By David Futrelle
On Reddit’s IncelTears — a subreddit devoted to mocking and critiquing the toxic incel subculture — someone claiming to be a former incel has posted an account of their escape from inceldom. It’s a throwaway account, but the story he tells seems pretty convincingly true to me.
“In the wake of the horrific events in Toronto,” he begins,
I wanted to share some of my experiences as a former incel, and how I eventually changed my behaviors to become a better person.
Being an incel is awful, it’s an awful predicament, with an unhelpful community to back it up. Often when people describe an incel, the general description is “Involunaty Celebate”, someone who can’t get girls, etc. This is the most glaring issue and the one bought up by the community but it isn’t the only issue in most cases.
When a guy can’t get a girl to save his life there’s usually some undelying social issue at play and that issue has an affect on that individuals entire social life, not just the intimate aspect. You don’t feel important, you don’t feel valued. This starts to play on your self esteem and is partially to explain for the very self-hate low IQ trodding nature of the community.
Unfortunately, the incel “community” only makes this self-hate worse.
The community’s biggest problem is that it does nothing to fix the problem and only goes to reinforce ones already held beliefs. So you’re someone who can’t get a girl, shunned from society (to various degrees) and you go online to find people like you, and when you get there you find false explanations for your problems and an echo chamber of your ideas.
You confide in this group and as a result, you start to inherit some of that group think and ideas. These ideas don’t help you in the real world but rather make things worse, it’s a downward spiral.
So what was it that led him to start questioning incel dogma — and eventually extract himself from this morass? As he explained in a followup comment, he literally got off of incel forums and into the real world, where he quickly found that most of what the incels say about men and women and dating and pretty much everything is just plain wrong.
One of the things I did was get out there, almost in a literal sense.
When I was an incel I never went out. I had never been in a bar, never been to a club, I didn’t know that life in the slightest. So when I went online it was very easy to believe the things you read about bars/clubs/women/chads/stacies/etc because I had no comparison in the real world to call bullshit on one way of the other. The first time I went out to a bar, 20 minutes in and getting a drink I saw a guy, probably 3 inches shorter and twice as round sitting in the VIP section with a bunch of hot girls nearby. Seeing that shattered by worldview because according to the incel community, that guy was doing something that was fucking impossible in their eyes.
I’m not sure that the VIP section of a nightclub is what I’d call a representative sample of reality, but it’s certainly the case that the easiest way to challenge many of the central myths of incel is to simply open your eyes to the evidence all around you in the real world, where you’ll find men of all sizes, shapes, heights, and ages happily paired off with women of all sizes, shapes, heights and ages. You have to be willfully blind to believe that women won’t date short men, or men with improperly angled eyebrows, or men with inappropriately sized wrists (and yes, these are real incel beliefs).
The former incel continues:
After that I kept going out and every time I went out there was always something different, not a single night was the same. Always different characters, different situations, different interactions. I started to see that there wasn’t just one pre-disposed type of person to get a particular girl and I learned that anything could happen, literally anything.
Yep.
I’ve been thrown out of a bar on to the street only to be invited to an afterparty 5 minutes later, I’ve gotten harshly rejected by a girl in front of her boyfriend only for her to run back to me before the bar closes and give me her number. I was in the corner of a bar talking to a girl telling her about where I was from before some drunk guy decided to roundhouse kick me because he thought I was lying about my nationality (that a was fun night). Countless upon countless situations where I’ve walked out of it going “what the fuck just happened”
I guess this is one possible escape from incel. But you don’t have to get into bar fights or get invited to any afterparties — or even set foot in a nightclub at all — to see that incels live inside a collective delusion that only vaguely resembles life on this planet.
Overall, it was just replacing the knowledge I had acquired from places like incel subreddits and forums with real-world experience. You can read PUA and incel forums all day long and get two totally different ideas of nightlife, or you can go out and get another idea entirely.
Yep. All it requires is that you just GET OUT of the incel subculture for a short time — whether you literally start going to nightclubs or simply free yourself from incel thinking long enough to see that what the incels are telling you is wrong, wrong, wrong.
Our former incel admits that this can be more difficult than it sounds.
When I finally came to my senses it involved me throwing out all of my previously held beliefs and ideologies. In theory, it sounds easy but if you’re a Democrat or Republican, imagine making the intellectual leap from one side to the other, it’s like doing that. Here you’ve been told to despise women, despite attractive guys that get those women, despise pop-culture and the things around it, now you have take all that and conclude that it was all wrong and you need to listen to the other side. And all the while you are trying to do this the community that you had around you is pointing to reasons why you shouldn’t make that ideological leap.
Nonetheless, it is possible. This guy did it. Others have done it.
The former incel ends his post with some words for those still caught up in the incel cult:
From this I want to leave a bit of advice for Incels that might read this. It can be hard to embrace advice from a side of society that has ostrizied you. But at the of the day what side do you want ot be on. Give whatever excuse you want but at the end of the day you know where you want to be. My journey from that community took years of standing the corner at parties, getting rejected by girls, getting into fights, it was painful. But from my experience, the pain is worth it.
I’d be curious to hear more stories from former incels who got out. If you’re someone who was once (but no more) under the sway of incel ideas — whether you were a regular on some incel forum or just someone who found themselves being drawn in by their rhetoric, please drop me a note (dfutrelle at gmail) or post your story in the comments below. Tell us what drew you to incel in the first place, how you got pulled in, and how and why you ultimately rejected that way of life.
@ pug
Not necessarily. However if you were to identify as a ‘solider of the Caliphate’ then people might rightly get suspicious; similarly with people who identify as ‘incel’.
Whatever the term’s origin, it has been adopted, and now monopolised, by a group who revel in misogyny, and hate generally.
Call yourself an abuse survivor, someone struggling with intimacy, even a tormented person, and you’ll get nothing but sympathy and support from the kind people here.
Use a monikor that’s indelibly associated with a hate group, then don’t be surprised if the primary targets of that group give you a hard time.
Your point? Why should we have to reason with people who want us raped, tortured, and/or killed?
@Schild
What a wonderful reply.
@Pug
Banking off of what Schild said, we don’t lump all “socially awkward” men into the incel category. We are only referring to the ones who self identify as such, hence why Dave only quotes from posts by people who post in incel forums.
We also don’t mock men’s real pain. Not even close. We judge MRAs and incels and PUAs by their attitudes towards women, demonstrated by what they do and say. Their potential anxiety/depression/past trauma etc is left well alone, because if you read through the comments policy you’ll find that we take mental health issues seriously.
That said. Mental health issues don’t automatically turn a man into a misogynist. THAT is a choice on his part.
ETA: ninjad by Schild.
Ooh. A new troll! I hope this one is for real new and not another MRAL/seagull/fguy sock! This is going to be long and hopefully I am not ninja’d.
Please provide an example of the misandry. Specific quotes. Quoting misogynistic men (and for that matter, women) doesn’t count as misandry. What misandric thing did David say?
No he doesn’t. When David or any of the commenters here talk about incels, we only speak of self identified incels who post on incel forums.
How does it do that. Be specific. Quote where David has scorned all socially awkward men and not just the misogynistic ones. Be careful here. There are regulars here of all genders who would consider themselves awkward or geeky or not conventionally attractive and we don’t get this impression at all. Perhaps you’ve misread some of the blog posts? Tell me what you perceive as scorning all socially awkward men and we can unpack that together. I mean, assuming you’re an innocent non-misogynistic awkward guy and not a disingenuous troll. You wouldn’t lie to us, would you?
I’ve noticed you didn’t link to the forum. So we can’t verify this for ourselves. How convenient. I’m already just from this paragraph doubting it’s a misogyny free space though. Why is incel a label for men only? Why is the forum a male space exclusively? Are you saying that women can’t be socially awkward and unable to find a partner? Given that a woman invented the word “incel” why are you appropriating the label for men only if you are not a misogynist? Perhaps you don’t worship “Saint Elliot” over there, but I’m willing to bet that the regulars have some problematic attitudes towards women. But again, I wouldn’t know. You didn’t link it.
When did David tell anyone to man up? Not in this post. I don’t remember ever saying that and I’ve read every single post on this blog. If I’m wrong, please do link. No one is obligated to argue against the straw feminists in your head, so you have to back assertions up if you want it treated in good faith.
If you find incel groups too mean spirited to join, why are you mad at David for criticizing them? That’s a wee bit hypocritical, don’t you think? And LOL at MRA groups not being mean.
Oh wait. You’re talking about a group that is not an MRA group. I’m familiar with 1 in 6. They’re a good group. Please point where this blog or anyone commenting here called them evil and misogynistic. I guarantee that you can’t. In fact, I learned about the existence of the group from reading and commenting here. Oh, and I read the entire about page just to be 100% sure they are not an MRA site. They aren’t. They don’t use the term men’s rights anywhere. In fact, one of their partner orgs is RAINN. A group that is one of the sources of many of the statistics MRAs like to call feminist lies. They also specificially state they are inclusive of queer and trans men. The MRM is definitely not. Do you want to try again to find us a non-misogynistic MRA site. I’ll wait.
That’s terrible. I’m so sorry that happened to you. You should know however, that you are not the only male survivor to post here. Many current and former regular and semi-regular commenters are male survivors too. Nobody here is of the belief that men shouldn’t talk about their abuse. We only object when men tell us we should only talk about male victims and not female victims. You shouldn’t scold us for assuming all incels are misogynists and then turn around and assume all feminists oppose male survivors getting help and talking about their experiences. In fact, you may want to read back a week or two in the archives. There was a post highlighting Terry Crews (who is a male survivor) and how MRAs are calling him a “cuck” instead of supporting him. You know who has been supportive of him? Feminists.
No they aren’t.
No we aren’t. Because the MRM doesn’t do anything to help male abuse survivors, homeless men or men with cancer. They only complain that women aren’t doing it for them. There are lots of good orgs that do help men. None of them are affiliated with the MRM though.
It’s time for everyone’s favorite game. Maybe you’ll be the first person to win! Name a non-misogynist MRA. Someone prominent in the movement who identifies him or herself as MRA. You can do it!
Do you?
You are a man, therefore you are evil is not a feminist position. It’s not a position held by this blog. It’s patriarchy that says men are only allowed to express emotion if it is anger. I hope you do find healing, but in the meantime, please do not attribute positions to the feminist movement that we do not hold. Toxic masculinity =/= men. Patriarchy =/= men. Patriarchy is a system. Toxic masculinity is its byproduct. If you ever read (really read for comprehension) feminist works, you would know that.
Incel is “involuntarily celibate.” If you are voluntarily not pursuing relationships because you have not worked through your trauma yet, that’s understandable. But it’s not incel.
Countless women suffer this crap too. Yet there are no equivalent groups celebrating mass murder, celebrating the rape of men and advocating acid attacks. Why do you suppose that is? Hint: the answer I’m looking for is not “all men are evil.”
Also, you shouldn’t assume that all misogynists have suffered abuse. You shouldn’t assume that all men who have suffered abuse, suffered abuse by women. Some did. Some had male abusers. too. You also shouldn’t assume that abuse survivors are automatically inclined to join hate groups. They aren’t. Abuse survivors of all genders who are not in hate groups have our support. Misogynists do not. Considering that these are people who want me to be killed or raped, I have every right to prioritize my own well being over coddling them.
Sounds like you’re protesting too much here.
@Pug
I’ve browsed them too and found them to be far more than “mean-spirited”. The people i sympathize with are the people they attack. Not the incels. Fuck ’em.
When i say incel, i mean these fuckers: https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/05/01/just-another-horrific-reminder-that-incels-are-a-bunch-of-wannabe-elliot-rodgers/
“Incels without hate” are outliers.
@pug, the term Incel is used by that hive of hateful murderers – which I understand and am glad that you don’t participate in.
But the term Incel is what they use to describe themselves.
The term Incel is used by the New York Times to describe them. That’s their name.
If you’re using the term to describe yourself, too, you have to expect that you’d be cast in with them. Because that’s how words work.
If you’re insistent on using the term, you have to assume people are going to think you’re in that crowd – because you’ve given yourself the same label. So you either will have to change your terms or expect to take a lot of hostility.
It’s like saying that you’re White Supremacist, but you’re part of Whites Without Hate. I won’t even get into the extra layers of wrong in the problem here, but on its very surface you have to expect to get the side eye from the people getting murdered and abused by the hateful majority.
You don’t get to define your own words and then get angry when others don’t use’m your way. You say this to Makroth:
Incels are a group that hang around on the internet, at Incel doot me and other places, and fantasize about killing women. That’s what we mean.
You know, the group that’s all over the news for their virulent hate. Those guys. Not “all people who aren’t having sex but would like to”, because that’s an enormous chunk of humanity and isn’t descriptive.
Are you one of those? No? Great. Howabout not using the term they use for themselves? Your life might be easier for it.
@Pug
Sympathy for them?
Incels are the terrorists.
Leave now concern troll.
@ Pug:
Interesting that you’re only interacting with people and posts that let you feel attacked, which gives you an excuse to attack back.
You’re ignoring Scild, which is pretty telling.
If you want to be treated like the non-scum variety of incel, maybe don’t act like the scummy kind; we’ve seen this particular brand of bullshit waaaaaaaay too many times.
…says the guy who only showed up to attack this blog and its commenters, and then gets all butthurt that people treat him as hostile.
That seems rather similar to the kind of entitlement the scummy incels wallow in.
Fuck off, hypocrite.
#notallincels
Lol
Most of this seemed like copypasta. So many strawmen
Considering that incel sprang up for that bastion of male entitlement that is the manosphere, why is it not satisfying to call it male entitlement?
I think the word you’re looking for is “misogynist.” They aren’t rough and tumble passionate people with a political cause. They’re misogynists. Pure and simple.
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
As I said, 1in6 IS a Men’s Rights organization!
Valerie Solanas was a feminist and an influential one at that. As was Mary Daly. Both wrote about the fantasy of killing men, and Solanas actually tried to kill one. So, would I be right to say “feminist=man hater”? No.
And I would NEVER say “feminist” as a pejorative. Yes, some hate men, and a few are even considerate enough to at least be open about it. But others don’t. For every “Feminist current” site there is a “everyday feminism”.
Unlike the author of this blog, I will not throw an entire group of people under a bus for a few clicks.
And again, “incel” is short for “involuntary celibacy.” How does being unable to form a human connection automatically make someone a monster?
“Nowhere in their description do they describe themselves as a Men’s Rights Activist organization, they’re a survivor support network.”
And the survivors are MEN and they acknowledge that it’s harder for male victims to find support than female victims do (which most feminists will argue against until they are blue in the face)
Hence by definition they are a “men’s rights organization”, and I don’t see why that is a bad thing in and of itself.
You can deny it or ignore it, but the fact is every time men try to help one another a large segment of the feminists population get up in arms. I’ve seen many feminists online denounce 1in6 and condemn any male who talks about their own issues, and we all saw how feminists threw Oprah under the bus when she let Tyler Perry and other men speak out about their abuse on her show.
And like I said, I harbored resentment (but not hatred) of women for awhile. Now I am still uncomfortable with women in some instances because of what happened to me, but I don’t hate them…but I can understand how someone who has been through something similar might.
And if you are able to look at the issue from more than one angle, ask yourself this and be honest: how many times have you heard feminists use the term “Mommy issues” when talking about men they don’t like? Well, I have “Mommy issues”, and I don’t see how that’s my fault. In general, when one’s first sexual experience is one’s mother drunkenly putting her hand down one’s pants when they’re 9 years old and terrified, that happens.
Feminists should stop using that term.
I wonder how many other incel forum members had similar crap happen, and the only place they found that can confirm their resentment toward women is the incel forums?
When I think of that, while I still find what they are saying to be gross, I just can’t call them “scum”.
Look at the message above. Scild wrote a well thought reply, so I did the same. That is “telling.”
Please show me where I attacked the commenters of this blog. I attacked the author, but not the commenters.
Ooglyboggles: Yes, I actually also have sympathy for the people in the Middle-East who join terrorist organizations because they feel so trapped, even if I condemn their actions.
I like to practice compassion for all, even if it doesn’t extend to defending the actions of all.
Ooh. We have a zombie Solanas! It’s been a while. Congratulations. You found a violent feminist from 50 years ago. Although, not, as you assert influential in the movement. What is this supposed to prove.
Mary Daly did not to my knowledge talk about killing men. She did say IIRC, some sort of external factor would need to wipe out most men for there to be any kind of peace on earth. She didn’t say we should commit genocide though. I mean, Daly is problematic to be sure. But as MRA’s do, you mischaracterize her. That copypasta of man hating feminist quotes that float about the manosphere? It’s been debunked for many years now. Some are misquotes, some are from works of fiction and some have been taken out of context.
And for fuck’s sake. Stop saying 1 in 6 is a men’s right org. They aren’t. You don’t get to mislabel them like that.
Dave isn’t doing that though. Read the multiple replies that say we are only criticising self-identifying incels.
NOBODY HAS SAID THAT. ANYWHERE.
Cite your sources please.
Honestly? Never. And I hang around feminist spaces a lot more than you do.
It’s not your fault. And I’m very sorry that happened to you, really. I hope you find healing in the near enough future. But please believe me that feminism does not mock men with such experiences. You’ve claimed that feminists do, but haven’t really given any evidence.
@WWTH,
http://i.imgur.com/1x1uhAh.gif
@Pug,
Saying that 1 in 6 is an MRA Organization doesn’t make it true. They don’t use the term – they call themselves an abuse survivor’s network. I would not be at all surprised if they very specifically avoid the term “Men’s Rights”, specifically because it would associate them with MRA organizations like Return of Kings and the like.
In other words, they are trying to avoid what you’re doing here.
If we used the terms “Incels-with-hate” instead of just Incels, if we used “SPLC-Sanctioned-MRA-groups” instead of just MRAs, would you still be upset at us? If we changed language to be a bit more specific, would you be angry at what we’re saying?
If the answer to that is no, you’d be fine with us – then you should calm down, because your problem is semantics, and it’s a self-constructed problem on your part, based on the words you use to describe your groups of choice.
If the answer to that is yes, then you need to explain why you’re angry at us.
Are you angry because we don’t have enough sympathy for the people who spend their days wishing us tortured, abused and dead?
@ pug
It would assist in responding if you could link to any quote from 1 in 6 where they identify as a men’s rights organisation, call for any additional rights for men, or draw attention to any infringement of rights men already enjoy.
ETA: I really need to learn how to type faster.
Added for clarity:
Why are you mad at us for using the term? It’s the term they use to describe themselves.
Be mad at them for using the term.
Like Osama Bin Laden? That poor man trapped by his enormous wealth and privilege.
It’s minority of people in the Middle East that join ISIS. Most people that live there do not stand with them. They are in fact, the ones most harmed by them. Many of the victims of ISIS and other terrorist groups are just as trapped in shitty situations. If not more so. Save your pity for their victims.
Pug
I am socially awkward and more things too. just strange generally! and I am male and I feel very welcome in this community here. what you say about these people and David is basically nonsense ?
@Pug
Using my poem
To deflect atrocties of incels
With false sympathies?
For shame.
@weirdwood: You begin by calling me a “troll”…not always a good idea to start with an ad hominem.
Anyway, again, 1in6 is an organization that advocated for the rights of men. Hence, it is a MEN’S RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. I am celibate and not in a relationship because I have issues stemming from abuse, hence I am “INVOLUNTARILY CELIBATE”
A rose by any other name…
And as for a link the forum: I apologize, here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelsWithoutHate/
You could have googled it, but I left it above. And I am NOT a member and don’t endorse them, just saying, fair is fair.
And yes, I do believe that men should have spaces to talk about their issues among men, just as women should. I am going to start going to a group therapy secession for other men who have been abused and it is men only too…is that automatically a “cesspool of sexism and violence”?
I don’t think I could talk about my issues face to face with a group of women at this point. Does that make me a bad person for wanting a space with men who have been through the same thing?
And I couldn’t help but noticed you left out that I actually agree with feminism on a number of issues, like toxic-masculinity, how men can’t understand what women go through, etc.
You seem to want to turn everything into a “us vs them” thing. It is not. I am aware that many feminists are great people. I’ve essentially that on this thread a number of times.
If you refrain from writing off everyone who disagrees with you as a “troll,” it will result in expanding your horizons.
*eating popcorn gif
Oooo, a terdnugget incel whiny pants is here for a scild beatdown.
Lol. He’s super compassionate. Especially to the victims of incel terrorists.
@Scildfreja
I meant the term “Mommy issues.”
I am being honest: not all feminists are bad and feminists have a lot of good points. Why not be honest and say that feminists have used terms like “Mommy issues” too many times. How am I suppose to read that, considering what I’ve been through?
I hope that clarifies it, and I am NOT trying to personally attack you and apologize if anything I said came across as such.
@Pug:
Boring walls-o-text are boring. Oozing hatred is oozy. Trollish troll is trolling. Starting with “you are such misandrists” is a bad start. In short: You need to get out more.