By David Futrelle
I‘ve got a piece up on the Elle website about Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian and the dangers of future “incel” terrorism.
Here’s a snippet from it:
[T]he incel subculture … takes the bitterness and sadness we sometimes feel when faced with sexual and romantic frustrations and turns this misery into a mode of being. …
Incels hate women, yes, but they hate themselves nearly as much, and the incel subculture not only encourages both kinds of hatred, but it teaches them that there is no way out. This is what makes the incel subculture so poisonous to everyone it touches. It has transformed young men dealing with depression — or simply the ordinary unhappiness of life — into a veritable underground army of angry, bitter misogynists who feel they have nothing to live for and have no hope of improving their lives in what they see as our “gynocentric” society.
If these young men aren’t stopped, there will be more horrors like what we saw this week in Toronto, if not worse. In the forums on incel hangout Incels.me, some are already hailing Minassian as a hero, and looking forward to the next wave of incel terror attacks.
You can find the piece here.
@Violet
I’m really sorry I came across that way, not at all what I intended.
It’s hard, I feel I know you and others so well, I always read the comments, this is a very intelligent and insightful forum. But I appreciate I don’t comment much so you don’t know me from Adam. And when we don’t know someone we do tend to fill in a lot between the lines, that may or may not be there.
I think I’ve discussed the Principle of Charity with Scildfreja before, and when I do venture into forums I try and be mindful of it, but I don’t always succeed. (She, on the other hand, is superhuman in that regard!). On the other hand, in feminist spaces we can give too much rope, and we get tired of being burnt.
So on that note, and hopefully a happier one, a bit about me, so you all get to know me better.. Single mum of two, my daughter’s 18 (God help me) my son 13 (God, send wine!). Two incredibly grumpy cats the pair of them, a pug puppy, so darn ugly which strangely makes him so darned cute! And to add to the menagerie, a turtle, who has absolutely no personality to describe, world’s most useless pet but he’s still family 😉
As I said activism is my life, especially women’s issues. It’s exciting and infuriating at the same time, hence I’m not a frequent contributor, there’s always learning to be done, so I read a lot, but don’t always have the energy to keep “talking” outside of work.
It is exhausting, so we have to make sure we look after ourselves. We might both need that reminder today 🙂
*Sigh*
@Sigh
Nice to meet you. I am a 43 year old research biologist, no children, one fluffy ginger cat and a small but opinionated tortoise. I live with my boyfriend who’s a reporter for the local paper.
Yes. I think I’m going to take a news break this weekend.
@ Violet
A tortoise! I’ve always wanted one but you can’t get them here. And there I was suggesting his cousin was the most useless pet! Sincerest apologies to your opinionated tortoise 🙂
Nice meeting you too, I’ve appreciated the chat. Enjoy your weekend 🙂
@*sigh*
Alright my post came out more aggressive than I meant it to be. Sorry, let me take a breath and step back.
What I’m getting out of your post is that you don’t think that disscussions on things such as beauty standards for men should be shut down on these forums, because there should be a feminist space for these discussions. Which fair enough.
What I was getting at was that there’s a big wide world of feminism outside of this particular forum, and there’s no reason to insist that those discussions have to happen here on these forums, for there to be “space” in feminism for them to happen.
And I was suggesting that if it is important to you, that you could be that feminist to go provide that space, elsewhere.
No, you were just setting off my “troll” senses a little. Sorry about that.
Sorry if it sounds like I’m trying to speak for others, but my honest opinion from reading here over the years is that these kinds of conversations tend to be unproductive on these forums.
As to your questions to me, I’m running out the door, and I want to do them some justice, so I’ll answer them tonight.
Yes, please take care of yourself and have a nice day today. 🙂 I have a date with my psychiatrist later, so wish me luck! ?
If this is the case, it reinforces what I already suspect. That incels are not angry or even said that they can’t date, they’re angry that don’t live up to the alpha male ideal. It’s not the sex, love or even emotional support of women they crave. It’s male approval. Because if a man wants a pretty virgin who is willing to devote herself to him, being a devout Christian is the best way to make that happen. The thing is, she’ll probably want to be married before they have sex. Waiting for marriage and staying away from clubs and bars with their excessive drinking and loose women in favor of devoutly attending church is not exactly what’s going to make you look cool to men outside of conservative Christian circles.
Which leads me into why I don’t think feminists are ever going to be able to devote enough time and energy to men’s issues to solve them.
Set aside for a minute that feminists already sympathize with male rape and abuse victims more than the general population. Already support men who don’t want to conform male gender roles. Already support men seeking mental health care instead of mocking them for not “manning up” and dealing with it on their own.
Set aside for a minute that as Violet said, it’s insulting to expect us to devote a lot of time and energy to men and their problems when they aren’t expected to return the favor. And that asking us to be men’s emotional caretaker is a huge reinforcement of patriarchy.
Feminist women are simply unable to solve men’s struggles with the male gender role in our culture because the root of that struggle is other men. Toxic masculinity and the “alpha male” ideal comes from them. Women can reinforce it, but it’s mainly reinforced by other men. What exactly are we supposed to about it? Men who desperately crave the approval of other men are not likely to be fixed by sympathy and support from women. On a systemic level there’s really not much we can do. Men simply have to start convincing other men to be more supportive of each other in non-toxic ways. That’s the only fix.
The problem both with the manosphere and people with good intentions who genuinely want to help men struggling with toxic masculinity is they spend most of their focus on women. What we’re doing wrong. How we can and should be helping more. How feminism should focus on men. There’s very little talk of how men can look inward a bit and support each other. When someone like Terry Crews tries to do it, other men immediately attack him for it. What as a feminist am I supposed to do about that, really?
If you’ve been lurking here for four years, then you’d know that we’ve talked about these issues exhaustively. I mean, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that your intent is good, but come on. I’m also wondering how pay gap is a men’s issue. Are they sad they have more money than us now?
@WWTH
I think there is a debate happening on masculinity. It’s somewhat under the radar, but men are discussing how to be men and there are some fascinating insights on gender coming out.
Here in the UK, it’s been bubbling along for a little while. Grayson Perry and Robert Webb have both done interesting work assessing what “being a man” means to them. There’s a lot of journalists, artists, film-makers exploring it at the moment. I have had some very, very interesting conversations with male friends recently; one has just become a father, and we talked for quite a long time about how he wants to be able to teach his little boy how to be in touch with his feelings and express himself, and there is just no role model for him to do that. There’s no pattern in society for it, and his own father was terrible at emotions which means my friend has struggled himself, and he’s scared he will fail his son. I can’t imagine having that kind of conversation with a straight man even ten years ago.
TBH, in some ways things feel hopeful to me. I think there are a lot of men looking at some of the aspects of traditional masculinity and thinking “I don’t fancy that”. I know there are incels and PUAs and a lot of shit swirling around, but there is also some good stuff.
And of course we cannot forget the sterling work done by one David Futrelle!
I agree with this 100%
In the social circles I run in, David Harbour (the sheriff from Stranger Things) is considered hotter than Chris Evans, so, yeah?
There’s always a lot of blather from misogynists about how men are attracted to signs of fertility in women, but, no, they do not like physical evidence that a woman has actually borne a child, even though past performance is the best predictor of future performance. It’s almost like they’re full of shit!
WWTH:
Well, I was just casually guessing. I get the impression that incels tend to deliberately focus their idea of “attractive man” to whatever they personally aren’t, so they can see themselves as disadvantaged. Then they have some trouble achieving a consensus (if they ever try that) on what exactly constitutes an “attractive man”.
I was thinking the kind of conservative Christian who grows up sheltered, then goes to a secular liberal college and suddenly feels hated and persecuted because he never learned to cope with being in ideological minority. If he’s both Christian and asshole enough to be an incel, he’s probably an unbearably preachy and slut-shaming kind of Christian.
Indeed, maybe he’s not into church dating because he thinks it’s beneath him to play nice in front of prospective mother-in-laws. Maybe he doesn’t want to be a good, responsible husband. Maybe he couldn’t even pretend he has potential for that.
Or maybe I completely misunderstood what “Christcel” means.
@ Violet
Are… are you me? I guess there’s a lot of this going around, as you say. No, wait, I don’t live with a tortoise. Phew. Life is confusing enough without duplicate me’s.
@Dawn
I do get it. I really do. Apologies are appreciated, but really, don’t sweat it.
Thanks, now I see what you mean. I guess the opinion attributed to me has morphed a bit, from my perspective. Initially I commented to support David’s statement that beauty standards are relevant in terms of the toxic environment of incel forums, and how they utilise societies value in personal appearance to isolate and radicalise young men to scapegoat and victimise women. I really don’t see that as a “men’s issue”. I didn’t appreciate feeling my thought becoming “we must talk about men!”, feeling shamed and told to go elsewhere.
However, that said, I appreciate the point you’re making, and I do disagree with the principle, so I’ll respect your needs for this forum and not comment on men’s issues again.
And here’s the crux, in my opinion. Others made similar comments to mine, talked about body standards, why incels become incels, “men’s issues”. They were familiar faces, no ill intent, or perhaps just “misinformed” intent attributed to them.
You talk about what can be as easily perceived as “men’s issues” all the time, which is one of the reasons I am really curious about your answer to my questions 🙂 This whole conversation has really got me thinking – where is the line between women’s issues and men’s issues? And the line between advocacy for women, and when men’s intersects with that? (I’m not sure that last question makes total sense of what’s sloshing about in my head, forgive me).
You too! Do you need luck with your psychiatrist? Nah, you’ll be fine 🙂
@WWTH
I’m missing your point in the second sentence, I think, but as to the first – exactly!
Sorry, short-short-shorthand. They’re sad we have more time with kids, that’s “priceless” apparently, and they’re all universally working 80 hour weeks, dontcha know? Hence, the pay gap (when it’s real) is really about the oppression of men. That’s the MRA version, anyway.
There is an issue for men that comes out of addressing the pay gap, I’d say it’s an issue for men, for women, and that’s about access to parental leave, domestic leave, annual leave etc. (That’s still a short explanation, happy to explain what I mean further if that doesn’t make any sense, just that’s ‘derailing’ even further, so your call).
@WWTH
Someone going by ContraPoints did a debunking of Roosh V’s book a while back on her Youtube channel, and reached a similar conclusion; she likened him to Mozart’s Don Giovanni.
…
Re the mention of TERFism that came up. I’m going to try and keep this short, because it’s close to home and I don’t want to take up too much space. But… I kind of have to say that, if it were just about cisgender women having their own trans-excluding spaces, I think that’d be legit. The problem is more that hardline anti-trans folks keep extending it into policing our existence, advocating against our rights, and generally slandering us as all malicious, brainwashed, predatory, etc. Or alternatively saying it’s “for our own good”, which IMO is a red flag for patriarchal thinking if ever there was one.
Though “men invading women’s spaces” is a common anti-trans phrase, I didn’t get that message from people using it here, and IMO it’s also a real thing. (Aziz Ansari, Joss Whedon, Hugo Schwyzer…) YMMV.
Okay, *finis.*
…
@Brandy
A bit belated (sorry), but: what you describe re loneliness is part of why a lot of us mainly date and befriend other trans people. There’s some similar stuff in the Jewish community (which I’m also part of). Not always for the better, but, this is the issue of minority or marginalized people interacting with those who don’t understand where they come from; and it’s very real, and can hurt a lot.
But IMO don’t despair 🙂 Especially now with the Internet, it’s easier for us to find friends and support than it used to be. And there are a lot of us floating around.
…
Re men having to fix their own shit, and whining about it. Oh gods, please come on, this is not hard.
If you’re really “feminist”, you have books you can recommend and cite. You have articles and videos you can link to in emails and whatever. You have clout with your male friends and family, you have libraries, you have Google and DuckDuckGo, you have soooooooooo much space to talk without being dismissed or abstracted away. Use those things. Confront people gently, confront them firmly, confront them with love, confront them jovially over a backyard barbecue, whatever just do it.
Don’t offload the work onto women. We’re already tired and up to our necks in about fifteen million different ways. Be a mensch, don’t mooch.
(Especially if you have a college degree, or do technical writing, or have ever written a report for your job, or… you get the idea. Come ON. This Is Not Hard.)
Edit: wow, I get so far behind this conversation so fast.
Lumipuna,
I guess the meaning of “Christcel” is going to have a remain a mystery until the next time we get an incel troll. And there will be a next time. We all know it.
Violet the Vile,
I do hope men can figure out how to talk about toxic masculinity and how patriarchy and capitalism hurt men in some ways. Sadly, even when they start out all right, they tend to drift into MRA territory. Like with Good Men Project. It seems like sometimes men can grasp that toxic masculinity can hurt men, but they don’t always grasp women aren’t going to be able to fix it for them and that patriarchy, while it can be a double edged sword, does still privilege men quite a bit. It seems like many men want to lose the parts of patriarchy that hurt them but still want to hang on to their privilege and are cool with feminism as long we do feminism in a way that doesn’t ever make them uncomfortable or feel emasculated. I dunno. Hopefully it’s on the horizon. We’ll see.
Sigh,
I guess my point is that we discuss the origins and motives of the manosphere and male aggrievement a lot and we discuss men’s issues a lot. So I’m not sure why the need to jump in and say there should be space carved out for men’s problems here if you’ve been reading for years.
Cyborgette,
I don’t even think the discussion in this thread is comparable at to TERFs wanting trans women excluded from feminism at all. Since trans women are women, any demands or requests for inclusivity are not an encroachment on women’s spaces. There’s also a big difference between a marginalized group seeking inclusivity and a privileged group imposing on a marginalized group.
I do apologize for inadvertently using a TERF dog whistle. I’d be happy to rephrase the “women’s spaces” rhetoric if you or anyone else wants me to.
Stacey and Chad? So incels never graduate High School? Are they 40 something men who keep reliving High School in their heads? why? After you graduate 12 grade it’s time to move on.
I have been busy the last few days, and have missed a lot! I’m just gonna dive bomb some stuff here.
yaaaas
That’s why it’s called Patriarchy and not just Society. It’s about a very male-oriented competition written on a very large scale. They aren’t winning the competition and they’re very angry about it. Women aren’t competitors, they’re a way to score points – and these MRAs have decided to get upset that women aren’t handing out points equally to all the mens.
:hsssss:
“It’s not that I’m hateful, women don’t like me ’cause I’m too moral.”
“It’s not that I’m hateful, women don’t like me ’cause they only date white people.”
All the good ground on this has been covered really. I mean, sure, from a strategic perspective, being able to fix the problems that give rise to misogyny would be great, and would help women. But!
– We only have so much time and effort, and putting that towards men primarily is pretty directly counter-feminist. Helping women needs to come first, and that’s a big enough job that it should get the lion’s share of our efforts.
– That’s an impossible goal anyways. Every time women accomplish something, the goal-posts move. It’s never good enough for the Patriarchy. Like, if we could somehow end the issue of men’s suicides being more lethal, that would do nothing to reduce misogyny or create more equality. There will always be something else to blame women for, because the reason doesn’t matter, the hierarchy does.
Not intending this as hostile, my ducks! Reading it again it seems like it might be, I’m sorry if that’s the case. I don’t know how to say it without breathing a little fire, though. Men have issues – legitimate issues, that are worth fixing! But they’re self-inflicted. Us trying to fix them has to come after we put the proverbial knife into the Patriarchy.
” It seems like many men want to lose the parts of patriarchy that hurt them but still want to hang on to their privilege ”
Yet they accuse women of wanting Feminism and the privileges of traditional chivalry at the same time.
@Cyborgette
Thanks for the comment. I’ve been in transition for just a few years and one of the shifts I am just now making is being able to truly own being a part of the LGBTQ community and thinking of that community as “us”.
I think that it was only after being accepted by my most of my circle of friends from pre-transition that I was able to make this switch. I did some socializing with other trans people from my support groups before I was out, and this wasn’t uplifting at that time — I needed to come out and be accepted by my existing friends before I could really embrace my new community. I don’t know if that makes sense but that’s been my journey so far.
@WWTH
Oh wow no sorry, I was not trying to imply that you meant it that way! I figured pretty quickly that you weren’t anti-trans. You don’t have to rephrase anything, and I’m super sorry if I came across as hostile!
The way I put it there is because I try to be diplomatic about cis women’s concerns. Somewhat out of honesty on my own positions; more out of desire to broach this stuff without getting accused of aggression, or of taking up too much space.
That said, one of my friends just sent me this Twitter thread, and well
https://twitter.com/mrgnptts/status/989844313113841665
The logic of what the poster says makes sense, and scares the hell out of me.
@Brandy
Thanks 🙂 That’s very different from my experience, and still totally legit.
(Short version, I became a very close friend of a trans person, and started realizing how much I was like them and how much I fit in with their other friends. Fast forward a year, we’re partners and I have a community; I pretty much didn’t have really close friends until this happened, because it felt like nobody was on the same wavelength so to speak.)
Cyborgette,
Don’t worry, you weren’t hostile at all! I just want to be careful because I know even cis feminists who are not TERFs still have a ways to go on trans issues and on being inclusive. So, if any talk of women’s spaces being invaded by men is coming off as TERFish, I’d want to stop doing it.
IMHO, the only aspect of feminism that by its nature would exclude trans women are things like abortion rights. Any reproductive health issue involving uterus and vagina. Even then, the denial of access to proper health care is an intersectional issue because it does happen to women, LGBTQ people, disabled people, mentally ill people, fat people and other groups I’m probably forgetting.
And that thread was a good read.
And when they’re not acting like those mom’s bods are disgusting because it may have had contact with another penis, they’re fetishizing it. See: MILF/GILF porn.
Two different sides, same shit spectrum. Some dudes think that “I’d use your body to pleasure my penis!” Is somehow an ultra feminist compliment because they’re showing they’re not “shallow”.
To any dudes who might think this way: You finding someone attractive is not a compliment. You’re still gross. Just for different reasons.
Sorry if the spelling is off on this, I’m typing it on my phone and the screen is badly cracked. I’m ordering a replacement screen today.
@WWTH
I guess my point is that you discuss the origins and motives of the manosphere and male aggrievement a lot and you discuss men’s issues a lot. So I’m not sure why the need to jump in on comment/s about a comment critiquing the article and say there should be no space for men’s problems here, it’s derailing, pro-MRA, hijacking women’s issues to focus on men, whataboutthemenz, I’ll go if you do, and go somewhere else if you want to talk about what [we perceive] as men’s issues. And I shouldn’t have to explain how offensive it is to feel I, or anyone here, is being referred to as “the meninists on this thread”.
Perhaps re-read page one and rethink whether yourself, or anyone else, shot first and asked questions later, and perhaps you’ll understand why I’ve followed up with the comments I have. If I’m a troll, I’m a pretty crap one.
@Weatherwax
I’m glad we aren’t duplicates too. Things are weird enough already 🙂
@*Sigh*
Dude. DUDE. Please put aside your anger and defensiveness for a minute. WWTH is not the one who needs to reread stuff; you’re completely missing their points.
@WWTH
Hmm. I’m not going to lie, usually when I see the words “men invading women’s spaces” my brain assumes “Oh, TERFs talking about trans women”. But YMMV, I’m only one trans woman myself (and one with bias at that, since I was unlucky and got into some TERFy stuff back before I transitioned).
Agreement ^10^100 re healthcare being an intersectional issue. So many layers to that, with this society’s evil and broken concepts of ownership threaded through all of them.
And thank you re the thread 🙂
@Paradoxical Intention
Oh gods, ain’t THAT real. I can think of a couple big-name novels by “feminist” men that were basically long, self-indulgent exercises in such “thinking”.
Is it just me or is written into stone somewhere that on any post about a man killing women there will be people what about the menzing. I swear I have seen it on every single one for the past 5 years.