By David Futrelle
Some straight guys like women who wear makeup. Others prefer the natural look. Still others think women are spineless, mindless consumerist c*nts trying to hide their ugly insides by painting their outsides.
Yes, I’ve been reading the Men Going Their Own Way subreddit again, where I ran across this totally normal and healthy and not-at-all-scary response to the fact that lots of women wear makeup.
Here’s the text in case that’s a bit hard to read:
Avyctes 50 points
I think they also set the bar for “not fat” really high. That way they can make women feel bad. “All you had to do is not be fat and you couldn’t even manage that, what’s wrong with you!?”
Yeah, looking at some of the women they’ve called fat, I think their definition of “obese” is “any woman over 115-20 lbs.,” maybe with a bit of leeway depending on height and whether the woman angers them in other ways.
Remember when manospherians were describing Emma Watson as fat? Yeah, they have a strange interpretation of the word.
Feministguy, Heaven’s Gate had the solution. Not suicide, the other thing they did.
Funnily enough, it wasn’t that long ago I was in an argument with a dude over at Mary Sue. His opinion was that it’s okay for women to be fat, because women get fat so easily because of hormones or something. But for a man to be fat is inexcusable. He explicitly said it’s easy for any man (also because of hormones or something) to look like Chris Evans in Captain America, so if a man is fat, that’s completely inexcusable and he should be shamed.
I kind of wish I could have introduced him to these MRA types.
I believe that it’s what LessWrongians call a “motte and bailey” argument: one which has a strong form and a weak form. The strong form is easy to defend but only includes a few cases (“Rebel Wilson is fat”); the weak form is hard to defend but includes all the cases they’d like to apply it to (“Any woman over 140lbs is fat.”)
When pressed, they can retreat to the strong form (“Are you saying that Rebel Wilson *isn’t* fat?”); and then when the pressure ceases, they can return to the weak form (“As I was saying, all women over 140lbs are fat.”)
Philosophers: Is there a proper learned form of this sort of argument?
@ EJ
T’was an actual philosopher who came up with the term. This is a nice jumping off point if you want to delve further.
http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/09/motte-and-bailey-doctrines/
Many people do this kind of thing when they want to defend some universal statement about action, human motivation or the like. Oscillate between a weak interpretation, used when you want to show that your claim is true, and a strong interpretation, used when you want to show that your claim is interesting.
A common example is when people try to argue that everyone always act in their self-interest. If you interpret “self-interest” so that anything I want to do is in my self-interest by definition, like, if I most of all want to lay down my life for some cause then by definition it is in my self-interest to do this, the claim becomes true, trivially so. But also completely uninteresting. If you interpret “self-interest” as that which is likely to make me happy, rich, get laid etc, the claim becomes highly controversial and provocative, but also quite obviously false. Even if people act in their self-interest in this more narrow sense a lot of the time, it’s pretty obvious that not every single person every single moment does so (and anyone who wants to claim that yes, every single person every single moment does so, would have the burden of proof on his side).
By flip-flopping between the two interpretations you can give the impression that you’ve discovered this dark secret of human nature.
Wow…I think I’ll come back when we’re not calling Rebel Wilson fat as if it’s a universally accepted fact.
Trigger warning for mild eating disorder discussion
I’ve noticed a lot of misogynists also have an arbitrary number and anyone who is heavier than it is fat. I was looking at some archives and Roosh said most men would rather die than have sex with a woman who weighs over 150. Which is just silly because different people can weigh the same and look completely different. And 150 is not that high of a number. I know I’ve had sex while weighing more than that and the men did not seem like they’d rather be dead than be there. I’m 5’5″ and I weighed around 150 when I was 16 or 17. I was an athlete, a size 6 and had an almost flat stomach. And it’s not like Roosh is the only man to think any woman over 150 is fat. I remember shortly before I became bulimic a guy friend said the same thing and it really fucked me up. I’m sure he said it assuming none of the women were over 150 because none of us would’ve qualified as fat to most people’s perceptions. I think men have no idea what women weigh because in books written by men every female character seems to be 5’6″ and either 110 lbs if she’s slender or 125 lbs if she’s voluptuous. Men really shouldn’t try to speculate about women’s weight. I mean, I don’t think anyone should speculate about anyone’s weight, but men guessing women’s just doesn’t ever come to anything good.
I don’t think most men who speculate about women’s weights are deliberately trying to be hurtful. But Roosh probably was. He said this on the Dr Oz show so his intent was so obviously to make any women over or close to 150 lbs feel self loathing. That shit pisses me off so much.
Thank you for that, kupo. I wasn’t thinking and I’m thankful that you called me out on it.
Dudes learn women’s measurements from erotica, ’cause the only way they feel they can interact with a woman is through sex.
(Yeah, that’s reductive and wrong, but I’m being reductive and wrong today. Find truth in wrongness.)
I’m slim by anyone’s standards and I remember an old professor at my former university saying (I seriously cannot remember at all why this was supposed to be relevant, what the general discussion was)
– But you can’t weigh more than 50 kg, right? (That’s 110 pounds).
I weigh 63 kg (139 pounds). So yeah. Waaaaay off.
Edit: After typing this I stopped again to think that uh, what was the general discussion? I just remember him guessing my weight and being waaaay off. But then I thought again and seriously? There cannot possibly be a context at the workplace where it would be relevant to guess a colleague’s weight.
I had a troubleshooting issue with a scale where we needed someone over a certain weight to test it but even then we just blanket emailed and asked for volunteers.
When interviewing to hire someone for one of those “I’ll Guess Your Weight” carnival games.
Checkmate.
😉
Got me, Gaebolga.
I mean, there are feminist arguments against makeup, and a lot of them have to do with how women are told (by corporate America) that they HAVE to wear makeup lest we be undesirable to the cishet menfolk.
(Others have to do with how racist the makeup industry is, but that’s intersectional feminism, and we can’t ‘splode their minds just yet with that one. Baby steps.)
But a lot of women feel empowered to wear makeup because it’s a difficult skill to master, and/or it makes them feel good about themselves to wear it, and/or they like the process of putting it on, etc. And that’s good too.
I mean, there’s always room for criticism and enjoyment of the industry that produces makeup and the products themselves respectively.
But honestly we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. If we don’t wear makeup, men think we’re uggos who don’t care about our appearance enough, if we do, then we’re lying harlots who are trying to catfish them. (Because a woman’s eyelid is naturally sparkly purple, don’cha know?)
Same shit, different day.
Some music to go with this post, Larry Gowan’s “Cosmetics.”
@Paradoxical Intention
“I mean, there are feminist arguments against makeup, and a lot of them have to do with how women are told (by corporate America) that they HAVE to wear makeup lest we be undesirable to the cishet menfolk.”
Yeah, I think a lot of feminists who choose to wear makeup go through at least a minor crisis at some point trying to figure out where they stand on this issue. I certainly did. On the one hand, makeup is fun and I like to wear it and experiment with it. But what if I only like it because the PATRIARCHY taught me to!? It used to give me a lot of anxiety.
A feminist friend really turned me around on it by putting it like this: people of all genders have enjoyed augmenting and decorating their bodies in various ways since time immemorial. It’s not abnormal human behaviour. But in our society, woman is “other”, and so since wearing makeup is coded feminine, it is subject to scrutiny, while the choice to not wear makeup, being “masculine” is seen as the default.
In other words, we ask “Why are you women wearing makeup, instead of going bare faced like normal people?” Instead of asking, “Why are you men so drab and boring looking, instead of taking pleasure in your appearance like normal people?”
Plus, it seems pretty obvious to me that if women ARE dressing to impress people, it’s certainly not straight men, at least not exclusively. Is it straight men that are buying the fashion magazines? Watching the makeup youtube videos? Talking and experimenting and enjoying fashion? No. Then why would I choose to do those things just to impress the people who explicitly show no interest in them? If I want to impress people, it’s usually other women who also have a sense of fashion and understand the thought and inspiration that went into my creation.
In my opinion, as someone who has lots of women in his family, I think the only thing women should care about is happiness and empowerment. If make up helps in that regard then so be it. Attractiveness ect is a bonus.
Men have no right to say whether a woman should or shouldnt wear make up. Its not their place to say
I realise I’m going back in the conversation a wee bit here, but I can’t believe that ‘you should pay for your porn’ is a controversial statement in this company. There have been long stretches in my life where I have only been able to eat and pay rent through making and selling porn, and while there is a huge issue with corporate corruption in the porn industry, the answer to that is emphatically not to pirate that content, but to be discerning about your purchasing patterns – especially since independent and small-scale creators consistently display much more diversity and healthier ideas about sex (especially in lesbian porn).
And when it comes to production costs – digital content production for porn is often high-risk and not particularly high reward, especially for small producers. I would say always try to buy from performer-owned businesses, but I’d also say most performers are if anything undercharging for the work put in. Even a small-scale, casual shoot for a 20-40 min video is physically challenging and time consuming if you want any kind of quality. Making a film with multiple actors and scenes has always taken at least a day of shooting and multiple days of editing – it’s unreasonable to devalue that work when the type of work is already so denigrated.
Even when I’ve had no income, I will either pay for porn or not watch it. It’s a bit of a muddy area to explain, because I very much don’t believe that sex work is intrinsically more humiliating or exploitative than other work, but I do feel like watching somebody in a vulnerable/sexual situation where they have explicitly not given permission for that (in that it’s for sale and you’re not paying the agreed price for watching it) is kind of skeevy.
Obviously I see the issue that mainstream corporate-led porn is exploitative, underpays its performers and skims more profit than is fair. But I think that if we’re going to address that situating, it needs to be by empowering performers and ethical companies who DO ask a fair (or sub-min-wage) price. Watching porn without paying DOES seem to me cheap and self-serving – if you feel that mainstream porn isn’t worth your money, support independent porn, if you don’t think any porn is, then don’t watch porn.
(this is possibly a little hypocritical, mind. I pirate film, TV and music on the regular. But I do feel the context is a little different, and not only because I work in porn – I also sell comics, and I’m a lot more chill about comics piracy. Ultimately I think my beef is that it’s not only possible but actively desirable to consume exclusively creator-run content in porn in a way that it isn’t so much with music, film or games. And when I play indie games or listen to indie music, I only do it if I can pay for it. I think it’s necessary to walk a line between rejecting overpriced and explosive creative practise and undervaluing creative work. Complicating the issue, though – I really don’t know why anyone buys mainstream porn when indie porn is so much more varied AND much more likely that your money goes direct to performers and crew rather than to studios and directors)
Thank you for giving an expert opinion, Dread Vampy. I have read writings by professional adult performers before, but I’m always grateful for the chance to learn more.
(Warning – Potential TMI)
If I may ask, what’s your attitude to amateur porn? Most of what I consume is strictly self-shot amateur stuff, partly because I’m worried about ethics and partly because I find it hotter. Is that a short-sighted or harmful attitude on my part? Am I encouraging bad behaviours?
(Apologies if this is a clueless question.)
Oh look. F-guy is still talking about himself, and his opinions.
Thank you for granting us permission to do as we please on this issue, F-guy. We shall continue to do just that, but now with the warm glow of knowing that it is OK by you.
Feministguy. You having women in your family does not give your opinion in this matter extra weight. Stop using women to shield you from criticism. If your opinions have merit they will stand on their own.
Also, women don’t need your permission to wear or not wear makeup. You’re being extremely patronizing by even assuming we give a shit what your personal opinion on the matter is. If you have new information to contribute, by all means do. But men letting us know how they feel about our choices about our bodies is nothing new.
@kupo
I never said they did. Women can wear what they want , where they want.