By David Futrelle
The misogynistic men I write about on this blog — whether they classify themselves as perpetually dateless incels or “slayer” PUAs — are forever claiming that dating in the Western world, and in the United States in particular, is worse than ever, by which they generally mean that the women they think they’re entitled to seem to want nothing to do with them.
Women, these men complain, are too picky, too feminist, too … fat.
Not that the women they want to date are fat, they’re quick to add; it’s just that, with the allegedly undateable fat women out there effectively off the market (for these guys), the number of acceptably hot women has shrunk.
In one post on the Red Pill subreddit from a few years back that I ran across recently. a fellow called One_friendship_plz offered MATHEMATICAL PROOF of this fat-lady effect. Well, sort of.
In a post titled “Why fat women are ruining the dating scene for men, and how you should prepare for the future,” he declared:
It is high obesity rates (undateable women) and average girls overvaluing their looks causing the dating problem in the USA.
Really. that’s what’s making dating suck? Not things like, oh, this?
did something happen to men where they forgot to talk like human beings pic.twitter.com/wgMkJlQaj3
— . (@swordsjew) April 14, 2018
Apparently not.
Average girls overvalue themselves because they aren’t fat so have more men after them than what they would in a healthy-body sized country. There is basically not enough healthy-sized women to fill the rounds, and 97% of men want a healthy-sized female.
Never mind that he pulled this stat out of his ass and that most people are likely to disagree with Red Pillers as to what counts as a “healthy-sized female.”
When the obesity is closing in on half the population it is INEVITABLE that close to an equal portion of males are going to lose out on the dating game unless they resort to asian countries or they get desperate and.. shivers
I’m assuming that last bit is a reference to homosexuality? Because in addition to being wildly homophobic that’s just … not how sexuality works.
But back to the main point:
So half of all American men won’t be able to date because American women are slightly more likely to be obese than they are?
Red Pillers like to talk about obesity in America as if only women have been gaining weight. In fact, the rates of obesity aren’t radically different between adult women (41.1 percent of whom were classified as obese as of 2016) and adult men (37.9% of whom were classified as obese).
Even if we were to assume that every obese American was in fact “undateable,” which is very definitely not true, men and women would “lose out on the dating game” in similar numbers.
As long as obesity stays, even if women became less promiscuous and more loyal, the competition would still be about being a HIGH SMV [Sexual Market Value] male when there’s a huge portion of women that are undateable solely because of their uncontrollable consumption of mcdonalds.
And now it’s time for MATH:
An average girl can go up 2-3 points on her sexual value based on the percentage of obese women, and if this number keeps increasing then what you’d define to be a 5 would soon become a 7 because of its scarcity.
I would ask One_friendship_plz to show his work here, but obviously he has done none.
Ugly will become average, and average will become hot. and anything that would be hot would become a unicorn (even if it has a shitload of flaws, betas would be in denial.)
Says a dude in desperate denial of his own manifold flaws, most prominent among them the fact that he posts crap like this on Reddit.
Do not ever stop improving your value men, the game will possibly get harder in the future based on how much feminism spreads to the point six figures might not be enough for a decent looking chick in America.
Well, no, not if you’re a Red Pill shithead that rejects close to half of all women as “undateable” based on their weight and calls the few that meet the standards of your boner “decent looking chicks.”
As for me, I will continue fatting, and dating, as usual.
@ flexitarian hahuspex
point taken, apologies if I was out of line.
Iatsot: ‘what can I do to fix this? Just ask’
Errybody: ‘just relax? Just apologize normally and chill, it ain’t that deep’
Iatsot: ‘Can’t please you people! Well, if y’all hate me so much, I’ll leave’
Sorry, not tryna pile on, but that specific point, ‘tell me what to do to fix this’, even after people done already said how to fix this, and also more or less ignoring the people who subsequently said how to fix this, is a real gear grinder. Maybe just troll weary from the last week or so, but that’s really not on
No worries. 🙂 I just enjoy a good debate.
daw, thank you @LittleLurker. I do my best. It’s a tough situation! I like lastot (i do, honest!) and this whole thing stresses me out. I don’t want anyone to be offended or angry, certainly not over something I’ve said. It’s just tough.
@The whole cocksucking dynamic:
TMI: I’m going to talk about my sexual kinks here.
So, I’ve mentioned previously that I’m actually into humiliation as a kink. I enjoy it. And you’d (very likely not) be surprised how often that kink comes into contact with the person being humiliated sucking the cock (and sometimes eating the pussy of) the person doing the humiliation. It’s very much a huge, symbolic thing. The person who is “lesser” is kneeling or being made to service the “better”.
And that’s why I think I might take WWTH’s advice and not perform oral on a partner I’m not 100 percent okay with. Though, admittedly, due to my social anxiety I’m likely not to even engage in sexy time with a person like that until I’m at that level anyways. XD
However, if that humiliation ever steps outside of the bedroom, my partner would find out right quick that they only hold my leash because I allow it.
Which is hilarious to me in a certain way, because these goobers all seem to want the kind of sex I’m more than willing to give, it’s just the “respect me as an equal outside the bedroom” that they seem to have a hard time with.
/TMI
I’ve never been so proud to be called a cuck before.
God, MGTOWs are stupid.
This is a useful conversation for me at the moment as a recent exchange at Freethought Blogs addressed similar issues. I’ve been dropping every pajorative that I can identify that participates in shaming of a group. “Asshole” is one I’m seriously considering letting go of and the gendered ones have been easy to let go of.
“Fuck” is one I pause at and am interested in perspectives. The reason I pause is that there are two approaches here. Stop using the word, or force desensitization through use despite sensitivity. That second approach I almost never use because I don’t think that it’s my decision to make in most cases. But “fuck” seems so broadly applicable that there MIGHT be a case here (is there an asexual perspective here?) because I’ve been able to use it to demonstrate irrational thinking (but I’ll happily drop it if other perspectives show a problem). Let me give you an example.
When the situation in Ferguson occurred where Michael Brown was murdered by police and the police responded to protestors like a military force I responded with “fuck our racist police”. My family responded to the symbolic obscenity instead of the real one and I pointed it out. I recently carefully sprinkled “fuck” in a post on FTB where it could be functionally replaced by “care” (don’t give a fuck) and noticed similar behavior. Substance is ignored due to the presance of feeling that the other person could not handle.
I can’t claim to know for certain what the word summons in a person, but have a feeling that it’s related to our collective inability to deal with sex as a society. I’m data collecting and would love opinions.
@Brony
I’m curious as to your reasoning for potentially abandoning “asshole.”
I use it as my go-to personal insult because it strikes me as inherently nongendered (given that everyone’s got one); is there an issue with it?
@Brony
I’ve been trying to avoid fuck, especially “fuck you.” Because why is that an insult? Am I implying that sex should be used as violence against the person? I don’t mean it literally, of course, but symbolically is that what we’re using that phrase to mean?
Ditto. You think things through carefully – wondering what I’ve missed here.
@ Brony
Personally, I’m not against ‘fuck’ as a perjorative. In fact, it’s one of my favorite perjoratives. So versatile, so useful, and nearly universally applicaple. ‘Asshole’ is good, too, but I tend to use ‘asshat’ more. I don’t understand the problem with either, unless the general idea of obscene language is a problem.
I get that people want to distance the idea of sex with ‘badness’ and what have you. I even agree, because sex is fun for a lot of people.
From a cultural standpoint, though, I think it’s pretty impossible to stamp out every use of the word ‘fuck’ that doesn’t mean consensual physical happytimes. I doubt people will stop saying ‘fuck you’ when they mean ‘i abhor you/your ideology and everything you represent,’ or ‘get the fuck out’ when they mean ‘immediately vacate the premisis never to return,’ or ‘as fuck’ when they mean ‘to the farthest imaginable extreme.’
Thanks for the replies. I’ll think things over and respond to questions later tonight as I’ve got a lot on my plate.
Re: asshole. The short version is body shaming in a more general context. The body and body maps are like a foundation to cognition. Such insults spread negative feeling related to anatomy similar to how gendered insults do so for people with peniss, vaginas, breasts…we are colectively sloppy with language and feeling and it’s worth thinking about. I like to think of ways of undermining our social problems at this level.
In the end it’s still insult absent characteristics relative to more precise terms that still sting like incompetent or ignorant.
As a fan of the Trailer Park Boys, you can never go wrong with a good shit-nalogy. Jim Lahey (played by the late great John Dunsworth) was the master of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R8At-Qno_o
Ricky peppers some quality swears in between his Rickyisms, but I particularly liked when he chose to defend himself in court and couldn’t do it without smoking and swearing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GGL0qGk5lA
Ah, the masters at work.
Hello All,
It’s been ages, but you’re still a great group, who give me both laughs and lessons.
I have a question/ponderation I would like your insight/opinions on, but only if you feel so inclined. I promise I will just listen, no doubling nor down 😉
Reading the exchange with latsot brought up a lot of feelings for me, and questions about WHY I have those feelings.
I have been actively reading about Social Justice for about 5 years now, and over that time I have learnt a lot, and my perspectives have changed for the better/left-er.
But there is one thing I still struggle with on an emotional level…
In THEORY I completely agree with the idea that, to get a better society/group/commentsection/world, when someone corrects you,
you thank them for doing it, take the info on board, and move on.
But….butbutbutbutbut something deep inside me starts SCREAMING when I see exchanges like that happening. Also, I do see many conversations about social justice issues break down on/at that point.
Here is what I’ve come up with so far:
Even though a lot of people NEED to be TOLD, and important stuff at that, no-one LIKES to be told. I once did an experiment with myself, trying to not immediately get defensive or at least try to explain whý I did it/that there was no malicious intent, when I would get criticised. Trying to resist that urge was like trying to not cough when you smoke for the first time…I obviously failed 😉
I think, for me personally, it has something to do with deep feelings of hierarchy. Not so much might = right, as right = might.
If a person tells me off, then they are, to my lizard brain (and I dare venture that of many others) saying: a) I’m better than you b) you are shit. Only the most evolved among us can hear criticism without taking it personally, and reacting from that.
To me, when I accept criticism without defense/explanation, it feels like I’m saying to the other person: Yes, you are higher and better than me, and from now on you can walk all over me forever.
Unfortunately in this world, some criticism is super important for other people to feel/be safe, whereas other criticism is indeed shit or pointless. But to our egos, it all feels the same. We react to the criticism as threat, not to its content.
This is just some rambling, but I’m really struggling with this stuff. Any views/pointers/trashings would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance, emotional roadblock.
With respect, Brony, I think I must disagree with you about the use of harsh language.
(EDIT: Lots of people got there before I did. My original, heavily ninja’d post is below.)
In my experience, when a person objects to a phrase like “fuck the police”, they will usually say that they object to the over-the-top and aggressive nature of it. They will say that if you only moderate your position, they will be happy to meet you halfway.
If you moderate your position, then you may be surprised to find that they do not meet you halfway. Instead, they continue objecting to your now-weakened position just as ardently as they did before. They may ask you to weaken it further, promising that they will consider it more favourably if you do so. This, too, is an untruth.
Several years ago, when the atheist movement had yet to collapse into the cesspit it is today, a British atheist group commissioned a set of adverts on the side of buses. “There’s probably no God,” the adverts said, “So you may as well enjoy yourself.” It attracted a storm of protests. Chastened, the atheists commissioned a second set of adverts with the weakest, least offensive message imaginable: the single word “Atheists.” It, too, attracted a storm of protest just as fierce as the first.
It is my experience that if a person objects to the strong form of your position, then they will also object to everything except you remaining silent. The thing they dislike about your words isn’t the harshness, but that they’re being used for a cause they oppose.
It’s also an act of bad allyship, in my opinion. If a black person stands up and shouts “fuck the police”, for example, and I as a white person do not follow their lead, then I’m implying that I know more about how to carry out race activism than they do, which is not the act of an ally at all. If I do that then I become just another of the white moderates that Martin Luther King Jr threw shade upon.
This doesn’t mean that one needs to use such language constantly; but there is a place for it.
We’re generally pretty OK with the word 😀
That said, agree with @kupo that ‘fuck you’ is a lil gross. Have been tryna replace it with ‘fuck off’ or ‘fuck outta here’. Except as a joke, usually with people I actually would fuck, cos that’s just fun 🙂 Which is just me saying context matters. Who you’re saying it to and in relation to what. That kinda thing
I’ve always been quite happy with “asshole” to be honest. I like it because pretty much everyone has an asshole so it applies to all the human race.
@lastot – I certainly didn’t mean to sound like I thought you should stop commenting altogether! I was pointing out that I thought you’d been a bit insensitive on this one particular occasion.
It really wasn’t meant to be a general comment on you as an entire person – please don’t take it as such.
So, what about “go fuck yourself”?
I’m not a linguist, but I understood that the word “fuck” was associated with violence before it was associated with sex; and was used in early-modern times to imply violent sex, much as we would use the terms “wreck” or “destroy” today. That being the case, should we not keep the term for violence and stop using it for sex?
That might be something of a lost cause, though. Language changes and etymology is less important than usage.
@EJ(TOO)
I’ve definitely run across what Brony is talking about. Most notably, the guy who thought the only problem with “grab them by the pussy” was the word “pussy.” Similarly, lots of WASPs here in the U.S. have no problem with expressing homicidal sentiments, especially towards [insert minority group here], but you’d better not use the f-word. America is messed up.
@Well traditioned female
Other folk, smarter and more verbose, can take most of it, but:
Same reason. Survival instinct.
You are, like everyone, quite heavily invested in assuming you will and do make the right choices in a situation.
In a rough situation, wrong choices, hesitation, and second guessing tends to leave corpses.
You need to know that you aren’t going to be one of those corpses – or again, you will be (it’s a bit of a catch 22, but brains don’t work too well). Anything that challenges that internal assumption is a threat.
This is actually the exact reason why I refused to compromise my position whenever I would get into arguments on the forum I used to frequent. People who said they might agree with me if only I were a bit less aggressive weren’t actually interested in agreeing with me.
@WTF:
For a while, when I first started visiting this website, even when I wasn’t contributing to threads I’d occasionally read comments that made me feel defensive because they challenged preconceived notions that I held. And hey, sometimes I still do feel defensive about certain topics. It can be difficult to take criticism. I find it helpful myself to think about taking criticism not as submitting to somebody who is “more right” than me but rather as learning and growing from their knowledge and experiences.
And yet… I find its ridiculous overly-patriotic novelty songs of the 80s so charmingly cheesy. Seriously, Living In America and I Am A Real American are just catchy enough to be a blast to listen to on repeat.
It’s just a pity that all the Trump supporters swarm any YouTube comment section proclaiming them their anthems. If the MAGA-CHUDs really think James Brown would have voted for Trump… m’kay, the abusive prick is all yours.
@dslucia thank you. For me it’s not even so much about the content of the criticism (both witnessed online, or received IRL), but about criticism in general. ‘Pushover Fear’ might be a good working title here…
Maybe also the fear that the giver of the criticism might see your agreement as an invitation to start asserting their dominance over you…thin end of the wedge stuff. None of this paints a very pretty picture of me/people, but I think it’s important to know where our impulses and reactions truly come from, to be able to deal with them effectively.
https://youtu.be/f317tZ11cZQ