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alt-right incel men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny

Check out my piece in the Globe and Mail on shutting incels down online

Shut it

By David Futrelle

Check out my piece at the Globe and Mail today about shutting incel forums the hell down. Here’s a snippet:

[I]f appeals to shared humanity are out, is there anything else we can do? We may not be able to win back those who have plunged too deeply into the incel rabbit hole, but we can take steps to limit their ability to recruit new members. Incels aren’t born; they’re made. Sure, most new incel recruits start out embittered and lonely. But they are radicalized by their incel peers on a relatively small number of message boards devoted to the incel ideology.

So we should take a page from the anti-fascist activists who’ve done so much to kick back against the so-called “alt-right” over the last year – not only by confronting the fascists in the streets but also working diligently behind the scenes to take away their platforms online.

You can find the piece here.

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Shadowplay
3 years ago

The 2005 one were pretty bad. To be very kind indeed! 😛 Dwayne Johnson is STILL apologising for it.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

Popping in to say well done, David!

This thread is a bit weird tho. Corrective bullying? Entitled millennials?
If someone starts opining about how back in the day they went home when the street lights came on, or they drank water from the garden hose, I swear I’ll throw smashed avocado at them until they shut up. I’m not even a millennial (GenX, apparently) but ugh. It was not better in ye olden times.
Also, did we need the extremely detailed breakdown of that incel Twitter thread? Maybe I’m just extra grumpy tonight. I’ll go hug my millennial. Or is he GenZ? Stoopid @#@$%!@ generational labels.

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy
3 years ago

Ahahahaha I’m still here. Two pics that shd amuse mammotheers no end, if you’ve not already seen them:

comment image

comment image

Shadowplay
3 years ago

You had streetlights? Sheer luxury, I’m telling you. We had to make do with a match between the twenty of us.

😛

Sleep well Mish. 🙂

Christina Nordlander
Christina Nordlander
3 years ago

@Aging Chad: Other people have already said this, but to hell with that. I was bullied for a long time in school, and it traumatised me. It didn’t make me a better person. Besides, if you’re going to argue that there was less violent crime (or whatever) back when school staff turned a blind eye on bullying, I want to see statistics.

The “entitled millennial” post has already been dissected enough, I don’t need to add anything further.

Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
Weird (thumper of trumpanzees) Eddie
3 years ago

Some people seem to think we’ve reached parity now and an exclusive focus on women is no longer needed. That we can just be focused on “everyone” from here on out.

Feminism, particularly intersectional feminism is hardly an exclusive focus on women

Cindy
Cindy
3 years ago

As someone who was bullied a lot in middle and high school, I’ll just say that anyone who supports, condones or encourages bullying deserves to be fed their teeth.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@Cindy

While the sentiment is understandable, you may wish to rephrase that as it is against comments policy –

No threats or violent comments. …. This rule is in effect even when you are talking about vile misogynistic shitbags.

Step on all the legos is the generally accepted alternative.

It’s a part I have some difficulty with too. 😛

Cindy
Cindy
3 years ago

@Shadowplay

I apologize. It’s a little too late to rephrase it now, unfortunately… but yeah. Old chad can step on all the legos.

Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
Makroth - cowboy Jacobin from Hell
3 years ago

@Mish

Dress like the person you want to be: a posturing pretentious asshole.

Zatar
Zatar
3 years ago

Mish of the Catlady Ascendancy

Maybe I’m just extra grumpy tonight.

No your right. This is a strange thread and those things you brought up are all super weird.

Binjabreel
Binjabreel
3 years ago

Well my gut (and experience with how hilariously pathetic 4chan &a Reddit losers are) says that there’s a non-zero chance that at least a few of the randos who’re spouting off bizarre and horrific things are dudes from those places trying to get screenshots of feminists agreeing to terrible things.

Cats in Shiny Hats
Cats in Shiny Hats
3 years ago

Congratulations, David! It’s horrible why these articles are going mainstream, but it’s really nice that the public is finally seeing what we’ve known for years.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@Cindy

I usually wind up editing posts half a dozen times against the clock for that – it is something I do have problems with remembering!

It’s all good. 😀

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
3 years ago

I have one question. All this talk about “sexual parity” and “government sponsored visits to brothels” and “redistribution of sex” – those are all interesting phrases, but do the sex workers still have the right to say no to clients? Because my feeling is that all of these concepts kind of rely on them not being able to refuse.

While sex work can be framed as a health service (and personally I agree with this) doctors, nurses, even podiatrists all have the right to refuse to see patients who make them feel unsafe and I would expect the same rights for sex workers.

And if they have that right, that means they aren’t going to help incels of the Elliot Rodger mould, because they are going to be threatening, entitled, not very into consent, and quite possibly violent.

So…problem not solved.

OT: thinking about bullying. Here is a short film which reminded me of my own high school days as a frumpy fat virgin with a big mouth and the results thereof. It is a short documentary about a group of very cool little grungy proto-feminists in the 90s, whose high school classmates do not understand them at all. (Please note that some of the things their classmates say about them are horrible, so take care if you’re sensitive to that)

PeeVee the Tired
PeeVee the Tired
3 years ago

EJ and Scild,

Thanks for the information on Hanson! I always learn something on this blog.

Darling Mish,

“Why, back in my day…!”

*Cue the Four Yorkshiremen sketch; I can’t post vids on my phone.*

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

So a lot of people are pretty upset with my observation on peer-based social correction. I was inartful with my description – I’m talking about young men policing young men. I am well aware that adolescent girls practice this in a way that tend to leave mental scars (my daughters used to do shit to each other that left me in a spit foaming parental snit), but my own learning experience in a blue collar, left-labor dominated, urban Catholic all-male school left me with some impressions with regard to primate social behavior, pecking orders and peer correction that may have some light to shine on dealing with the toxicity of incels and the infernal stupidity of gamergate.

My take is that if a parent has a 14 year old son that is sitting inside on a video game console more than 2 hours a day, he should get signed up for soccer and the video game console should get a sledgehammer. Give the kid a flipphone. Make him learn a skill or trade, and confiscate the wifi after 9 pm.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
3 years ago

In theory I totally agree Chad. But sometimes parents are just so exhausted with their workload and other things going on in life that letting their kids stay on consoles is the only way they get some peace, quiet and respite. Especially single parents who have the burden of everything on their shoulders.

Mish, that photo. All of them white and all of them very vocal. Like you couldn’t shut those people up if you tried. What are they complaining about? That not everyone agrees with them. Boo hoo.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

I’m talking about young men policing young men. I am well aware that adolescent girls practice this in a way that tend to leave mental scars

I was a girl bullied severely by boys. At least one of the people objecting to your post is a man bullied by males. Only bullying done by girls leaves scars? Get out of here with this nonsense.

Once again: bullying does not punish misogyny, it enforces it.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

I just… Is here a lot of hand-waving away of misogyny and male entitlement in this thread or is it just me?

Binjabreel
Binjabreel
3 years ago

Nah, I played video games a lot. Like, a lot. Like, I was addicted to an online text-based RPG to the point that I was staying up all night and missing classes.

I turned out okay.

Being forced to join a sport will just make it worse. Organized sports are horrific when it comes to things like bullying or humiliation of unathletic kids. Getting benched constantly, getting harangued for missing a shot, that sort of thing is murder on a nerdy kid’s self image and will backfire spectacularly.

What helped me was finding outdoor activities *I* actually wanted to do. I started hiking more. That was great because there was no competition, no “right” way to do it. I also started training capoeira. That was also very good, because it required social interaction (it’s played like a game, with a partner) while not being competitive.

It also taught me to dance, and to play the drums and other Latin percussion.

But if I’d been forced to do it, I’d hate it.

And if I’d had my video game consoles/computer sledgehammered, I guaran-fucking-TEE I’d have built it into a massive persecution complex with a side of violent resentment.

Bakunin
Bakunin
3 years ago

@Aging Chad
Men policing men, or boys policing boys is what gets us into this situation. Do you honestly think this is a good plan?

You think Mitt Romney forcibly shaving a classmate’s head in school is good? Because that’s what you’re advocating. Patriarchy doesn’t pit men against women, it pits men against men, and your suggestion is worse than nothing.

Sure, someone hypothetically might get pushed away from a bad path, but I guarantee more gay, trans, and queer youth would suffer than anyone could possibly benefit.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Aging Chad,

The problem with your whole premise is that misogyny and misogynist violence are not new phenomena. Incel is a new phenomenon. But it’s just a new form of the same old misogyny. And when young males police each other’s behaviors, it’s usually not for the good. They usually encourage each other to engage in toxic masculinity.

ETA: I should have refreshed before posting. I see I’ve been ninja’d multiple times!

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
3 years ago

anneliese, “There is a guy at my job like this, he glares at me in kind of a funny way and hovers around all the waitresses. Bullying isn’t going to fix him. We have a situation where extremely socially awkward men live in a society where community and local social networks have collapsed. These are guys who depended on their mother’s arranging their marriages for the past few thousand years.”

Are you talking about South Asian guys at your work? Many of them still have arranged marriages.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Seriously, can we get an update to the comments policy to not allow pro-bullying talk? FFS.

Edit:

Are you talking about South Asian guys at your work? Many of them still have arranged marriages.

That’s a hell of an assumption to make.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I just… Is here a lot of hand-waving away of misogyny and male entitlement in this thread or is it just me?

This thread. Everywhere else. Wherever.

No matter times men state their motive for their crimes is misogyny, we will always be told to look elsewhere for the cause.

What I want to know is why? Why is it so hard to accept that misogynist violence is a thing? A thing in and of itself and not a symptom of some other problem?

My guess is that male entitlement and the dehumanization of women are so deeply entrenched in our culture that changing it would require just about everyone to look harshly at themselves and a lot of their attitudes. It would require most major religions to change. It would require people to listen to women. It would require companies to stop using commodified female bodies to sell their products. It would require parents to actively teach their sons to view women as equals. It would require companies to hire and promote women beyond the bare minimum required to not break the law. It would require men and boys to self police in the way he seems to wrongly believe they ever did. Etc, etc. It’s all just too hard. So we might as well close our eyes to the problem.

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

Bakunin, I never said there was a perfect solution. people are people – we’re analog and life is messy.

I will say, though, that allowing/encouraging kids to hit their bullies back (and not go spastic when that happens), to engage in more creative expressions outside of electronic means and encouraging them to involve themselves in both athletic and outdoor activities (not necessarily competitive ones) foster a more cooperative, more empathetic social environment overall.

You can gripe all you want about this not “teaching boys to leave toxic masculinity” (with whatever the pluperfect hell that entails), or you can engage in a little creative anthropology and engage in something that may have some effectiveness; it would seem to be in tune with our primate ancestry, and doesn’t involve spewing haranguing lectures at resentful adolescents.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Does anyone have a misogyny apologia bingo card. Because putting toxic masculinity in scare quotes, evo psych and nostalgia for a kind and gentle past that never existed have all got to be squares on it. Oh and calling the things women have to say “haranguing.” That’s a good one too.

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

OK, kupo. This gets me back to the point of the utility of The Great Firewall in Chinese society right now.

I kind of like that idea. You’ve got commercial websites and hook up websites in China – social media isn’t a thing like we do. Everything is monitored and the moment you try to organize stupidity, the government steps in. I kind of like that – the people seem pretty damned happy and content to engage in the normal activities of daily living, and don’t spend a lot of time online unless they’re looking for intimate partners.

No Putinist manipulation, no Trump, no incels. No random bits of mass violence.

No representation of opinion masquerading as fact, either.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
3 years ago

OK soooo…. I googled “incel arranged marriage” and…

https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/comments/7agpp5/incel_is_getting_an_arranged_marriage/

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

comment image

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

Then grant me a workable solution, weirwood. Give me something to work with besides “men should just be better” or “speeches about peacemaking and misogyny will solve all of this” that can actually have the potential of implementation.

I watched the second episode of the newest season of Handmaid’s Tale. That thing shook me to the core, because to my imperfectly left, old labor, neoliberal corporatist shill self, we are dangerously close to that precipice, and you guys are busy counting and shelving the cutlery on the Titanic as the ship is starting to list.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

to engage in more creative expressions outside of electronic means

Hey, guess what! A lot of kids are using electronic devices to be creative! You can write on an electronic device, did you know that? You can also art with one. Or RP. Or blog. Or make and edit videos. Or take and share photos.

And, um, is there any proof that there was less sexism violence toward women back in the days when bullying was more accepted? Ya know, I’m pretty sure there’s not.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

Well, thank goodness Aging Chad is here to explain the direness of the situation to us silly ladies.

idli sambar revolution
idli sambar revolution
3 years ago

“These are guys who depended on their mother’s arranging their marriages for the past few thousand years.”

Well South Asians have relied on that, and still do to a large extent, so that’s why I asked. Arranged marriages haven’t been a thing in western cultures for a long time so “for the past few thousand years” gives impression that it was going on up until recently, like within those guys’ lifetimes.

I do think that arranged marriages *could* possibly be a route to consider for some incels, but who would arrange them and what women would go for that are some pertinent questions that come up. Not feasible in the west (outside of some immigrant communities who do it within their own socio-cultural networks).

Read the link above. A guy contemplating arranged marriage AND “escortcel” simultaneously. Like, marrying and cheating.

I’ll just repost it here since it’s relevant and delete the above one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelTears/comments/7agpp5/incel_is_getting_an_arranged_marriage/

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

I remember personally correcting people – even friends – when they were acting like jerks to women around them. I also remember seeing my acquaintances do it as well.

Were there places where it was worse? Absolutely, but it wasn’t universal.

And I’m sorry, but I’m really, at my core, an analog guy and am not impressed with much electronic “art”. There’s something to be said to selecting your photo carefully because film is expensive and you only have so many shot. Visual arts have to be done slowly, deliberately.

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

Then grant me a workable solution, weirwood

She did exactly that. Holy fucking shit, listen to women.

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

Lindsay, as I said, all I’m looking for here is a solution as opposed to complaints. I personally think it is dire, and I hope you do to.

Dire requires action. Dire requires more than just words. Dire requires that the solutions be something reasonable with a high degree of likely societal acceptance.

Aging Chad
Aging Chad
3 years ago

That’s not a solution, kupo – that’s a bumpersticker.

I’m talking about something that can be implemented in schools, organized activities and workspaces.

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
3 years ago

@Chad

To add (again) to what everyone else is saying re: bullying. Boys policing boys is how the young ones are trained to conform to patriarchy – they go along with it, or they are made miserable. It’s a simple carrot and stick thing, you get in-group privileges for being a sexist prick and nonstop harassment otherwise.

Growing up as a “boy” meant I didn’t quite get the pure horror of the girlhood bullying experience, but it was really bad – and it came in homophobic/transphobic, antisemitic, and ableist flavors too! With beatings, constant insults, gossip, and sexual harassment! And what wasn’t about me being autistic or looking Jewish, was always about me being small, femme, dorky, and having weird opinions about gender.

TBH, my high school experience was how I learned that most male humans are shits.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

“Young people are doing it all wrong!!!!!” Bleahrg. Same old same old.

Anyway… in the US, sexual assault and domestic violence have been on a general downward trend since the 90s. Not sure how this fits with your idea that current sexism the fault of the internet/videogames/computers.

Who?
Who?
3 years ago

Even if soccer is a great sport, playing for a team means often more presure.
If a kid is only playing videogames somethink can be wrong and parents should perhaps try fo find out, why. The idea to destroy aka punish the kid for beeing different is one of the worst ideas I can imagine. With 14 kids should be exspected to become their own person.
Help kids, don’t be their enemy!!!
I think the discusion if bullying is worse by boys or girls is rubish.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

I think the discusion if bullying is worse by boys or girls is rubish.

Yeah, can we get back to Aging Chad insinuating that only bullying by girls is scarring? There’s some unexamined sexism right there.

IgnoreSandra - Lady of Smoke

Goddess. I leave for four days and now there’s an aging hipster using the latest social issue to complain about how this generation lives differently than he did and apologize for bullies and recommend being cruel to your kids?

Jesalin
Jesalin
3 years ago

Dire requires that the solutions be something reasonable with a high degree of likely societal acceptance.

So I guess fixing toxic masculinity is out then…

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@LindsayIrene
He’s shooting out anti-feminist talking points so fast it’s hard to keep up.

LindsayIrene
3 years ago

@kupo

And mansplainin’! Don’t forget the mansplainin’!

Kevin
Kevin
3 years ago

@ Aging Chad

No random violence in China ? Really ? I’ll raise you yesterday’s high school stabbing in Mizhi County, Shaanxi Province, China that has so far left nine dead. It’s not the only mass stabbing of which news has come out of China in recent years either. A bit more openness on the ‘net in China might have raised enough red flags to reduce the risk of such things.

Josh
Josh
3 years ago

“The government can shut down any attempt to organize stupidity”

Oh yeah, god forbid anyone in China be able to affect social change…

Cyborgette
Cyborgette
3 years ago

@Chad

The PRC is a totalitarian regime. The government openly kills people for political dissent. It keeps political prisoners on retainer to kill, so that their organs can be harvested to save the lives of the rich and privileged. We are talking about some Larry Niven level dystopian shit there. There are “secret” prisons in the middle of public parks.

They didn’t get a Trump because Xi Janping is already Trump. On amphetamines. With more intelligence, more ruthlessness, more direct power, and worse people around him.

There are scholars who consider modern China to be the gonzo capitalist end-stage that the United States is heading towards. Yeah, I’m gonna say you don’t know what you’re talking about.