By David Futrelle
The misogynistic men I write about on this blog — whether they classify themselves as perpetually dateless incels or “slayer” PUAs — are forever claiming that dating in the Western world, and in the United States in particular, is worse than ever, by which they generally mean that the women they think they’re entitled to seem to want nothing to do with them.
Women, these men complain, are too picky, too feminist, too … fat.
Not that the women they want to date are fat, they’re quick to add; it’s just that, with the allegedly undateable fat women out there effectively off the market (for these guys), the number of acceptably hot women has shrunk.
In one post on the Red Pill subreddit from a few years back that I ran across recently. a fellow called One_friendship_plz offered MATHEMATICAL PROOF of this fat-lady effect. Well, sort of.
In a post titled “Why fat women are ruining the dating scene for men, and how you should prepare for the future,” he declared:
It is high obesity rates (undateable women) and average girls overvaluing their looks causing the dating problem in the USA.
Really. that’s what’s making dating suck? Not things like, oh, this?
did something happen to men where they forgot to talk like human beings pic.twitter.com/wgMkJlQaj3
— . (@swordsjew) April 14, 2018
Apparently not.
Average girls overvalue themselves because they aren’t fat so have more men after them than what they would in a healthy-body sized country. There is basically not enough healthy-sized women to fill the rounds, and 97% of men want a healthy-sized female.
Never mind that he pulled this stat out of his ass and that most people are likely to disagree with Red Pillers as to what counts as a “healthy-sized female.”
When the obesity is closing in on half the population it is INEVITABLE that close to an equal portion of males are going to lose out on the dating game unless they resort to asian countries or they get desperate and.. shivers
I’m assuming that last bit is a reference to homosexuality? Because in addition to being wildly homophobic that’s just … not how sexuality works.
But back to the main point:
So half of all American men won’t be able to date because American women are slightly more likely to be obese than they are?
Red Pillers like to talk about obesity in America as if only women have been gaining weight. In fact, the rates of obesity aren’t radically different between adult women (41.1 percent of whom were classified as obese as of 2016) and adult men (37.9% of whom were classified as obese).
Even if we were to assume that every obese American was in fact “undateable,” which is very definitely not true, men and women would “lose out on the dating game” in similar numbers.
As long as obesity stays, even if women became less promiscuous and more loyal, the competition would still be about being a HIGH SMV [Sexual Market Value] male when there’s a huge portion of women that are undateable solely because of their uncontrollable consumption of mcdonalds.
And now it’s time for MATH:
An average girl can go up 2-3 points on her sexual value based on the percentage of obese women, and if this number keeps increasing then what you’d define to be a 5 would soon become a 7 because of its scarcity.
I would ask One_friendship_plz to show his work here, but obviously he has done none.
Ugly will become average, and average will become hot. and anything that would be hot would become a unicorn (even if it has a shitload of flaws, betas would be in denial.)
Says a dude in desperate denial of his own manifold flaws, most prominent among them the fact that he posts crap like this on Reddit.
Do not ever stop improving your value men, the game will possibly get harder in the future based on how much feminism spreads to the point six figures might not be enough for a decent looking chick in America.
Well, no, not if you’re a Red Pill shithead that rejects close to half of all women as “undateable” based on their weight and calls the few that meet the standards of your boner “decent looking chicks.”
As for me, I will continue fatting, and dating, as usual.
As for perjoratives in general…
http://monsterlegacy.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/vermithraxheadside22.jpg
Vermithrax Perjorative, both the best dragon AND the best perjorative!!
@latsot
This isn’t about scoring points. It’s about making our members who happen to suck cocks feel comfortable. Stop.
As for specific perjoratives, why is that such a contentious minefield? Because society’s perjoratives, much like society’s humor, are very, VERY often rooted in mockery of those less powerful.
Words to mock weakness (which may be ableist in itself) often mock physical injury or disability
… to mock poor judgement often mock mental illness
… to mock, well, pretty much anything the speaker doesn’t like… often mock people of non-cis-non-hetero gender/sexual orientation
every freakin’ thing mocks women or femininity…
and so on, and so on and scooby-dooby-doo.
E.T.A. “ooooo, sha-sha… we got to live together…”
that seemed to be an appropriate addendum…
((I get way more long winded and pedantic than usual in this one, mea culpa. lastot, I’m not writing this to pile on or make you feel bad, and I’m sorry if it makes you feel that way. You just tripped. That’s okay, we all do.))
<3 lastot; I was a bit surprised by your reaction to this, because you've been here a long time and are a good egg.
Your use of the word "cocksucker" as a curse didn't surprise or phase me much. It's a good curse! It's a big, lumbering word, bumpy in the right places, rolls off the tongue. Has a good mouth feel.
All from an aural perspective of course.
Ahem. Anyways…
Others have pointed out why "cocksucker" is a bad insult in the same way as "gay" is a bad insult – it hurts people you don't intend to hurt. I'll leave that be, that's clear. Instead I want to point out something else. Not to chastise you, I'm not doing that! You’ve got a unique opportunity here, and I want to make sure you get the most out of it.
I’m about to say something that might sting a bit. You are reacting in much the same way as the reaction Rebecca Watson got for saying “Guys, don’t do that,” which kicked off Elevatorgate and all of that nonsense. I’m not saying that to say that you’re just as bad! because you aren’t just as bad as all that. I’m pointing out that there’s a congruity there, that part of your thought processes have been hijacked by your self-preservation processes.
Think back to the moment you read Pie’s complaint and request, the feelings you felt. Anger, perhaps; maybe confusion. Whatever those feelings were, those are the warning signs you have that you’re about to put your shields up. Those are the things that get in the way of your ability to learn and change.
I used to get defensive very easily; I still do. The last part of my name here is a reminder to myself to not do that.
When you feel the anger or confusion or panic rise, learn to force it back down, dissolve it, whatever. Learn to accept guilt and blame, even when you don’t think you did anything wrong. Taking in that measure of guilt-at-being-wrong will let the incompatible idea in past your walls. Later, when the moment has passed and your heart has cooled, you will be able to look at the idea with calmer eyes and evaluate it on its own merits.
Let the painful thing in, in its entirety; let it cut you as deeply as it can. Encourage the painful feelings, the guilt and the shame and the uncertainty. That’s the feeling of ossified beliefs softening, and is the only way that you’ll be able to grow. Crack your own bark and let new shoots sprout through.
<3
@Shadowplay:
“Motherfucker” immediately springs to mind (if directed at a man), but that really just suggests moving the goalpost slightly to “heterosexual, PiV activity that does not involve money changing hands or incest”. Or dead bodies or wild or barnyard animals, one supposes.
There’s plenty based on masturbation, for what that’s worth…
And then there’s virgin-shaming, which is typically based on heterosexual, PiV activity not having occurred. And which some of the masturbation based insults are likely meant to imply, when coming from ignorant enough people.
latsot… i don’t generally comment here but you’re being SO embarrassing, i feel compelled to save you from yourself. i know i can’t, probably. but please, try to maybe not write whole missives on why you shouldn’t have to apologize while you’re in the middle of apologizing. that kinda takes the apology down a notch, don’t you think?
a few other things:
– intent is not everything. you didn’t mean to be offensive but you WERE. if you didn’t mean to step on my foot but you do, it still hurts me and you still need to stop.
-you’re sorry “without the slightest caveat” ?? uhh i’ve seen nothing but caveats for like 4 posts from you.
– “knock yourself out” = “SIGH! poor me, i guess i’ll just be persecuted needlessly like the martyr i am without complaining a lot, loudly, right now”
-“i read i listen i learn” = “GOLLYGOSH I REALLY DO MY BEST don’t be so hard on poor me!”
like, really. you’re doing that A LOT. try to just be like… “hey i get it, i’m sorry. let’s move on to the next actually relevant topic”
good luck buddy.
Stop what? I am not doubling down on my intention to use the word “cocksucker”. I have made it perfectly clear that I understand why the word was hurtful. I have said several times that I won’t say it again and I hope I’ve made it clear that I meant no harm by it.
Intent isn’t magic and I might have done harm. I’m sincerely sorry if I have and I’ll do whatever I can to help. Just ask. Sincerely, if I’ve hurt you I will do everything I can to make it right.
Intent isn’t magic, but it’s worth something. My intent is fairly clear. I’m not digging, I’m not doubling down.
@Surplus
Plenty on shaming, of course.
About the only “vanilla” level insult I can recall was a sergeant who used to dismiss persistant and aggrieved stupidity (of which there is shitloads when training a bunch of know-all 18-20 year olds) by giving the victim a withering look and saying “Ah, go fuck your missus.”
Doubling down.
Saying you won’t do it again, telling people they’re being unreasonable and even adding in a little dig at the end with “for goodness sake”
A sorry, not sorry.
Saying that you’ll stop without any caveats and then immediately giving a caveat. And why do you need to defend yourself? If you’d just said “sorry, I won’t use it again” there wouldn’t even be a fight. Is using cocksucking that big a deal? No one suspected you of ill intent until you started defending yourself.
Then even after all that, Shadowplay and Dslucia extended an olive branch to you and you slapped it away
and accused everyone of scoring points without considering that they might have real reasons for objecting to the language.
It really doesn’t seem like anyone was ever out to get you. You just keep insisting that they are. That’s why people are telling you to stop digging.
Wow, really?
Not doubting you in the slightest, but I’ve never recognized that before (doubtless a function of male privilege). That’s really fucked up. And really counter-productive.
Thanks for educating me.
Giving oral to a guy, for a woman, is roughly on par with bringing him a beer and a sandwich.
**Recalls the usual response to “make me a sandwich.”** 😛
What some of you see as embarrassing is plain sincerity. I do understand all your points and I didn’t argue against them in the first place. I’m not angry, I’m not embarrassed, I’m not panicking, I’m just sincere.
Please let me say for the final time:
1. I understand why the phrase “cocksucker” is offensive.
2. I don’t justify its use.
3. If I’ve hurt anyone, I’ll do whatever I can to help.
I used the term as a way of emphasizing a point, not as a means of attack. I understand perfectly well how it can be seen as an attack and – more importantly – as an expression of a status quo none of us want.
@Scildfreja: That’s rather hurtful. I was there – not in the actual elevator but in the building before it happened and in Rebecca’s talk the next day. I spent years defending the idea that guys just shouln’t do that and while I didn’t get a millionth of the shit she did, I got a fair amount. My family was targeted and I had to get the police involved. Please don’t tar me with that brush and don’t assume you know the slightest thing about me. Project all you like but you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Suit yourselves, I don’t support the status quo you seem to think I do, I’ve done quite a lot to overturn that sort of thinking over the last few years and I’ve tried to be a friend to everyone who has needed it.
Scild wasn’t calling you a misogynist or a harasser. She was pointing out the similarity in that the whole kerfuffle started because of a bad reaction on your part to be asked not to do something.
I’ll repeat myself because you’re not getting it. The issue isn’t that we don’t see that you’ve apologized. The issue isn’t that we think you’re an MRA troll. The issue is that every single apology and statement of good intent involves you telling people that they’re mean for having criticized, were unreasonable to ask you not to use the term, or accusations of point scoring or trying to drive you off.
Once again, all you had to do was say “sorry, I won’t use the term again” and just fucking drop it. It wasn’t a personal attack.
Oh, and this
Is still doubling down. No one actually cares why you used the term or what you meant. The request was simply to stop using it.
I think it’s best you stop posting for an hour or so, come back and reread the thread and try to see where everyone is coming from. Because right now, you’re still being defensive and that’s making things worse. After you’ve calmed down a bit, you might see that the requests to drop the term were not done in an attacking way.
Misogynists have a fixation on oral sex. Actually, many simultaneous fixations.
They’re entitled to it. Also it makes women sluts. DO NOT perform oral on a woman. OR ON A MAN, THAT IS SO GAY ! Except when it’s not, like when it’s MGTOW bros just chilling and giving each other blowjobs. BUT NOT ON WOMEN, EW. Except to then guilt them into returning the favor. Still, giving oral to a woman is what cucks do.
They hate sex with a passion, and will suck the joy out of it for both their partners and themselves.
No, I’m done. I’m not your enemy and you’re piling on the wrong person. I have listened and learned. If only you could do the same.
@ WWTH
^this, so much. I actually am quite a happy cocksucker in the correct circumstances, but dudes who disrespect those willing to perform oral sex on them dig their own graves.
@ lolsot
I accept your apology and trust that you’re not actually a bad person for misjudging your audience.
I think it’s a domination thing. It’s a assumed that women don’t actually enjoy giving oral sex, so if a woman does it, it’s because the man has somehow gotten her to do it. Then there’s the symbolism of the man standing, the woman on her knees.
It’s not just in the manosphere. All over pop culture, women are depicted as giving oral sex only because she’s being dominated or because she has low self esteem and is desperate for male approval. As usual, manospherians just take the bullshit out there in the patriarchy and amplify it to its biggest extreme.
How many people have explicitly said they do not view you as an enemy or a bad person now? Five or six?
That’s why I suggested taking a break and rereading the thread to see the criticism was not that harsh.
But very well. You would prefer to martyr yourself. Have fun with that.
I don’t know how much these news have spread outside of Sweden, but there’s a lot of shit going down in the Swedish Academy (the body that awards the Nobel prize in literature) at the moment.
Horace Engdal, academy member and former secretary of the academy, has said a lot of shitty things in connection with this shit going down, and that’s made people bring up to light again some terrible shit he wrote in a collection of aphorisms (or supposed aphorisms) a few years ago. I quote: “Full penetration: Eternal victory for the man, eternal defeat for the woman”. He’s since doubled down on it and was like “but everyone knows women are made less valuable by having sex, I’m just stating what everyone knows!”. So yeah. There are definitely men out there who despise the women who have sex with them.
The worst part of all that nonsense is then women and others who enjoy giving blow jobs internalize that idea of domination/etc, and become reluctant to practice it on just any old lover for the sake of mutual enjoyment. It’s the most self-defeating kind of kink-shaming, since most dudes enjoy oral sex, but their idea of what it means to receive it ends up putting off people who would enjoy giving it.
Manospherians, shooting themselves in the foot since time imemorial.
wwth wrote:
I’m reminded of an incident from a while back where a man at a sporting event came upon a man dressed in the other team’s colors, passed out with his mouth open… the man’s response was to commit oral rape, as that was the ultimate insult
This also has been the case in several rape incidents involving intoxicated women as well.
@lastot, I’m sorry it was hurtful. It was hurtful. I know you’re a good guy because I’ve seen you post here many times and you’ve always been a calm, positive voice. I guess that’s why your reaction was so jarring and has all knotted up like this; it feels very much out of place.
I didn’t know you were there when that happened! I’m very much unsurprised that you spent all your time defending her, and I’m glad you did. You certainly didn’t deserve any of the hate they poured on you for that either. I don’t at all mean to conflate you with them, because the only similarities are that you reacted defensively to someone saying “please don’t do that.” Which everyone does, it’s an incredibly normal thing. Normal and wrong, but still very normal. So I’m sorry that struck a little close to home; I didn’t want an example that was as jarring as it ended up being.
Perhaps this is a better analogy: I know good people – honestly progressive, nice people – who use the words “cunt”, “fag”, and “gay” as slurs. They do this in an unconscious sort of a way because they can, because it’s not dangerous or hurtful for them. When they get called out for it, they say that they don’t mean it in a hurtful way, it’s just an insult. They get defensive.
The whole point of my post was to point out that the moment of knee-jerk defensiveness is a defense against being corrected – even if the correction is a good one. I know you care about rationality and coming to the right conclusions of things. The impulse to defend yourself is the enemy of reason, and it’s a nasty, insidious thing.
I’m sorry the analogy I used before stung, and I hope that you can forgive me for it. I’m not writing this to pile on to you, I’m trying to show you a tool for self-improvement and give you something positive from this mess. It’s done me worlds of good, and I think it will suit you well once you try it once or twice.
@ Weird Eddie
I’ve been reading/listening to a whole lotta books about true crime and the motivations of rapists/serial sexual murderers/etc. For rapists, sex is a weapon , therfore I would argue that using instances of rape doesn’t qualify in a discussion of consensual cocksucking. Not to say that society in general doesn’t take a dim view of fellatio and the people who perform it, but seriously, we weren’t talking about crime and victimization. That’s an extreme, and I counter with a virginal nun.
@Scild
Thank you for all you do here. Your explanations and your patience. I learn a lot from you. And you just demonstrated how to deal with apologising really gracefully, too. You always write these long, detailed replies and I want to tell you it’s really not wasted. It makes a difference. It helps, especially since you sometimes tell us about your own past difficulties, too. 🙂