By David Futrelle
I‘ve got a piece up on the Elle website about Toronto van attack suspect Alek Minassian and the dangers of future “incel” terrorism.
Here’s a snippet from it:
[T]he incel subculture … takes the bitterness and sadness we sometimes feel when faced with sexual and romantic frustrations and turns this misery into a mode of being. …
Incels hate women, yes, but they hate themselves nearly as much, and the incel subculture not only encourages both kinds of hatred, but it teaches them that there is no way out. This is what makes the incel subculture so poisonous to everyone it touches. It has transformed young men dealing with depression — or simply the ordinary unhappiness of life — into a veritable underground army of angry, bitter misogynists who feel they have nothing to live for and have no hope of improving their lives in what they see as our “gynocentric” society.
If these young men aren’t stopped, there will be more horrors like what we saw this week in Toronto, if not worse. In the forums on incel hangout Incels.me, some are already hailing Minassian as a hero, and looking forward to the next wave of incel terror attacks.
You can find the piece here.
@WWTH:
http://media.giphy.com/media/9CvWZTFXyNBio/giphy.gif
@WWTH
The whole comment beginning
What she said. Quoted for truth.
EVERYONE! *Mind blown* Apparently a WOMAN started the incel movement! https://www.elle.com/culture/news/a34512/woman-who-started-incel-movement/ Her intention, though, was just for people who felt really lonely and unwanted to have a place on the internet where they could support each other and talk about stuff. Pretty soon, though, angry entitled dudes started flowing in…
@ReflectedShadows
Uh, I don’t think anyone has been suggesting that being an incel is an excuse for anything. I haven’t seen anyone say things like “oh, he may have fantasized about raping and burning women but he’s a wristcel so we have to see things from his point of view”. What have you been reading?
In my opinion, a big reason incels insist they are ugly and therefore will never find love is because they see unattractiveness as their ace in the hole for winning any incel-related argument.
Women, an incel’s argument goes, want only handsome guys. He doesn’t have a girlfriend, so that’s how he knows he’s ugly. And his situation is hopeless because women want only good-looking men.
On the Internet, no one knows that (despite your fulminations to the contrary), you’re an average-looking guy.
@Kupo
Apologies if that sentence seemed as though it intended to shame, on reflection a poor choice of words and it deflected from the point I was trying to make.
I don’t see anyone interrupting feminists talking about issues that disproportionately affect women to talk about men. I see a discussion on a particular sentence in David’s article, about incels and why they do what they do. I’m sorry if my comment wasn’t clear.
How do you stop it without understanding it? I can’t accept they’re just horrible people turning into worse men, then the whole thing seems futile, and death and destruction inevitable.
(Which is why my name is Sigh, this all too often feels devastatingly, tragically futile).
Sigh :/
@weirwoodtreehugger: Preach it, sister! There’s a reason it’s called FEMinism, not egalitarianism.
@Marion Wollstonecraft
I see you, I hear what you’re saying. Thank you. What “Male Fantasies” describes sounds horrifyingly familiar; I’ll give it a read.
Is there a reason why we are specifically picking out “incels” and separating them out from misogynistic men who do manage to have relationships with women? These men seem to have the exact same ideology and attitude as men who beat or murder their wives and girlfriends, or serial killers who charm women to lure them into a sense of safety.
Digging through to Mark Lepine’s rampage in 1989, (guy was a raging misogynist and awkward around women) makes me wonder just how far back Incel violence goes.
@Quantum
With their “saints” the line towards a sect is difficult to see.
Sarcasm? I think when they make saints it is very much like a sect or cult. definately it is a echo chamber and they brainwash together each other.
If I can offer my perspective as a casual reader of this blog:
I noticed that David’s article contained a few drops of sympathy for incels as he discussed their misery and path toward stewing in self-hatred and inceldom. The vitriol directed towards incels found in this blog was largely absent, and in all fairness was probably difficult to convey in a submission to a mainstream publication which had to explain a fringe group to a mass audience.
The incongruence with the tone of his regular posts led me to speculate there would be tension in this comment section as commentators would seek to reframe his article and seek clarification.
I think that in general there is a split in the comment section between two sides which are usually sympathetic to one each other (ignoring trolls) which I would describe as
1. militant feminism, which tries to stay on message and
2. bystander feminism, which freely muses about all sorts of issues that David’s posts inevitably bring up.
The pitfall of the latter is that it often drifts into empathy for incels and their ilk and leads to politically suspect messaging. It also betrays a certain distance to the harm toxic masculinity does.
I don’t want to take sides, I think it’s all about what sort of comment section people are comfortable with. Nevertheless, I think a comment section which consists only of the former might be somewhat one-note. Take WWTH’s celebrated posts in this thread, they are only possible in reaction to off-message musings by the second group.
Kevin:
All the way back, I would guess. The name is relatively recent, as is these guys banding together into a movement, but lone guys have probably been doing this since before we were human.
@itsabeast
I think I see where you’re coming from.
Right now, 1/3 of eating disorders are dx in men, and yeah, some men don’t get treatment because of myths about eating disorders, such as the idea that eating disorders are a female thing. So yes, society in general (men AND women) needs to accept that body image is a problem for men as well, and that it should offer those men support.
My problem is when this complaint about male body image is made towards feminists, and not towards society in general (which may not be what you meant to do). If I say that the pressure on women is worse, it’s not because I want to win at the oppression olympics, it’s because the pressure on women feels overwhelming. As a feminist woman I just don’t have the energy or shits to take out men’s trash for them.
So men, you have my support, but please, take out your own damn trash.
I’m a transwoman, and have been struggling recently with the idea that my marriage may end because of it. I’m not awful looking, but I don’t meet traditional standards of feminine appearance, and there’s one tiny difference between my body and that of most women. Well, not that tiny. (Apologies to Nathan Lane/ Albert Goldman)
As I think about what that would mean for me, being alone and different and truly despondent about not being able to meet someone for a meaningful relationship, I do feel “undatable”. Who is out there looking for someone like me for a relationship and if they’re out there, how on earth would we find each other?
But I cannot imagine ever being angry at the world for not producing a new partner for me and I cannot imagine walling myself off from the world in the company of other despondent people, hoping that their company would validate my feelings.
Other posters have the right of it. Many people feel this way, that they’re inadequate and won’t ever find the kinds of companionship that they’re seeking. Among this larger group, self-described incels have made one set choices among many about how to handle these feelings, and their solutions are rooted in male entitlement. Some have turned to horrific violence. I don’t feel pity for them.
Greetings, y’all,
Yeah, I guess you’re seeing a lot of new faces (virtually). I started a comment here yesterday, after I read one of David’s posts that is currently getting a lot of attention. I couldn’t follow through by submitting it, however, because this eruption of incel-based bile into the “real world” has left me feeling overwhelmed.
But I’ve been lurking here for quite a while, and actually introduced my 16-y-o daughter to the site when trying to discuss some of my fears for the dangers that thrive in dark corners of the internet. Coming here is difficult for me; on the one hand, reading some of this vile, venemous, toxic ideology in the MRA/PUA/alt-right/incel/4chan sewers leaves me feeling sick. On the other hand, reading the amazing, articulate responses of this commentariat gives me hope that there is a critical mass of better angels in the world.
So thanks, I guess, for your relentless, sharp-eyed, perceptive truth-speaking. You guys help me climb back out of the depths. I’d name names, but there are so many helpful commenters here that this would be a long list indeed! You aren’t kitties, obviously, but your clear-eyed and articulate truth is every bit as helpful as brain-bleach.
So if you do notice a lot of new names/faces, part of it might be that the current reality has encouraged some of us to step up and say: you rock. This website actually makes a positive difference.
@wwth
Yes indeed.
There’s this thing where feminists are expected to organise male equal rights as well. I notice this every year on International Women’s Day.
“No-one ever does anything for International Men’s Day,” they grumble, and then sit back and expect it to be organised for them. Dudes, I suppose the women could organise International Men’s Day, but don’t you think it would be kind of missing the point? It’s your day, not ours!
Just like this debate that does need to be had, about body standards for men and how men feel about them, is not one I can join in with. I can support men who are working on this – I can be an ally to them, like some men are allies to feminism – but this is a conversation you guys need to have with each other, not with me and if I was to womansplain male body issues to you that would be patronising and I would also probably be wrong.
It’s all part of the ingrained thing that women are expected to do all the emotional work. Including making the dominant, oppressive gender feel better about being oppressive.
TBH, while we are a long way from this, I actually think men should be addressing incel and rape culture. It’s framed as a women’s problem when it isn’t one. The effects of it, and the actions taken by men as a result of it, are problems for women. But the actual thing itself, that is fair and square a problem centred in masculinity and should be part of men’s ongoing debate about what masculinity is and what it means to them – which, once again, I can only support because it is not my place to have a vote in that debate, any more than it is men’s place to decide what “being a woman” is.
A bit long, but I guess my point is: this is a feminist website, so I am not particularly interested in hearing variations on “but what about the men u sexists” every five seconds. Men’s body image is a valid discussion for sure, but it’s not one to have here.
I feel like the meninists on here should make their own website. For example, http://www.whatabouttehmenz.com, where they can talk until they’re blue in the face about virgin shaming and body shaming and male circumcision and abused/battered husbands and prison rape and yadda yadda.
There is a very good what about the men site by Michael Flood that looks at things like this. It’s a sort of safe space for men in that respect. Looks at the fuckeduppery of patriarchy from a male perspective and on building a healthy masculinity.
Alas, it emphasizes this pesky work and responsibility concept, so isn’t going to attract the incels.
My gosh, so many new commenters in this thread! Hello newpeeps, welcome to the mammoth! Please collect your complimentary gift baskets on the table to the right; they are filled with scented candles, penguin-ornamented hand towels, and misandry.
So many things to reply to here, my goodness.
I will now proceed to ramble at the tablet for a bit. Apologies for length and incoherence!
On the whole “male pressures for beauty standards” thing…
WWTH, you are a load-bearing column <3
Men do have social pressures, men do have beauty standards. That’s true, that’s unfortunate, that’s unhappy. And that’s not the issue.
The issue is that, as has been said by our talented and commendable commentariat, the use and exploitation of social power. Incels are angry because they don’t have social power or the affirmation it gives. They think having a hot girlfriend would be all they need for that social affirmation, and it’s all them foids fault for not giving it to them.
The reason so many MRAs easily slide into full fascism is because the core ideology is the same. Masculine power expression. Incels are especially snarly versions but they’re all the same gross creed. They call women the “gatekeepers of sex” because they think women are denying them the social power that visible sexual conquest gives.
They’re gross. Anyways, I guess that was a segue!
@Eveloria, thank you for speaking up! I totally understand your fear. It’s a lot like the augmented @Cyborgette is talking about I guess – how quickly that slide of belief can happen. I recently saw a friend of mine turn half-fascist, too (hemifascist?). He seems to have realized what sort of fish he’s swimming with now, though. Still has some horrible beliefs, but he’s not yet one of the Sons of Odin.
How can you stop it? Ugh, that’s such a hard question my duck. It’s so painful to watch, but the only thing I’m aware of is just communication. Talking about it, and not getting too angry at them for the horrible things they’ve started believing. Which can be a challenge.
Men are taught from a very young age that they’re smart. It’s generally a core belief that they cling to as a source of self-worth. So convincing a dude that they’re wrong about something they believe can be really, really hard, because it’s personal to them. Communicating in small steps, a little bit of general feminism. Replace the word “Patriarchy” with “Society” and all of a sudden a lot of feminism becomes very palatable to non-feminist guys. Society oppresses men and women – yes, true. It does that in different ways – yes, true. Men are expected to be powerful, and if they aren’t powerful they’re treated poorly – yes, true. Then you can gently point out that men express that they are powerful by showing superiority over women, and that the incel beliefs are basically just about reinforcing that.
I can’t say if that sort of approach would succeed – talking generally about how society oppresses people, then slipping in how the male role is all about dominating others. It’s your friend and your world! But be gentle and take care of yourself. Everyone is different and what might convince one person might push another away. Be gentle with yourself and take time away from that person if you can and need to.You’re a good person for wanting to help pull them out of that.
@Gr8dane, I’m glad you realized that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with you <3 And that you're making better guy-friends! Some humans are okay, I guess.
@Marion Wollstonecraft, I don't have time to read a thousand page book, unfortunately, but from your description it sounds a little, uh, Jungian. As in, making similar mistakes to Jung. Finding some interesting and potentially significant features and then painting in those colours exclusively.
It’s not that I disagree with the basics though! I have no doubt that male sexual entitlement plays a huge part in the rise of fascism, ’cause fascism is inherently about macho men being macho inside of a capitalist system. Any socially-effective things they might espouse is just about those macho men protecting what they see as theirs; anything that doesn’t toe the line and submit to their masculine authority is an Enemy to be crushed.
I don’t agree with some of the quoted material, though. The idea of “fluids” or “dirt” being unique markers of fascist revulsion just doesn’t seem to work in my opinion. Describing “negative-group-approaching-quickly” as a “flood” is normal language; I wouldn’t include it as coded speech.
But there could be more good stuff in there, I don’t know! Like I said, at a thousand pages I’m afraid I don’t really have the time. Thank you for pointing the book out though!
Anyways, enough ramble. Hello all you new friends, welcome!
@Violet, one of the most fun parts of International Women’s Day is the fact that there is already an International Men’s Day. There’s actually a comedian, Richard-somebody, who spends all IWD on twitter, replying to every MRA jerkoff asking “when’s International Men’s Day hurr hurr hurr” with “It’s November 19th”. Gives me a giggle every time.
They don’t actually care about getting their own day, their own space, discussing their own problems. They care about criticizing women, because a well-trodden path to social power for men is overtop the crushed egos of women. Didn’t design a skyscraper or drive a super-fast car or have any actual accomplishments, dudes? You too can enjoy the benefits of social hierarchy by publicly shaming and belittling women!
Oof, I over-bitter’d myself. Sorry about that.
Yup Richard Herring I believe. I remember him doing this on Twitter a couple of years ago, hadn’t realised it was a regular thing. Isn’t the whole of November some kind of men’s health month or something? Movemvber beards etc.
@Scildfreja
Richard Herring. One of my favourite comedians right since his Lee&Herring Fist Of Fun days 🙂
A couple of thoughts:
1) I think that the reason that this incident in particular has propagated this discussion in a way that other incidents such as the LA Fitness or Isla Vista shootings (or even the Ecole Polytechnique shooting) did not is in its method and its inexplicability. When one considers how loath people are to talk about personal culpability in fostering a misogynistic society, you’re going to see calls to action channeled into other areas. Think Barbara Frum (yes, the late mother of David “Axis of Evil” Frum) claiming Lepine’s rampage wasn’t an anti-feminist or anti-woman attack, and that it would “diminish” the tragedy to claim it was “just against one group.” So the legislative focus became gun control (and the laws were an improvement, for sure).
But van attacks are different. Without the use of firearms, emotional investment can’t be placed into gun control. Furthermore, van attacks were the trademark of an Islamic terrorist in the public consciousness after Nice and London. Yet Minassian wasn’t Muslim, so that left an explanatory void for action that the public needs filled. The cryptic Facebook post has so far been all the motive we have to chew on, so it becomes the explanatory focus.
2) There needs to be a fundamental reckoning on the Joking/Not Joking nature of the Chan culture in general. The “normies”, to use their parlance, need to not give these people any benefit of the doubt. Because I’ve seen these people try to weasel out of saying hideous things by saying “it’s just a joke.” Pepe? Just jokes. Milk? Just jokes. Okay sign? Just jokes!
They rely on the incredulity of the average person to get out of responsibility. “Why, does that fellow really believe that Elliott Rodger is a blessed saint? Surely he cannot be serious!” Well no shit he doesn’t literally think he’s a saint, but they still admire him for injuring those they mutually hate: women they perceived as “Stacies.” The over-the-top nature of the effusive praise belies the actual admiration sitting beneath the surface. That’s who they really are. Believe them when they tell you.
Corner these people on the language they use and make it clear that “normie” society still rules in the real world. Stop getting baffled by these people, mainstream media: they’re really not that complex.
That Count Dankula dipshit provides the perfect example. Of course he doesn’t actually want to “gas the Jews”, but neither does he actually care about the history of that phrase. To him, it’s all ephemeral, just some relic of a past decades before he was even born. Thus he has no problem repeating it 27 times or even putting an arm around Tommy Robinson or Richard Spencer (those that wouldn’t mind actually doing away with the Jewish populations of the world). That fact alone should be all the condemnation polite society needs to shove Dankula into a drawer and forget about him.
As for Dankula himself, he’s gotten away with mad bank as a result. He’s raked in 100K pounds against an 800 pound fine, and that asshole still has the gall to contest it. I absolutely do not understand what they thought a fine would accomplish. If community service was an option, maximum time at a Synagogue would have been the perfect sentence. Make this asshole actually learn something by being around the people he insulted with his stunt.
So to sum up, no, we as a society are not taking this brand of “I Can’t Believe It’s Not Irony” any longer. Kurt Vonnegut’s warning in Mother Night looms too large to ignore.