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By David Futrelle
Do MGTOWs hate women? It’s not a difficult question for most of those who’ve ever encountered the MGTOWs to answer. (The answer, by the way, is “yes.”)
But MGTOWs themselves have some trouble with the question. On the one hand, they would like the world to believe that they don’t hate women. On the other, they really really really fucking hate women.
We can see this, er, tension play out in the following two comments from the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit. Call it a Tale of Two MGTOWNs.
MGTOW is peace
In a recent thread devoted to the (more apparent than real) differences between so-called MGTOWs and so-called Incels (“involuntary celibates”), a fellow called Ed_Moy insisted:
MGTOW is a peaceful walking away from co-habitation, dating and relationships with women. We realize the game is rigged to our disadvantage, so we choose not to play anymore and focus on making ourselves better versions of what we currently are. There is more to life than just fucking and marriage and kids and the “white picket fence” life.
INCEL’s are bitter and furious that the game is rigged and have stormed off, preferring that the game change so they can enter it again with an advantage in the dating and relationship realm. They want to fuck and are mad they can’t or it’s so much harder to do so in today’s climate.
HUGE DIFFETENCE between the two.
MGTOW is peace, we don’t hate women. We feel sad that both genders have been sold a bad bill of goods on how life works in 1st world cultures, and are walking away from it all to find a better path in life.
This comment got a positive response from the r/MGTOW regulars, earning 22 upvotes.
“Learning to hate women is the best thing to happen to me”
Some months earlier, a MGTOW calling himself ancap-biochemist had a rather different story.
Ever since embracing misogyny my life has become something I can be proud of. My career has taken off, I’m in great shape, my finances are solid, I’m more well rested, better fed, my sexual gratification became better*, I’m more focused, happier, and more philosophically grounded in reality.
. * When I was still sleeping with women (which I’ve made a conscious choice to never do again earlier this month, after a risky ONS) – there was a marginal increase in my enjoyment of sex. When I used to masturbate (I’m also trying the no-fap thing in addition to celibacy, since early this month) it was also more enjoyable with more misogyny.
Mr. ancap-biochemist then took what he called “a quick digression into celibacy/no-fap” that involved discussion of the “sperm retention thing” that I think we can safely skip because ew.
Returning to the topic of hating women – it is the best thing to have happened to me because, I think, that women are a disappointment regarding virtues. They’ve been sold as a panacea for all of men’s ills (she will civilize you, make you food, clean your house, give you a moral foundation, massage your sore muscles, listen to your problems, blah, blah, blah). The Woman TM wonder-drug is like heroine [sic] … pretty soon you’re spending all your time and money supporting a drug habit.
And, make no mistake, love is a drug. Love will blind and stupefy a man into taking a bad deal.
Think about the following; nature endowed men with a survival advantage for using their wits in a hunter-kind-of-way. …
The love-drug lowers a man’s IQ to that of the woman (or lower). All that beautiful women see are idiot men. When the men leave the women they become expert hunters and survivors who have brought nature herself into submission, and cracked the very atoms which constitute the [or “a”] fabric of our material existence. Men are smart, but not around women.
Hating women has reversed that weakness which was required to continue the species.
Hating women has made me a stronger person… because, let’s face it – there’s a lot to hate, and women make you weak. …
Women love powerful men, and fuck them readily… and if a man (unburdened by women) is free to excel due to his natural advantages and without his natural inhibitions … then he becomes the “alpha” male – women reactively lubricate their vaginas and accelerate ovulation toward the man who has become strong thereby, and their husbands become jealous. …
The freedom and strength is too great of a reward not to raise a middle finger toward those cucks and tell their whores to fuck off.
My life is too great to give up. And hate (toward such an ugly thing as woman/white-knights) can be the most healthy response a man can have.
This post also got a positive response from the r/MGTOW regulars, earning 94 upvotes.
In other words, MGTOWs seem to agree that they both don’t hate and do hate women.
Let’s just split the difference and say that they really fucking do hate women.
Sam Harris has also been supportive of The Bell Curve, and insistent that it’s factual science that IQ has a genetic basis. He never follows through to make the racial implications clear, but they exist regardless of his willingness to point them out.
@Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Well, sure, but the NRA people got GUNS, and so they’re not gonna GET murdered by the gun-control terrorists, cuz they’ll shoot them first. So THERE.
The fact that the gun-control people will be unarmed is, of course, irrelevant.
@Weird – “ignollectuals”, LOL, because yes.
I am … seriously beginning to think the whole cognitive dissonance doublespeak thing going on is a feature, not a bug. I listen to the Orange Occupant and I’m not sure if he’s learning from them or that they’re learning from him, but they certainly do seem to speak the same language.
On a slightly more serious note, I am also starting to wonder if that kind of regular confusion under stress and duress scrambles the brain, because there’s certainly research that the kind and constant level of fearmongering that Murdoch allows Faux Noise to do certainly does.
VOX also has an interesting reply to the Bari Weiss cringe-a-thon.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/10/17338290/intellectual-dark-web-rogan-peterson-harris-times-weiss
The author theorizes that these people are getting upset because their anti-multiculturalist ideas — including, but not limited to, the dying notion that science “proves” that white men are naturally more intelligent than women or people of color — are slowly slipping out of mainstream intellectual respectability. White skin + penis no longer = automatic respect for your views.
@Z&T
Oh bravo – good luck and all that. This is going to be fun.
Last time I looked, subscribing to rapey douchey red pill relationship advice was not a political affiliation.
*scampers off to buy popcorn*
@ IBH,
I’m sayin’! And I need some popcorn too! I do have some nacho cheese Doritos 🙂
Ooo, and I think I could whip up a dip to go along with these! 😀
I just went and looked at this RP thread again, and RIGHT out of the gate, LITERALLY the first line from the first comment is:
I’m having a hard time understanding how this red pill coach is a red pill coach.
Oi. WTF?
I guess this must be their “logic”..
A scamper to the dip recipes for me now!
Whether or not you consider Harris right wing in the past he has advocated torture and racial profiling at airports of people who “look Muslim.” Not acceptable at all in my view.
@Sunny Sombrera:
I used to get very anxious about air travel, especially post-911. To me, there’s a negative vibe about airports in general. All those travelers stressing out in one place…flying used to be almost glamorous. Not anymore.
I guess it’s too late in the game for this particular trip, but maybe you could ask your doctor for a prescription for sedatives or tranquilizers. Probably 5 to 10 pills would be enough.
The last time I flew anywhere was 12 years ago, fortunately.
With long car trips, I’m OK as long as I’m the person behind the wheel, and the weather’s good.
Maybe it’s growing up in a city but the masses of harried people at airports don’t get me down too much.
It might also be that I can’t remember the last time I flew out on a trip where I wasn’t incredibly hung over, so it’s like I’ve got this protective black aura of “do not fuck with me right now” swirling around me. the last time I think me and my wife didn’t even go to bed, it was like a 5 am flight and we just went straight in there from the night before. I also feel like everyone at an airport is always at rock bottom so it’s like nobody is going to judge you for anything. In PJ’s? Sleeping standing up? Unwashed & barely got your shit together? You barely stand out from the crowd.
Now, the whole security theater thing does freak me out. No matter how old I get, some part of me is still a 17 year old ne’er-do-well and around police I always have to remind myself that I don’t need to remind myself to act casual, because I’ve literally got nothing to hide.
But for me when the crowds are big enough it stops being a crowd and just becomes… I dunno, an environmental hazard. It’s easier to deal with. All the paths through the crowds are like clearly marked because that’s where the currents of people are flowing, there’s very little negotiating with specific people and what you’re supposed to be doing is a lot more obvious.
Now, all that said? I’d always rather take a car trip. I’m overjoyed when we’re doing a rambling trip through detours and side quests across the countryside.
Aw, I expected better from Sagan. Something like “there is no evidence for the existence of the supernatural” and “there is a preponderance of evidence disproving claims of the supernatural.”
To just redefine supernatural as “something that categorically cannot exist” is intellectually lazy and rhetorically worthless.
It’s like if I defined swans as “aquatic birds with white feathers” and cited this as proof that black swans do not exist.
The idea behind ‘no such thing as the supernatural’ can also be summed up as an inversion of Clarke’s Third Law, to wit: magic is just science we don’t understand yet. That anything that affects the material world is subject to scientific inquiry, and claims of ineffability are functionally equivalent to claims of nonexistence, or at a minimum abdications of thought and inquiry.
@idli sambar revolution
He’s never explicitly come out and said “fuck liberals, lol” but he shares a lot of unpleasant right wing views. He hates Muslims and will support other people who hate them regardless of how awful their other ideas are, he’s a big fan of the idea that people of color are genetically inferior to white people, he doesn’t think women can really be reasonable or rational, he hates black lives matter, he thinks #metoo has gone too far, etc etc. Plenty more awful where that came from.
Fuck Sam Harris.
I can see that. Problem is, the way I’ve seen it used is less “this supernatural thing you claim is not actually supernatural,” and more “this supernatural thing you claim cannot, by definition, exist.”
Hello.
> Paradoxical Intention
Hmm, should Charisma not be how appetizing you look when disguised as a tomato ? Or, better, how appetizing you look as a tomato ?
Just joking, it was both a fun and accurate usage of RP stats !
Speaking of games, here are women coding – more for providing a message than for money (you know, ethics, the thing gamegaters loves to rant about but never actually fight for) – in Afghanistan.
Out of topic, in Soudan, a woman is condemned to death for having killed her husband who was trying to rape her (a second time). It is horribly disgusting, and i fear the comments of we know who.
Have a nice day.
@Dali
Best let someone know you’ve disproved the uncertainty principle. Kinda important, if that doesn’t hold true. 😛
It has to be one of those or the other, is the point. It’s quite common for e.g. creationists , when shown that their claims contradict existing evidence, to say that it’s supernatural, and thus evidence doesn’t matter. Sagan is saying you can’t do this: all claims about reality are subject to the same process of inquiry.
@Shadowplay
Perhaps instead you should examine your understanding of quantum mechanics.
@ Occasional;
Thanx for the Afghan women coding story!
re: Sagan and the definition of supernatural… it’s also kinda like “Dad’s Second Law of Debate Cessation”:
“Why do I hafta?”
“Because I said so!”
Missed the edit window…
While “Dad’s Second Law” may not have affected the Uncertainty Principle, it certainly eliminated any Uncertainty 🙂
@Dalillama:
There’s a sophisticated version of that argument: everything (all observations, to be precise) can be divided into “signal” and “noise”. Anything that has a discernible pattern to it is “signal”, and in principle predictable. The patterns can be expressed mathematically, and that’s where we get things like the equations of general relativity and quantum chromodynamics from.
What’s left over once all patterns have been extracted is the “noise” component, and that part can be modeled statistically as some kind of probability distribution. (Quantum uncertainty means there’s an irreducible level of noise.)
The thing is, there seems to be no room left over for God or other supernatural things here. If it’s part of the signal, it’s susceptible to mathematical modeling and falls under the “natural” rather than “supernatural”. (Even if we don’t yet know it’s part of the signal yet. Lightning was thought to be Thor getting angry … before we discovered Maxwell’s equations.) If it’s part of the noise, seeing God in it is like seeing faces in clouds or hearing voices in TV static: there isn’t really anything meaningful there. That part is just happenstance.
This doesn’t rule out some kind of “meddling” in the Earth’s past, but if there was any, it’s part of the “signal” and has a naturalistic, rather than a supernatural, explanation. If there’s a “god” it’s something explicable, like sufficiently advanced aliens. Most likely there isn’t, as we haven’t found firm evidence of such meddling.
Oh, and if you point out that sometimes there really are voices in TV static, when actual voices in the audio of an adjacent station bleed over, well that just shows that sometimes subtle bits of the signal can initially be mistaken for noise until identified and separated out.
OT (with apologies) but couldn’t help wondering if Alan had seen this …
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/11/striking-lawyers-legal-underfunding
@ opposablethumbs
Thanks for that. As you can imagine it’s a subject (M’learned) friends have been chatting about a lot recently. Publicly funded work is now paying considerably less than minimum wage. Still, that’s the joys of self employment.
Here’s another take on it all; from the coalface.
https://thesecretbarrister.com
A really cynical person would suggest that the UK government has learned things from the junior doctor’s strike, eg. the public tends to blame the strikers, not the people who hold the purse strings. Probably you’re due a string of articles in shitty tabloids claiming to be standing up for the common man, pointing fingers at those greedy, heartless, rich, highly educated professionals who hate desparate poor people.
@Surplus to Requirements
Thank you for that last post, it’s rather ironically the spookiest thing I’ve read in a while.
Woha, this one’s the best analysis I’ve read yet.
So on point, and the best grip on the situation as a whole IMHO.