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Escape from Incel: Redditor explains how he extracted himself from the toxic subculture and rejoined the real world

GET OUT!

By David Futrelle

On Reddit’s IncelTears — a subreddit devoted to mocking and critiquing the toxic incel subculture — someone claiming to be a former incel has posted an account of their escape from inceldom. It’s a throwaway account, but the story he tells seems pretty convincingly true to me.

“In the wake of the horrific events in Toronto,” he begins,

I wanted to share some of my experiences as a former incel, and how I eventually changed my behaviors to become a better person.

Being an incel is awful, it’s an awful predicament, with an unhelpful community to back it up. Often when people describe an incel, the general description is “Involunaty Celebate”, someone who can’t get girls, etc. This is the most glaring issue and the one bought up by the community but it isn’t the only issue in most cases.

When a guy can’t get a girl to save his life there’s usually some undelying social issue at play and that issue has an affect on that individuals entire social life, not just the intimate aspect. You don’t feel important, you don’t feel valued. This starts to play on your self esteem and is partially to explain for the very self-hate low IQ trodding nature of the community.

Unfortunately, the incel “community” only makes this self-hate worse.

The community’s biggest problem is that it does nothing to fix the problem and only goes to reinforce ones already held beliefs. So you’re someone who can’t get a girl, shunned from society (to various degrees) and you go online to find people like you, and when you get there you find false explanations for your problems and an echo chamber of your ideas.

You confide in this group and as a result, you start to inherit some of that group think and ideas. These ideas don’t help you in the real world but rather make things worse, it’s a downward spiral.

So what was it that led him to start questioning incel dogma — and eventually extract himself from this morass? As he explained in a followup comment, he literally got off of incel forums and into the real world, where he quickly found that most of what the incels say about men and women and dating and pretty much everything is just plain wrong.

One of the things I did was get out there, almost in a literal sense.

When I was an incel I never went out. I had never been in a bar, never been to a club, I didn’t know that life in the slightest. So when I went online it was very easy to believe the things you read about bars/clubs/women/chads/stacies/etc because I had no comparison in the real world to call bullshit on one way of the other. The first time I went out to a bar, 20 minutes in and getting a drink I saw a guy, probably 3 inches shorter and twice as round sitting in the VIP section with a bunch of hot girls nearby. Seeing that shattered by worldview because according to the incel community, that guy was doing something that was fucking impossible in their eyes.

I’m not sure that the VIP section of a nightclub is what I’d call a representative sample of reality, but it’s certainly the case that the easiest way to challenge many of the central myths of incel is to simply open your eyes to the evidence all around you in the real world, where you’ll find men of all sizes, shapes, heights, and ages happily paired off with women of all sizes, shapes, heights and ages. You have to be willfully blind to believe that women won’t date short men, or men with improperly angled eyebrows, or men with inappropriately sized wrists (and yes, these are real incel beliefs).

The former incel continues:

After that I kept going out and every time I went out there was always something different, not a single night was the same. Always different characters, different situations, different interactions. I started to see that there wasn’t just one pre-disposed type of person to get a particular girl and I learned that anything could happen, literally anything.

Yep.

I’ve been thrown out of a bar on to the street only to be invited to an afterparty 5 minutes later, I’ve gotten harshly rejected by a girl in front of her boyfriend only for her to run back to me before the bar closes and give me her number. I was in the corner of a bar talking to a girl telling her about where I was from before some drunk guy decided to roundhouse kick me because he thought I was lying about my nationality (that a was fun night). Countless upon countless situations where I’ve walked out of it going “what the fuck just happened”

I guess this is one possible escape from incel. But you don’t have to get into bar fights or get invited to any afterparties — or even set foot in a nightclub at all — to see that incels live inside a collective delusion that only vaguely resembles life on this planet.

Overall, it was just replacing the knowledge I had acquired from places like incel subreddits and forums with real-world experience. You can read PUA and incel forums all day long and get two totally different ideas of nightlife, or you can go out and get another idea entirely.

Yep. All it requires is that you just GET OUT of the incel subculture for a short time — whether you literally start going to nightclubs or simply free yourself from incel thinking long enough to see that what the incels are telling you is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Our former incel admits that this can be more difficult than it sounds.

When I finally came to my senses it involved me throwing out all of my previously held beliefs and ideologies. In theory, it sounds easy but if you’re a Democrat or Republican, imagine making the intellectual leap from one side to the other, it’s like doing that. Here you’ve been told to despise women, despite attractive guys that get those women, despise pop-culture and the things around it, now you have take all that and conclude that it was all wrong and you need to listen to the other side. And all the while you are trying to do this the community that you had around you is pointing to reasons why you shouldn’t make that ideological leap.

Nonetheless, it is possible. This guy did it. Others have done it.

The former incel ends his post with some words for those still caught up in the incel cult:

From this I want to leave a bit of advice for Incels that might read this. It can be hard to embrace advice from a side of society that has ostrizied you. But at the of the day what side do you want ot be on. Give whatever excuse you want but at the end of the day you know where you want to be. My journey from that community took years of standing the corner at parties, getting rejected by girls, getting into fights, it was painful. But from my experience, the pain is worth it.

I’d be curious to hear more stories from former incels who got out. If you’re someone who was once (but no more) under the sway of incel ideas — whether you were a regular on some incel forum or just someone who found themselves being drawn in by their rhetoric, please drop me a note (dfutrelle at gmail) or post your story in the comments below. Tell us what drew you to incel in the first place, how you got pulled in, and how and why you ultimately rejected that way of life.

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Gaebolga
Gaebolga
2 years ago

If true, definite props to him for doing the hard work and changing; too many people don’t.

I was never an incel, but I did have a massive amount of self-defeating baggage as a teenager, and it crippled my ability to interact with other people effectively. Moving back to the Bay Area right after high school gave me the opportunity to redefine myself, and my cousin was able to convince me that my problem was primarily one of attitude. I didn’t change overnight, but I still remember that conversation because it marked a shift from downward to upward; my attitude about myself and consequently my ability to socialize increased consistently for many years after that talk, and I finally understood that self loathing is essentially a choice.

FWIW

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

Not a former incel, but I loved this article anyway.

This starts to play on your self esteem and is partially to explain for the very self-hate low IQ trodding nature of the community.

I wish I knew exactly what this meant, although I do get the gist of it.

My own experience dating is similar to this guy’s, not because I got into bar fights or got thrown out of venues, but because I told myself that I was opening myself up to rejection by putting myself out there. I just had to be okay with that, painful as that rejection can be.

Rejection? C’est la vie.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

Glad to hear that this person managed to escape it. I wish my former best friend was able to do the same.

Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
Axecalibur: Middle Name Danger
2 years ago

Hope this spreads. If for no other reason than to let some people see the lengths this guy went thru to get out. Best case scenario, some young assholes in training conclude that an ideology that makes you so miserable and insufferable to yourself and others that you need to spend years getting roundhoused in order to escape may not be the best ethos to get into to begin with

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
2 years ago

That’s a really interesting post; and I do find it quite plausible. It does have a ring of authenticity about it. I’ve read accounts from deradicalised nazis and terrorists; and it follows a similar pattern.

I’m glad he was able to escape.

However just because we’ve got one example of ‘Bub’ I’m still not of the opinion that incels generally can be reformed or that they’re potentially ok people underneath.

If they can make that journey on their own that’s great; but I don’t think they’re entitled to any help on the way, certainly not from their victims, or that they should get a medal just for achieving basic competence in human decency.

(But willing to be proved wrong, so would encourage any lurking ex, or trying to be ex, incels to take up David’s invitation)

Marshall Boice
Marshall Boice
2 years ago

“Welcome to the world of the real.” Morpheus.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself. Still, kudos to the guy for making the effort and rejoining the human race.

Ariblester
Ariblester
2 years ago

One problem with an incel realizing that they have a problem and need to improve themselves is that they might just end up jumping ship to the Jordan B. Peterson cult, which blends misogyny and exhortations towards self-improvement into an easy-to-swallow gruel.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Not to be a cynic, but it kind of sounds like this dude went from inceldom to just the more traditional toxic masculinity. He calls grown women “girls.” He talks about hitting on a “girl” in the presence of her boyfriend. He boasts of bar fights.

I mean, it’s a step up from incel because well, anything is a step up. But it doesn’t sound like he regrets the misogyny and it doesn’t sound like he really views women as fully human. It just sounds like he regrets the incel lifestyle because it kept him from having fun and getting laid.

Pseudoanonymous
Pseudoanonymous
2 years ago

As someone who has never had good luck with women (outside of one great 6 month relationship) I’m so so so happy I never fell down the incel hole. In high school I thought that kind of defining yourself by having sex or not was dumb and haven’t changed my mind much since. and I got a lot of social anxiety and problems caused by late capitalism fucking my life up. It’s enough without blaming half the people on Earth for everything.

That said I cannot get my mind around going to bar/nightclub and trying to chat up a random person at all. Maybe it’s just being in a small rural area. probably some unexamined subconscious misogyny in “Oh I’m just not attracted to any women I’ve met/seen around here” too. hell if I could get to the level of making and keeping friends i’m be happy

apologies for half cocked rantings.

Patty Thinkerer
Patty Thinkerer
2 years ago

One problem with an incel realizing that they have a problem and need to improve themselves is that they might just end up jumping ship to the Jordan B. Peterson cult, which blends misogyny and exhortations towards self-improvement into an easy-to-swallow gruel.

That concerns me, too. I don’t want this fella going one step forward, two steps back, you know?

Slightly OT, but when I read the title of this, I immediately thought of the theme to Escape From New York.

bekabot
bekabot
2 years ago

Good for him. He didn’t like the place he was in and he got out of it. May we all take inspiration from his courage. We need more men like him. Glad he’s now out in the world.

Pseudonym
Pseudonym
2 years ago

One potential unintended consequence is that as the shock of atrocities like Toronto encourage people like this guy to leave, the Incel community is going to get more radicalised.

As the victims/survivors of incel brainwashing break away and leave, mostly perpetrators will be left. That’s a frightening thought.

RosieLa
RosieLa
2 years ago

I saw one last week where the guy left because he’d considered himself a mental health advocate and he was attacking a woman, saying that her mental illness was made up, simply because she was a woman. That’s when he realized that he’d swallowed the red pill far too deeply.

I wish that I could find it now.

Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile
2 years ago

I had never been in a bar, never been to a club, I didn’t know that life in the slightest. So when I went online it was very easy to believe the things you read about bars/clubs/women/chads/stacies/etc because I had no comparison in the real world to call bullshit on one way of the other.

Here’s what I don’t understand. He hadn’t been in a bar or a club. I’ve never been in a club and I’ve been in bars maybe half a dozen times, but only with friends. Nonetheless, by the time I started dating I had been out: in school, in malls, in church, in grocery stores, on the streets of the closest city (population 50,000). In addition, I had read newspapers and magazines, seen a few movies and TV shows, talked with friends, talked with my mother, had neighbors. There was no way I would have thought that most women dated a few gorgeous, cruel hunks.

I don’t think that this guy was raised by wolves who were unable to communicate even their (necessarily) limited knowledge about human dating. (No offense to wolves. You rock!)

My conclusion is that most incels are talking trash they don’t actually 100 percent believe 100 percent of the time. To do so would be to reject a vast body of information about how the world works.

I think that some of them are jokers, some of them try to believe what they want to believe despite what they observe with their own eyes, and some of them are provocateurs. Maybe most of them are all three, jockeying for position as the baddest guy of all on 4chan.

I’m not trying to say that these guys aren’t dangerous. They certainly are. But dogmatic? That would mean suspending pretty much all belief in their own experiences.

Ooglyboggles
Ooglyboggles
2 years ago

@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile

I’m not trying to say that these guys aren’t dangerous. They certainly are. But dogmatic? That would mean suspending pretty much all belief in their own experiences.

From what we’ve seen, and from other fringe groups, I think we can say for certain they’re buying their own stuff.

Dalillama
Dalillama
2 years ago

@Kat

But dogmatic? That would mean suspending pretty much all belief in their own experiences.

Which makes them different from other dogmatic extremists how? That’s kind of the distinguishing characteristic of a fanatic.

itsabeast
itsabeast
2 years ago

I’m not trying to say that these guys aren’t dangerous. They certainly are. But dogmatic? That would mean suspending pretty much all belief in their own experiences.

Obsessive thinking and poor emotion regulation can trap some people in a whirlwind of hot shit that’s hard to see out of or ignore. For someone who has self-isolated for years, the idea that these newfangled dating apps have upended everything and created a new polygynous order can seem plausible; the little observation of the real world that they manage to have gets discounted because of confirmation bias.

mcbender
2 years ago

Going to agree with WWTH on this one, this guy may have improved a little but he’s got a long way to go. The impression I kept getting while reading this was that he’s essentially saying “incel culture was wrong that I was incapable of getting laid, I figured that out and managed to get laid therefore I reject incel culture”. I don’t see any real understanding of the misogynistic aspect, nor any rejection thereof.

If this pathway gets him out, that’s great (and if publicising it helps bring others with him, even better), but I hope he continues to reflect.

Really, though, I think what they need is to break the homosocial cycle. As long as they’re only looking to other men for validation, and discount anything women say out of a belief that women are fundamentally dishonest, they’re going to inevitably end up in these kind of self-perpetuating fact-free death spirals.

solecism
solecism
2 years ago

@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile

I’m not trying to say that these guys aren’t dangerous. They certainly are. But dogmatic? That would mean suspending pretty much all belief in their own experiences.

Actually, I think people who want desperately to believe in their own superiority/inferiority are very able to disbelieve their own lived experiences, or at least craft a narrative that supports their ideology despite the empirical evidence around them. Not so much confirmation bias as confirmation blinders.

Think about all the mediocre white men out there who are convinced, convinced! of their inherent superiority compared to white women and people of color of all genders. Despite all the evidence that maybe they aren’t particularly gifted, smart, hard-working, dedicated, what-have-you, they are still convinced that they deserve that job/promotion/bonus, that they keep civilization going, yadda yadda. Or maybe I am completely wrong, and they’re protesting too much per Shakespeare.

But I can’t help thinking of Derek Black’s experience growing up in the white supremacy movement, deciding to study medieval European history in college to prove white superiority, and discovering everything he thought he understood about the world was bullshit, then switching to studying Arabic and the origins of Islam. Or all the home-schooled Christian fundamentalists who go to college and confront all sorts of new things that challenge their narrow worldview. Of course, in these examples, the worldview was imposed by parents not self-chosen in adulthood (or near adulthood in the case of teenage incels). So then it becomes about rejecting parents more than self-identity, maybe.

Either way, I applaud people who choose to reinvent themselves instead of doubling-down on awfulness and denying the reality all around them. Reinvention is work; altering course is work; self-examination is work. All work worth doing in the end.

Jaygee
Jaygee
2 years ago

So some of the incels have actually not interracted with reality. I mean if this account is true, and I have no strong reason to doubt it; it gives context to some of the wild claims they make.

Talonknife
Talonknife
2 years ago

@Kat, ambassador of the feminist government in exile

Having spent some time interacting with them under a throwaway Reddit account, these guys will straight-up disregard reality to confirm their beliefs. No matter how many in their own words “sub-optimal” men in relationships you show them, they’ll just create another justification as to why this one person is the exception to the rule. (Mostly money. They also think all women are golddiggers. Go figure.)

Pseudonym
Pseudonym
2 years ago

I agree with WWTH and mcbender that it seems like the guy has a long way to go. However, it’s also worth pointing out that we are probably not the intended audience.

He seems to be addressing would-be incels and current incels specifically. The point he’s specifically making is that incels are not a self-help group, they are a self-loathing and, ultimately, self-destruction group, and that getting out is hard but worth it. That, I have to assume, is the message that he thinks that audience needs to hear.

If you read it that way, and not as a self-reflective piece about his journey back into the world of reality and decent humanity, it makes a lot more sense.

Uly
Uly
2 years ago

I have a link, if you’re interested:

I Was a Men’s Rights Activist

However just because we’ve got one example of ‘Bub’ I’m still not of the opinion that incels generally can be reformed or that they’re potentially ok people underneath.

I like to believe that all people can grow and change, and become better people.

However, just because people can change doesn’t mean that they will change, alas.

Catalpa
Catalpa
2 years ago

Back when I was a closeted/in-denial asexual teenager and had several… odd… views on sex, I came across the loveshy forum and was perplexed. How could anyone think of nobody wanting to have sex with you as a BAD thing? Sex is terrible and gross! People not wanting to have sex with you means you have so much more free time for actual fun things! These guys clearly don’t know how lucky they have it, I should go to them and attempt to communicate how wrong their worldview is (I mean, I wasn’t wrong about that- just wrong about how allosexual people tend to view sex). Learned pretty quick that the incels would be having none of my, hm, what was the term, ‘volcel bullshit’ or something like that.

So I guess I never really had any chance of falling in with them (especially since I’m not a dude), but there was a brief (and in retrospect, revolting) moment where I felt kinship with fellow non-sex-havers. And, yeah, getting out into the world, experiencing new things and listening to a wide variety of other people’s lived experiences helped me to have a better understanding of the world and re-evaluate my own weird worldview. So I’d say it’s not only beneficial for incels, though they’re definitely some of the most in need of pulling their heads out of their asses.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

Good on him for getting out.

TheKND
TheKND
2 years ago

Not to be a cynic, but it kind of sounds like this dude went from inceldom to just the more traditional toxic masculinity. He calls grown women “girls.” He talks about hitting on a “girl” in the presence of her boyfriend. He boasts of bar fights.

I wanted to write a positive and charitable answer, saying that at least he made the jump out of the swamp and into the world of “normalcy”. But then I went on, pondering about what “Incel” actually is (IE: The self-accepted excess of the failure end of toxic masculinity) and… god, you’re right… -_-
Well, at least he’s not cheering when women get killed anymore

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
2 years ago

@WWTH

Not to be a cynic, but it kind of sounds like this dude went from inceldom to just the more traditional toxic masculinity. He calls grown women “girls.” He talks about hitting on a “girl” in the presence of her boyfriend. He boasts of bar fights.

Baby steps. He still sounds young. If he’s spent ages in the incel subculture, it wouldn’t surprise me if he has a stopover in toxic masculinity on the way out. I find that once you have started self-discovery and self-analysis it’s actually quite difficult to stop it; I would hope that he’s going to see through toxic masculinity as well, which might well happen if he forms an actual relationship with a woman he genuinely likes.

To the OP: congratulations, it’s incredibly hard to start out on a new path when everyone around you is stuck in the old one. Like WWTH pointed out, you still have some work to do….but a lot of people never bother doing any of it. Some of the people who were your friends in your former community will remain sunk in hatred and self pity, blaming others for problems of their own making, for the rest of their lives. And – even if they never do any damage to anyone else – that’s really very sad. A waste of a life where they could have done anything.

numerobis
numerobis
2 years ago

Alan: your view is very American, in the sense of locking people up and throwing away the key.

Other counties have far lower crime rates by helping criminals get out of their life of crime. Rehabilitation (a formerly American idea) works.

I’m reasonably certain that rehabilitating former incels and other extremists is going to be required in any society that has any hope of reducing their threat.

ischemgeek
ischemgeek
2 years ago

Intellectual leap from Repub to Democrat? Not impossible. I did the Canadian equivalent. Came down to the same thing: Getting out of my small, racist, queerphobic, and sexist as fuck town and seeing the real world. Meeting actual black people and realizing they’re people like me (… seems fucking obvious but when you’re someone who literally never met a black person before age 18, it’s pretty easy to believe racist propaganda if that’s all you see). Likewise with FN people and other PoC. Seeing women do shit other than hospitality, nursing, teaching, or SAHM and be good at it. Meeting other queer people and realizing they’re genuinely nice people and I don’t have to hate myself because I’m not inherently a predatory because I’m not straight. And so on.

I think I was able to do it because I’ve always been the adventurous sort – I’ll do anything at least once even if it scares the hell out of me (and the far-right culture I grew up in was all about scaring the hell out of you). So when I got out of the town for uni, I wanted to try all of the things. When I tried all of the things, I wound up meeting all sorts of people I never would have otherwise. When I met actual people, my preconceived notions wound up running into the wall of reality at 90mph and smashing to little pieces.

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

However just because we’ve got one example of ‘Bub’ I’m still not of the opinion that incels generally can be reformed or that they’re potentially ok people underneath.

If they can make that journey on their own that’s great; but I don’t think they’re entitled to any help on the way, certainly not from their victims, or that they should get a medal just for achieving basic competence in human decency.

(Hope that blockquote works)
Alan: All incels probably not. Some, perhaps:
Those who just started to get in there have a better chance.
It is not that the victims have to help but actually help (that should come from former incels) is not a bad idea. It works for groups like Exit in Germany.
And yes some of this thinks like the guy is still quite a jerk, but not beeing that dangerous anymore is a good think.

Julia
Julia
2 years ago

The Incel community reminds me so much of the pro-ana communities I used to frequent when I was young, except with hate thrown in. The young women in those communities were all very isolated, feeling worthless and unloved, and we had black-and-white thinking, just like incels. Most of us were abused or neglected by our families and had no friends at school. So we went into these communities for mutual support and obsessed over the idea that we would be valued and loved if only we were thin enough. I literally believed that no guy would think anything of me if he knew of any single woman who was thinner than me.

Incels seem to think very similarly, except they throw in hate. That’s the part I don’t understand. In pro-ana, we all thought “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore I’m worthless.” The incels go the other way and think “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore women are worthless.”

I don’t understand why. I relate so much to incels’ problems, but I don’t understand how it turned into hate.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Julia

You can’t relate because you’re a decent human being.

It’s not: “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore I’m worthless.” for incels.

It’s: “No one loves me, no one wants to be friends with me, therefore they think I’m worthless. Fuck them all.”

Who?
Who?
2 years ago

This is by the way another think that is for me different to understand leap from Republican to Democratic, we have a lot of parties, chancing from one to the other is normal (perhaps a bit more remarkable when prominent partymembers do it.
If it is only regonal voting I can even vote for candidates of diferent partys.

Julia
Julia
2 years ago

@Shadowplay

But I keep seeing people like this Redditor talking like the hate is an inevitable result of the isolation and the echo chamber of obsessive black-and-white thinking. But if you look at pro-ana communities, you see young women who are just as disaffected as incels, who have come up with equally ridiculous ideologies to explain their problems. Good grief, we thought that all a man wants is to date the thinnest woman he can possibly find, and that all our problems would be fixed if we were thin enough.

So whatever makes incels the way they are, it definitely is not solely the isolation and the echo chamber of obsessive black-and-white thinking. If that was the case, the pro-ana women would be doing mass shootings too. There is something else.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
2 years ago

Toxic masculinity?

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Julia

To them (and only them – I’m not doing apologetics here) it is the inevitable result.

Anorexics blame themselves, right? It’s their fault they’re not thin enough?
Incels don’t blame themselves in the slightest – they blame anything and everything but themselves.

So the people in the proana forums turn their hate inwards on themselves, and commit violence on themselves. Incels turn it outwards on the world and commit violence on the world.

And a minor editing victory! Saw the spelling mistake before the timer ran out for once! 😛

Monzach
Monzach
2 years ago

What I find interesting and intriguing in the OP, or maybe I should say odd and troubling, is the emphasis put on going to bars and nightclubs in order to socialize. Now this is just my personal experience, but I find bars to be full of annoying drunk people and nightclubs just plain intolerable due to the loud music. Off course, this might be due to the fact that as I have a family history of alcoholism on both sides of the family (both of my grandfathers drank themselves to death), I haven’t touched alcohol for a while now, and haven’t drank more than a glass of wine in total since 2001. Then again, I haven’t been in any kind of romantic relationship since November 2004, so I’m probably not the best person to judge… ô.Ô

OT

I wrote a few weeks ago that I had applied for a job in my chosen field, namely translation. Well, I didn’t get it, although I did make it to the final stage of picking applicants. I’m still unemployed and on the state pension, which is better than things might otherwise be, but it would have been nice to have the sort of work that I went to university for.

/OT

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
2 years ago

Both incel and pro-ana are deeply rooted in misogyny, which is where I think the difference itself comes from. Pro-ana women aren’t much less violent, but they turn that violence on themselves and other women, which is kinda the definition of internalised misogyny, and they do it in a somewhat more subtle way. So mostly they’re pretty much the same, in that they’re both misogynistic and violent movements that actually harm women. I think the difference is only in style, not substance.

Elderly Neo-Hippie Resurgent Minion
Elderly Neo-Hippie Resurgent Minion
2 years ago

I think part of the reason these guys don’t see the reality of women is that they are fixated on a very few women, and the rest don’t count.

If a woman isn’t under 30 and hot, she is invisible, and therefore doesn’t exist.

Which is also somewhat true of the MGTOWs, who don’t seem to realize that women older than 30 actually date and marry, and that there are men who are actually interested in dating and marrying them.

It’s all SMV this and SMV that, but people aren’t commodities and attraction isn’t as easily quantifiable as they think it is.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

I think part of the reason these guys don’t see the reality of women is that they are fixated on a very few women, and the rest don’t count … It’s all SMV this and SMV that, but people aren’t commodities and attraction isn’t as easily quantifiable as they think it is.

Basically, seems like incels are trying to apply a 10-point SMV rating scale to a population consisting of just Stacey and Becky.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
2 years ago

Pseudonym:

One potential unintended consequence is that as the shock of atrocities like Toronto encourage people like this guy to leave, the Incel community is going to get more radicalised.

As the victims/survivors of incel brainwashing break away and leave, mostly perpetrators will be left. That’s a frightening thought.

The radical ones are there anyway, though maybe you mean they’d get even worse without regular feedback from moderate incels?

Then again, I suspect if anyone is getting out of incel community, it’s generally lurkers who aren’t much committed and only rarely comment. Their departure wouldn’t change the community dynamics much.

kupo
kupo
2 years ago

Some of the people who were your friends in your former community will remain sunk in hatred and self pity, blaming others for problems of their own making, for the rest of their lives. And – even if they never do any damage to anyone else – that’s really very sad. A waste of a life where they could have done anything.

Let’s not waste our empathy on people who want us dead or enslaved. It’s not sad for these little balls of hate. They have a choice in this. They made this decision. It’s sad for all the women in their lives. Their coworkers, their family, any women tgey encounter online. That’s who this is sad for. The women aren’t the ones choosing the negative social interactions. It’s literally impossible to be filled with that much hate and not deal some amount of damage to the women around them.

doomcup
doomcup
2 years ago

Having been that person who has gone from Republican to Democrat and now even further left, I can understand what a life altering thing it can be to change your deeply held beliefs.

Good on this guy for getting out. It’s not easy to get out of a toxic “bucket of crabs” community once you’re inside it (especially when you start out inside it, but that’s another story).

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

Went from “murderous rape terrorist” to “garden variety misogynist.” Well, I guess that’s a step in the right direction. No sarcasm there, but I don’t want to get too excited about it, for basically the same reason as WWTH. His viewpoint is still pretty much all self-centred. Doesn’t consider the agency or desires of other people he’s involved in. This said we don’t know a whole lot of the situation he’s in. Maybe he didn’t know that the woman he was talking to had a boyfriend right beside her, after all?

I dunno, I’m probably being overly generous with that. I hope the guy keeps walking in the direction he started, ’cause there’s a long way to go yet.

Also, hello to all the people I don’t know in this thread!

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

What I find interesting and intriguing in the OP, or maybe I should say odd and troubling, is the emphasis put on going to bars and nightclubs in order to socialize

After a night’s sleep, I think this is a big part of why I’m more skeptical than others about this.

You age out of the club and bar scene. Especially if you’re not naturally a social butterfly. There’s nothing to stop this guy from out to party, even on the rare chance that he still actually wants and has the energy to. But, 22 year old women don’t give their numbers or go home with that one weird older guy who’s clubbing like he thinks he’s a twentysomething. He’s not going to get spontaneous invites to after parties. Look at how Roosh got even more hateful and bitter than he already was when he aged out of the club scene. That’s when he remade himself as an alt-righter. If this guy doesn’t have something positive in his life other than whatever validation he’s getting from partying, he’s going to fall right back into the manosphere or maybe the alt-right.

I don’t want to fall into the trap that so much of the rest of the media is. Thinking that the only thing wrong with incels is that they’re lonely. It’s a hate group. Finding temporary validation with drinking and clubbing and finally getting laid is not enough to reform him.

Sorry to be the Debbie Downer. Maybe if the guy who wrote these comments came here and explained more, we’d find out he’d adjusted his attitudes towards women I’d feel better. Maybe he’s put in some hard work on himself internally and just didn’t talk about it. But realizing you can still get laid even if you aren’t ideally Chadlike isn’t it. As we’ve noted here in other threads about incel, men in relationships abuse their partners all the time. Misogyny is not caused by loneliness and sexual frustration. Don’t get me wrong, he’s more likely to change away from incel forums that in them. I’m just not giving out cookies because some guy logged off the internet and went to some bars.

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponized Vagina
2 years ago

@kupo

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not having a big sad for the poor misunderstood incels here. Certainly not at the expense of their victims.

I don’t feel sorry for them; I feel sad about them. There’s a difference.

They are so toxic and so unable to see it that it frustrates me enormously. It’s a waste of “being alive”. Even people who have been horribly hurt and abused can still find joy in life, can still think things are beautiful, but trying to describe “love” to some of the people I’ve seen posts about on here is like trying to describe “red” to someone colourblind, except colourblind isn’t a choice. That is the definition of “sad”. It’s a sad existence.

It still doesn’t mean I feel sorry for them though.

Shadowplay
2 years ago

@Violet

Word.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
2 years ago

WWTH, the OP might still be young enough for that scene. Could have fallen in with the Incel crowd when he was, like, 16; bailed out of it at 20 or 21 as part of a general going-to-college or something.

Doesn’t change my opinion on it, but I don’t think there’s a reason to think it’s a made-up story. It sounds like a believable set of events at least.

Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
2 years ago

I’m with Scildfreja and wwth I’m a bit skeptical of this person’s veracity. Even if the story is true, going from online incel mysoginy to what amounts to PUA? Not exactly the kinda bravery that gets me teary.

Off(ish)-topic, my f’in spel-czech keeps changing “incel” to “uncle”… 🙁

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