVE THEY WERE GIVEN.

She’s a sex slave. I want a woman who actually wants to be with me.

I don’t want the latest fad.

Everyone’s seen her already.

My online friends say I’m being CUCKED BY MY SEX SLAVE. UNFAIR!

Katherine the Adequate
Katherine the Adequate
2 years ago

I just read an MSN account that said one of his (dead) victims was a girl who had rejected his romantic advances. Her mom said the creep wouldn’t leave her alone, and her daughter finally stood up to him, “embarrassing” him. This sounds quite incel-ish, if true.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
2 years ago

lose big forearms

Assuming that’s meant to say what I think it is, the fuck is a loose forearm? Sounds like something you should see a doctor about. I mean, if your forearm is loose, I think it might be a good idea to get to an emergency room immediately

Fluffy Spider
Fluffy Spider
2 years ago

“Manlet”?
That sounds like some sort of outfit to me not a short guy. Most of the short (still taller than me) guys I know would piss themselves laughing if they were called this

Raven, Nudger of Dead Things and Loremaster of Dark Ugly Places
Raven, Nudger of Dead Things and Loremaster of Dark Ugly Places
2 years ago

Is the photo genuine? He’s got a bisexual pin on his hat…. and that would imply that he either supports bisexuality, or is himself bisexual.

Which isn’t to say that that means he’s not an incel (if anyone is capable of being such an awful person that they strike out with everybody they’ve ever tried to date of any gender, it’s a self-identified incel), but… a bit odd, isn’t it?

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

Raven,

That photo is genuine, and yep. You’re right. This adds another layer of mystery to him…

I don’t really think he’s incel, personally.

idli sambar
idli sambar
2 years ago

But the real sticking point for many on Incels.me was that, in their minds, Pagourtzis is simply too conventionally attractive to merit the incel moniker.

Elliot Rodger was better looking than this guy though.

The pin on his hat looks photoshopped.

And the comments left by the incels are so bereft of empathy I almost can’t believe anyone would even entertain such thoughts, much less type them out.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
2 years ago

A man wearing a trump hat and carrying a flag and GUN to the Texas school where the shooting took place. Oh yeah that’s exactly what traumatized teens need. They need to see some guy carrying a gun to their school.

https://mobile.twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/997542735119896576

And milo saying if women are nicer to men then they wouldn’t resort to violence. Coming from the same male who thinks SJWs are too sensitive and are entitled snowflakes.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

@Raven

He’s got a bisexual pin on his hat

Because I often encounter “Urban Dictionary”-type language on WHTM, I thought this was the latest way for a person to claim that they have “gaydar”–but for bisexuals.

I now see that you mean it literally.

But it would be a kickass expression.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

And they call women vain.

So they do.

And they also say that political progressives — excuse me, the correct word, according to the the right wing, is “libtards” — don’t want to work hard but instead want to blame others for their problems.

Ha, ha, ha!

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago

A little more information about the shooter from the Houston Chronicle, including photos taken from his Facebook, which has the photo of the hat with the bi-pin on it:

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Teen-suspect-in-Santa-Fe-shooting-promoted-12926019.php

idli sambar
idli sambar
2 years ago

If Milo says if women were nicer men wouldn’t shoot, then what does that say about women who men are not nice to? He’s not aware of it but he made an argument that women are superior to men because we don’t go around killing people just because men aren’t nice to us. Milo should be forever grateful that despite all the rapes, abuse, sexual harassment, unequal pay and a litany of other “not being nice to’s” we women do civilized things like create movements for awareness and work to change laws rather than go on murder sprees.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@Nequam

I liked Kate Beaton’s take on Byron.

I like Kate Beaton’s take on anything, tbh 🙂

Somewhat related to the current topic, I just watched some of a Star Wars fanfic, courtesy of a student who mentioned it in an assignment. I’m out of the loop so I’d never heard of it, but what tickled me is – it’s called Chad Vader: Day Shift Manager. Chad is Darth’s not-so-successful brother. Chad!! Unsuccessful!!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Darth was forced into becoming an evil fascist because he wasn’t the Chad. Obviously.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
2 years ago

@wwth

Darth was forced into becoming an evil fascist because he wasn’t the Chad. Obviously.

That, right there, is why you are Top Cat around here 👏👏👏

piperzoso
piperzoso
2 years ago

Reports are starting to come out that this boy had been aggressively pursuing a girl in his school for 4 months. According to the girl’s mother, the girl finally had enough one day and stood up to him during class. His embarrassment is likely what fueled his rage. Still no excuse, but alas…another one. 🙁

I wonder if the incels will reconsider letting him into their creepy little club, or if he’s still denied because he didn’t kill himself or because his wrists are still too big/canthal tilt is not negative enough/(insert other perceived physical “defect” here).
What a club–too many confusing admission requirements. There are many with far less, and far more fulfilling activities.

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
2 years ago
weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The refusal of our society to consider any kind of extremism that isn’t Islam-based terrorism is a serious threat to the safety of mostly Americans (because guns) but really everyone else too. Refusing to see that entitled misogyny and/or white nationalism leads to extremist violence is literally killing us. More gun control would certainly help reduce mass murders in the US, but like we saw with Toronto, extremists will use other means of murder too. So while we really need gun control, it is not the only thing we need. It’s urgent we address the radicalization of angry young men in general and not just angry young Muslim men. But that’s gotten totally lost in the debate between we need gun control vs. we need to do some vague unspecified thing about mental health and also turn schools into virtual prisons.

piperzoso
piperzoso
2 years ago

wwth:

People also need to stop lumping these radicalised young men into the horrifyingly vague “mentally ill” category (quotation marks because I hate that term). Mental health issues, if present in any individual, are not the root cause, as many people who have mental health issues will still give side-eye to a load of crap.
These movements work more like how a cult functions–sociopathic leaders, high on power and control, feed dangerous rhetoric to people who are seeking answers to their fears and insecurities. The only difference? There is no established religious element in these modern movements. Rather, plain ol’ misogyny is their weapon, and it’s used to exploit the dateless.

Paul Elam, Roosh V, and all the others are the 21st century’s Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite. Instead of mass suicides, however, they’re committing mass homicides. And I’ll leave now because what I really want to say next will be in violation of the comments policy.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I just wish someone in the blame mass shootings on mental illness crowd would explain what mental illness only affects American men. Or what mental illness manifests in a unique way in American men. It’s very confusing!

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

WWTH, I have seen a few cloth-heads on Facebook claiming that bullying is the cause. My stock response – ‘many different kinds of young people get bullied in high school – including girls, youth of color, LGBT and overlaps of those – but only white boys are bringing firearms to school. Why is that?’

Shuts ’em up real good.

idli sambar
idli sambar
2 years ago

There are some good articles on NPR’s website that link several recent shootings to the Vietnam war via the KKK, and Neo Nazis. After the Vietnam war a very tiny minority of vets joined KKK, Neo Nazi and other white nationalist type groups. Though amongst veterans their numbers were so minuscule as to go unnoticed, within the already small groups of KKKs and Neo Nazis these vets made up a significant number. They carried with them their military training, manuals and obtained weapons and trained others in the groups. Even today the preferred weapons for training in such groups are those that were used in Vietnam.

Anyway, these various racist groups who previously did not work together, aligned post the Vietnam war. Previously these groups were nationalistic but post Vietnam they turned against the US government.

Another change was that instead of attempts at open and large recruitment they turned their attention toward “empowering individuals” who would later go on to commit “lone wolf” murders and acts of terrorism, like Timothy McVeigh.

So like instead of working as a collective, individuals would just sort of self-educate while having lose but not obviously traceable connections to these groups. Of course the internet makes this even more possible as a KKK or neo Nazi would never even have to meet a single other KKK or new nazi in real life, ever in his life, and still be able to be one and carry out the ultimate plans of the collective group. That means that when they did commit violence, mass murders, acts of terrorism, the media would “lone wolf” it.

So basically much of the recent violence, shootings, mass murders, acts of terrorism that are taking place now are actually the results of a very specific, well thought out plan that was conceived in the 70s, almost 50 years ago.

Every time I hear “lone wolf” I think white supremacist sleeper cell.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ happy cat

That made me so angry, and generally I’m a pretty easy going sort.

I know they’re being deliberately provocative, which by their own standards of course means they only have themselves to blame if/when someone were to react. But it’s the moral and physical cowardice. They post crap like this whilst either hiding out physically, like Anglin, or behind the cloak of anonymity, like the rest of his ilk.

And we know how they scuttle back under the fridge when someone calls them out. Ugh. Can’t write further without breaching the comments policy.

Bina
2 years ago

Chad Vader: Day Shift Manager. Chad is Darth’s not-so-successful brother. Chad!! Unsuccessful!!

Just didn’t have what it took to be a SithLord, I guess.

Meanwhile, apropos the not-incel who shot up the school, a true story: 12-year-old me, who was definitely no Becky, let alone a Stacy, got horribly insulted by her 13-year-old crushboy in front of a roomful of other kids, just as she was waiting for the schoolbus to take her home. She did not shoot up the school at any time thereafter. She just got on the bus, her face buzzing, too numb to cry. And was immediately cured of her crush on the spot. She loathed him thereafter, and while she grew up to be quite nice looking, she never forgot the insult. And when she saw him in her doctor’s waiting room another dozen or so years down the line, she just death-stared at him until he turned beet red and shrank down in his chair.

And no, I can’t remember which way the scuzzbucket’s eyes tilted, nor do I care.

Valkyrine
Valkyrine
2 years ago

The “mentally ill lone wolf” shtick kind of reminds me of how often in cases where a woman would share a story about some dude who would continuously keep pestering/harassing her and ignoring all the social cues and soft noes and break her boundaries. This would without a fail always summon people excusing his behavior with “he’s probably just socially awkward, you shouldn’t (creep)shame him (or men in general) for that :(“

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Okay, we’re getting the point where the multiple irony layers are collapsing in on themselves. Do these people really believe in all this wrist size, “canthal tilt” nonsense? Because it struck me as more of a “so ridiculous that this’ll throw the normies off” piece of obfuscation, but now they’re actually tossing this crap around without irony in the direction of a mass murderer to… try to establish “incel” bona fides or somesuch crap?

Jenora Feuer
Jenora Feuer
2 years ago

@Katamount:
It could be both. Much like the Freedom Caucus grew out of the Tea Party which grew out of the Southern Strategy, or like a lot of the Incel movement grew out of the PUA movement: one generation’s made up stuff to draw the attention and votes/money of the rubes becomes the next generation’s sacred texts once the previous ‘rubes’ take over.