Check out my piece on Elle about Alek Minassian, Elliot Rodger and the threat of further incel terrorism

@Alan, you don’t think there is any marketing or social pressure that men have to deal with related to looks? It may not be as bad (except in porn where it’s worse) but it’s there. Every movie nowadays is a superhero movie, and a lot of those guys need HGH to get like that. That is not a realistic standard.

@David, thank you so much for writing this article, and thank you to Elle for publishing it. It makes me really, really happy that the topics we’ve been talking about for years are finally getting wider public exposure.

It makes me really, really sad to think that it’s needed a plague of mass murderers in order to get to this point, but I like to focus on the positives.

Our turn, my ducks. Please consider circulating David’s article to your friends and – well, anyone, really. Posting a weird blog article from feministland is one thing; posting an article from an established and popular magazine is very much another. This sort of article can cut into public consciousness far more than a thousand WHTM posts.

It makes me happy to see this! A positive turn of events. Thank you.

@ itsabeast

There are obviously issues around marketing generally, but I’ve never seen a bus shelter asking me if my wrists are beach ready, or a magazine advising me on how to get rid of the canthal tilt I put on over Christmas.

I’m glad to see a primer on incel where people who don’t follow feminist issues might see it. From what I’ve seen, most of the media hasn’t researched it well and doesn’t describe it very well.

Itsabeast,

Beauty standards for men are getting a little more rigid than they used to be. But it’s nowhere near the same. Take how Amy Schumer is presented on TV and in movies. She’s always playing the chubby girl. Even though she’s not actually fat at all. The male celebrity equivalent of her body type would be Jason Segal. Segal, unlike Schumer is never presented as a fat guy in the media though. He gets to have pretty and thin onscreen romantic interests like Alyson Hannagan or Mila Kunis without anyone wondering why they would date a fat ugly guy like him.

It’s not just that the beauty standards for women are strict though. It’s that the list of requirements is exhaustive and sometimes contradictory. Be skinny. But still have sexy T&A. Men just have to have muscle tone. And male actors only have to get super ripped while they’re playing the action hero role. Female actors have to keep their body perfect all the time. Or they won’t get work anymore. They aren’t even allowed to keep baby weight for more than a month or so after giving birth.

Don’t skip makeup because then you’ll look sick and tired and ugly. But don’t wear obvious makeup because that’s trashy. Wear “natural” makeup that takes a lot of skill and time to apply correctly and costs a lot of money. But if you have a male partner, hide that time spent on your natural makeup from him. It’s no fun to have the illusion spoiled or to make him wait after all. There’s no requirement for men to wear makeup.

Men can age and still be seen as handsome or sexy. Women aren’t allowed to be older than 30. Hollywood routinely casts 20 something love interests for middle aged male leads.

Oh, an on the maintaining skinniness thing, women have to do it without dieting. Somehow. Don’t order a salad for dinner. That bums men out. And work out enough to be thin, but enough to get bulky muscles.

Then there are the clothing expectations. Women are expected to wear stylish and flattering clothes. Not too slutty, of course. But not frumpy either, ew. Female politicians will get attacked for their clothes and have their wardrobes dissected. Male politicians can just wear the same suit over and over.

Women have to shave and pluck and wax every hair except on top of her head. It’s to the point where I’ve actually seen men call hairy armpits and legs on women unnatural. Men do not have to do anything with their body hair. Unless maybe they’re an actor or model.

The most important difference between the way beauty standards are applied to men and women is that men can fail to meet them and still be seen as people. Even attractive people. For women, wit or talent does not make up for the perception of ugliness.

So no, action stars getting buffer does not mean men face the same pressures.

It will happen again. We now have a terrorist group composed of self-identified repulsive beta male shut-ins. Of course they identify with an elderly billionaire who pays for sex.

So many of these guys on the alt right.

The alt-right: Identity politics is terrible!

Also the alt-right: I am entitled to use women as masturbatory playthings, and my unwillingness to do anything that we would make me attractive to a woman makes me a victim!

No cognitive dissonance whatsoever, the acme of unearned privilege.

@Eveloria

If you’re noticing something it may be that you’re getting better at noticing the sexism that many men struggle with. Unless you have something solid that points to them acting violent in the future?

Wow, this comments section sure is getting pro-MRA.

I’ve been following this disgusting incel movement since its beginnings and now to see it culminate in a terrorist attack in a city 45 minutes away from me, a place I frequent often with my family and friends, is beyond horrifying. I read that the victims were mostly women, including a single mother and an 80-year-old woman. I keep thinking, what if that had happened to my mother who is also my best friend and who I love more than anything, or to my sister whose newborn baby would be left motherless. To know that their lives – valuable lives, women who work hard for their communities, who have raised families, and improve the world around them, could have their lives taken away by some worthless guy who blames others for his own problems. It’s so depressing to think about.

As for this incel thing, I can’t even begin to wrap my head around how these men think. I’m a woman and I have trouble dating because I’m very shy and awkward, but the thought never crossed my mind to blame others – ever. I know that the reason I am single is because I’m too shy to put myself out there or be myself around new people. I would never, ever blame others because a relationship hasn’t simply fallen out of the sky onto my lap like some kind of thing I’m owed. It’s a very bizarre ideology.

And make no mistake, this attack was terrorism. It’s a new kind of terrorism that is based on a political ideology and religious-like cult, and its members are targeting women specifically. They are no different from ISIS. I doubt it will ever be called terrorism though, because it is women being attacked, and misogynistic violence is normalized as something that “just happens.”

Ugh. My post got eaten. Trying again.

Are we really going to do the whataboutthemenz thing? Because I’ll go. I will.

I never said men don’t ever have body image issues. I never said no one should care about them. But to pretend like beauty standards – and the consequences of failing to conform to them – are even remotely equivalent is just fucking absurd. And I can’t believe how many times have over the years here that I’ve had to defend the feminism 101 position that women are subjected to rigid, arbitary and ever changing beauty standards in a way that men simply are not.

Although, even if they were equivalent nowadays, the fact remains that women deal with these pressures in a way that doesn’t involve joining a hate group, or committing or endorsing terroristic violence. So the incel phenomena can’t be pinned on unrealistic beauty standards. It’s first and foremost an issue of male entitlement.

I also agree with Kupo – don’t go WWTH! there is so much repeating of very simple things here – it feels like circles.

Sorry! I didn’t mean I’ll go as in I’ll leave and stop commenting. I meant “I’ll go as in “you want a fight? I’ll fight.” It’s just that the argument is almost as tiresome as the mental illness = dangerous argument. It’s puzzling and frustrating that there are feminists/allies who really think male beauty standards are as punishing as the ones women are subjected to. But apparently a lot of people do think that. Because this argument has happened so many times here!

I don’t like to generalise but it seems that a lot of men are more critical of women’s appearance than women are about men’s appearance. There have been actual studies done where researchers have shown men pictures of attractive women and asked them what they thought. Quite often they would find some “flaw” to criticise. The researchers then showed women pictures of men (men that might not be considered conventionally handsome) and the women would find something positive to say, such as he’s got nice eyes, or he has a nice smile. Women were found to be considerably less critical of men than men were of women.

I have actually seen this happen and had it happen to me. I can remember being friends with a guy who I thought was a “nice guy.” To be honest, I did not find him particularly attractive but it did not matter to me because he always made me laugh. We shared a lot of the same interests. His other so called friends made fun of his appearance and I always found myself defending him. Then one day one of his friends told me “I don’t know why you stand up for him, he always calls you a dog and makes fun of you behind your back.” I confronted him and he admitted it. I was 19 at the time and I was by no means a dog. He was 33. But yet this grown man felt that he could pick a 19 year old girl apart with no consequence. He just looked blankly at me and said “yeah, you’re a bit of a scrawny dog, so, I still want to be your friend.” I remember that he said that like he was doing me a favor. He was like a brother to me and it was like a punch to the gut. Unfortunately, what I took away from that is that it doesn’t pay to go out of your way to be kind to men, because they are entitled assholes who don’t value your friendship as much as they value your appearance.
I try not to believe that of men, but I have seen this play out over and over again.

However what makes me truly sad is that a lot women often internalise this misogyny and criticism of their looks and then use it to judge other women. Instead of showing the same kindness they show to men, (men who would probably trash their appearance) they instead dissect and criticise other women’s appearance.