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Angry Red Piller offers MATHEMATICAL PROOF that fat women are ruining dating by being equally fat as men or something

Happy fat women: The Red Pill’s worst nightmare

By David Futrelle

The misogynistic men I write about on this blog — whether they classify themselves as perpetually dateless incels or “slayer” PUAs — are forever claiming that dating in the Western world, and in the United States in particular, is worse than ever, by which they generally mean that the women they think they’re entitled to seem to want nothing to do with them.

Women, these men complain, are too picky, too feminist, too … fat.

Not that the women they want to date are fat, they’re quick to add; it’s just that, with the allegedly undateable fat women out there effectively off the market (for these guys), the number of acceptably hot women has shrunk.

In one post on the Red Pill subreddit from a few years back that I ran across recently. a fellow called One_friendship_plz offered MATHEMATICAL PROOF of this fat-lady effect. Well, sort of.

In a post titled “Why fat women are ruining the dating scene for men, and how you should prepare for the future,” he declared:

It is high obesity rates (undateable women) and average girls overvaluing their looks causing the dating problem in the USA.

Really. that’s what’s making dating suck? Not things like, oh, this?

Apparently not.

Average girls overvalue themselves because they aren’t fat so have more men after them than what they would in a healthy-body sized country. There is basically not enough healthy-sized women to fill the rounds, and 97% of men want a healthy-sized female.

Never mind that he pulled this stat out of his ass and that most people are likely to disagree with Red Pillers as to what counts as a “healthy-sized female.”

When the obesity is closing in on half the population it is INEVITABLE that close to an equal portion of males are going to lose out on the dating game unless they resort to asian countries or they get desperate and.. shivers

I’m assuming that last bit is a reference to homosexuality? Because in addition to being wildly homophobic that’s just … not how sexuality works.

But back to the main point:

So half of all American men won’t be able to date because American women are slightly more likely to be obese than they are?

Red Pillers like to talk about obesity in America as if only women have been gaining weight. In fact, the rates of obesity aren’t radically different between adult women (41.1 percent of whom were classified as obese as of 2016) and adult men (37.9% of whom were classified as obese).

Even if we were to assume that every obese American was in fact “undateable,” which is very definitely not true, men and women would “lose out on the dating game” in similar numbers.

As long as obesity stays, even if women became less promiscuous and more loyal, the competition would still be about being a HIGH SMV [Sexual Market Value] male when there’s a huge portion of women that are undateable solely because of their uncontrollable consumption of mcdonalds.

And now it’s time for MATH:

An average girl can go up 2-3 points on her sexual value based on the percentage of obese women, and if this number keeps increasing then what you’d define to be a 5 would soon become a 7 because of its scarcity.

I would ask One_friendship_plz to show his work here, but obviously he has done none.

Ugly will become average, and average will become hot. and anything that would be hot would become a unicorn (even if it has a shitload of flaws, betas would be in denial.)

Says a dude in desperate denial of his own manifold flaws, most prominent among them the fact that he posts crap like this on Reddit.

Do not ever stop improving your value men, the game will possibly get harder in the future based on how much feminism spreads to the point six figures might not be enough for a decent looking chick in America.

Well, no, not if you’re a Red Pill shithead that rejects close to half of all women as “undateable” based on their weight and calls the few that meet the standards of your boner “decent looking chicks.”

As for me, I will continue fatting, and dating, as usual.

 

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Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

*sigh* If only this mindset was limited to just a handful of internet douchebags. But I have to imagine that a lot of the cultural artifacts floating around out there of the schlubby blue-collar guy married to a conventionally attractive woman (see The Honeymooners and everything it influenced, from The Flintstones to The Simpsons) have made only cemented this entitlement in the Western* psyche as a whole. Ironically, The Simpsons, the show that was initially meant to parody that trope went on to inspire even more copycats like practically everything Kevin James has done.

But let us take a moment to honour this trope in the way that only MST3K can:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seJSVbE9cxc

*This entitlement exists everywhere, but I’m sure there are some parts of the world that didn’t consume The Honeymooners.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

@Pie

“Cocksucking” is not pejorative. “Holy cocksucking Christ” is and deliberately so. The “holy” and the “Christ” might give away the context. My using the phrase was a deliberate attempt to emphasise the statement I was making, which was about Dahl being an awful misogynist as is clear from the most cursory examination of anything he ever said or did.

We might as well rule out “fucking” as an insult because quite a lot of people like to fuck.

You’re right that we have to be careful about how we use language. Let’s not be foolish, though. References to sex, oral or otherwise, are commonly used for the purposes I used it here without any intention to shame.

But fair enough, I’ll stick with Holy Cock-Cuddling Christ from now on. Thanks.

But Dahl really was horribly misogynistic. Just about every episode of his Tales of the Expected was about how awful women are and his personal introductions to those episodes display nothing short of glee in that misogyny. In person, he delighted in humiliating his wife in public and in front of his lovers. I’m not sure how a girl as a protagonist in one of his books mitigates this shitty behaviour in the slightest.

Matilda is my hero, especially as Tim Minchin has helped render her, but Dahl is still an absolutely deplorable character.

Katamount
Katamount
3 years ago

In other news, hey whatddya know… gamification of mass murder statistics seem to have influenced a mass murderer!

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/quebec-mosque-shooter-alexandre-bissonnette-trawled-trumps-twitter-feed

Oh, and look, all of the anti-Muslim flotsam caking up the US media apparatus influenced him too:

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/ywxeyg/here-are-the-far-right-conspiracists-the-quebec-city-mosque-shooter-followed

I’m probably more nationalistic than most of my brethren on the left side of the equation, because this is the kind of thing that gets my hackles up. It’s bad enough that Americans are killing each other in the way they are, but I pretty much wrote off American citizenship meaning anything to Americans in terms of unity or brotherhood once I saw the naked social Darwinism on display during the health care debate. “Would you just let that person die?” “YEAH!” (To say nothing of Jim Crow, the plight of the indigenous etc, but the unity sheen of 9/11 evaporated mighty quick, didn’t it?). But when somebody I must call a countryman kills my other countrymen based on the hate bubbling up from south of the border… that I can’t abide. Canada’s got her own fair share of hateful assholes, but it doesn’t have a fraction of the media apparatus available to their American counterparts. Ezra Levant was languishing in obscurity when he was on SunTV. It wasn’t until Rebel Media took to the States than people kinda sorta almost knew who he was, and you can be sure that Levant’s xenophobic proteges wouldn’t have gained the traction they did without a handful of crackpot right-wing American billionaires.

In short, Canada’s got plenty of work to do RE: hate and intolerance, but American media complex… not helping!

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ latsot;

Context is important in another sense, though. This is a socially conscious web site, and we try to treat each other with respect. It is also a very feminist and intersectional group, and the tolerance level for arbitrary dismissal of other members’ concerns is low.

I once posted about a weight loss goal I was hoping to meet, and I was asked by another member to please not post of weight loss as an arbitrary “good thing”, as they were struggling with body image issues. I replies with an apology and agreed to keep that to myself.

There are an infinite number of perjoratives which can be used in lieu of one mocking a sexual preference.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@Weird Eddie

Thank you. You word good.

Using sex acts/preferences as an insult pisses me off an inordinate amount.

Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
Violet the Vile, Wielder of an Ideologically Weaponised Vagina
3 years ago

@latsot

The polite response is “sorry I upset you” (without any qualifications or doubling down).

There are some words I think are absolutely fine to use, but I know people who are offended by those words. So I still use the words, but not in front of them.

It’s not up to you to decide what someone else should think is offensive.

Croquembouche, extrenely mamal omen
Croquembouche, extrenely mamal omen
3 years ago

Thank you Weird Eddie.

Also, the “holy” and the “Christ” juxtaposed with the “cocksucking” is kind of contrary to the spirit of not disparaging other peoples religious beliefs. If you want to critique a whole religion, maybe just do that – though that’s not really in the spirit of this place either.

Otherwise, maybe find some other way to add emphasis, if that’s all you meant to do?

latslot, you’ve been commenting here longer than I have, kinda surprised you reacted so defensively to fair comment about your choice of words there, and the implications they carry.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

There are an infinite number of perjoratives which can be used in lieu of one mocking a sexual preference.

I wasn’t mocking a sexual preference. Is using the word “fuck” mocking a sexual preference? It gets used fairly often around here.

I won’t say the word again here. Fair enough, I get that it hurts people and I don’t want to do that. But honestly, there’s a difference between using and mentioning a word. I was talking about a horrible person behaving horribly and it turns out that my use of a particular word was the most harmful thing?

For goodness’ sake.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

Tangentially related (to blog, not this particular thread) and since there’s a lot of A Handmaids Tale fans here: Handmaid’s Tale inspired lingerie.

Not sure if this is foolish, insulting, stupid, or brilliant. Tending to the first three – but I’m neither a designer nor a millionaire.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

@Croquembouche

Fair enough, I was totally disparaging other people’s religious beliefs. AND I’D DO IT AGIAIN!!!!

But not here.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

@Violet

I haven’t doubled down. I’ve said that I won’t use that particular word again here and that I’ll be more careful without caveat. I get to defend myself though, until it becomes tiresome, which is right about now.

I think I’ve been polite, which is why I’m going to sto

dslucia
dslucia
3 years ago

@latsot:

The societal context behind why “cocksucker” is an insult is pretty much the same as the context for why people use “gay” as an insult. Because “cocksucking” is generally viewed as something that only hetero women and gay men do, and would be “gay” for a hetero man to do, the term carries a lot of homophobic (because homophobic insults carry the implication that being homosexual is bad), transphobic (because it erases the existence of many trans women and the men who date them), and misogynistic (because it’s not “masculine”, and things which aren’t “masculine” are bad) baggage that isn’t present with the more generic “fucker”.

And yes, this is a website where people expect you to be careful with your language. There are a great many other websites out there where you’re free to throw around whatever pejoratives you wish. Using a defense that’s very similar to the one people use when asked to stop using ableist language probably won’t get you very far.

EDIT: Moreover, you don’t really see any widespread, common societal use of an equivalent term which would also describe men who perform oral sex on women. Curious, that.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@dslucia

You do, however, find widespread, disparaging terms for women who perform oral sex on women.

Starfury
Starfury
3 years ago

What dslucia said ^^

Also, I internalised the idea that fellatio was bad before I had even tried it based on the liberal use of that (and similar) as an insult.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

<== is now rather frantically trying to recall an insult based on heterosexual, PiV activity that does not involve money changing hands.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

I’m listening and learning even while people are telling me to go away. I understand the need to be careful about language and I understand what I did wrong.

But honestly “there are a great many sites where your ilk can go”? Are you serious? My intention was not pejorative. I’ve considered what I said and explained that and why I won’t say it again. If you feel that my choice of language is worse than the acts of someone who seemed to devote himself to horrible, harmful behaviour then knock yourself out.

I tend to think that the proof of a person is in their deeds. I read, I listen and I learn. I don’t threaten people or tell them which sites they’re allowed to visit.

I’m genuinely sorry, without the slightest caveat, that I was offensive. I will try not to do it again. I suppose this will be especially easy since according to you I’m no longer welcome around here.

It wasn’t my intent to offend anyone, I just wanted to highlight the fact that holy goodness RD was a horrible, horrible man. I thought that was what mattered.

Catalpa
Catalpa
3 years ago

Is using the word “fuck” mocking a sexual preference?

“Fuck” is a pretty generic term. It can refer to any number of sex acts, and is not specific to any particular orientation (aside from non-asexual folks, I guess, but some aces do choose to have sex, so not really even that). It’s more difficult to argue that a phrase is pejorative of a particular group when it’s something that people from multiple and various demographics are all known to do. Not so with “cocksucking”. (Although technically people of all manner of orientations and genders can engage in that, it’s certainly not the conventional understanding of the phrase.)

Shadowplay
3 years ago

From my own perspective – stick around. You apologised, know what were wrong and accept it – done. End of story.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
3 years ago

I think it helps to remember that, for a lot of people, Mammoth is a bit of an oasis.

The site does operate a bit on a ‘black ball veto’ principle. Generally speaking, even if something is only bothering one person, everyone else respects that and adapts accordingly. I really like that.

There’s loads of other spaces where you can be more frank or robust or whatever you want to call it. But there’s one place where people can feel moderately comfortable. In the grand scheme of things I don’t think that’s a great sacrifice.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Also, I internalised the idea that fellatio was bad before I had even tried it based on the liberal use of that (and similar) as an insult.

You know, I’ve always had a policy of not giving oral sex to a man unless I feel like I can trust him. That is, guys I’ve had an actual relationship with. Although I am perfectly willing to have casual PIV sex.

The reason for this is is that although I don’t personally believe giving oral sex is degrading, a whole lot of men do and will happily mock and denigrate women who give them blow jobs. The way many men talk about women who give them oral is way above and beyond the misogyny you even hear about women who have PIV with them.

I wonder if men (not so much feminist/feminist friendly men, but regular men) realize just how much sex they lose out on because of their insistence on performing toxic masculinity with each other by degregrading women who are willing to have sex. It just makes other women not want to do it, or not want to particular sex acts.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@wwth

You know, I’ve always had a policy of not giving oral sex to a man unless I feel like I can trust him.

Swap the sexes out and same here for both giving and recieving. Don’t know, oral just seems more intimate somehow.

dslucia
dslucia
3 years ago

@latsot:

But honestly “there are a great many sites where your ilk can go”? Are you serious? My intention was not pejorative. I’ve considered what I said and explained that and why I won’t say it again. If you feel that my choice of language is worse than the acts of someone who seemed to devote himself to horrible, harmful behaviour then knock yourself out.

I tend to think that the proof of a person is in their deeds. I read, I listen and I learn. I don’t threaten people or tell them which sites they’re allowed to visit.

That was a corollary with “this is a website where people expect you to be careful with your language”. Not telling you that you need to leave, but suggesting that getting defensive with people when they ask you to not use a certain term is perhaps not the best course of action to take, and that you’re very likely free to use it almost anywhere else you go; people come here in part understanding that they generally won’t need to see that from regular commenters.

Also, intentions aren’t magic. Sorry if I was just jumping on the dogpile, but I thought it worth explaining further precisely why some people might object to the term you chose to use (and, in fact, the one you settled on after). You may not mean a term in a pejorative manner, but that doesn’t automatically remove the pejorative associations it has due to its widespread use in society.

EDIT: In fact, I’m glad that you’re willing to take the criticisms in stride. By all means, I’m not suggesting that you shouldn’t continue visiting and commenting here.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Whatever ye Holy Christ rides is only worth mentioning if it’s a unicycle. I doubt any one of us is going to be banging him anytime soon.

To follow up on what Alan said, here’s my personal observation : it is by no means a safe space, because of the subject matter and because of the trolls. But it is the safest space, thanks to its regulars. I feel keeping it that way should be a priority, for all our sakes.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

@shadowplay

Thanks, I appreciate that, but nah. It’s hard to see a point in being part of a community that cares more about scoring points than accepting that someone is very much on their side having understood and accepted what they did wrong.

I’ll keep reading the blog because it is brilliant but I won’t comment again. Nobody’s loss.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

@ latsot:

Since I stew the first throne, I feel I should advise, please stop digging. That’s all anyone is asking.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

As for perjoratives in general…

http://monsterlegacy.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/vermithraxheadside22.jpg

Vermithrax Perjorative, both the best dragon AND the best perjorative!!

kupo
kupo
3 years ago

@latsot
This isn’t about scoring points. It’s about making our members who happen to suck cocks feel comfortable. Stop.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

As for specific perjoratives, why is that such a contentious minefield? Because society’s perjoratives, much like society’s humor, are very, VERY often rooted in mockery of those less powerful.

Words to mock weakness (which may be ableist in itself) often mock physical injury or disability

… to mock poor judgement often mock mental illness

… to mock, well, pretty much anything the speaker doesn’t like… often mock people of non-cis-non-hetero gender/sexual orientation

every freakin’ thing mocks women or femininity…

and so on, and so on and scooby-dooby-doo.

E.T.A. “ooooo, sha-sha… we got to live together…”

that seemed to be an appropriate addendum…

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

((I get way more long winded and pedantic than usual in this one, mea culpa. lastot, I’m not writing this to pile on or make you feel bad, and I’m sorry if it makes you feel that way. You just tripped. That’s okay, we all do.))

<3 lastot; I was a bit surprised by your reaction to this, because you've been here a long time and are a good egg.

Your use of the word "cocksucker" as a curse didn't surprise or phase me much. It's a good curse! It's a big, lumbering word, bumpy in the right places, rolls off the tongue. Has a good mouth feel.

All from an aural perspective of course.

Ahem. Anyways…

Others have pointed out why "cocksucker" is a bad insult in the same way as "gay" is a bad insult – it hurts people you don't intend to hurt. I'll leave that be, that's clear. Instead I want to point out something else. Not to chastise you, I'm not doing that! You’ve got a unique opportunity here, and I want to make sure you get the most out of it.

I’m about to say something that might sting a bit. You are reacting in much the same way as the reaction Rebecca Watson got for saying “Guys, don’t do that,” which kicked off Elevatorgate and all of that nonsense. I’m not saying that to say that you’re just as bad! because you aren’t just as bad as all that. I’m pointing out that there’s a congruity there, that part of your thought processes have been hijacked by your self-preservation processes.

Think back to the moment you read Pie’s complaint and request, the feelings you felt. Anger, perhaps; maybe confusion. Whatever those feelings were, those are the warning signs you have that you’re about to put your shields up. Those are the things that get in the way of your ability to learn and change.

I used to get defensive very easily; I still do. The last part of my name here is a reminder to myself to not do that.

When you feel the anger or confusion or panic rise, learn to force it back down, dissolve it, whatever. Learn to accept guilt and blame, even when you don’t think you did anything wrong. Taking in that measure of guilt-at-being-wrong will let the incompatible idea in past your walls. Later, when the moment has passed and your heart has cooled, you will be able to look at the idea with calmer eyes and evaluate it on its own merits.

Let the painful thing in, in its entirety; let it cut you as deeply as it can. Encourage the painful feelings, the guilt and the shame and the uncertainty. That’s the feeling of ossified beliefs softening, and is the only way that you’ll be able to grow. Crack your own bark and let new shoots sprout through.

<3

Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
Surplus to Requirements, Observer of the Vast Blight-Wing Enstupidation
3 years ago

@Shadowplay:

<== is now rather frantically trying to recall an insult based on heterosexual, PiV activity that does not involve money changing hands.

“Motherfucker” immediately springs to mind (if directed at a man), but that really just suggests moving the goalpost slightly to “heterosexual, PiV activity that does not involve money changing hands or incest”. Or dead bodies or wild or barnyard animals, one supposes.

There’s plenty based on masturbation, for what that’s worth…

And then there’s virgin-shaming, which is typically based on heterosexual, PiV activity not having occurred. And which some of the masturbation based insults are likely meant to imply, when coming from ignorant enough people.

cat
cat
3 years ago

latsot… i don’t generally comment here but you’re being SO embarrassing, i feel compelled to save you from yourself. i know i can’t, probably. but please, try to maybe not write whole missives on why you shouldn’t have to apologize while you’re in the middle of apologizing. that kinda takes the apology down a notch, don’t you think?
a few other things:
– intent is not everything. you didn’t mean to be offensive but you WERE. if you didn’t mean to step on my foot but you do, it still hurts me and you still need to stop.
-you’re sorry “without the slightest caveat” ?? uhh i’ve seen nothing but caveats for like 4 posts from you.
– “knock yourself out” = “SIGH! poor me, i guess i’ll just be persecuted needlessly like the martyr i am without complaining a lot, loudly, right now”
-“i read i listen i learn” = “GOLLYGOSH I REALLY DO MY BEST don’t be so hard on poor me!”

like, really. you’re doing that A LOT. try to just be like… “hey i get it, i’m sorry. let’s move on to the next actually relevant topic”

good luck buddy.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

Stop what? I am not doubling down on my intention to use the word “cocksucker”. I have made it perfectly clear that I understand why the word was hurtful. I have said several times that I won’t say it again and I hope I’ve made it clear that I meant no harm by it.

Intent isn’t magic and I might have done harm. I’m sincerely sorry if I have and I’ll do whatever I can to help. Just ask. Sincerely, if I’ve hurt you I will do everything I can to make it right.

Intent isn’t magic, but it’s worth something. My intent is fairly clear. I’m not digging, I’m not doubling down.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

@Surplus

Plenty on shaming, of course.

About the only “vanilla” level insult I can recall was a sergeant who used to dismiss persistant and aggrieved stupidity (of which there is shitloads when training a bunch of know-all 18-20 year olds) by giving the victim a withering look and saying “Ah, go fuck your missus.”

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

“Cocksucking” is not pejorative. “Holy cocksucking Christ” is and deliberately so. The “holy” and the “Christ” might give away the context. My using the phrase was a deliberate attempt to emphasise the statement I was making, which was about Dahl being an awful misogynist as is clear from the most cursory examination of anything he ever said or did.

We might as well rule out “fucking” as an insult because quite a lot of people like to fuck.

Doubling down.

I won’t say the word again here. Fair enough, I get that it hurts people and I don’t want to do that. But honestly, there’s a difference between using and mentioning a word. I was talking about a horrible person behaving horribly and it turns out that my use of a particular word was the most harmful thing?

For goodness’ sake.

Saying you won’t do it again, telling people they’re being unreasonable and even adding in a little dig at the end with “for goodness sake”

Fair enough, I was totally disparaging other people’s religious beliefs. AND I’D DO IT AGIAIN!!!!

But not here.

A sorry, not sorry.

I haven’t doubled down. I’ve said that I won’t use that particular word again here and that I’ll be more careful without caveat. I get to defend myself though, until it becomes tiresome, which is right about now.

Saying that you’ll stop without any caveats and then immediately giving a caveat. And why do you need to defend yourself? If you’d just said “sorry, I won’t use it again” there wouldn’t even be a fight. Is using cocksucking that big a deal? No one suspected you of ill intent until you started defending yourself.

Then even after all that, Shadowplay and Dslucia extended an olive branch to you and you slapped it away

Thanks, I appreciate that, but nah. It’s hard to see a point in being part of a community that cares more about scoring points than accepting that someone is very much on their side having understood and accepted what they did wrong.

I’ll keep reading the blog because it is brilliant but I won’t comment again. Nobody’s loss.

and accused everyone of scoring points without considering that they might have real reasons for objecting to the language.

It really doesn’t seem like anyone was ever out to get you. You just keep insisting that they are. That’s why people are telling you to stop digging.

Gaebolga
Gaebolga
3 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger wrote:

The reason for this is is that although I don’t personally believe giving oral sex is degrading, a whole lot of men do and will happily mock and denigrate women who give them blow jobs. The way many men talk about women who give them oral is way above and beyond the misogyny you even hear about women who have PIV with them.

Wow, really?

Not doubting you in the slightest, but I’ve never recognized that before (doubtless a function of male privilege). That’s really fucked up. And really counter-productive.

Thanks for educating me.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

Giving oral to a guy, for a woman, is roughly on par with bringing him a beer and a sandwich.

Shadowplay
3 years ago

Giving oral to a guy, for a woman, is roughly on par with bringing him a beer and a sandwich.

**Recalls the usual response to “make me a sandwich.”** 😛

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

What some of you see as embarrassing is plain sincerity. I do understand all your points and I didn’t argue against them in the first place. I’m not angry, I’m not embarrassed, I’m not panicking, I’m just sincere.

Please let me say for the final time:

1. I understand why the phrase “cocksucker” is offensive.
2. I don’t justify its use.
3. If I’ve hurt anyone, I’ll do whatever I can to help.

I used the term as a way of emphasizing a point, not as a means of attack. I understand perfectly well how it can be seen as an attack and – more importantly – as an expression of a status quo none of us want.

@Scildfreja: That’s rather hurtful. I was there – not in the actual elevator but in the building before it happened and in Rebecca’s talk the next day. I spent years defending the idea that guys just shouln’t do that and while I didn’t get a millionth of the shit she did, I got a fair amount. My family was targeted and I had to get the police involved. Please don’t tar me with that brush and don’t assume you know the slightest thing about me. Project all you like but you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Suit yourselves, I don’t support the status quo you seem to think I do, I’ve done quite a lot to overturn that sort of thinking over the last few years and I’ve tried to be a friend to everyone who has needed it.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Scild wasn’t calling you a misogynist or a harasser. She was pointing out the similarity in that the whole kerfuffle started because of a bad reaction on your part to be asked not to do something.

I’ll repeat myself because you’re not getting it. The issue isn’t that we don’t see that you’ve apologized. The issue isn’t that we think you’re an MRA troll. The issue is that every single apology and statement of good intent involves you telling people that they’re mean for having criticized, were unreasonable to ask you not to use the term, or accusations of point scoring or trying to drive you off.

Once again, all you had to do was say “sorry, I won’t use the term again” and just fucking drop it. It wasn’t a personal attack.

Oh, and this

I used the term as a way of emphasizing a point, not as a means of attack.

Is still doubling down. No one actually cares why you used the term or what you meant. The request was simply to stop using it.

I think it’s best you stop posting for an hour or so, come back and reread the thread and try to see where everyone is coming from. Because right now, you’re still being defensive and that’s making things worse. After you’ve calmed down a bit, you might see that the requests to drop the term were not done in an attacking way.

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
3 years ago

Misogynists have a fixation on oral sex. Actually, many simultaneous fixations.

They’re entitled to it. Also it makes women sluts. DO NOT perform oral on a woman. OR ON A MAN, THAT IS SO GAY ! Except when it’s not, like when it’s MGTOW bros just chilling and giving each other blowjobs. BUT NOT ON WOMEN, EW. Except to then guilt them into returning the favor. Still, giving oral to a woman is what cucks do.

They hate sex with a passion, and will suck the joy out of it for both their partners and themselves.

latsot
latsot
3 years ago

No, I’m done. I’m not your enemy and you’re piling on the wrong person. I have listened and learned. If only you could do the same.

flexitarian haruspex
flexitarian haruspex
3 years ago

@ WWTH

The reason for this is is that although I don’t personally believe giving oral sex is degrading, a whole lot of men do and will happily mock and denigrate women who give them blow jobs.

^this, so much. I actually am quite a happy cocksucker in the correct circumstances, but dudes who disrespect those willing to perform oral sex on them dig their own graves.

@ lolsot

I accept your apology and trust that you’re not actually a bad person for misjudging your audience.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I think it’s a domination thing. It’s a assumed that women don’t actually enjoy giving oral sex, so if a woman does it, it’s because the man has somehow gotten her to do it. Then there’s the symbolism of the man standing, the woman on her knees.

It’s not just in the manosphere. All over pop culture, women are depicted as giving oral sex only because she’s being dominated or because she has low self esteem and is desperate for male approval. As usual, manospherians just take the bullshit out there in the patriarchy and amplify it to its biggest extreme.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

No, I’m done. I’m not your enemy and you’re piling on the wrong person. I have listened and learned. If only you could do the same.

How many people have explicitly said they do not view you as an enemy or a bad person now? Five or six?

That’s why I suggested taking a break and rereading the thread to see the criticism was not that harsh.

But very well. You would prefer to martyr yourself. Have fun with that.

Dvärghundspossen
Dvärghundspossen
3 years ago

I don’t know how much these news have spread outside of Sweden, but there’s a lot of shit going down in the Swedish Academy (the body that awards the Nobel prize in literature) at the moment.
Horace Engdal, academy member and former secretary of the academy, has said a lot of shitty things in connection with this shit going down, and that’s made people bring up to light again some terrible shit he wrote in a collection of aphorisms (or supposed aphorisms) a few years ago. I quote: “Full penetration: Eternal victory for the man, eternal defeat for the woman”. He’s since doubled down on it and was like “but everyone knows women are made less valuable by having sex, I’m just stating what everyone knows!”. So yeah. There are definitely men out there who despise the women who have sex with them.

flexitarian haruspex
flexitarian haruspex
3 years ago

The worst part of all that nonsense is then women and others who enjoy giving blow jobs internalize that idea of domination/etc, and become reluctant to practice it on just any old lover for the sake of mutual enjoyment. It’s the most self-defeating kind of kink-shaming, since most dudes enjoy oral sex, but their idea of what it means to receive it ends up putting off people who would enjoy giving it.

Manospherians, shooting themselves in the foot since time imemorial.

Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
Weird (and tired of trumplings) Eddie
3 years ago

wwth wrote:

although I don’t personally believe giving oral sex is degrading, a whole lot of men do

I’m reminded of an incident from a while back where a man at a sporting event came upon a man dressed in the other team’s colors, passed out with his mouth open… the man’s response was to commit oral rape, as that was the ultimate insult

This also has been the case in several rape incidents involving intoxicated women as well.

Scildfreja Unnyðnes
Scildfreja Unnyðnes
3 years ago

@lastot, I’m sorry it was hurtful. It was hurtful. I know you’re a good guy because I’ve seen you post here many times and you’ve always been a calm, positive voice. I guess that’s why your reaction was so jarring and has all knotted up like this; it feels very much out of place.

I didn’t know you were there when that happened! I’m very much unsurprised that you spent all your time defending her, and I’m glad you did. You certainly didn’t deserve any of the hate they poured on you for that either. I don’t at all mean to conflate you with them, because the only similarities are that you reacted defensively to someone saying “please don’t do that.” Which everyone does, it’s an incredibly normal thing. Normal and wrong, but still very normal. So I’m sorry that struck a little close to home; I didn’t want an example that was as jarring as it ended up being.

Perhaps this is a better analogy: I know good people – honestly progressive, nice people – who use the words “cunt”, “fag”, and “gay” as slurs. They do this in an unconscious sort of a way because they can, because it’s not dangerous or hurtful for them. When they get called out for it, they say that they don’t mean it in a hurtful way, it’s just an insult. They get defensive.

The whole point of my post was to point out that the moment of knee-jerk defensiveness is a defense against being corrected – even if the correction is a good one. I know you care about rationality and coming to the right conclusions of things. The impulse to defend yourself is the enemy of reason, and it’s a nasty, insidious thing.

I’m sorry the analogy I used before stung, and I hope that you can forgive me for it. I’m not writing this to pile on to you, I’m trying to show you a tool for self-improvement and give you something positive from this mess. It’s done me worlds of good, and I think it will suit you well once you try it once or twice.

flexitarian haruspex
flexitarian haruspex
3 years ago

@ Weird Eddie

I’ve been reading/listening to a whole lotta books about true crime and the motivations of rapists/serial sexual murderers/etc. For rapists, sex is a weapon , therfore I would argue that using instances of rape doesn’t qualify in a discussion of consensual cocksucking. Not to say that society in general doesn’t take a dim view of fellatio and the people who perform it, but seriously, we weren’t talking about crime and victimization. That’s an extreme, and I counter with a virginal nun.

LittleLurker
LittleLurker
3 years ago

@Scild

Thank you for all you do here. Your explanations and your patience. I learn a lot from you. And you just demonstrated how to deal with apologising really gracefully, too. You always write these long, detailed replies and I want to tell you it’s really not wasted. It makes a difference. It helps, especially since you sometimes tell us about your own past difficulties, too. 🙂