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Program Note: I will be on Matt Binder’s DOOMED podcast today (Saturday) at 1 PM eastern

I took the graphic for Matt’s show and ran it through a filter that basically made it look worse because why not? I like running things through filters, ok?

It’s PLEDGE DRIVE again. Please DONATE HERE NOW! Thanks!

By David Futrelle

So yeah, I’m going to be on Matt Binder’s podcast talking about, you know, all the sort of shit I write about on this blog. If you’re not a regular listener, you may remember Matt as the guy who sort of demolished Paul Elam in a YouTube debate a couple of years back.

Anyway, here’s the info on the podcast (though the “tomorrow” in the tweet is now today), and if you miss it LIVE you can watch/listen to it later as well:

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Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Congratulations on all the publicity you’re getting lately. I just wish it could be under better circumstances.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

Here are my questions that I will ask again, as when I asked them before they were drowned out by ad hominem and dog piling (which is banned by the comments guidelines, but oh well)

First, let me make this clear: the misogynistic behavior of the reddit/incels, MGTOW, etc are NOT defendable. I am NOT defending their attitudes and behavior and think that sort of thing is disgusting.

Also, yes, it is VERY difficult for women in society and they have issues that I as a man do not face. I am NOT denying that. I don’t have to worry about getting raped on my way to the car, and if a weirdo starts talking to me at the bus stop, I can walk away without fear of them turning pyshco. I don’t have people of the opposite gender trying to legislate my reproductive rights. I agree. Sexism in society is real.

I don’t like the term “male privilege” because being able to go through life without the fears women today face should NOT be a privilege.

And yes, the victims of those two buffoons who came out of reddit/incel did nothing wrong. My absolute sympathy is for their victims. Those “men” were horrible subhumans.

I am simple trying to ask three questions and would like honest answers and please, no name calling or cries of “trolly troll troll troll” that simply make YOU look foolish. With that, I will, against my better judgement, attempt to engage with you in actual constructive dialogue with no insults thrown at anyone who answers (from me at least)

Question 1:
What is the point of this blog? I mean, yes, people who post on those incel blogs act awful. But do you know who else acts awful? Gang bangers. They go out and commit the worst crimes and are a lot WORSE for women and society as a whole than 99.9% of incels who simply type hateful things about women.
Yet, people CORRECTLY point out that many people in the gang lifestyle were suckered in and found there way there because of many issues in their lives. So just having a blog dedicated to saying mean things about gangsters would probably not be a very good way of stopping or changing them, or even raising awareness about them. There is a complex set of issues that put their feet on the road to that lifestyle, even if they ultimately choose to walk it. But here, it is so simplistic and childish.
How is just making fun of incels going to do anything?

Question 2: What would you say to a male who didn’t hate women and did not post on those forums, but just felt absolutely inadequate about not being able to find love? I mean, if a man googles “I am depressed because I can’t find a girlfriend”, it would most likely lead him to a PUA site or a Incel board or something.
If they somehow ended up talking to YOU, what would you say? What would you say to a man who couldn’t find a date, felt he was unattractive, and was all around depressed and feeling like less than dirt?
Thing is, society pressures men to be “sexual conquerors,” and I don’t think anyone can deny that. Men who “can’t get laid” have no value in society and are mocked and ridiculed. Quiet, introverted men are scorned by men and women alike.
So, if not that awful Incel board…what alternative is there for such men? What would YOU tell such a man?

Question 3:
Names. If I had a nickle for every feminists who said “feminism is just about equality…just look it up in the dictionary!” I would be able to bribe Trump to leave office.
But the thing is, feminists themselves want to change the definition of everything.
Example: I got in contact with a Men’s Rights Organization called 1in6 for male survivors of childhood sexual abuse (link: https://1in6.org/ )…and the feminists on this board insist it is not a Men’s Rights Organization when it clearly is. It says in their mission statement: “The mission of 1in6 is to help men who have had unwanted or abusive sexual experiences live healthier, happier lives.”
By the same dictionary that feminists tell me to look up feminism in, we see that they clearly are a MEN’S RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. They are an ORGANIZATION working for the RIGHTS of MEN to get help from childhood sexual abuse.
Do they use that exact phrase in their description? No. But Trump never describes himself as a racist either. His actions speak louder than his works.
As for involuntary celibacy, it is the same issue: it means being CELIBATE INVOLUNTARILY. How is that, in and of itself, make someone a “woman hater”? Plenty of women are also involuntarily celibate.
If I can’t say “feminism is just hatred of men,” because of the dictionary, than you also have to concede that 1in6 is a men’s rights organization and that involuntarily celibacy, in and of itself, is not really an issue.

Also, I want to point this out:

Plenty of men have trouble with relationships, but they look at forums like reddit/incel with the same disgust that I do. I may have compassion for those people posting on reddit/incell for being trapped in their own hatred the same way I feel compassion for gangmembers and drug addicts, but that does not mean I excuse their behavior. Compassion is NOT THE SAME as making excuses.
I also feel compassion for the suicide bomber who grew up starving in Gaza and sees no future and hence would easily blow himself up, but I do not have any sympathy for the act of terrorism.
If someone is so messed up in their head that all they can do is post endlessly about hating women…that person is NOT happy and there is probably some underlining issue there.
And I also have compassion for my Mom who molested me. Yes, what she did was awful. However, I cannot overlook her issues with alcohol and mental health that ended up killing her.

But for the MAJORITY OF MEN WHO HAVE DIFFICULTY with socialization…they are not a problem, and they don’t post on those boards. Yet, I have yet to come across a single shred of compassion for those men who just have actual social issues (which goes back to question 2)
I have issues with intimacy as well…when ones first sexual experience is ones drunken mother forcing herself on you at age nine, that kinda is going to happen. I stumbled across reddit/incel years ago and found them to be awful and just absurd. I am NOT with them.

But does my “involuntary celibacy” or “involuntary loneliness” also mean I am less than dirt? Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

Anyway, I have a distinct feeling I will just have insults thrown at me and no one will actually try any reasonable dialogue. But who knows?

Nequam
Nequam
2 years ago

I keep hearing the whining buzz of an insect. Should I be breaking out the citronella candles?

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

@ Nequam

There are so called “Men’s Rights Activists” who do NOTHING for men but simply hate women and Women’s Liberation. You just gifted them with a perfect screen shot that makes their “points” for them.

Why say something like that? Why dehumanize someone who may disagree with you on some points but does agree on the larger issue that society treats women as second-class citizens and that treatment is wrong? If something as simple as meaningful dialogue with someone as close to many of your positions as I am is impossible, how do you expect to win real social justice for society as a whole?

And after that comment, who appears to be a “troll” here, me or you?
I say that as feedback to your words and NOT an insult to you personally. I believe in repaying scorn with kindness and I know you and most of the users of this board are indeed capable of real thoughtful conversation if they are so inclined.

misophistry
misophistry
2 years ago

PUG. This site does EVERYTHING to differentiate between lonely men and hatefilled misogynists. That is the point of this site. That’s question 1.

Question 2 I would say nothing, lonely men who do not hate women are outside the scope of this blog.

Question 3 isn’t actually a question its a rant, could you distil it for us into a single sentence with a question mark at the end?

As for the insults, considering the content of your three questions you definitely deserved a little ribbing. Why are you here anyway?

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

@misophistry

Thank you for your reply.

First, I do not see anything on this site that differentiates between men with social issues and those who post on “reddit/incell”. Could you please provide a link to back up that statement? I will correct myself if that is proven wrong.

Second, “I would say nothing” is odd. So if a man in your life were to talk about his issues with feeling inadequate, you would answer with silence? If not, what would be the “feminist response” to such a question? (I use quote because I know not all feminists think alike.)

3, it was a simple question that was framed and had examples provided. If “feminism is simply the believe that women are equal because it says so in the dictionary,” then wouldn’t all groups working to help also be called “men’s rights organizations”?

And I do not see what I said in my questions that was sexist, mean-spirited, or hateful. I even made sure to make it clear I sympathize with a lot of what you are saying and I am not in favor or online misogyny.

I am here to see if I can have a dialogue with people I disagree with on a few issues in a polite, rational manner. But I admit, after hearing people call me “troll” and “insect” when I simply tried to be polite and ask a few questions, I am wondering if perhaps this board may have its own issues.

misophistry
misophistry
2 years ago

Looking at the previous threads I see that all your questions have been answered multiple times. Yet you continue.

You are not even interested in the answers, you aim only to disagree.

You have to much time on your hands. I on the other hand, have to go to work.

Bye.

Jo
Jo
2 years ago

@Pug

1) You’re starting from a false premise here. This blog is not just about incels, it covers the whole manosphere and certain aspects of Trumpism as well. There is certainly a lot of mocking, but that’s after the deep digs into the manosphere that David does, finding and examining the beliefs of MRAs, PUAs, incels, MGTOW etc. So you’re asking what the point of the blog is, based on two faulty assumptions, firstly that it’s about incels and secondly that it’s only about mocking. If you’re going to argue that a blog is pointless, you need to demonstrate a solid understanding of its purpose.

Your concern about gang-related crime is admirable, but sounds like whataboutism. Maybe you are genuinely engaged with this issue, rather than using it as a rhetorical device to try to change the subject, but the onus is then on you to demonstrate your deep engagement with the issues of gang-related crime and its relevance to this blog.

As for your point about the value of mocking gang members for their beliefs, I’m not aware of a concerted online culture that attempts to mainstream gang thinking and radicalise gang members online. I’m sure there are videos and forums and Facebook groups that promote gang membership, but they are reflections of gang activity, not the core of it. The manosphere mostly gathers and develops online, so exposing it online makes perfect sense.

2) I talk to men like this quite a lot, actually. What I say to them depends on the individual, so I can’t give a simple prescription here. However, very often it starts off by pointing out the logical flaws in what they say about themselves and the world. I might then give advice that includes exercise, self-reflection, changing life circumstances, therapy, self-improvement, getting rid of unhelpful attitudes etc.

I would agree with you that men like this are ill-served for places to find help. One consequence of toxic masculinity is that men are expected to not express many normal feelings and that men do not learn to support each other emotionally. The rise in the incel movement can be partly explained by the fact that they address male depression – in a vile, dangerous and twisted way, of course, but they do provide a space where men can express strongly negative emotions about themselves and not be shamed for weakness.

3) Personally, I would concede that that ‘just look it up in the dictionary’ is not a great argument when it comes to judging a movement, so that’s not a line I would use myself when talking about feminism or anything else. When we refer to the Men’s Rights movement here, we are talking about a particular political approach, rather than any group which helps men. For example, a group devoted to stopping the practice of ‘stop and search’ which disproportionately affects men (young black men) would be fighting for Men’s Rights but it would not be helpful to call it a Men’s Rights group because that name refers to something else.

Finally, I can tell that you are hurting a great deal inside. However, I’m not sure this comment section is a great place for you to work through your issues. That’s not judgemental of you or comments here, they’re just not a good match. If you want to continue this discussion elsewhere, feel free to leave a throwaway email address or reddit username or some other way of getting in touch with you. I’d be happy to talk with you elsewhere.

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
2 years ago

Hi@Pug

If you go back to the previous thread you’ll see that I made a couple of points and asked a couple of questions that you ignored. Other people have made points you ignored.

As I said before, if you want us to debate you, you need to listen to what we say and respond respectfully. You are not doing that – you’re dumping a load of feelings, then coming back and dumping another load of feelings. That’s why people are calling you a troll. Because you’re acting like one.

I would also like to add that – just like you’re saying not all incels are the same – not all people who call themselves “feminists” are the same. There are some other feminists I completely disagree with and would cross the road to avoid. So please don’t give examples of people who are not part of this forum posting things on other sites as “evidence” of how we “hate men”.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Pug

Furthering what Jo said regarding your question 1, and to correct a misapprehension you seem to be under:

– set aside a few hours.
– go to the sidebar and look for the drop down box called “Old Crap.”
– go as far back as you feel like and start reading. Far as I recall, incels don’t even get mentioned here much before yon Rodger asshole killed folk because he were an entitled little shit.

This will show you two things – the blog doesn’t exist to mock incels but to track and mock ALL forms of rampant misogyny, and that there is a need for these fools to be mocked. Nothing punctures pretension like laughter, and their “justifications” for their crap are often funny.

Regarding the compassion/excuses thing – while I do agree with you, I’m not being threatened with death by these tools for merely existing though. So I’m not going to disrespect the people here who don’t. Might want to think on that some, too. If someone says they want you dead – it’s wise to assume they mean it.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

@Pug:

If this blog is so “pointless”, why do so many people come here?

Ashara Payne
Ashara Payne
2 years ago

Pug
I was tempted to reply to you but I’m not a regular commenter here and others have said pretty much what I’d have said anyway.
After my husband cheated on me and left me ten years ago I was unable to find a partner for many years. I was depressed and miserable. Sure there were men on dating sites who wanted casual sex but I didn’t. I could write a book about the awful experiences with awful men on dating sites. I had nowhere really to go to look for support other than the awesome captain awkward who did actually help. Lucky I found her.

I did meet someone eventually but far from perfect: I had to significantly change my attitude and behaviour and my expectations. Maybe someone online CAN help men without all the nastiness. I found a couple of men who offer advice to women that is sensible: Evan Mark Katz and Matthew Hussey. All the rest take the harmful stereotypes about men and women and run with them and want to charge you for the privilege!

You really are in the wrong place imo. Try xyonline.net or somewhere similar. Or ask for advice from people who actually are in a happy relationship. I’d be happy to discuss things further with you elsewhere also, but I’m not sure here is the right place

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Jo

Your concern about gang-related crime is admirable, but sounds like whataboutism.

Sounds more like racist dogwhistling to me. I am utterly unsurprised that Pug is blowing it.

Jo
Jo
2 years ago

@Dalillama

Yeah, I thought about addressing the racial issue there, but my comment was already too long. Gang-related violence is also rather specific to certain geographical areas, whereas misogyny is a problem almost everywhere, but if I had listed every way in which the comparison breaks down I’d never have got onto questions 2 and 3.

TreePerson
TreePerson
2 years ago

I’m going to predict a lot of non-engagement and reiteration of 101 questions which have been given long detailed answers followed by a flounce or banning as bad faith questions are spammed along multiple threads.

Prove me wrong PUG I genuinely want you too invalidate my prediction.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ pug

insist it is not a Men’s Rights Organization when it clearly is.

You were asked to provide any examples of where 1 in 6 themselves have claimed to be a men’s rights organisation. You have failed to do so. You have also failed to provide any examples of where 1 in 6 even talk about men’s rights.

Instead, and contrary to all evidence, you merely state that it self-evidently is. I would however suggest you are wrong. It’s a fine organisation, and does much to help men. However support organisations are not necessarily rights organisations.

To give what might seem a trite, but hopefully clear, example. There are two particular organisations I support. One is a donkey sanctuary. It provides care and support for animals; but that’s it. The other is called SPANA. That’s an organisation concerned with the welfare of working animals. It facilitates practical support and help for animals. However it also campaigns for better conditions for working animals through education and legislation.

I think SPANA can justifiably be called an animal rights organisation, whereas the donkey sanctuary can’t. Do you see the distinction?

Eärwen
Eärwen
2 years ago

After some long comments,oh my gosh…. (facepalm)
We should read the incel article (I try to find the podcast) as it is.

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

About PUGsquestions:
1. Making people aware of of problem that exist. Giving readers a sense that they aren’t alone. Point out horrible behavour of human beeings. Give people who are hurt of them a place where they can talk. Make people less likly to join because who wants to be among idiots. And last but not least to give people somethink to laugh at because that makes the villains less dangerous.
(Just on the top of my head, others can probably post more)

2. If they aren’t making a wrong first impresion:
“Welcome, have a cookie.”
Sorry, but I think there a quite a few regulars here that fit that discription. I disagree btw that a man has to be x or a woman has to be y, that is one of the big problems of society.

3. The problem here is that words can chance meanings and there is a lot of bad thinks that define themselve as Men’s Right Organisations. You are talking about a group that wants to help victims of a crime (here exspecially male victims). From what I get (from only reading coments here not doing any resarch) they are in good terms with groups that work for female victims.
What people here want is to difference between something like 1in6, who are doing somethink great and helpful and groups that are there to harm women.
To goal of the posters here is clear: Don’t get 1in6 in a pot with MRO, because that either harm the organisation that is helpful or gives some evil people cover.

About Feminism: Yepp, dictionarys are not a great way to define movements. But you were talking with people how the definite themselves. There is a difference.
Are there some people who discrip themselves as feminist and post stuff that is anti-men, yes. There is a danger there that people got into extrems.

MAJORITY OF MEN WHO HAVE DIFFICULTY with socialization…

are not the topic of this blog. On of the topics is that getting into incels or listening to Pickupartist won’t help them with their problems.
The incelcomunity only makes them worse.
The Pickupartist will help them only to get one-night-stands (and often only if they don’t care about consent)

A good lasting relationship or getting happy are not what one can get from this areas, they make the problem worse.

I apload you that you feel compesion for those people, will make one point:
Some of those post make that really difficult. Like in “I am happy, I have never meet you, I would be very afraid of you, and I not even one of the persons you hate.” kind of way.
It is also more easy to feel compesion to someone you know, we see only the posts, not the person.
Personally I am not feeling anythink for the milder posts. But anyone who has fantasys about killing people the don’t even know, makes me angry. I try to stay calm, but sorry those postings make them …

Sorry this post took a long time (had somethink else to do) so it will be ninjad a lot.

Otrame
Otrame
2 years ago

It occurs to me that many incels started out by reading PUA sites for advice on how to get laid. At those sites they learned how to act like a creep, but they also got the misogyny that underlies the whole PUA ideology.

And when the special tricks that will get anyone laid outlined on those sites fail spectacularly, the schmucks decide that there is something “unloveable” about them, but also that it is because women are evil and only care about looks, forgetting that 1. it’s the PUAs who only care about looks 2. the PUA sites that promised a particular “method” would always get a guy laid might possibly be lying through their teeth and 3. Treating women like they are only useful for fucking doesn’t actually get you anywhere with women.

So, for PUG, I have some advice. You want to stop being lonely? Try making some friends. People to hang out with. Join a group that is all about a hobby of yours. Volunteer somewhere. Even go to a bar (not the best choice). While there, try talking with women as if they are human beings. Don’t use “tricks”, just talk to them. And, here is a really big secret way to entice any woman: actually LISTEN to what they say. That will make you stand out from the crowd right away. When you find a woman you actually LIKE, ask her out. No promises. She may not like you back, or she may have been badly treated by some asshole and is gun shy. If you really like her, accept the rejection and go on being her friend. Friends help with the loneliness thing even without sex.

Don’t limit yourself to women who are slender and pretty. You want a friend, not a masturbation fantasy. Try to avoid slobbering on them. The point is to make friends. Sex might or might not come later, because, while women sometimes only want sex, that is not especially common for women. Most women want companionship, a friend, and yeah, maybe some sex.

Of course this assumes that you actually want to not be lonely. “Not be lonely” doesn’t mean having sex whenever you want with whomever you want.

I hate to tell you this, but women learn to recognize a guy who only wants to get their dick wet from across a crowded room. Most women aren’t into being used like a blow-up doll, so if all you want is sex, you probably won’t get any. But of course, if all you want is sex, you have a solution that is always with you. Assuming you have at least one hand.

There are a lot of women, a LOT of women, who are lonely too. They may not look like those porn stars you like to watch (but then, you aren’t exactly Chris Helmsworth, now are you), but they are real women who would love to be friends with a man. And, yeah, I do mean friends with benefits. Also try to remember that most women, after they get out of their teens, don’t care as much about looks as you do. So all is not lost.

Bonelady
Bonelady
2 years ago

What Pug is doing is called “sea lioning”, asking seemingly simple questions. The problem is that Pug will then ask more questions, once his original questions are answered. He will want terms defined and will argue over the definitions. He will move goalposts. His goal ideally is to have the whole forum focused on him. Ignore him.

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Bonelady
When we’re bored with chewing on him, or he crosses a line too far, I’m sure he’ll be banned. In the meantime, folks will have their goes at him for the benefit of others who may be reading. It’s how things are done here.

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

But does my “involuntary celibacy” or “involuntary loneliness” also mean I am less than dirt? Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

Nobody owes you sex or companionship.

If you want to reclaims terms like “men’s rights” or “incel” from those who enthuse about misogyny, abuse, rape and murder of women, perhaps you should start by visiting the forums of the manosphere, and maybe asking them to tone it down a bit. If you’re not prepared to do that, then maybe you should distance yourself from those brands. 1in6 don’t call themselves a “men’s rights organisation” for a pretty good reason, I’d say.

And seriously, dude. This site quotes fucking awful people saying (and doing) fucking awful things. If you cannot be differentiated from those fucking awful people, then maybe you should perhaps be less fucking awful. If you’re not fucking awful, then there’s no danger of you being mistaken for the subject of this blog. Unless you go around loudly saying “I’m an incel”, which, y’know, nobody is making you do.

(also, it would behoove you to not come into a fairly feminist space and complain about how feminists aren’t doing enough for men. that seldom goes down well. have a think about why)

Tashi Licious
2 years ago

David why do none of my comments post what did I do 🙁

Oh sure THIS one does now what the heck >(

Pie
Pie
2 years ago

Oh, Pug’s post is just regurgitated from the last thread he joined in, presumably after he decided that he didn’t like any of the answers he got and thought he might do better the second time around.

Probably not worth engaging with even for fun; too self-absorbed. Trolly troll troll troll indeed.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

uuugh.

Okay, fine. You want to pick up stakes and move to a cleaner pasture now that the last one’s churned to mulch? Instead of dealing with the hard work of dealing with the consequences there? Sure, let’s sully another green field.

I was nice to you in the last thread. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I will answer your questions, though my responses will likely be more terse than they were before. And then, when I’m done answering, I’ll have Questions Three for you. I hope that you will show me equal consideration in answering them.

Off to Notepad++ with me.

Jo
Jo
2 years ago

Hi Pug.

I hadn’t seen any of your previous comments when I replied to you. I assumed you were writing in good faith, with a real desire to learn more about the views of people who read this blog.

Did you fool me? Did you persuade me to reply as if a genuine dialogue and learning experience were possible? Were you all the time only interested in finding ways to catch people out, to score rhetorical points?

If so, I don’t care. That just makes you background noise. I’ve tried before to reach out to people who turned out to be unreachable and it hasn’t changed my approach. (Others assume trolls unless proven otherwise and that’s an approach I respect.)

If you are indeed genuine, then please try hard to prove it by showing you’re listening and engaging with others.

As with many things in life, the ball is in your court.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

What is it with sad boner trolls and their rock solid conviction that every feminist space should dedicate itself to giving men dating or hook up advice.

No, Pug. Mocking misogyny is not a privilege contingent on providing alternate support groups for lonely men.

Maybe you’re lonely because you have the expectation that the whole world should revolve around you and people don’t really like being around people like that? Just a thought.

Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

We’ve stated again and again that David only mocks misogynists. Not men in general. Not non-misogynist men who simply lonely. If you see yourself in the men that David mocks, perhaps the problem is not this blog. Perhaps the problem is you. Because most men don’t see virulent misogynists being criticized and mocked and take it personally. Most men think these people are ridiculous too.

Sounds more like racist dogwhistling to me. I am utterly unsurprised that Pug is blowing it.

Given that in the other thread he said black people should befriend KKK members and show them compassion, I’m not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt either.

LeeshaJoy
LeeshaJoy
2 years ago

@Pug:

If this blog is so “pointless”, why do so many people come here?

More to the point, if this blog is so “pointless,” why is Pug here?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Tashilicious,

Sometimes there’s a weird glitch where posts just disappear into thin air. If you copypaste, the same thing will happen. Try copying and pasting but then adding in a new sentence at the top post like “trying again, the last post disappeared.”

If it went into moderation, you might have accidentally typed your usual name wrong. Or perhaps you quoted someone using a slur and it got caught in the filter?

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

Of topic: Coming from an inclusive theatreplay right now (only as watcher), was fun.
And more of the alley, there was work about a conservative network, read the report about it here:
https://www.epfweb.org/sites/epfweb.org/files/rtno_epf_book_lores.pdf

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

Should say it was an european network, found out about it in an article in the TAZ (a German Newspaper)

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

First, your three questions

Question 1:
What is the point of this blog? I mean, yes, people who post on those incel blogs act awful. But do you know who else acts awful? Gang bangers. They go out and commit the worst crimes and are a lot WORSE for women and society as a whole than 99.9% of incels who simply type hateful things about women.
[…]
How is just making fun of incels going to do anything?

You’re right that this blog doesn’t help people that have been pulled into the Incel orbital system. That’s not what it’s about, though; it’s not here to help them. This site is primarily about providing a relief valve and support group for the targets of their hate.

Y’know, women. Those targets.

Ever heard the phrase, “laugh about it to keep from crying?” That’s what’s going on here.

Like, the previous article was about a guy writing about how great it is to stalk women and girls to terrify them with the threat of rape. How fun it is, and how harmless it is.

Perhaps you boggle at how evil that is? I suspect you might.

Likely the majority of us just sort of get a tired glaze over our eyes at that story, because it ain’t new. Just part of the daily routine. We laugh at it and tease about it because we’re sick and tired of being afraid or angry.

You want to take that from us? Molon fucking labe. “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”

This blog also serves to raise awareness of these hateful people. David often writes serious articles; those articles are important, and are the reason he’s now considered an expert on these horrible groups.

Question 2: What would you say to a male who didn’t hate women and did not post on those forums, but just felt absolutely inadequate about not being able to find love? I mean, if a man googles “I am depressed because I can’t find a girlfriend”, it would most likely lead him to a PUA site or a Incel board or something.
[…] So, if not that awful Incel board…what alternative is there for such men? What would YOU tell such a man?

A good question! Society absolutely does pressure men to be sexual conquerors, and hurts him if he can’t at least pretend. (Though, Patriarchy allows him to cover for that with other sorts of success. Still. That’s beside the point.)

I’d tell him that the heart of his issue is the same system that hurts everyone else. That he’s been told a lie his entire life, and he’s been brought up to believe things that are just wrong – just like everyone else has.

And then I’d tell him that relationships don’t cure any of that; they’re certainly not a cure for depression. That he’s gotta get over that hill before he can climb the next. There are piles of counseling services, depression support groups, etc, out there. I’d try to help him find one local, because depression support groups really need that human contact part of them to be functional.

But most of these guys don’t want to hear that they need to fix themselves first, that the problem isn’t about dating. Because they want to externalize the problem, and – guess what – they’ve already primed themselves to believe that the problem is women won’t date me.

Patriarchy sucks.

Question 3:
Names. If I had a nickle for every feminists who said “feminism is just about equality…just look it up in the dictionary!” I would be able to bribe Trump to leave office.
But the thing is, feminists themselves want to change the definition of everything.
[…]
If I can’t say “feminism is just hatred of men,” because of the dictionary, than you also have to concede that 1in6 is a men’s rights organization and that involuntarily celibacy, in and of itself, is not really an issue.

Another great question! You make good points here, but you’re missing something, mostly about how words work and change.

It’s true that for many people “feminist” just means “women who hate men.” We can say “no, that’s not true” because there are a lot of us. We have the mass and voice to contest that definition as a social group. If we were some small niche we wouldn’t be in a position to confront the popular (and wrong) definition ’cause there wouldn’t be enough of us to do it. At that point, we could still try to reclaim the word, but we’d have to go into every conversation knowing that the common use of the word isn’t what we want, and then deal with that.

Your situation is different from both of those. “Men’s Rights Organization” and “Incels” are labels owned by groups – and you’re claiming that your group should have those labels. You’re representing the larger super-groups of “organizations who represent men” and “anyone who wants to have sex but isn’t getting any” and are claiming that those groups deserve the labels.

But those aren’t coherent social groups. They have no unified social purposes or goals. MRAs and Incels do, and they’re the ones using the term, and they have the social mass to keep those terms.

It doesn’t matter what you think the words should mean to society, what matters is what they do mean and whether you’re in a position to change that.

You’re a guy standing in the middle of the Charlottesville Alt-Right March/Riot, getting angry at being called a Nazi. You’re standing under their flag, dude! There it is, right there! The Confederate flag isn’t about history or southern pride, it’s f’n slavery! That guy beside you is wearing a white supremacist arm-band! Get out of there!

Words are messy. You can’t just look at the dictionary definition of a word to apply it. Incels are a hate group. Ditch the term, or get enough people on your side to wrestle it out of the hands of those people. What you’re doing here is just choosing the course of action which lets you stay angry at us.

Your follow-up from the questions

Plenty of men have trouble with relationships, but they look at forums like reddit/incel with the same disgust that I do.

Yep, we know. Some of them even post here!

but that does not mean I excuse their behavior. Compassion is NOT THE SAME as making excuses.

ahem

You’re using their name, my duck. And coming onto a feminist forum, telling us how evil we are for not being nice to them as they fantasize about throwing acid on our faces.

You come here telling us that “not all incels are like that,” while you’re using the term Incels in your own questions, unadorned to talk about those murder-fantasists, knowing that we would understand the group you were talking about.

You know the term refers to that group. You use it that way.

At the same time you’ve been arguing that the term refers to anyone who’s celibate but would rather not be.

You aren’t making excuses for them, you’re providing cover. Whether you intend to or not.

Yet, I have yet to come across a single shred of compassion for those men who just have actual social issues (which goes back to question 2)

Given how you waded in here? I don’t think you’ve looked very hard.

This isn’t a men’s support group; men hold the power as a group in this patriarchal system so expecting women to help or even do more than shrug is asking the victim to help the abuser. Even so, we do talk about male problems, the sort of things that might help them, etc.

Maybe if you came here with the intention of listening instead of shouting you might have picked up on that. It’s absolutely here. Both in the articles and in the comments. It just doesn’t tend to come up at the same time as discussing the murders and harassment that misogynists commit, because tut-tutting about the hard life of the abuser while the victims are still in need is a little, uh, gauche.

But does my “involuntary celibacy” or “involuntary loneliness” also mean I am less than dirt? Because this site does NOTHING to differentiate between men who are simply lonely and men who are on those awful forums, that is a conclusion that can and does easily get drawn.

Gosh, that strawman sure did get demolished.

I’m over here, though.

Incel is a coherent, vocal group featuring misogyny and entitlement. Because the vast majority of people who use that term belong to that group. People who are just lonely don’t call themselves Incel, they call themselves lonely.

You’re choosing to use “Incel” to describe yourself. You could choose another word, you know. Like, even, as an aside here – there’s something inherently misogynistic about the word itself. “Involuntary” Celibacy. Casts the celibacy as a punishment, like Involuntary Confinement. And the only group that could possibly enforce that punishment is women – mean, nasty women who are too stuck up to give the poor guy a shot.

I know you don’t mean it that way, but that’s an implication of the words chosen. Something involuntarily happening to you that you don’t like is a punishment.

You could choose another word and avoid all this, you know. There are good ones. You used some. Or you could stay up on that cross, I’m sure the view is lovely.

I am here to see if I can have a dialogue with people I disagree with on a few issues in a polite, rational manner. But I admit, after hearing people call me “troll” and “insect” when I simply tried to be polite and ask a few questions, I am wondering if perhaps this board may have its own issues.

No you didn’t.

See, we can go back and read your first comment. You came here with the opinion that we’re a man-hater’s club, and what’s more, you came here with the opinion that we were so set in our misandristic ways that we couldn’t have our mind changed. But now that we’re actually having a discussion, you want to seem like you’re the reasonable one and we’re the ones being angry, so you edit that out.

You came in here already primed and ready to call us evil, irrational, and mean – of course we’re gonna call you a troll. ’cause you’re being a jerk.

I’ll have some questions for you shortly. I hope you answer them.

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

Shorter pug=

What about teh menz!!!

Pug likes to write but he doesn’t care to read. Cause if he did, he would know where to take his bullshit argument.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Scild

Total, jaw dropped admiration.

Jesalin
Jesalin
2 years ago

Pug
May 4, 2018 at 2:08 pm

Okay, I’m reading this blog for the first time and frankly, I find it appalling how outright misandristic it is. But hey, hating on men gets the clicks and hence the cash, so why not?

And also, not even all incels online are like that.

#notallincels

Oh gosh yes, sure looks polite and rational to me. /s

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Answer now my questions three, else the banhammer ye see

Question One

You’ve pointed out in great detail how much compassion you have, and how important it is to have compassion. How you empathize with the men trapped in the Incel world in the same way as you empathize with terrorists who feel trapped with violence being the only way out.

Why is it that your empathy doesn’t also extend to the people that the incels are targeting with their hate, abuse, and violence? You know, us? Because if you claim that you feel empathy for us, you sure as heck haven’t showed it, and compassion that isn’t visible isn’t compassion at all.

They wish murder and mutilation on us. We just point at the things they say and mock them. Why do you think the former deserves empathy and the latter deserves condemnation?

You showed up here, angry and full of opinions on how awful we are – an arrival you’ve tried to recast as “rational and polite” now that we’re talking. Why? Why did you assume that they deserved empathy and we didn’t?

Question Two

We’ve spent a lot of this argument on semantics- whether words mean their dictionary definition or whether they have more complexity to them. But you know you’re wrong here. You use the word “Incels” to refer to that misogynistic band of hatred, you know it’s the functional description for that group. You use the term “reddit/incel” in places as if to make some sort of greater clarity, but that makes it worse – “Incels Without Hate” is on reddit, and you’re throwing them in with the hateful group, even though the Incels have been thrown off of reddit! Calling them “reddit/incels” just muddies the water.

You know you’re wrong on this, your word choices give you away. The moment we stop talking about the semantics of the words, you use them in the common way.

Question two is: can we drop the stupid semantics argument already? You know we aren’t talking about all-people-who-aren’t-having-sex-but-would-like-to when we talk about Incels, you know we aren’t talking about all-groups-that-support-men when we talk about MRAs.

Question Three

I’m just gonna point you to WWTH’s excellent question for number three:

Why is incel a straight male thing? Are straight men the only ones who are socially awkward and can’t find a date? If yes, why? If no, why are you appropriating a term invented by a woman to exclude women and non-straight men from support and help? If incel was about helping and supporting lonely people and not misogyny, why is it men only? Why haven’t women, if we supposedly are the only ones allowed to have safe spaces in this cruel misandric world setting up an equivalent movement? Don’t take one part of my question out of context on purpose and then act outraged when you’re seen as a troll and not someone here in good faith.

To clarify and save you having to dig through the old thread for context: Incels, the hate-group, are all men. Why haven’t women set up an equivalent group about hating men? Why’s Incel just for men, when women can be lonely too?

(Hint: Incel isn’t about not-having-sex)

Please consider answering these questions. They’re good questions, both for you and for the conversation in general.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

awh thank you Shadowplay <3

Shadowplay
2 years ago

General question – on topic too! –

How’d the podcast go? Or am I screw up time zones again?

Edit:

@Scild – I always get a mental image of you slowly and deliberately taking off a pair of gloves then cracking your knuckles before you type these answers. 🙂

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Podcast is currently on!

And that’s probably an appropriate mental image 😉

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

from the live comment feed

DrGalazkiewicz​Matt – unfortunately you look like Roosh a little!

MatthewBinder​the worst thing anyone has ever said to me

Grumblefloof​That’s the worst thing anyone’s ever said to anyone

Monica Odriozola​No dude

Grumblefloof​At least when I look into Matt’s eyes, I see a human soul.

walej​Matt is very facile in handling the chat while not missing a beat with the interview. Unlike the MGTOW who are very clumsy at it.

Draagonslayer19​hmmm now o need to look up this Roosh to see if I can cosign the Binder is Roosh theory

Because all brown guys look alike?

Binder looks nothing like Roosh. Not even remotely.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

@Pug
As a man I find you whiny and annoying. As others have said your questions were answered in the other thread but you pretend they weren’t, so I find you whiny and a discussion partner of poor quality. Relatedly I note you used the word misandry with things pointing to subsets of men in the previous post. You’re giving people no reason to want to respond beyond posts aimed at the audience instead of you.
But also as others have said this place role-moldels for others and spreads information which answers your #1. That’s the point. Like it or not incels are spreading awfulness and violence with respect to women and the site is about pointing it out and refusing to be respectful towards them. Don’t like it? Don’t want to feel associated with that?Pick a new name and organize with that. As a man it looks like you would rather tolerate shitty behavior in your social associations and want others to stop pointing them out which is a weakness I don’t let slide without shaming of people like you.

Per your #2 It’s not this David’s or the commentators job to #notalllonelymen when discussing incels that have awful behavior. If you don’t like people with such behavior associated with you that’s your problem to deal with and your work to organize a social space to deal with instead of trying to change this one to suit your needs so it comes up in a Google search of all things. I feel no desire associate with the label of incel as a man who wants sex and find your language sensitivity childish to say the least. Problematic political associations is a thing you should have the basic human maturity to recognize and deal with. Shunning of the worst elements of ones percieved in-group bto show disapproval is as rational and natural as women and female people shunning them out of a sense of self-preservation.
It is also not David’s or the commentators job to provide sympathy or help to #notalllonelymen and I say that as a man that could fit into a tangentally related category. This place supports a different part of the broader social problem and I choose to help it without feeling threatened by the bad associations that WE SHOULD FEEL AS MEN. Guess who the incels are more likely to respond to? Us, fellow men refusing to accept their bullshit. We have in-group advantage and it’s our job to work on them, not the people the they socially foment hate and violence towards (separate social component from social shunning of the group with bad behavior, done by separate men. I’m unapologetically in the shaming wing).
The people here don’t have to do shit for you and in fact making women and other female people do work for others is a part of the problem I refuse to enable.

Per your #3 it’s also not the job of people here to educate you on feminism 101 related things as such education is not part of this space. If people here choose to be nice and educate you be polite and actually interact with the substance of their replies (they’re still giving you a chance despite less politeness so you can turn this around if you choose to). If you continue to avoid substantive responses to them you get what you deserve and the men here won’t come to your rescue, we’re more likely to join in because that’s part of what this social space is all about.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

listening now. so you guys bring up the fact that Elam isn’t biting the alt right/white nationalist bait like Molyneux. Elam and AVfM were the ones who, which I posted earlier elsewhere, were accusing white women feminists of racism for supposedly being the demographic least likely to date/marry outside of race, statistically. those posts and comments were head-scratchers. never quite got the point they were trying to make considering so much of their other rhetoric was about their “own women” rejecting them, doing them wrong, divorcing them, etc.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

Monica Odriozola​I like how by just clicking on this video I am getting recommended a bunch of antifeminist videos.

Grumblefloof​So it’s not just me, then

Monica Odriozola​like every single recommendation.

Grumblefloof​Usually, when I click on some social justice content, the recommendations are like 50-60% alt-right bullshit. This time it’s 100%.

Yep! Here’s my recommends. Notice the Ted Bundy one. (!!!???)

The Red Man Group on 21 Live Episode #11
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idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

LOL @ “Chad Thundercock”. I remember Dalrock and his posse had some pretty hilarious names for what they conceived were the “alpha f*cks” wives were cuckolding their “beta bucks” husbands with.

I think one was Chad McJock or McAlphacock or something. And then Obsidian had his Miss Ann and Tyrone. Ahhh the manosphere, the gift that keeps on giving.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

from the comment feed;

Grumblefloof​You can make it maybe 3 posts deep into any thread on any incel board before they start suggesting that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote. It’s really not about just being lonely.

And there are Indian incels saying the same thing despite that women had the vote in India from Day 1 of the formation of the country i.e. it was never up for debate. And its not like Indian women need any less right than they already have FFS! Consider the sex selective abortions (happened in my extended family, she was literally forced by her in-laws to get a sonogram to determine sex and then abort because female, happens all the time) and arranged marriages, forced living with in-laws and other factors that work against Indian women and in favor of men.

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

epitome of privilege

telling women, the targets of terrorist acts by incels, that we should be MORE COMPASSIONATE.

go

fuck

yourself

Pug

end of story.

And yes, if you are calling yourself incel, you’re a piece of shit for
intentionally aligning yourself with them. I don’t associate myself with the KKK because I’m interested in the history of my southern roots.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

David, Matt just explained how white supremacists are out engaging in the world socially and it’s likely that most of us are working alongside at least one on the job. But with incels they don’t get out and interact, they remain isolated in their rooms, online with their incel communities only.

I don’t know where he’s getting this idea from? What makes him think incels aren’t also on the job and right alongside us in the social and work sphere? Ellen Pao recently tweeted

CEOs of big tech companies: You almost certainly have incels as employees. What are you going to do about it?

Jo
Jo
2 years ago

Can someone please post some non-YouTube links – ideally something that I can put into podcast manager / podcatcher type software?

I’m in a rush right now or I’d do it myself.

Wondering
Wondering
2 years ago

Pug.

To your second question, if you’re actually interested in getting advice about dating and not just playing Gotcha, I would send you over to the Dr Nerdlove blog. He’s been writing this week about incels, as well, but you can look up advice in the archives, and you can send in your own questions, too.

http://www.doctornerdlove.com

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