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Escape from Incel: Redditor explains how he extracted himself from the toxic subculture and rejoined the real world

GET OUT!

By David Futrelle

On Reddit’s IncelTears — a subreddit devoted to mocking and critiquing the toxic incel subculture — someone claiming to be a former incel has posted an account of their escape from inceldom. It’s a throwaway account, but the story he tells seems pretty convincingly true to me.

“In the wake of the horrific events in Toronto,” he begins,

I wanted to share some of my experiences as a former incel, and how I eventually changed my behaviors to become a better person.

Being an incel is awful, it’s an awful predicament, with an unhelpful community to back it up. Often when people describe an incel, the general description is “Involunaty Celebate”, someone who can’t get girls, etc. This is the most glaring issue and the one bought up by the community but it isn’t the only issue in most cases.

When a guy can’t get a girl to save his life there’s usually some undelying social issue at play and that issue has an affect on that individuals entire social life, not just the intimate aspect. You don’t feel important, you don’t feel valued. This starts to play on your self esteem and is partially to explain for the very self-hate low IQ trodding nature of the community.

Unfortunately, the incel “community” only makes this self-hate worse.

The community’s biggest problem is that it does nothing to fix the problem and only goes to reinforce ones already held beliefs. So you’re someone who can’t get a girl, shunned from society (to various degrees) and you go online to find people like you, and when you get there you find false explanations for your problems and an echo chamber of your ideas.

You confide in this group and as a result, you start to inherit some of that group think and ideas. These ideas don’t help you in the real world but rather make things worse, it’s a downward spiral.

So what was it that led him to start questioning incel dogma — and eventually extract himself from this morass? As he explained in a followup comment, he literally got off of incel forums and into the real world, where he quickly found that most of what the incels say about men and women and dating and pretty much everything is just plain wrong.

One of the things I did was get out there, almost in a literal sense.

When I was an incel I never went out. I had never been in a bar, never been to a club, I didn’t know that life in the slightest. So when I went online it was very easy to believe the things you read about bars/clubs/women/chads/stacies/etc because I had no comparison in the real world to call bullshit on one way of the other. The first time I went out to a bar, 20 minutes in and getting a drink I saw a guy, probably 3 inches shorter and twice as round sitting in the VIP section with a bunch of hot girls nearby. Seeing that shattered by worldview because according to the incel community, that guy was doing something that was fucking impossible in their eyes.

I’m not sure that the VIP section of a nightclub is what I’d call a representative sample of reality, but it’s certainly the case that the easiest way to challenge many of the central myths of incel is to simply open your eyes to the evidence all around you in the real world, where you’ll find men of all sizes, shapes, heights, and ages happily paired off with women of all sizes, shapes, heights and ages. You have to be willfully blind to believe that women won’t date short men, or men with improperly angled eyebrows, or men with inappropriately sized wrists (and yes, these are real incel beliefs).

The former incel continues:

After that I kept going out and every time I went out there was always something different, not a single night was the same. Always different characters, different situations, different interactions. I started to see that there wasn’t just one pre-disposed type of person to get a particular girl and I learned that anything could happen, literally anything.

Yep.

I’ve been thrown out of a bar on to the street only to be invited to an afterparty 5 minutes later, I’ve gotten harshly rejected by a girl in front of her boyfriend only for her to run back to me before the bar closes and give me her number. I was in the corner of a bar talking to a girl telling her about where I was from before some drunk guy decided to roundhouse kick me because he thought I was lying about my nationality (that a was fun night). Countless upon countless situations where I’ve walked out of it going “what the fuck just happened”

I guess this is one possible escape from incel. But you don’t have to get into bar fights or get invited to any afterparties — or even set foot in a nightclub at all — to see that incels live inside a collective delusion that only vaguely resembles life on this planet.

Overall, it was just replacing the knowledge I had acquired from places like incel subreddits and forums with real-world experience. You can read PUA and incel forums all day long and get two totally different ideas of nightlife, or you can go out and get another idea entirely.

Yep. All it requires is that you just GET OUT of the incel subculture for a short time — whether you literally start going to nightclubs or simply free yourself from incel thinking long enough to see that what the incels are telling you is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Our former incel admits that this can be more difficult than it sounds.

When I finally came to my senses it involved me throwing out all of my previously held beliefs and ideologies. In theory, it sounds easy but if you’re a Democrat or Republican, imagine making the intellectual leap from one side to the other, it’s like doing that. Here you’ve been told to despise women, despite attractive guys that get those women, despise pop-culture and the things around it, now you have take all that and conclude that it was all wrong and you need to listen to the other side. And all the while you are trying to do this the community that you had around you is pointing to reasons why you shouldn’t make that ideological leap.

Nonetheless, it is possible. This guy did it. Others have done it.

The former incel ends his post with some words for those still caught up in the incel cult:

From this I want to leave a bit of advice for Incels that might read this. It can be hard to embrace advice from a side of society that has ostrizied you. But at the of the day what side do you want ot be on. Give whatever excuse you want but at the end of the day you know where you want to be. My journey from that community took years of standing the corner at parties, getting rejected by girls, getting into fights, it was painful. But from my experience, the pain is worth it.

I’d be curious to hear more stories from former incels who got out. If you’re someone who was once (but no more) under the sway of incel ideas — whether you were a regular on some incel forum or just someone who found themselves being drawn in by their rhetoric, please drop me a note (dfutrelle at gmail) or post your story in the comments below. Tell us what drew you to incel in the first place, how you got pulled in, and how and why you ultimately rejected that way of life.

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Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Hmmm, forgive me for throwing a little salt on this story, but it still strikes me a sharing the underlying entitlement. To its credit, it does recognize that a lot of the ostracism that they feel is more a product of their own anxieties than any actual rejection by women. So holding women in contempt for imagined slights against their egos is ridiculous and this guy recognizes it.

And yet, he seems not to have let go of the underlying angst regarding relationships and masculinity. Perhaps this guy’s eager for companionship and can’t handle loneliness, but if it were merely out of the same need for social validation, then that underlying motivation still needs to be addressed and corrected.

I’m glad he could walk away from a toxic community. I’d still recommend Dr. Nerdlove’s blog to really challenge the assumptions buttressing a lot of toxic attitudes about relationships.

Robert Walker-Smith
Robert Walker-Smith
2 years ago

I’ve been reading more about this than is probably good for me. In mental self-defense I’m deliberately trying to learn more about mathematics; it’s challenging enough to distract my attention but accessible enough to not frustrate me.

It’s reminded me of Vonnegut’s “Breakfast of Champions” and Kilgore Trout’s anguished realization that “ideas, or the lack of them, can cause diseases”. They’ve internalized a toxic belief system that allows them to externalize their self-hatred, and become stuck in a feedback loop of belief and behavior that amplifies the noise and drowns out the signal. I will admit, at a certain point I found myself beginning to feel sorry for their misery; a few minutes on Reddit reassured me that they’re doing a bang-up job of that on their own.

On a happier note, my younger son had his seventeenth birthday yesterday. We had a family dinner of delivered Korean food which everyone enjoyed. This morning, he got up, showered, dressed, and is out the door to school. He had an actual terrible early childhood (prior to the adoption), but a decade of therapy and a lot of work on his part have made a tremendous difference. He knows he has challenges but he doesn’t seem to blame anyone – not even himself – for them. I’m unspeakably grateful for that.

solecism
solecism
2 years ago

@doomcup

It’s not easy to get out of a toxic “bucket of crabs” community once you’re inside it (especially when you start out inside it, but that’s another story).

Actually, I was just thinking that incels are more like a bucket o’ scorpions. Their stings range from painful to debilitating to lethal. And their inherent nature is to inflict harm on others even when it results in their own destruction a la story about the scorpion and the frog.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Scild,

I’m not saying he’s presently getting too old for the club scene. I’m saying eventually he will be. And there needs to be something in his life when he does one day age out.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Ah. I misread, and agree.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
2 years ago

Well at least he escaped and didn’t end up doing something like this to extract revenge on jock Chads and Stacies. Something tells me this guy is going to be outed as an incel soon enough.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/regional-education-boss-arrested-suspicion-123900087.html

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

OT, but found this interesting article on Alanis Morrisette linked on GamerGhazi:

https://theoutline.com/post/4400/alanis-morissette-very-intriguing-person?zd=1&zi=4icw2le4

Being a 90s kid, I remember Alanis being absolutely huuuuuge in Canada, but being a kid, couldn’t quite relate to the lyrics when Jagged Little Pill was at its peak. I just thought, “Eh, catchy alt-rock tunes.” But as I look back, yeah… Alanis really didn’t get nearly enough credit as she should have for her success. It seemed like every media outlet was trying to take a poke at her or make her a punchline (granted I expect that from comedy outlets like Air Farce and 22 Minutes). But given how utterly massive that album was… you’d think she’d dominate more 90s retrospectives, particularly in Canada, yet I’ve barely heard two words said about her continuing to release music as recently as 2012, with a ninth album on the way (or so Wiki tells me).

I really need to give JLP a listen again. Probably Infatuation Junkie too.

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

Alanis Morissette made a pretty effective God in Dogma (misandry!)

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Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, FemiNest Collective agent, Hell Toupee keeper & Intergalactic Meanie
Redsilkphoenix: Jetpack Vixen, FemiNest Collective agent, Hell Toupee keeper & Intergalactic Meanie
2 years ago

@Katamount,

Didn’t she get her start on a kids show in the 1980-90’s? ‘You Can’t Do That on Television!’, I think it was. It ran on Nickelodeon in the US back in the 1990’s, when that channel was dedicated to 24/7 kids programs.

Waaaaay back in the days when cable networks were allowed to be assorted niche networks showing all kinds of goofy stuff, instead of blandified into essentially the same network in pursuit of the 18-30 year-old guy demographic. (Because their money is hundreds of times more valuable than anyone else’s, or something.)

Moggie
Moggie
2 years ago

Yeah, I never really understood why she wasn’t more highly regarded. She was outrageously talented, and JLP is still one of my favourite albums from the mid-90s.

Jesalin
Jesalin
2 years ago

I still remember her more upbeat kid pop stuff.

Cats In Shiny Hats
Cats In Shiny Hats
2 years ago

It’s a start. Maybe not a big start, but a start. Hopefully he’ll look around and see all the people in non-bar places getting happy relationships. I really, sincerely hope that he keeps learning and growing.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

Okay, I’m reading this blog for the first time and frankly, I find it appalling how outright misandristic it is. But hey, hating on men gets the clicks and hence the cash, so why not?

To start, this author throws the term “incel” (involuntary celibacy) around as if every person who is socially awkward and has trouble with intimacy is a misogynistic man with a gun and a “MAGA” hat. Nothing could be further from the truth.

How many men AND women are there who can’t form relationships and have trouble relating to others? Tons. This whole blog equates any and all people—especially men—who have social difficulty with members of one tiny community and leaps scorn and ridicule on all socially awkward men. As if such people don’t have enough BS to deal with as it is.

And also, not even all incels online are like that. Every see the forum “Incels without hate”? They will ban posts that bash women and simply give men who face these issues a place to vent and look for others who feel the same way. So, men should NEVER have any place to talk about their diffculties? Should we just all “man up”? I love how people like the author of this blog love to be against toxic masculinity, but will happily embrace its language when it fits their need.

As for asking how “incels get out,” I was and am celibate and never had a real healthy relationship that worked, but I have had sex. I also have social anxiety and a bunch of other issues. But I never joined reddit/incel or any other such group because I found too many of them to be mean-spirited. Instead I joined a Men’s Rights Group.

Yep, I found support in a Men’s Rights Organization. What is the “evil misogynistic organization” I turned to? This one:
https://1in6.org/

Why am I “Incel”? Because I was sexually abused by my Mom when I was 9-11 and now have trouble with intimacy and have issues as a result of it. But I know, I know: males are always to blame, and talking about my abuse “silences women” and I should just “man up” and blah blah blah.

And yes, 1in6 is a Men’s Rights Organization. They advocate for men to have the right to get help for dealing with sexual abuse in a society that too often insists “men can’t be victims.” When you attack “Men’s Rights” and use the term as a pejorative, you are also attacking them and groups that provide homeless shelters for men and groups working to fight male cancers etc.

Saying “when we say ‘Men’s Rights’ we’re talking about those misogynistic ones” doesn’t cut it. If I use “feminist” as a pejorative I would be called out AND RIGHTFULLY SO, and it wouldn’t matter if I meant only people like Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin or Susan Brownmiller.

Yes, women have it rough in society and yes toxic masculinity exists, and yes I can’t know what it feels like to be a woman and have to worry about getting to my car at night and stuff like that. I get it.

But I am not about to apologize for saying that no woman knows what it’s like to hear a steady litany of “you are a man hence you are evil” while holding the pain of being a little boy who suffered so greatly at the hands of a woman and not being able to talk about it. For awhile I had resentment toward women, but never hate. But I’m dealing with that too and I know that not all women were as screwed up as my Mom.

So, that’s why I’m “incel.” Relationships with a woman is something I am not comfortable with and I will never be the person I might have been had my abuse not have happened.

Countess other men on those forums—even the hateful men—have suffered similar crap but aren’t ready to admit it and talk about the root of their issues. Blogs like this that demonize men and mock these guys just drive them deeper into the shadows.

But anyway, I’m just another “evil male women hater” and blah blah blah so whatev.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

Wow, I just took a look at Wiki… Alanis is only 43 years old! I guess all adults look old and wise when you’re 10, but it’s hard to believe that she’s only 24 or 25 in that Dogma GIF. I guess she always came across as wiser than her years.

Aaron
Aaron
2 years ago

@Julia:

The Incel community reminds me so much of the pro-ana communities I used to frequent when I was young, except with hate thrown in.

Damn, I was just thinking about this. I mentioned to a friend once that pro-ana – the communities, not the members themselves – is as pure a manifestation of evil as I had ever seen. My opinion of Incel (as an ideology, distinct from individual incels) is basically the same, because the general thinking and the essential assumptions that undergird the community – the collective self-destructiveness, the body dysmorphia framed as tough realism, the simplistic, Manichean worldview that engenders a horrible combination of hopeless despair and (self-)hatred – are ultimately very similar. It’s one of the reasons I’m not entirely convinced by the line that incels have “chosen” to engage with the community. After all, no one forces anyone to participate in pro-ana, either – but the ideology is powerful and flexible, it preys on very common insecurities, and once it has its claws in you it’s difficult to extricate yourself. It’s sinister – far more troubling, in my opinion, than any other manosphere derivation.

Incels seem to think very similarly, except they throw in hate. That’s the part I don’t understand. In pro-ana, we all thought “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore I’m worthless.” The incels go the other way and think “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore women are worthless.”

I agree that there are major differences between the two groups, most of them stemming from the fact that generally, incels externalize their hate far more than members of pro-ana groups do. But I think it’s important to remember that incels don’t just hate women/Chads – they hate themselves just as much if not more. The externalized hatred doesn’t replace the self-hate, it’s just an additional dynamic. The big question is: why? Why all the toxic misogyny and misanthropy? With the caveat that I might be completely off-base, let me take a stab at it.

The (left-leaning) media seems to have mostly chalked Incel up to “male entitlement” or something along those lines. While I don’t think that’s entirely wrong, frankly I find it a bit glib and unsatisfying. I think a more concrete explanation is the genealogy of the community – I’m not an expert, but as far as I can tell, they emerged most directly out of online PUA, men’s rights, 4chan, and the manosphere broadly defined. Incels aren’t synonymous with any of those groups, but they come from them – and with the (possible) exception of 4chan, they are all explicitly ideological communities that push an antagonistic form of gender politics. (The details differ between factions, but their worldviews are basically similar in broad strokes.) There’s hence a kind of political valence to incel thinking that was mostly absent in pro-ana communities.

What does all that mean in a practical sense? Maybe not much, but I think greater understanding and precision is always a good thing. I also think Incel might be an early glimpse of some of the downstream effects that the men’s rights movement is having or will have on the broader culture. Because I could see Incel evolving very differently had their antecedents been something other than the manosphere.

Andy
Andy
2 years ago

Maybe the reason you don’t hear more about Alanis in retrospectives is that it’s hard to fit her music into a theme. Most of her songs fit better into the pensive, folk-influenced female singer-songwriter subgenre, but her biggest and most memorable hit (in America at least) is much closer to mainstream rock.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

“I guess this is one possible escape from incel. But you don’t have to get into bar fights or get invited to any afterparties — or even set foot in a nightclub at all — to see that incels live inside a collective delusion that only vaguely resembles life on this planet.”

This line really stands out as an example of why the author of this blog comes across as a giant piece of fecal matter.

How many of those “incel” men have real issues with anxiety, depression, abuse etc that form their opinions? TONS. For them, life on this planet IS that bad.

But hey, as long as people click that “donate” button, why not pour salt on a wound? I mean, it’s not because a blog about men dealing with their issues constructively would EVER get as much cash as one that just attacks “incels” would.

And why “incels” anyway? Pick-up artists are the ones who go out and actually hurt people, same with many (but not all by a long shot) of athletic men who think because they are “on a team” they can get away with anything.

Aside from a few rare cases, most “incels” are just alone on their computers. Talk about low-hanging fruit.

Sol
Sol
2 years ago

I’ve made several attempts lasting a few weeks to months of stopping to call myself “incel” and staying away from r/incels and r/braincels. It was quite enjoyable for a while.

But at the end of the day, whenever real-life stressors pile up I start to relate all the hateful and derisive statements made about incels to myself again (“What difference does it make what I call myself? I know that I am meant when they speak about incels”), appeals for people to lay off the generalizations and attacks have predictably bad results, I feel confirmed in being included in their hate and eventually call myself incel again.

Also having no other place to go and pulling off a “look what you made me do, now I’m back to posting in incel subs again” show of self-destruction after getting banned from IncelTears.
(Quite tricky to find threads to post in without having to endorse hate aimed at anyone other than myself or the bullies over at IT).

Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
2 years ago

@Pug

Alone on their computers, wishing death and misery upon half the human population. And that collective delusion refers to their opinions of women, mostly. But it also refers to opinions about themselves. Really, they’re wrong about everything they talk about.

Incels are scum. If you defend them, you are scum. Have a nice life.

Tessa
Tessa
2 years ago

So, I *briefly* identified as an incel- though, admittedly, this was about 10 years ago, when the community around that term wasn’t as toxic (iirc) as it is now. However, I should note that my case is a little atypical, for reasons that will shortly become clear.

In my case, I’d made it through most of college without successfully dating anyone or losing my virginity, and that was the source of a lot of anxiety and stress. Partially this was due to insecurity that I was somehow fundamentally unloveable; however, in retrospect, a large portion of it was me hoping that getting a girlfriend/getting laid would “fix” my gradually increasing gender dysphoria. Fortunately, I aimed my bitterness and anger largely at myself, rather than women around me (i.e., my general assumption that there was something wrong with *me*, rather than with women in general- which, to be fair, wasn’t too far from the truth: it turns out trying to date someone as a straight dude when you’re actually a lesbian is not a great idea).

What got me out of it was simply experience and persistence- I kept on going out to meet people (largely through swing dancing and other social dances), asking women out, and while I accrued quite a large list of rejections, some eventually said yes. That built up my confidence, I actually did end up getting involved in several relationships with women, and ultimately, a little over six years ago, met my wife at a west coast swing dance.

Of course, I realized not too long afterwards that despite achieving my goal of “getting laid”, it *still* hadn’t made me comfortable with having a male body, and ultimately I wound up transitioning into a happily married lesbian.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ pug

It would really help, if you’re going to quote people, if you could put the relevant passage in the ‘blockquote’ format. That assists in differentiating between the statement you’re quoting and your own comments on that.

Just highlight the relevant text, and click the ‘quote’ button in the bar atop the comments box.

Cheers.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

@Pug,

Hi! Hello and welcome. It seems you have a bee in your bonnet! Let me help you try to let it out.

I can understand your first read being negative, my duck! So I’ll get this out front, first and foremost: Feminists don’t hate men. We don’t hate you for being a man, and we don’t hate any man for the simple fact that they’re men.

(Okay, some feminists might hate men for just being men, but frankly they’re a tiny minority and aren’t representative. Just like not all involuntarily celibate people are Incels of the murderous variety.)

No, we don’t hate men. What we hate are the social roles that men often take and are expected of them, and the social roles expected of women. Some grops of men embrace these roles very tightly – those men are grouped into the Manosphere, but self-label with a number of terms. Men’s Rights Activists, Pick-up Artists, MGTOWs, Incels. They are characterized by enforcing some version of traditional masculine roles on men, and on demanding women assume their traditional social roles without complaint. This blog follows those groups in the Manosphere, their various enforcements of masculinity, and their various demands of (and abuses of) women.

You can want the right to pursue an identity outside of that rigid cast of masculinity – 1 in 6 is a great organization as far as I’ve seen it; it sounds fantastic! I’m very glad you found it, and I hope you can continue to benefit from it, heal, and grow stronger. Its ideals are very feminist, focused on helping men escape those destructive roles they’re given. We focus on women’s issues here for reasons we would be happy to discuss at length with you if you like – provided you are honestly curious about them of course.

You might see some terms in here you might self-identify with: you’ve mentioned “MRA” and “Incel”. We are using the terms they use for themselves; there’s really no other term we can use. When they change how they describe themselves so too can we, but until then I can only suggest you either reclaim the terms from them by loudly condemning their actions, or choose another term for yourself. There are lots to choose from.

I’ll clarify for you: we’re using those terms because that’s what they call themselves.

Stick with 1 in 6! And, about them, I’ll just say: Nowhere in their description do they describe themselves as a Men’s Rights Activist organization, they’re a survivor support network. So you don’t have to use the same descriptor as men who spend all their day on Twitter blaming women for everything! 1 in 6, incidentally, is allied with RAINN, which groups like RoK and other MRA groups have loudly denounced, because RAINN is feminist.

We’re the allies of RAINN and 1 in 6 here, far from its opposition. We think they’re good things. We want sexual abuse to end.

Regardless of where the conversation goes from here, I wish you the best, and for healing to mellow old wounds.

Katamount
Katamount
2 years ago

@Pug

I have anxiety and depression. I had hangups about virginity in high school and university. I didn’t seek out a group of self-reinforcing misogynists, blame all my problems on women and come up with stupid playground nicknames like “Chad” and “Stacy.”

These people don’t get any sympathy from me.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

Addenda:

It’s not the anxiety or the depression that David is pointing at here – lots of us have that.

It’s the hate. They hate us. They fantasize about pouring acid on our faces and murdering us in ever more elaborate fantasies. Some of them go on to actually do it.

If they were just anxious and depressed, we would have all the sympathy in the world for them. The world is a hard place. Most of us here get that.

It’s when they use that anxiety and depression as an excuse to spend their days fantasizing about our humiliation, degradation, abuse and murder that we get a little testy.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

@Makroth:

“Incels are scum”?

So, again, a blog like “incels without hate” where they ban sexist comments are “scum”?

And what do you mean “incels”? Do you mean all people who want companionship, but for whatever reason can’t get it?

And I am not a part of these forums—as I’ve said—and never was but I browsed them and found them mean-spirited yet I sympathized with the feeling of being “under siege”. As a survivor of abuse, I get that.

It is possible to sympathize with the feelings people have while not agreeing with what they’re doing with it. I also sympathize with the people in the Middle-East dealing with imperialism and war. Does that mean I’m a fan of ISIS?

I simply have compassion for people going through crap who have not found a positive outlet.

And calling someone “scum” will only make them less likely to listen to reason.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ pug

Does that mean I’m a fan of ISIS?

Not necessarily. However if you were to identify as a ‘solider of the Caliphate’ then people might rightly get suspicious; similarly with people who identify as ‘incel’.

Whatever the term’s origin, it has been adopted, and now monopolised, by a group who revel in misogyny, and hate generally.

Call yourself an abuse survivor, someone struggling with intimacy, even a tormented person, and you’ll get nothing but sympathy and support from the kind people here.

Use a monikor that’s indelibly associated with a hate group, then don’t be surprised if the primary targets of that group give you a hard time.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

And calling someone “scum” will only make them less likely to listen to reason.

Your point? Why should we have to reason with people who want us raped, tortured, and/or killed?

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
2 years ago

@Schild

What a wonderful reply.

@Pug
Banking off of what Schild said, we don’t lump all “socially awkward” men into the incel category. We are only referring to the ones who self identify as such, hence why Dave only quotes from posts by people who post in incel forums.

We also don’t mock men’s real pain. Not even close. We judge MRAs and incels and PUAs by their attitudes towards women, demonstrated by what they do and say. Their potential anxiety/depression/past trauma etc is left well alone, because if you read through the comments policy you’ll find that we take mental health issues seriously.

That said. Mental health issues don’t automatically turn a man into a misogynist. THAT is a choice on his part.

ETA: ninjad by Schild.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ooh. A new troll! I hope this one is for real new and not another MRAL/seagull/fguy sock! This is going to be long and hopefully I am not ninja’d.

Okay, I’m reading this blog for the first time and frankly, I find it appalling how outright misandristic it is. But hey, hating on men gets the clicks and hence the cash, so why not?

Please provide an example of the misandry. Specific quotes. Quoting misogynistic men (and for that matter, women) doesn’t count as misandry. What misandric thing did David say?

To start, this author throws the term “incel” (involuntary celibacy) around as if every person who is socially awkward and has trouble with intimacy is a misogynistic man with a gun and a “MAGA” hat. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No he doesn’t. When David or any of the commenters here talk about incels, we only speak of self identified incels who post on incel forums.

How many men AND women are there who can’t form relationships and have trouble relating to others? Tons. This whole blog equates any and all people—especially men—who have social difficulty with members of one tiny community and leaps scorn and ridicule on all socially awkward men. As if such people don’t have enough BS to deal with as it is.

How does it do that. Be specific. Quote where David has scorned all socially awkward men and not just the misogynistic ones. Be careful here. There are regulars here of all genders who would consider themselves awkward or geeky or not conventionally attractive and we don’t get this impression at all. Perhaps you’ve misread some of the blog posts? Tell me what you perceive as scorning all socially awkward men and we can unpack that together. I mean, assuming you’re an innocent non-misogynistic awkward guy and not a disingenuous troll. You wouldn’t lie to us, would you?

And also, not even all incels online are like that. Every see the forum “Incels without hate”? They will ban posts that bash women and simply give men who face these issues a place to vent and look for others who feel the same way.

I’ve noticed you didn’t link to the forum. So we can’t verify this for ourselves. How convenient. I’m already just from this paragraph doubting it’s a misogyny free space though. Why is incel a label for men only? Why is the forum a male space exclusively? Are you saying that women can’t be socially awkward and unable to find a partner? Given that a woman invented the word “incel” why are you appropriating the label for men only if you are not a misogynist? Perhaps you don’t worship “Saint Elliot” over there, but I’m willing to bet that the regulars have some problematic attitudes towards women. But again, I wouldn’t know. You didn’t link it.

So, men should NEVER have any place to talk about their diffculties? Should we just all “man up”? I love how people like the author of this blog love to be against toxic masculinity, but will happily embrace its language when it fits their need.

When did David tell anyone to man up? Not in this post. I don’t remember ever saying that and I’ve read every single post on this blog. If I’m wrong, please do link. No one is obligated to argue against the straw feminists in your head, so you have to back assertions up if you want it treated in good faith.

As for asking how “incels get out,” I was and am celibate and never had a real healthy relationship that worked, but I have had sex. I also have social anxiety and a bunch of other issues. But I never joined reddit/incel or any other such group because I found too many of them to be mean-spirited. Instead I joined a Men’s Rights Group.

If you find incel groups too mean spirited to join, why are you mad at David for criticizing them? That’s a wee bit hypocritical, don’t you think? And LOL at MRA groups not being mean.

Yep, I found support in a Men’s Rights Organization. What is the “evil misogynistic organization” I turned to? This one:
https://1in6.org/

Oh wait. You’re talking about a group that is not an MRA group. I’m familiar with 1 in 6. They’re a good group. Please point where this blog or anyone commenting here called them evil and misogynistic. I guarantee that you can’t. In fact, I learned about the existence of the group from reading and commenting here. Oh, and I read the entire about page just to be 100% sure they are not an MRA site. They aren’t. They don’t use the term men’s rights anywhere. In fact, one of their partner orgs is RAINN. A group that is one of the sources of many of the statistics MRAs like to call feminist lies. They also specificially state they are inclusive of queer and trans men. The MRM is definitely not. Do you want to try again to find us a non-misogynistic MRA site. I’ll wait.

Why am I “Incel”? Because I was sexually abused by my Mom when I was 9-11 and now have trouble with intimacy and have issues as a result of it. But I know, I know: males are always to blame, and talking about my abuse “silences women” and I should just “man up” and blah blah blah.

That’s terrible. I’m so sorry that happened to you. You should know however, that you are not the only male survivor to post here. Many current and former regular and semi-regular commenters are male survivors too. Nobody here is of the belief that men shouldn’t talk about their abuse. We only object when men tell us we should only talk about male victims and not female victims. You shouldn’t scold us for assuming all incels are misogynists and then turn around and assume all feminists oppose male survivors getting help and talking about their experiences. In fact, you may want to read back a week or two in the archives. There was a post highlighting Terry Crews (who is a male survivor) and how MRAs are calling him a “cuck” instead of supporting him. You know who has been supportive of him? Feminists.

And yes, 1in6 is a Men’s Rights Organization.

No they aren’t.

They advocate for men to have the right to get help for dealing with sexual abuse in a society that too often insists “men can’t be victims.” When you attack “Men’s Rights” and use the term as a pejorative, you are also attacking them and groups that provide homeless shelters for men and groups working to fight male cancers etc.

No we aren’t. Because the MRM doesn’t do anything to help male abuse survivors, homeless men or men with cancer. They only complain that women aren’t doing it for them. There are lots of good orgs that do help men. None of them are affiliated with the MRM though.

Saying “when we say ‘Men’s Rights’ we’re talking about those misogynistic ones” doesn’t cut it. If I use “feminist” as a pejorative I would be called out AND RIGHTFULLY SO, and it wouldn’t matter if I meant only people like Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin or Susan Brownmiller.

It’s time for everyone’s favorite game. Maybe you’ll be the first person to win! Name a non-misogynist MRA. Someone prominent in the movement who identifies him or herself as MRA. You can do it!

Yes, women have it rough in society and yes toxic masculinity exists, and yes I can’t know what it feels like to be a woman and have to worry about getting to my car at night and stuff like that. I get it.

Do you?

But I am not about to apologize for saying that no woman knows what it’s like to hear a steady litany of “you are a man hence you are evil” while holding the pain of being a little boy who suffered so greatly at the hands of a woman and not being able to talk about it. For awhile I had resentment toward women, but never hate. But I’m dealing with that too and I know that not all women were as screwed up as my Mom.

You are a man, therefore you are evil is not a feminist position. It’s not a position held by this blog. It’s patriarchy that says men are only allowed to express emotion if it is anger. I hope you do find healing, but in the meantime, please do not attribute positions to the feminist movement that we do not hold. Toxic masculinity =/= men. Patriarchy =/= men. Patriarchy is a system. Toxic masculinity is its byproduct. If you ever read (really read for comprehension) feminist works, you would know that.

So, that’s why I’m “incel.” Relationships with a woman is something I am not comfortable with and I will never be the person I might have been had my abuse not have happened.

Incel is “involuntarily celibate.” If you are voluntarily not pursuing relationships because you have not worked through your trauma yet, that’s understandable. But it’s not incel.

Countess other men on those forums—even the hateful men—have suffered similar crap but aren’t ready to admit it and talk about the root of their issues. Blogs like this that demonize men and mock these guys just drive them deeper into the shadows.

Countless women suffer this crap too. Yet there are no equivalent groups celebrating mass murder, celebrating the rape of men and advocating acid attacks. Why do you suppose that is? Hint: the answer I’m looking for is not “all men are evil.”

Also, you shouldn’t assume that all misogynists have suffered abuse. You shouldn’t assume that all men who have suffered abuse, suffered abuse by women. Some did. Some had male abusers. too. You also shouldn’t assume that abuse survivors are automatically inclined to join hate groups. They aren’t. Abuse survivors of all genders who are not in hate groups have our support. Misogynists do not. Considering that these are people who want me to be killed or raped, I have every right to prioritize my own well being over coddling them.

But anyway, I’m just another “evil male women hater” and blah blah blah so whatev.

Sounds like you’re protesting too much here.

Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
2 years ago

@Pug

I’ve browsed them too and found them to be far more than “mean-spirited”. The people i sympathize with are the people they attack. Not the incels. Fuck ’em.

When i say incel, i mean these fuckers: https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2018/05/01/just-another-horrific-reminder-that-incels-are-a-bunch-of-wannabe-elliot-rodgers/

“Incels without hate” are outliers.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

@pug, the term Incel is used by that hive of hateful murderers – which I understand and am glad that you don’t participate in.

But the term Incel is what they use to describe themselves.

The term Incel is used by the New York Times to describe them. That’s their name.

If you’re using the term to describe yourself, too, you have to expect that you’d be cast in with them. Because that’s how words work.

If you’re insistent on using the term, you have to assume people are going to think you’re in that crowd – because you’ve given yourself the same label. So you either will have to change your terms or expect to take a lot of hostility.

It’s like saying that you’re White Supremacist, but you’re part of Whites Without Hate. I won’t even get into the extra layers of wrong in the problem here, but on its very surface you have to expect to get the side eye from the people getting murdered and abused by the hateful majority.

You don’t get to define your own words and then get angry when others don’t use’m your way. You say this to Makroth:

And what do you mean “incels”?

Incels are a group that hang around on the internet, at Incel doot me and other places, and fantasize about killing women. That’s what we mean.

You know, the group that’s all over the news for their virulent hate. Those guys. Not “all people who aren’t having sex but would like to”, because that’s an enormous chunk of humanity and isn’t descriptive.

Are you one of those? No? Great. Howabout not using the term they use for themselves? Your life might be easier for it.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@Pug
Sympathy for them?
Incels are the terrorists.
Leave now concern troll.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

@ Pug:

Interesting that you’re only interacting with people and posts that let you feel attacked, which gives you an excuse to attack back.

You’re ignoring Scild, which is pretty telling.

If you want to be treated like the non-scum variety of incel, maybe don’t act like the scummy kind; we’ve seen this particular brand of bullshit waaaaaaaay too many times.

Pug wrote:

And calling someone “scum” will only make them less likely to listen to reason.

…says the guy who only showed up to attack this blog and its commenters, and then gets all butthurt that people treat him as hostile.

That seems rather similar to the kind of entitlement the scummy incels wallow in.

Fuck off, hypocrite.

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

#notallincels

Lol

Most of this seemed like copypasta. So many strawmen

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

The (left-leaning) media seems to have mostly chalked Incel up to “male entitlement” or something along those lines. While I don’t think that’s entirely wrong, frankly I find it a bit glib and unsatisfying. I think a more concrete explanation is the genealogy of the community – I’m not an expert, but as far as I can tell, they emerged most directly out of online PUA, men’s rights, 4chan, and the manosphere broadly defined. Incels aren’t synonymous with any of those groups, but they come from them – and with the (possible) exception of 4chan, (The details differ between factions, but their worldviews are basically similar in broad strokes.) There’s hence a kind of political valence to incel thinking that was mostly absent in pro-ana communities.

Considering that incel sprang up for that bastion of male entitlement that is the manosphere, why is it not satisfying to call it male entitlement?

they are all explicitly ideological communities that push an antagonistic form of gender politics.

I think the word you’re looking for is “misogynist.” They aren’t rough and tumble passionate people with a political cause. They’re misogynists. Pure and simple.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

Scildfreja Unnýðnes

Men’s Rights Activists, Pick-up Artists, MGTOWs, Incels. They are characterized by enforcing some version of traditional masculine roles on men, and on demanding women assume their traditional social roles without complaint.

As I said, 1in6 IS a Men’s Rights organization!

Valerie Solanas was a feminist and an influential one at that. As was Mary Daly. Both wrote about the fantasy of killing men, and Solanas actually tried to kill one. So, would I be right to say “feminist=man hater”? No.

And I would NEVER say “feminist” as a pejorative. Yes, some hate men, and a few are even considerate enough to at least be open about it. But others don’t. For every “Feminist current” site there is a “everyday feminism”.

Unlike the author of this blog, I will not throw an entire group of people under a bus for a few clicks.

And again, “incel” is short for “involuntary celibacy.” How does being unable to form a human connection automatically make someone a monster?

“Nowhere in their description do they describe themselves as a Men’s Rights Activist organization, they’re a survivor support network.”

And the survivors are MEN and they acknowledge that it’s harder for male victims to find support than female victims do (which most feminists will argue against until they are blue in the face)

Hence by definition they are a “men’s rights organization”, and I don’t see why that is a bad thing in and of itself.

You can deny it or ignore it, but the fact is every time men try to help one another a large segment of the feminists population get up in arms. I’ve seen many feminists online denounce 1in6 and condemn any male who talks about their own issues, and we all saw how feminists threw Oprah under the bus when she let Tyler Perry and other men speak out about their abuse on her show.

And like I said, I harbored resentment (but not hatred) of women for awhile. Now I am still uncomfortable with women in some instances because of what happened to me, but I don’t hate them…but I can understand how someone who has been through something similar might.

And if you are able to look at the issue from more than one angle, ask yourself this and be honest: how many times have you heard feminists use the term “Mommy issues” when talking about men they don’t like? Well, I have “Mommy issues”, and I don’t see how that’s my fault. In general, when one’s first sexual experience is one’s mother drunkenly putting her hand down one’s pants when they’re 9 years old and terrified, that happens.

Feminists should stop using that term.

I wonder how many other incel forum members had similar crap happen, and the only place they found that can confirm their resentment toward women is the incel forums?

When I think of that, while I still find what they are saying to be gross, I just can’t call them “scum”.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

Interesting that you’re only interacting with people and posts that let you feel attacked, which gives you an excuse to attack back.

You’re ignoring Scild, which is pretty telling.

Look at the message above. Scild wrote a well thought reply, so I did the same. That is “telling.”

…says the guy who only showed up to attack this blog and its commenters, and then gets all butthurt that people treat him as hostile.

Please show me where I attacked the commenters of this blog. I attacked the author, but not the commenters.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

Ooglyboggles: Yes, I actually also have sympathy for the people in the Middle-East who join terrorist organizations because they feel so trapped, even if I condemn their actions.

I like to practice compassion for all, even if it doesn’t extend to defending the actions of all.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Valerie Solanas was a feminist and an influential one at that. As was Mary Daly. Both wrote about the fantasy of killing men, and Solanas actually tried to kill one. So, would I be right to say “feminist=man hater”? No.

Ooh. We have a zombie Solanas! It’s been a while. Congratulations. You found a violent feminist from 50 years ago. Although, not, as you assert influential in the movement. What is this supposed to prove.

Mary Daly did not to my knowledge talk about killing men. She did say IIRC, some sort of external factor would need to wipe out most men for there to be any kind of peace on earth. She didn’t say we should commit genocide though. I mean, Daly is problematic to be sure. But as MRA’s do, you mischaracterize her. That copypasta of man hating feminist quotes that float about the manosphere? It’s been debunked for many years now. Some are misquotes, some are from works of fiction and some have been taken out of context.

And for fuck’s sake. Stop saying 1 in 6 is a men’s right org. They aren’t. You don’t get to mislabel them like that.

sunnysombrera
sunnysombrera
2 years ago

Unlike the author of this blog, I will not throw an entire group of people under a bus for a few clicks.

Dave isn’t doing that though. Read the multiple replies that say we are only criticising self-identifying incels.

And again, “incel” is short for “involuntary celibacy.” How does being unable to form a human connection automatically make someone a monster?

NOBODY HAS SAID THAT. ANYWHERE.

You can deny it or ignore it, but the fact is every time men try to help one another a large segment of the feminists population get up in arms. I’ve seen many feminists online denounce 1in6 and condemn any male who talks about their own issues, and we all saw how feminists threw Oprah under the bus when she let Tyler Perry and other men speak out about their abuse on her show.

Cite your sources please.

And if you are able to look at the issue from more than one angle, ask yourself this and be honest: how many times have you heard feminists use the term “Mommy issues” when talking about men they don’t like?

Honestly? Never. And I hang around feminist spaces a lot more than you do.

Well, I have “Mommy issues”, and I don’t see how that’s my fault. In general, when one’s first sexual experience is one’s mother drunkenly putting her hand down one’s pants when they’re 9 years old and terrified, that happens.

It’s not your fault. And I’m very sorry that happened to you, really. I hope you find healing in the near enough future. But please believe me that feminism does not mock men with such experiences. You’ve claimed that feminists do, but haven’t really given any evidence.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

@WWTH,

http://i.imgur.com/1x1uhAh.gif

@Pug,

Saying that 1 in 6 is an MRA Organization doesn’t make it true. They don’t use the term – they call themselves an abuse survivor’s network. I would not be at all surprised if they very specifically avoid the term “Men’s Rights”, specifically because it would associate them with MRA organizations like Return of Kings and the like.

In other words, they are trying to avoid what you’re doing here.

If we used the terms “Incels-with-hate” instead of just Incels, if we used “SPLC-Sanctioned-MRA-groups” instead of just MRAs, would you still be upset at us? If we changed language to be a bit more specific, would you be angry at what we’re saying?

If the answer to that is no, you’d be fine with us – then you should calm down, because your problem is semantics, and it’s a self-constructed problem on your part, based on the words you use to describe your groups of choice.

If the answer to that is yes, then you need to explain why you’re angry at us.

Are you angry because we don’t have enough sympathy for the people who spend their days wishing us tortured, abused and dead?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

@ pug

As I said, 1in6 IS a Men’s Rights organization!

It would assist in responding if you could link to any quote from 1 in 6 where they identify as a men’s rights organisation, call for any additional rights for men, or draw attention to any infringement of rights men already enjoy.

ETA: I really need to learn how to type faster.

Scildfreja Unnýðnes
Scildfreja Unnýðnes
2 years ago

Added for clarity:

Feminists should stop using that term.

Why are you mad at us for using the term? It’s the term they use to describe themselves.

Be mad at them for using the term.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Ooglyboggles: Yes, I actually also have sympathy for the people in the Middle-East who join terrorist organizations because they feel so trapped, even if I condemn their actions.

Like Osama Bin Laden? That poor man trapped by his enormous wealth and privilege.

It’s minority of people in the Middle East that join ISIS. Most people that live there do not stand with them. They are in fact, the ones most harmed by them. Many of the victims of ISIS and other terrorist groups are just as trapped in shitty situations. If not more so. Save your pity for their victims.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
2 years ago

Pug

I am socially awkward and more things too. just strange generally! and I am male and I feel very welcome in this community here. what you say about these people and David is basically nonsense 🤷

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@Pug
Using my poem
To deflect atrocties of incels
With false sympathies?

For shame.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

@weirdwood: You begin by calling me a “troll”…not always a good idea to start with an ad hominem.

Anyway, again, 1in6 is an organization that advocated for the rights of men. Hence, it is a MEN’S RIGHTS ORGANIZATION. I am celibate and not in a relationship because I have issues stemming from abuse, hence I am “INVOLUNTARILY CELIBATE”

A rose by any other name…

And as for a link the forum: I apologize, here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelsWithoutHate/

You could have googled it, but I left it above. And I am NOT a member and don’t endorse them, just saying, fair is fair.

And yes, I do believe that men should have spaces to talk about their issues among men, just as women should. I am going to start going to a group therapy secession for other men who have been abused and it is men only too…is that automatically a “cesspool of sexism and violence”?

I don’t think I could talk about my issues face to face with a group of women at this point. Does that make me a bad person for wanting a space with men who have been through the same thing?

And I couldn’t help but noticed you left out that I actually agree with feminism on a number of issues, like toxic-masculinity, how men can’t understand what women go through, etc.

You seem to want to turn everything into a “us vs them” thing. It is not. I am aware that many feminists are great people. I’ve essentially that on this thread a number of times.

If you refrain from writing off everyone who disagrees with you as a “troll,” it will result in expanding your horizons.

cornychips
cornychips
2 years ago

*eating popcorn gif

Oooo, a terdnugget incel whiny pants is here for a scild beatdown.

Lol. He’s super compassionate. Especially to the victims of incel terrorists.

Pug
Pug
2 years ago

@Scildfreja

I meant the term “Mommy issues.”

I am being honest: not all feminists are bad and feminists have a lot of good points. Why not be honest and say that feminists have used terms like “Mommy issues” too many times. How am I suppose to read that, considering what I’ve been through?

I hope that clarifies it, and I am NOT trying to personally attack you and apologize if anything I said came across as such.

Bina
2 years ago

@Pug:

Boring walls-o-text are boring. Oozing hatred is oozy. Trollish troll is trolling. Starting with “you are such misandrists” is a bad start. In short: You need to get out more.