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Incels hail Toronto van driver who killed 10 as a new Elliot Rodger, talk of future acid attacks and mass rapes [UPDATED]

Alek Minassian: The new Elliot Rodger?

UPDATE: The CBC has confirmed with Facebook that Minassian’s post declaring himself an incel and hailing Elliot Rodger is real. 

By David Futrelle

As I write this, it’s still not completely clear if Alek Minassian, the alleged driver of the van that killed ten pedestrians in Toronto yesterday in what appeared to be a very deliberate attack, is in fact a self-identified “involuntary celibate” trying to take revenge against the “Chads” and “Stacies” and other “normies” he blames for ruining his life — or if these reports are simply some sort of 4chan-style hoax.

But on the Incels.me forum, one of the more egregious hangouts for incels online, many are already hailing the alleged mass murderer as one of their own.

In an assortment of threads that popped up after the news media began to report on a supposed Facebook post from Minassian announcing that “the Incel Rebellion has … begun,” some of the Incels.me regulars are celebrating the killings and the alleged killer as “life fuel” for them and their nihilistic, misogynistic, misanthropic “movement.” (Click on the pics below to see the comments in context on Incels.me.)

 Letting Go SE Asia or bust - JoinedMar 12, 2018 Messages1,167 Yesterday at 9:53 PM#52 Bronzehawkattack said: I really want it to be true that the guy was an incel lmao I just want to find out that a bunch of Chads and foids were killed.

 KiryuKazuma Recruit - JoinedApr 8, 2018 Messages27 Today at 12:16 AM#2 Alek Minassian. Spread that name, speak of his sacrifice for our cause, worship him for he gave his life for our future. CopeWithTheRope CopeWithTheRope Officer - JoinedJan 2, 2018 Messages826 Today at 12:19 AM#3 Top fucking kek

 gstvtrp Modcel - JoinedNov 7, 2017 Messages1,701 Today at 12:21 AM#6 The message is getting out. We're mainstream now

Naturally, it didn’t take long for one of the regular commenters to adopt a picture of Minassian as his avatar.

 Garbage Veteran - JoinedFeb 16, 2018 Messages1,063 Today at 12:27 AM#17 the incel revolution has begun

But no one was quite so enthusiastic about the killings as the commenter calling himself BlkPillPres, who wondered if the killer had taken the advice he had given in a previous thread to use something other than guns in his “ER” — that is, Elliot Rodger-style — attack.

 BlkPillPres BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Yesterday at 10:25 PM#61 If he is incel I wonder if he saw my thread TOP KEK - https://incels.me/threads/more-mass...od-thing-hopefully-er-rapes-will-begin.31789/ This shit right here is lifefuel for me and exactly what I was talking about, too many ER guys are using guns so its expected and they get taken down very quickly these days, not only that but having these killings only take place with guns makes normies feel safe. Since this guy used a vehicle now the whole "ban guns" spiel looks like retarded coping, you can't ban hatred, hatred is all it takes to go do a mass killing event. This is literally what I asked for, finally somebody breaking the mold, next up how about a guy who breaks into a condom vending machine at night, pokes holes in all the condoms and closes the machine. I would love to see the end result of that shit, pure lifefuel. So many normie males will get trapped in unwated lives ;) ER doesn't always have to be violent, it just needs to be strategic and punish normies in some way, they need to be in constant fear for EVERY ASPECT OF THEIR LIFE, killing normies from my perspective is kinda pointless but this is still good, I prefer acid attacks to mass killings though, wonder who is going to do a "mass acid attack". He will have zero kills to his high score but in my book he'd have beaten all the high scores by virtue of lives ruined and BLACK PILLS FORCED DOWN PEOPLES THROATS. All the normies who used to think "looks don't matter" will not get to test the theory lol.

Many in the media and in politics are unwilling to label attacks driven by misogynistic ideology as terrorism — often declaring them to be simply the result of “mental illness,” as many did in the case of Elliot Rodger’s murders (ignoring his hundred page manifesto), and as the authorities are already doing in the Toronto attacks.

But misogyny is not mental illness; it’s hate. And what BlkPillPres is talking about here is essentially the dictionary definition of terrorism — “[t]he unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” The tactics he suggests are an explicit attempt to subject “normies” to “constant fear” — that is, terror — in all areas of their lives, in order to advance BlkPillPres’ goal of “black pilling” the world and intimidating those who criticize incels into silence.

Following his link back to the older thread, one quickly discovers that it is even more disturbing. In it, BlkPillPres sets out what he sees as the virtues of various terroristic strategies, from acid attacks to mass rape to vehicle attacks like the one we saw yesterday.  (If you are feeling at all fragile you may wish to stop reading this post right here.)

 BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Mar 27, 2018#1 http://www.wkyt.com/content/news/He...threatening-to-kill-classmates-477916203.html I'm glad this shit is happening because I think mass shootings are too inefficient and pointless anyways, I want to see some mass food poisoning deaths, maybe a pipe bomb or two, or hopefully somebody finally uses a fucking truck to just ram down roasties during a school parade or something, mix it up a little. As more and more get stopped like this, sooner or later everybody will start getting the message, that mass shootings are obsolete, and they'll need to seek out less predictable methods of "going ER". What I can't wait for, the one I know is really going to fuck with normies, really punish society, is when the first incel mass rape/serial rape takes place, when a guy leaves a manifesto after killing himself detailing all the rapes he's done, that will be the best ER ever, because his victims don't just get to die, and their families don't just get to "move on". These women will be traumatized, some might kill themselves before or after their rape begins to get coverage, their families will have to endure the shame, etc that comes with this, the women will have to endure reliving the rape everyday, endure months to years of therapy sessions. Not to mention we will be spamming his image and memeing him into an immortal internet presence as we have for Elliot Rodger, they won't ever be able to forget, and society won't be able to either, and it is at that moment that normies will truly fear us, you see if we kill them then everyone gets to move on, and the ones left alive get to have to cope of "they're in a better place", but if we rape instead of murder for ER, they don't get to move on, they don't get these BS copes to ease their pain. Women fear rape more than death, because it is a many forcefully taking the only thing from her that makes her have worth, her sexuality, now imagine an incel raped you, and having the world know about it, chad won't even be able to look at his cheerleader GF the same after she's been defiled by an incel. ITS OVER for her dream life lol.

Others in the thread suggests that this all sounds great to them, with one aiming some of his ire at the IncelTears subreddit, which is devoted to criticizing Incels on Reddit and elsewhere.

 Apr 1, 2018#14 Deep down cucktears knows that if mass ERing happens, people will be afraid of mocking subhuman males. Humans have no empathy for men. Only fear sends a message. Facecel, heightcel, dickcel, ethnicel. ​ "Women are nothing but machines for producing children." - Napoleon Bonaparte "We won't kill you. We will just shoot your vagina. If there is no vagina, you would be useless." - Rodrigo Duterte King_of_morons King_of_morons Mineta wouldn’t be hated if he were a 6’4 chad. - JoinedNov 8, 2017 Messages276 Apr 1, 2018#15 The incel uprising is nigh.

Other commenters offer their own even more horrifying ideas.

yukreic Recruit - JoinedFeb 17, 2018 Messages6 Apr 8, 2018#16 look up flamethrowers on youtube. easy to make. don't know why everyone just uses guns. not effective against crowds. SaintMarcLepine SaintMarcLepine Thot Exterminator - JoinedNov 8, 2017 Messages1,490 Apr 8, 2018#17 Someone needs to get some acid, hook it up to a sprinkler and just spray concerts, festivals etc.

Like Ub2w, BlkPillPres is especially taken with the acid-in-the-face tactic.

 BlkPillPres Veteran - JoinedFeb 28, 2018 Messages1,089 Apr 9, 2018#39 Ub2w said: Rape? What some people need is an acid bath, enough to melt their face but not kill them, basically forcing them to live as truecels There should be a middle ground, rape them then acid face attack, because I don't get any enjoyment really by just fucking their looks up. If anything now its doubly more psychologically damaging, the last person to enjoy their beauty was by force, in a way you claimed a priceless treasure for yourself, you are the last person to enjoy and ravage their beauty before it is destroyed. Think I just found my MO if I become a rapist. Its like the reverse of the JBF (Just Be First) rule, JBL (Just Be Last) kek

“Kek.”

Sadly, as someone who has been writing about incels for several years now, none of this is surprising. Disturbing, yes, but not surprising. Incel is a hate movement, and it is long past time for it to be treated as such.

NOTE: The reaction amongst Reddit incels has been more measured; I may delve into that in a future post.

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left_wing_fox
left_wing_fox
3 years ago

Seconding Kilgore’s post about online radicalization. I’ve been thinking about this a fair bit, since I can see that path as being a bullet I dodged.

I’d first heard the term Incel back around 1994-1997, and I remember thinking “Hah, yeah, sounds like me” before realizing it wasn’t a good place to consider myself. As a victim of violent bullying in Jr. High, I had very low self-esteem, not helped by wrestling with my bisexuality. Back then, the popular cultural message to nerds was “You will die alone”.

That said, I was also pretty privileged. White cis middle class male, after all. So I had my head up my ass, and pop culture made it really easy to keep it there. That’s the default setting for every fantasy hero who gets the girl through heroism and adventure, rather than any sort of active romantic effort. The competing message of hollywood films was “You deserve a beautiful girl” and “You will never have one”. It also didn’t help that my exposure to feminist thought was largely of the gender essentialist 2nd wave stuff, which tended to feed into the streotypes of “What women want” as a monolithic group. It didn’t help that all of my closest friends were guys as well.

There were three things that ultimately helped me get off my bullshit. The first was the furry fandom. That was one of the few ways I was able to first socialize with women of a similarly geeky persuasion, and realize the pop culture narratives I’d been fed were false.

The second was reading feminist blogs. After 9/11, I was introduced to liberal blogs, one of which was Pandagon. Matt Yglasias and Ezra Klein brought in Amanda Marcotte who linked more heavily into the feminist blogging sphere. That’s where I heard the formulation of the “Nice Guy”, and began to realize “Oh shit, that was me.”

The final piece of the puzzle was ultimately sites like Captain Awkward, which really drove home the nature of abusive relationships, and how people react to them. It also helped me come to terms with the real things holding me back: Social anxiety and long-simmering dysthemia.

That was ultimately what kept me from dating: fear of actually asking anyone out. Fear of rejection. Fear of mockery magnified by bullying. It was also unconsiously regurgitating the sense of sexism and entitlement I’d grown up with.

Unfortunately, having said all that, I don’t have any real insight into paths out of radicalization for others, or a way to reach these guys. All the things that helped keep my head in my ass are pretty much gone: culture is much more inclusive, geek culture is dominant, there are far more inclusive and wide-ranging fandoms, and easier places to interact online. And yet, we get gamergate, where dudes harass women in favor of virtual titties, then whine that no women wants them. It’s a self-reinforcing downward spiral egged on by fucking monsters.

Sigh… So hey. For what it’s worth to all the women online, there’s a few terrible people you saved from themselves. Thank you.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

Took you some work though, didn’t it. (Don’t dismiss that effort – self change is HARD! 🙂 )

If someone isn’t wanting to put in the work – they think they don’t need to, for example – it’s still just as easy to hook up into a toxic loop.

Probably easier – wide ranging fandoms have a downside. When there’s only one place to gather, you’re forced to be less choosy. Big fandom means you can self segregate, and people take advantage of that.

mcbender
3 years ago

This is all so disgusting. They keep getting worse. Honestly I think some of that’s probably to do with toxic masculinity – when your entire view of social interaction is competitive jockeying for status, it’s easy to get vicious cycles of one-upmanship when you tie that status to something that isn’t strongly bounded. It’s like they’re competing in a misogyny contest.

There’s something that jumps out at me from the rape-and-acid guy, the “nobody else gets to enjoy her beauty” thing. Eeeeesh. There’s so much to unpack there – beauty as a thing for male consumption, sex specifically as status for men, and all kinds of purity/virginity garbage. I want to focus a bit on that purity aspect, because I think there might be an insight here: I’ve been thinking this about incels for a while, that a lot of their myths (see, for instance, the “loose vagina” thing, or all the supposed ways to detect non-virgins from that recent post) persist because they want to think of sex as permanently damaging women. In a twisted sense, I think they might be seeking “mattering”, they want to feel like their actions make a difference. In the absolute worst way possible.

I almost want to call it “sexual sadism”, except that that runs the risk of being confused with consensual BDSM and that’s not at all what I’m talking about. I’m not sure what else to call it, though, it’s literally an adversarial mentality that wants to harm people through sex. There’s this whole idea that sex is degrading to women veined throughout our culture, and so I don’t necessarily think it’s a big step for a man to go from “I want to get sex” to “I want to degrade women”, and then decide to cut out the intermediary.

I started thinking about this back in January, after reading this piece by Lili Loofbourow https://theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure
and thinking that for a certain kind of man this is probably a feature rather than a bug. I’ve meant to write about it and just couldn’t finish the piece, I’ve tried a few times now.

Rape culture constructs male sexuality as inherently predatory. And if you think about that for just a second… what happens to prey?

(In some sense the prey’s suffering might matter, too – cats tend to ignore dead mice, for instance. And it’s not always about food, cats often kill without eating. I realise I’m probably stepping on a minefield by insulting cats in this space, and I don’t mean to – I quite like cats, honestly! But they were the first example that came to mind.)

Seeing men come out of the woodwork in every discussion of sexual misconduct and go out of their way to empathise with the predators rather than the victims is also rather telling, I think. Even in cases as obviously vile as Harvey Weinstein or Larry Nassar, I’ve spoken to men about the situations and had them ignore the victims to whatabout the abusers. I’m not saying all men – not in the least – but it’s happened often enough that I think it’s significant.

I don’t think I’ve got anything concrete here, but I think it bears thinking about.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

If someone isn’t wanting to put in the work

That might not be the sole source of problems. What about those who don’t know how? I don’t think this is something that has a user manual that everyone gets a copy of … and not everyone has access to therapy, counseling, or similar such services either, for financial or other reasons.

(A)utonomist Escapist
(A)utonomist Escapist
3 years ago

Concerning the similarities to DAESH and other terroristic groups, most actual study of the recruits points to the same kind of disillusionment with society as a prime motivator in joining the cause, so to speak, and then it is eventually dressed up in some form of supposed goal in the case of Daesh, though less so with the Incels and other misanthropically nihillistic terrorists. That is not to say that it is the sole motivational factor nescessarily, just that this usually tends to be a common denominator. I’d provide links, but is very early and I don’t have them to hand, sorry.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@Surplus

That might not be the sole source of problems. What about those who don’t know how?

Fair point.
I were thinking about one particular group of people, but your group is equally a problem. There’s also the ones who don’t see a problem in the first place. Those are the really troubling ones to my mind.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I wonder if another component of incel is how it’s not socially acceptable for men to compliment and reassure each other. At least not in most circles. It’s very, very common for women and girls to be insecure about our appearance. We tend to talk to our friends about these insecurities. And although like incels, we will commiserate and share our own appearance based insecurities, we will also tell our friends about their attractive qualities. For example, if a friend was anxious about having a big butt, I might say “at least you can hide that with an A-line skirt. Especially since you have great legs and skinny arms. But I have fat arms and that is so much harder to hide. At least you don’t have fat arms and giant boobs!” This kind of talk empathizes with the bodily insecurity but also reassures the other person that they have good points to compensate for the bad.

Of course, this all assumes there are universally good and bad traits. This is problematic and I try to avoid these types of discussions nowadays not the least because as someone who used to have an eating disorder, it’s a triggering topic. But for all the flaws in this sort of typical conversation between female friends, it’s vastly better than the way incels do it. Which is just to basically say “yeah, you’re ugly. So am I.”

I think a lot of the reason this type of toxic male bonding occurs is because men typically are not allowed to compliment other men on their appearance in a non-sexual way and because men are not typically allowed to ask for reassurance from other men. Women can lean on each other in ways men cannot. Just another way toxic masculinity hurts both women and men.

I hope this isn’t too garbled. I’ve had some wine and it’s late. So. Yeah.

comment image

Shadowplay
3 years ago

Completely off topic, but since I don’t like laughing alone …

https://twitter.com/darth/status/988884855642443777

mcbender
3 years ago

@wwth I think you might be onto something there too, though I’ve had quite a bit of wine myself so who knows.

More wine.

GenJones
GenJones
3 years ago

Why the hell are these people not being tracked down and rounded up for confinement already?

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
3 years ago

@WWTH:

I wonder if another component of incel is how it’s not socially acceptable for men to compliment and reassure each other. At least not in most circles.

Yeah. The sad thing is that strong emotional connections between men used to be the basis of society. Or, well, at least much more acceptable. Of course, that tended to express itself in misogynistic ways, but still: https://thewalrus.ca/the-epidemic-of-isolation-among-young-men/

(A)utonomist Escapist
(A)utonomist Escapist
3 years ago

@GenJones: Rounding up people is usually the preferred methods of our enemies, last time I checked. Although it’s not as easily imagined or satisfiable, I am always in favour of reeducation and rehabillitation, and that actually goes for Incels and Nazis both. Although, as stated, it’s what I would prefer. When it isn’t possible, I am all for exploring every option available, but it really does depend on the circumstances and what can be achieved.

EJ (The Other One)
3 years ago

@WWTH:
I think you’ve got something there.

In my experience, part of the problem is that boys are taught to value themselves in a very competitive light. You can’t be strong; you can only be stronger than someone else. This means that if you hang out in a group where everyone’s strong, then you’re nothing special and so have less value.

Because it’s a relative rather than an absolute, it means that the only way to build someone up is to put someone else down at the same time. This harms the sort of affirming, we’re-both-valid sort of conversations that you mention, because both men are taught to see the other man as a threat and to read every complement as zero-sum.

One of the things that I love about progressive spaces is that I can talk to other people who were socialised male, and not have this sort of bullshit.

Edit to add: I wonder if this is why there’s such a strong correlation between unexamined masculinity and belief in laissez-faire capitalism?

opposablethumbs
opposablethumbs
3 years ago

such a strong correlation between unexamined masculinity and belief in laissez-faire capitalism

Two poisonous tastes that taste poisonous together … :-s

The Grauniad has got this at the top of the page today:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/24/toronto-van-attack-facebook-post-may-link-suspect-with-incel-group

Self-identified incels have used the internet to find anonymous support and develop an ideology whose central belief is that the modern world is unfairly stacked against awkward or unattractive heterosexual men.

Incel websites argue that society is set up so that some men have numerous sexual partners, others have none and women get to take their pick in what is often described as a “sexual marketplace”.

Such theories are often buttressed with half-understood theories about evolution, psychology and genetics. And at their heart is a belief that denying men sex is unjust.

As in other reactionary subcultures that reject consensus liberal beliefs, those who take on the incel creed are said to have taken “the red pill” – referring to the scene in the science fiction movie The Matrix where the protagonist chooses to leave his illusions behind.

Frequently such ideas lead to a generalized bitterness towards women. Indeed, the big incel hubs are often viciously misogynistic and regularly feature calls for rape or other violence.

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@WWTH:

I think a lot of the reason this type of toxic male bonding occurs is because men typically are not allowed to compliment other men on their appearance in a non-sexual way and because men are not typically allowed to ask for reassurance from other men. Women can lean on each other in ways men cannot. Just another way toxic masculinity hurts both women and men.

I hope this isn’t too garbled. I’ve had some wine and it’s late. So. Yeah.

Well, I’m as sober as a priest on Sunday and it makes sense to me. Though I think there’s a second aspect that amplifies the effect even more.

Specifically, people need reassurance, and the nature of our society pretty much makes it impossible for some of men’s emotional needs to met other than by women. This would then be another reason for men to feel desperate to have, and to maintain, a relationship with a woman, and to act out in sometimes destructive ways if for whatever reason that isn’t happening for them.

Indeed a prediction can be made from this, which is that there’ll be a correlation between incel/MRA/MGTOW/etc. type extremism, or susceptibility to radicalization in general even, and lacking or problematic maternal involvement in their lives. Because in the absence of a lover, most men have no other likely female confidantes but their mothers. If they’re also unavailable for any reason (including physically present, but emotionally unavailable) they’ll have nowhere they feel they can turn for reassurance.

@EJ:

Edit to add: I wonder if this is why there’s such a strong correlation between unexamined masculinity and belief in laissez-faire capitalism?

Undoubtedly. And hostility to the welfare state, and and and. When you’re graded on a curve and someone’s getting government assistance, you’re going to yell “that’s cheating!” in indignant fury.

Getting rid of this “graded on a curve” BS and grounding people’s worth in sufficiency, rather than superiority, is needed … and for both/all sexes. For men, sufficiency in the various things you mentioned. For women, sufficiency in attractiveness, so it’s not “I’ll never look like the women on the magazine covers!” but “I can’t look too bad, men occasionally ask me out” or whatever.

@GenJones:

Why the hell are these people not being tracked down and rounded up for confinement already?

Because of this pesky little important thing called the First Amendment, most likely.

@Autonomous:

reeducation

That’s running into Stalin, wishing to avoid Hitler. I really don’t know what to do, beyond surveill their forums and deal with the ones that do break the law (including by overstepping Amendment I with actionable death threats and suchlike) and doing a better job of raising the next generation of boys by passing as little of toxic masculinity to them as we can manage. (Which still requires getting all, or most, of the parents to agree to something…at least the worst affected, by their own admission, seem to be having some problems breeding, so the worst of the parents will be somewhat less bad than the worst period.)

(A)utonomist Escapist
(A)utonomist Escapist
3 years ago

@Surplus: I am well aware of the connotations there 😉

But if we leave the propagandizing and indoctrination to the reactionaries, I can’t see any substantial and meaningful gains in terms of creating the foundations for continued social progress. It’s why I wish all the Nazi/MRA/whatever-flavoured-idiots were correct in their insistence that Cultural Marxism was actively being imposed on the youth 😀

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
3 years ago

Dan Someone:

What’s the endgame for these people? What is the desired result of the “incel uprising”?

That’s a good question. I think they mostly operate on the common intuitive idea that punishing wrongdoers is a goal in itself, or a means to uphold the abstract principle of justice, rather than a means to achieve something practical, like prevent future wrongdoings.

They dress it in terms of a social revolution, because it sounds cool and grand, and they don’t think it beyond “violence is a natural recourse of the oppressed”. It’s so simple because their perceived oppression is generally just a way to rationalize violent fantasies, dreams of grandeur and feeling of righteousness.

Their ideology already maintains that the enemy is mainstream culture, so they can just attack random crowds without discrimination. That said, most of them would probably prefer to focus on hurting “Stacies”, and in some cases especially particular people who’ve rejected them.

Jo
Jo
3 years ago

I just don’t get incels.

To me, incels are all about entitlement, denial and projection. There is obviously variation within the incel world, but I think there’s one very common type, who I’ll call Ian Sell.

Growing up, Ian internalised that he is entitled to all sorts of things and as a straight cis man he’s been ‘playing life on the easy setting’. He does OK at his studies and/or at work and he believes that when he succeeds it’s due to being smart and when he fails it’s because he’s bored and unmotivated. He is fairly average in appearance, certainly not ugly but also not cute and he doesn’t try particularly hard with grooming or looking after himself because making an effort is for losers. He has a few friends, even some girls, as he grows up because he’s not yet a terrible person and because young people aren’t always great at spotting or acting on red flags.

Based on popular culture and porn, Ian believes that having sex and a compliant, conventionally attractive woman are utterly central to being a real man. He also believes he is entitled to sex and women because he is a man and because (he believes) he is smarter than most people, especially women, who he regards as unintelligent, emotional and irrational. And like everything else in his life, he shouldn’t have to work or change (especially non-physical aspects of himself) to attract a partner – that would imply there is something wrong with his intellect or character and he can’t accept that.

As his peer group starts to pair off, he tries to ‘approach’ women, perhaps using some PUA techniques that he picked up online. He gives off loads of red flags and mostly approaches women who are conventionally very attractive. After a few rejections, he grumpily approaches a less attractive woman, but his attitude is even worse and she rejects him too. He becomes sullen and bitter, which of course makes him even more likely to be rejected.

At this point, Ian could try self-reflection or ask women he knows where he’s going wrong. But he would have to accept many unacceptable things to do this successfully. He can’t accept that he is creepy, that women are human, that he needs to listen to other people to be liked, that women are as smart as men, that women are often better at social interactions than men, that he isn’t actually a nice person, that his dissatisfaction with life isn’t mostly because of a lack of sex etc. etc.

So he needs an explanation and he blames his looks. He sees couples and attractive women, he reads about women who enjoy sex and it burns him up inside. If only he was more attractive he would get sex, he would have a hot girlfriend. He becomes ever more bitter and angry, which of course makes it ever less likely that women – or any normal people – will want to talk to him.

He finds the online incel community at some stage in this process and they provide an outlet for his rage and frustration. They confirm that it’s all about looks and he must be repulsive – looks and lack of wealth are the main reason men are rejected by women, who are shallow. Attractive women are sluts; rich, attractive men are taking all the woman and both groups are doing it for the joy of being high status and rubbing the noses of men like him in the dirt. This is where the projection comes in – he believes everyone else is as full of hate as him.

There then follows a cycle of him becoming ever more full of hate and violence (encouraged by the online community) and his life becoming worse as a result, which makes him angrier and so on. It’s now incredibly hard for him to break out of this cycle, because of what he’d have to admit about himself. If a non-incel suggests that his problem is his attitude, he is adamant that no one can tell what he’s thinking. He is probably drawn into all sorts of adjacent groups such as the alt-right, making him more angry, paranoid and less able to connect with ordinary people.

His family and friends start becoming more distant, which he also blames on his ugliness. This is why he thinks that if other people were disfigured, they’d lose their family and friends. Projection again.

Sorry, this has become far longer than I planned and I’m not the most elegant writer. Also, I hope I don’t sound like I’m making excuses for Ian. He’s a hateful bag of runny shit, but I think understanding the journey he took to get there might be part of the solution.

Rabid Rabbit
Rabid Rabbit
3 years ago

I’m amazed. The MSM actually seems to be paying attention to the incel angle. First, the Guardian, and now even the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/what-is-an-incel-toronto-van-attack-explainer-alek-minassian-1.4633893

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Grauniad summary on incel. Explicitly references the alt-right connection.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/25/what-is-incel-movement-toronto-van-attack-suspect

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
3 years ago

That’s running into Stalin, wishing to avoid Hitler

it’s a joke to think Stalin even “re-educated” one person. he put his enemies in mental hospitals, sent to execution or to die in a penal colony. no one was “re-educated”. people pretended maybe – because they are afraid. but Stalin even sent Soviet soldiers who captured by the Nazis to penal colony after they returned from war. he personally signed 44,000 execution papers, and famously didn’t read them.

for me, life is short. we must concentrate on viticms of nazis and incels. punishment is all we can do – there is no more time to waste on nazis and incels. and use our time instead to improve society, fight patriarchy and misogyny and racism so that no more nazis will grow, so young men don’t need to be incel – so they know to share their feelings. but for people who are already nazis and incels, and who already harmed people, I want to care for victims first before reeducaion or rehabilitation.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

Whenever there’s talk of re-educating or rehabilitating the MRAlt-right, I’m always reminded of the film Day of the Dead. That’s the one where the scientist spends all his efforts on trying to ‘cure’ the zombies.

In the end he manages to get one zombie to say “Hello Aunt Alicia”.

The whole point of course being that he’s wasting his time; and it would have been much better for all if he’d just concentrated on how to get rid of the mass of zombies outside.

Can’t help but think the same principle applies in the real world.

Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
Lumipuna (nee Arctic Ape)
3 years ago

Incels have been arguing on whether or not they wanted to become a known terrorist movement. Now, the decision has apparently been made for them.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
3 years ago

The whole point of course being that he’s wasting his time; and it would have been much better for all if he’d just concentrated on how to get rid of the mass of zombies outside.

Can’t help but think the same principle applies in the real world

👆👆👆

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@GenJones

Why the hell are these people not being tracked down and rounded up for confinement already?

Great idea! Do we let ICE do it, or bring Arapaio out of retirement?

(That were sarcasm.)

Jo
Jo
3 years ago

I think the only silver lining to this awful event is that it’s hugely raised the awareness of the wider public of the dangers of the incel movement and there is a great opportunity for people like us to educate journalists and people at large as to who they are and why they are so dangerous.

When I first started reading Manboobz, it was mostly about daft claims from bitter Elam types on Reddit about false rape accusations and the prevalence of domestic abuse. Awful people and there was the occasional violent act, but mostly just a bizarre fringe. But this movement has grown, morphed and formed links with all sorts of horrible fellow travellers. David is now one of the foremost experts in one of the most influential (and evil) political forces in the west and beyond.

This massacre might be a tipping point where anyone who follows current events needs a basic understanding of incels and the wider manosphere. And I don’t want to sound like I’m giving a rousing speech at the start of the last act of an action movie, but we’re the people to do that education,

There will be misunderstandings and lies and counter-narratives in the weeks ahead, which we can refute or at least point out to influential people like David who can refute them more widely.

ischemgeek
ischemgeek
3 years ago

It’s totally terrorism. Terrorism by design, with a movement that started decades before it started calling itself by its current name.

Left-wing and centrist people really tend to underestimate how well-coordinated and tech savvy the right-wing extremists are. They figured out how to do this online youth radicalization stuff in the 90s, and the rest of us are only playing catch up. There’s no single head of the movement, true, but that’s by design – so that if one figure is discredited it doesn’t damage the movement as a whole. They rebrand every few years because they know stuff gets stale on the internet – but just because they’re calling themselves Alt-Right or Incels now doesn’t mean crap. It’s still the same racist and misogynist far right, with a new name.

As for what the end game is, my guess is that it’s the same as what the end-game was for my parents’ movement when I was a kid: Which is to say, total takeover of all levels of government and society as a whole, and the ability to make their fantasy world come true. What exactly that would look like was very fuzzy back then and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s fuzzy now – the far right wants the ability to dictate what society will look like, but they don’t necessarily have it figured out what they want it to look like. Beyond things like undoing women’s suffrage and abortion rights.

Murf.
Murf.
3 years ago

Wow, these guys sound so juvenile. Always easier to blame other people for their crappy lives than to do something about it .

Maybe they should just fuck each other lol

Cindy
Cindy
3 years ago

The whole point of course being that he’s wasting his time; and it would have been much better for all if he’d just concentrated on how to get rid of the mass of zombies outside.

This is why I personally don’t like groups such as Life after hate. They spend all that money and energy on helping Nazis get better, on helping them to move on… imagine if they’d spent it on helping their victims instead, or on helping Antifa in their struggle against the Nazi menace.

This might be my white-hot anger talking, but I don’t think Incels, Nazis, TERFs etc. deserve a life after hate.

Pie
Pie
3 years ago

@Dan Someone

What’s the endgame for these people? What is the desired result of the “incel uprising”? Do they think it’s going to get them laid? Is it just “If I can’t have [sex], then nobody can”?

Well, obviously all the surviving Stacies will sleep with them and all the Chads will treat them with respect and fear and deference, because if they don’t the incel terrorists will get them. If Stacy and Chad aren’t sufficiently cowed, then the government will just give the incels sex to fix the problem and stop the terrorism!

DawnPurityseeker
DawnPurityseeker
3 years ago

@Alan

And most prisoners will reoffend. But I don’t think we should shoot them into space. 😉

@Jo

Yup yup all true. But I still don’t get why anyone in our society would think that relationships would solve their depression, low self-esteem, or anything else. Like this idea that men need partners to talk to about their problems with. True on a surface level, but the reality is that no-one’s got time to be their full-time therapist, partner or not.

I think everyone has to work through some unrealistic expectations about relationships (especially when young), but incels expectations of “having a girlfriend” sound so off the wall that I wonder how they hold them in their heads without floating into space. Have they never seen a real relationship up close? ;p

Cohen the Librarian
Cohen the Librarian
3 years ago

“Many in the media and in politics are unwilling to label attacks driven by misogynistic ideology as terrorism — often declaring them to be simply the result of “mental illness,” as many did in the case of Elliot Rodger’s murders (ignoring his hundred page manifesto), and as the authorities are already doing in the Toronto attacks.

But misogyny is not mental illness; it’s hate.”

A few points to consider:

1) It is easier for troubled people to be radicalized- if you’re reasonably content you’re not going to be drawn into a toxic ideology or into a belief that killing or maiming other people is a good idea

2) Because of this, there is very high likelihood that an ideologically driven killer will be mentally disturbed

3) Whether or not a mass killer is actually mentally troubled has nothing to do with whether they are labelled a terrorist or merely mentally disturbed. I remember when, a few years ago, a Quebec man ran people down in the name of “Islamic State”. A short look into his life story indicates that he was mentally troubled. However, the fact that he was radicalized into Islamic State ideology was enough to earn him the label of “terrorist”.

4) What actually gets something classified as terrorism has a lot to do with the ideology behind it. Certain ideologies are seen as inherently “terrorist”, others not.

5) Conveniently for Islamophobes, the thing that is most likely to label an act as political terrorism is if it has anything to do with Islam or Muslims. That means they can say “Of course, it’s Muslims who are doing all the terrorism”. Well, yeah, but you’re making “Muslim” a criteria for calling something “terrorist”, so of course!

Jo
Jo
3 years ago

@DawnPurityseeker

Short answer, no, they probably have not! Not in real life because they’re screen addicts – and the media they consume doesn’t portray realistic relationships.

And I don’t think they believe the companionship of a romantic partner will make them feel happier. They think that the fact they aren’t having sex makes them less of a man.

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
3 years ago

@Jo I liked that breakdown of the incel mindset – thanks

@Cindy I do understand why you feel that way. I feel that way sometimes myself. But I do believe it is possible for people to change. For example if you look at left_wing_fox’s post, above.

The problem is that hate breeds hate. If we say “they don’t deserve a life after hate” then we are effectively saying they don’t deserve human rights. And if we are saying that, then we are playing their game, because that’s what they believe we think anyway. That attitude reinforces their prejudices: “See? They think we’re subhuman!”

It’s the same way Islamic terrorist factions use attacks by white supremacists as propaganda to radicalise further. These people are trading on a mindset of prejudice and exclusion, so if you offer them hate….you’re effectively recruiting for them. Anger and hate are natural emotions but they will not solve this because this problem already comes from anger and hate and adding more will just fuel it.

I don’t know how you get out of this one, tbh. Because at the same time as saying all that, I also know I don’t fancy myself skipping through fields holding hands with members of the incel and far-right community. Especially not after reading the above post.

But I do know that organisations like Life After Hate can help a lot of people out of a mindset which could have eventually led them to do something like the post above and I believe communication, hard as it is, is really the only way we are going to change anything.

Behaving in a “good” way is, by its very nature, harder than bad behaviour. When you’re trying to do the right thing, you have to obey a set of rules; see different points of view; make allowances; all of that stuff. And this is very fucking hard, especially when you read something like the above. Evil doesn’t have to do any of that and can just do what it wants (you hates it; you kills it; done. See above). Basically, good has constraints and evil has none.

Cindy
Cindy
3 years ago

@Violet I think I’ll have to read your post later, when I’m less fucking angry. Maybe what I said was too harsh.

Cohen the Librarian
Cohen the Librarian
3 years ago

Hopefully this atrocity will bring greater attention to the Incel movement. But while the Incel subculture is truly poisonous, it is also really important to draw connections with broader cultural issues around dating, sex, and male entitlement. Namely:

1) Where are these people getting the idea that the amount of sex you can say you’ve had and with whom is a measure of status and worth, and that if you’re socially awkward and have trouble getting dates this makes you an object of scorn or pity?

2) Where are they getting the idea that women owe them sex?

We recoil at the hatred on display and at the evil it commits or supports, and rightly so. But we cannot be too quick to distance ourselves from it. These people are part of our society. Their hatred is the consequence of them taking common beliefs in our culture to their logical conclusions. We need to take on these toxic beliefs. Only then will we have a chance of defeating the toxic ideologies that derive their power from those beliefs.

dslucia
dslucia
3 years ago

@Cohen the Librarian:

The point, which for some reason we constantly need to discuss on this website, is that mental illnesses don’t cause misogyny and aren’t the sole reason people act on their misogynistic ideas. Constantly ascribing terrorist attacks like this one solely to mental illness, however, has the effect of reinforcing in the public opinion that people with mental illnesses are all dangerous. You said it yourself:

Whether or not a mass killer is actually mentally troubled has nothing to do with whether they are labelled a terrorist or merely mentally disturbed.

What exactly is the benefit of defending the status quo here? If we as a society never accept that people are capable of committing acts like this regardless of their mental state, how are we supposed to change the fact that these events based in deeply misogynistic ideals keep happening? This man and many others like him aren’t being radicalized into bigoted hate by nebulous mental illnesses they may or may not have; they’re being radicalized by the hatred they take in from other men.

EJ (The Other One)
3 years ago

What dslucia said.

I suspect that the “he was just mentally ill” angle is a form of ideological self-defence, practised by people who buy into the toxic ideas that informed the tragedy, to prevent them from having to examine those ideas too closely.

The concept of ideological self-defence is something that I don’t understand well enough to be able to speculate on further. People who know more about ideology might be able to help here.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Yo I read Spinoza too, still don’t believe they didn’t choose to become monsters. They absolutely did. Mental illness is one thing (fuck knows I have more than my fair share), hate is another, period.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

EJ

You pretty much nailed it.

Your code is so self evidently true as far as you are concerned, that anyone who doesn’t agree with it or acts against it obviously has something mentally wrong with them.

It’s easier and more comforting to assume mental illness on their behalf than to assume your own unspoken assumptions and habits of thought are wrong.

Ohlmann
Ohlmann
3 years ago

For the reeducation angle : remember, it’s impossible to make someone change if he don’t want to. Or at least, you need chinese-level of atrocities.

For Cohen and his ill-adviced notion of “mentally troubled” : to talk in a constructive way, remember that mental illness don’t lead to more radicalized people, or anything close to that really, which make the entirety of your 1) and 2) point total and utter bullshit.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

@ dawnpurityseeker

And most prisoners will reoffend.

Heh, I got a bit disoriented there because we’d been having a discussion last night about penal policy generally, and I was thinking “Hang on, was that on mammoth?”.

I suppose it is peripherally connected to the discussion here. There have been some rehabilitative successes with ‘restorative justice’ schemes; but that usually involves young kids embarrassingly meeting the victims of their general foolish malarkey.

I’m not sure that would work with those people who’ve got a deep seated ideology. There’s also the fact that it’s unfair to expect victims to have to work with the people who want them dead.

The MRAlt-right are properly radicalised. And again, whilst there have been some successes with de-radicalisation programmes, they’re few and far between and one has to ask, is it a good use of resources that might be better deployed elsewhere?

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

I have lots of thinky thoughts on this one (And lots of blistering rage) but just wanted to hop in here quick while I have a moment.

@Cohen the Librarian, my duck, welcome! You done yourself up a little thinking error. It’s even syllogystic! Here is what you said in your points 1 and 2:

1) Troubled people are more susceptible to radicalization
c) Therefore people with mental illness will be more common in extremist organizations

This is an unstated premise fallacy. You’re missing one, I guess you figured it wasn’t needed?

2) People with mental illness are more prone to be troubled

’cause that’s contentious! In what we’re talking about, “troubled” means “prone to violent behaviour” – we’re talking about extremist organizations!

In less specific terms, you’re suggesting that people with mental illness are easier to convince that violence is an acceptable action, it seems?I don’t think that’s true at all.

I think our societal definition of “mentally ill” is a convenient deflection, and nothing more. We want to think that everyone in our society is good, so anyone who is deliberately and obviously violent is mentally ill, cause we just can’t accept that our society might churn out these beliefs on the regular.

Also, I am not really interested in getting into a long conversation about mental illness here. It’s not you, Cohen, it’s just that every time there’s a mass murdering asshole article, mental illness is blamed by the media, and every time there’s someone who shows up in the comments to throw my friends under the bus to preserve the Good Society illusion. I’m tired of it.

Rhymenoceros
Rhymenoceros
3 years ago

5) Conveniently for Islamophobes, the thing that is most likely to label an act as political terrorism is if it has anything to do with Islam or Muslims. That means they can say “Of course, it’s Muslims who are doing all the terrorism”. Well, yeah, but you’re making “Muslim” a criteria for calling something “terrorist”, so of course!

I normally just read, and don’t usually comment, but you reminded me of something relevant that just annoyed me this morning. This article here:

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/gurski-why-the-toronto-attack-cant-be-called-terrorism-yet

Apparently this journalist thinks it’s too early to declare it a terrorist attack because the suspect is not a confirmed Muslim. As if that’s the only criteria.

He also writes this:

“Maybe the suspect had issues. Maybe he was on some kind of substance. Maybe he had just been fired. Maybe his marriage just broke up. Maybe he is mentally disturbed. I have no idea, do you?”

As if having issues and being a terrorist are mutually exclusive?

There was also another article on the CBC this morning about the futility of adding labels to this type of incident. I find that opinion naive and reductive. Yes, I agree, labeling people as single thing is not helpful (see above – “He’s not a terrorist, he’s mentally ill! Case closed!”), but affixing the correct label to something can be very constructive. For example, maybe labeling this as a ‘terrorist attack’ may give people cause to take misogynistic groups, that idolize mass murderers and wax poetic about murder and rape fantasies, a little more seriously, instead of dismissing them as ‘loney, laughable losers’. Considering, in the past 4 years, there seems to be at least 2 mass murdering ‘incels’.

But that’s just my opinion. I am definitely not an expert, just frustrated.

Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
Valentin - Emigrantski Ragamuffin
3 years ago

) It is easier for troubled people to be radicalized- if you’re reasonably content you’re not going to be drawn into a toxic ideology or into a belief that killing or maiming other people is a good idea

actually I don’t think this is true at all. most incels and entitled mysoginst men are white men who grow in middle class or wealthy families. they also grow there with plenty entitlement – they have very less suffering, most things are given to them without effort, they don’t have to work for things. this means their entitlement grows more and becomes like a disease. when women will not just “given” themself to them – they become angry.

“I get everything I want – and I want a woman! you deny me this! women deny me themself!” and they become angry and confused because they don’t get what they want, because they learn they get everything and think everything belongs to them if they want it.

mental illness or “disturbed” is nothing related.

and edit: their nice life in a little box means they don’t see other people as human – that is why it is so easy for them to hurt other people without guilt.

plus – I know I am not alone that I am SO TIRED of this arguement on mammoth when mass killing happens. 🤦

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
3 years ago

@Cindy
Haha it is rather a long post. I didn’t realise until I read it back.

Actually, you made a throwaway comment to be fair, I have a lot of thoughts I have been mulling over since this first happened.

Jo
Jo
3 years ago

@Cohen

If my comment about the incel mindset wasn’t already far too long, I’d have added examples of where our wider society supports the fledgling incel on his journey from entitled youngster to terrorist. The end of the journey may involve online communities like the ones in David’s post, but the start is very much grounded in common social tropes.

Which is to say, I absolutely agree.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

For the reeducation angle : remember, it’s impossible to make someone change if he don’t want to. Or at least, you need chinese-level of atrocities.

Yes. There’s nothing wrong with reforming shitty people and putting effort into doing so. As long as those people who wish to do so don’t 1. expect those targeted for hate to be the ones doing the bulk of the work and 2. recognize that people do have to want to change or it’s not going to work. Nobody’s going to ever change for the better if there’s no hope in rehabilitating their reputation. So I’m fine with forgiving past hate as long as the change really seems genuine.

People do need to understand though that there’s no magic formula to manospherians or white nationalists or whatever to change. No phrase or reassuring words that will cause a light bulb to go off. They have to be actually willing to listen to other people and to be a little bit hard on themselves and their assumptions. Most people don’t want to do that.

I think the reason misogynists can be so difficult to reform is related to the other conversation in the thread. Which is that women are usually expected to be the ones to provide the emotional support for men and counsel them through their problems. But misogynists don’t listen to women. And women for good reason aren’t willing or able to be their shoulder to cry on. It’s not safe and it’s too emotionally taxing. That’s why we get so many coming in here asking us to sympathize with and help incels and that’s why they get such a hostile reception when they do.

Yutolia
Yutolia
3 years ago

As a person with mental illness, I can tell you that I am absolutely sick of us being blamed for this shit. I know why people do it, but that doesn’t change the fact that blaming us perpetuates harmful stereotypes and just makes our lives that much harder. It needs to stop. It’s not mental illness that causes this – these guys are poisoned by their own entitlement.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

@left_wing_fox

Are… are you me? You basically summed up my life trajectory right there (including the furry fandom and Pandagon/Marcotte). Only I haven’t heard of Captain Awkward; for me, it was spending a lot of time in the atheist YouTubes during the late Bush early Obama years, then seeing them channel the same misogyny their cultural warrior counterparts did after “ElevatorGate”.

Unfortunately, having said all that, I don’t have any real insight into paths out of radicalization for others, or a way to reach these guys. All the things that helped keep my head in my ass are pretty much gone: culture is much more inclusive, geek culture is dominant, there are far more inclusive and wide-ranging fandoms, and easier places to interact online. And yet, we get gamergate, where dudes harass women in favor of virtual titties, then whine that no women wants them. It’s a self-reinforcing downward spiral egged on by fucking monsters.

I think the only permanent answers involve breaking the capitalistic consumer stranglehold on the commons. They’ve been told they’re the center of the universe and every whim of theirs should be indulged, whether it’s the latest AAA game, film or Netflix series. Damn near every cultural touchstone is that of the “special boy” who saves the universe and wins the girl, only they wake up to a gig economy, student debt, broken homes and fraying social connections.

That kind of cognitive dissonance is hard to break through piecemeal. But if I had one of these toxic guys in front of me… I’d probably take the tack that Chris Knight did in Real Genius when he had to convince Mitch Taylor not to give up:

Mitch: “You know I thought this place would be different, but it’s just the same. In high school, they shoved me in a mailbox, did I tell you that?”

Chris: “My teachers hated me because I was smarter than they were. Students hated me because I blew the bell curve. Sound familiar? Mitch, I was just like you! My mother dressed me in white shirts and hush puppies and carried a briefcase ensuring a girl would never talk to me. And when I got here for 3 years, I studied, all the time.”

Mitch: So… what, you’re saying I’m going to end up in a steam tunnel?

Chris: Yeah.

Mitch: What?

Chris: You are! If you keep up like this. Mitch, you don’t need to run away from here. When you’re smart, people need you. You can use your mind creatively.

I’m in my early 30s now, with university and high school more than a decade behind me. As such, got a lot of hindsight about how crappy the cliques were and how obnoxious a lot of the people you meet can be when you’re an awkward self-absorbed white kid. But I wasn’t the first and neither are any of teenagers flirting with the 4chan crowd. My advice would be find something creative and make it your own. I draw, write and photograph historic landmarks. Something that expands your world beyond your own narrow self.

The problem is that it takes work. The toxic internet communities out there offer easy solutions. You don’t have to care. You don’t even need to lift a finger. It’s those people to blame, so just troll them from your swivel chair.

I keep thinking of that Gibson Museum, which is right behind one of the office buildings that Alek Minassian blew past in his van, tucked away from Yonge Street by concrete and steel. The Gibson House is a restored 1851 farmhouse that offers a glimpse of life in what was a rural township back then. And I can attest: that life was tough. 40 buckets of well-water to a bath, plowing a field that stretched from Yonge Street to Bathurst, hay-filled mattresses for the lucky farmhand who slept indoors… I photographed it inside and out for an hour and a half the day before this tragedy, including David Gibson’s surveying equipment. All that history and knowledge just sitting right there… and this guy was obsessed with Chad and Stacy memes.

Just absurd even to type out.